The sinking ship
 

On Sep 16, 4:09*pm, Andre Lieven wrote:
On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote:

SNIP

Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection.
After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from
middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring
disconnect from the real lives of the American people.

With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case
of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the
line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life."

Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty.

No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working
30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with
doing.

Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US,
thats for sure.

For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years
probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets
as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after
several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid
off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible.
ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens
a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck.
The land value goes into total assets, you see.

Then, if you have a two person income....

Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant
told them "you're rich".

Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are
hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me.

It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of
economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his
immediate family.

Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain
as well.


Not to
mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich"
lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and
don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or
spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past
50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's
how they got to be that way.

Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/
position in the US *middle class*.

I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it
isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving
them. Not that I mind.

I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term
portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with
inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20-
something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising
costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of
places) over the past 20 or so years.

Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank
accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on
hand.

Ibid.

Again you agree with me. Thank you.

Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers.
Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have
skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard.

I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their
building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes,
that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust
in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along
and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go
over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones
that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the
expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance,
payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that
work there, as well as for themselves their own families.

All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live
large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so
much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is
often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and
growing.

Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting
out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get
to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke
up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30
years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their
house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off.

So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending
on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable
car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you
can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to
reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of
that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where
housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then
we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their
tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed
up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as
how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work
involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't
be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the
government, etc.

None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in
setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level.

As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an
illogical mark for gov't policy.

McCain seems to acknowledge that.

McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent.

Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with.

Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop
prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a
couple million worth of land.

Obama's in the same club but doesn't.

Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ?
Thats a Good Thing for Obama.

No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while
trying to prove me wrong.

Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it.
That's the point and that's the truth.

Andre

The sinking ship
 

On Sep 16, 10:39*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:
On Sep 16, 4:09*pm, Andre Lieven wrote:



On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote:

SNIP

Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection.
After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from
middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring
disconnect from the real lives of the American people.

With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case
of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the
line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life."

Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty.

No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working
30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with
doing.

Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US,
thats for sure.

For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years
probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets
as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after
several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid
off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible.
ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens
a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck.
The land value goes into total assets, you see.

Then, if you have a two person income....

Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant
told them "you're rich".

Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are
hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me.

It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of
economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his
immediate family.

Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain
as well.



Not to
mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich"
lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and
don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or
spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past
50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's
how they got to be that way.

Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/
position in the US *middle class*.

I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it
isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving
them. Not that I mind.

I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term
portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with
inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20-
something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising
costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of
places) over the past 20 or so years.

Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank
accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on
hand.

Ibid.

Again you agree with me. Thank you.

Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers.
Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have
skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard.

I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their
building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes,
that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust
in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along
and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go
over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones
that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the
expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance,
payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that
work there, as well as for themselves their own families.

All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live
large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so
much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is
often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and
growing.

Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting
out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get
to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke
up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30
years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their
house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off.



So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending
on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable
car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you
can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to
reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of
that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where
housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then
we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their
tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed
up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as
how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work
involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't
be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the
government, etc.

None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in
setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level.

As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an
illogical mark for gov't policy.

McCain seems to acknowledge that.

McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent.

Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with.

Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop
prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a
couple million worth of land.

Obama's in the same club but doesn't.

Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ?
Thats a Good Thing for Obama.

No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while
trying to prove me wrong.

Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it.
That's the point and that's the truth.

Andre

Considering he signed a pre-nup, McSlime is really, really stupid to
diss his wife in public. She not only has the money and is picky about
yours, mine, and ours, if he doesn't win, or even if he does and is
dumb, could be just another ex Navy fighter jock in Pensacola
wandering the beach going, 'My friends, I used to have it all....'

The sinking ship
 

On Sep 16, 11:39*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:
On Sep 16, 4:09*pm, Andre Lieven wrote:



On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote:

SNIP

Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection.
After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from
middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring
disconnect from the real lives of the American people.

With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case
of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the
line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life."

Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty.

No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working
30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with
doing.

Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US,
thats for sure.

For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years
probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets
as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after
several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid
off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible.
ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens
a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck.
The land value goes into total assets, you see.

Then, if you have a two person income....

Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant
told them "you're rich".

Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are
hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me.

It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of
economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his
immediate family.

Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain
as well.



Not to
mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich"
lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and
don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or
spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past
50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's
how they got to be that way.

Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/
position in the US *middle class*.

I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it
isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving
them. Not that I mind.

I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term
portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with
inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20-
something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising
costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of
places) over the past 20 or so years.

Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank
accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on
hand.

Ibid.

Again you agree with me. Thank you.

Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers.
Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have
skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard.

I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their
building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes,
that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust
in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along
and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go
over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones
that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the
expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance,
payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that
work there, as well as for themselves their own families.

All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live
large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so
much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is
often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and
growing.

Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting
out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get
to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke
up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30
years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their
house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off.



So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending
on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable
car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you
can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to
reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of
that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where
housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then
we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their
tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed
up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as
how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work
involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't
be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the
government, etc.

None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in
setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level.

As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an
illogical mark for gov't policy.

McCain seems to acknowledge that.

McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent.

Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with.

Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop
prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a
couple million worth of land.

Obama's in the same club but doesn't.

Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ?
Thats a Good Thing for Obama.

No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while
trying to prove me wrong.

Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it.
That's the point and that's the truth.

Andre

Might find that stock broker or advisor in the unemployment line.

The sinking ship
 

On Sep 16, 11:35*pm, "Tazmanian Devil" wrote:
"David E. Powell" wrote in ...
On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote:

SNIP

Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection..
After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from
middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring
disconnect from the real lives of the American people.

With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case
of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the
line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Not to
mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich"
lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and
don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or
spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past
50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's
how they got to be that way.

Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank
accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on
hand.

So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending
on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable
car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you
can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to
reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of
that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where
housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then
we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their
tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed
up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as
how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work
involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't
be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the
government, etc.

McCain seems to acknowledge that. Obama's in the same club but
doesn't.

See? It doesn't take Cindy McCain's kind of money to make you out of touch.
Mr. $5M poormouth here probably tips waitresses at 10% for fear that any
more would jeapardize his retirement.

He's right about one thing in today's America though: If you're not a
millionaire, abject poverty is only a medical bill or natural disaster away.

And if you are a millionaire and that guy from Lehman Brothers
convinced you that the place to make sure your money was safe for the
future was to buy a real estate trust....and invest in Lehman Brothers
and other investment bank stocks.

The sinking ship
 

On Sep 16, 11:39 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:
On Sep 16, 4:09 pm, Andre Lieven wrote:

On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote:

SNIP

Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection.
After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from
middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring
disconnect from the real lives of the American people.

With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case
of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the
line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life."

Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty.

No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working
30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with
doing.

Well under 4% of all US people achieve that number, so any suggestion
that this is "middle class"is, well, insane.

Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US,
thats for sure.

For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years
probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets
as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after
several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid
off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible.
ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens
a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck.
The land value goes into total assets, you see.

Which still fails to get 96%+ of all US people into that level, so,
once
again, this is insane excuse mongering for a rich moron's idiot
statement.

Then, if you have a two person income....

You just have NO clue at all, do you ? Most 2 income families NEED
that second income just to pay the bills.

Have you seen the current housing crisis lately ?

Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant
told them "you're rich".

Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are
hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me.

Wrong. That accountant and you are using different levels.

By YOUR count, my father in law isn't even middle class.

It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of
economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his
immediate family.

Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain
as well.

Empty assertion. Meaningless twaddle.

Not to
mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich"
lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and
don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or
spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past
50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's
how they got to be that way.

Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/
position in the US *middle class*.

I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it
isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving
them. Not that I mind.

Since you're the one Moving The Goalposts, you can then play
with your Straw Whores all you want; Neither has any bearing on
what I wrote, correcting both your and McBush's errors.

I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term
portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with
inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20-
something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising
costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of
places) over the past 20 or so years.

Condescending arrogance noted. Again, none of which addresses my
corrections of your and McBush's errors.

I also note that you, again, wished to shift onto ME the task of
proving YOUR and McBush's erroneous claims.

Pass: Do your own homework, monkey boy.

Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank
accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on
hand.

Ibid.

Again you agree with me. Thank you.

No, and at this point, I have to wonder at your basic reading
abilities.

Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers.
Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have
skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard.

Yes, NJ is loaded with farms... Moron.

I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their
building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes,
that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust
in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along
and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go
over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones
that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the
expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance,
payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that
work there, as well as for themselves their own families.

Now you're trying to conflate *gross* assets with *net* assets.

Go talk with any competant tax and asset management advisor as
to the basic error that that ignorance leads to...

All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live
large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so
much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is
often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and
growing.

Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting
out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get
to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke
up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30
years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their
house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off.

IOW, you agree with ME, in the fact that less than 4% of all US people
get to such a financial level.

So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending
on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable
car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you
can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to
reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of
that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where
housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then
we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their
tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed
up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as
how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work
involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't
be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the
government, etc.

None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in
setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level.

As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an
illogical mark for gov't policy.

Lying about what I have said is a sure sign of Bushism on your part.

I quite disagree with any idiot notion that $5 Mil in assets makes
one middle class.

McCain seems to acknowledge that.

McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent.

Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with.

More lies from you.

Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop
prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a
couple million worth of land.

A "couple million worth of land" ISN'T FIVE million. Duh, you just
*flunked Basic Arithmetic*.

But then, so did the Moron Bush Administration. So, you're in
plenty of company of morons.

Obama's in the same club but doesn't.

Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ?
Thats a Good Thing for Obama.

No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while
trying to prove me wrong.

Massive Projection

Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it.

What, he didn't even know how many houses he owns. Most "middle
class" people are pretty clear about that number: 1.

That's the point and that's the truth.

Wrong on both factless claims.

Andre

SPAM: Wafa crossposting bullshit...
 

On Sep 22, 3:29*pm, Andre Lieven wrote:
On Sep 16, 11:39 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:





On Sep 16, 4:09 pm, Andre Lieven wrote:

On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote:

SNIP

Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection.
After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from
middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring
disconnect from the real lives of the American people.

With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case
of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the
line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life."

Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty.

No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working
30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with
doing.

Well under 4% of all US people achieve that number, so any suggestion
that this is "middle class"is, well, insane.

Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US,
thats for sure.

For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years
probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets
as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after
several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid
off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible.
ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens
a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck.
The land value goes into total assets, you see.

Which still fails to get 96%+ of all US people into that level, so,
once
again, this is insane excuse mongering for a rich moron's idiot
statement.

Then, if you have a two person income....

You just have NO clue at all, do you ? Most 2 income families NEED
that second income just to pay the bills.

Have you seen the current housing crisis lately ?

Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant
told them "you're rich".

Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are
hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me.

Wrong. That accountant and you are using different levels.

By YOUR count, my father in law isn't even middle class.

It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of
economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his
immediate family.

Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain
as well.

Empty assertion. Meaningless twaddle.

Not to
mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich"
lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and
don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or
spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past
50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's
how they got to be that way.

Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/
position in the US *middle class*.

I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it
isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving
them. Not that I mind.

Since you're the one Moving The Goalposts, you can then play
with your Straw Whores all you want; Neither has any bearing on
what I wrote, correcting both your and McBush's errors.

I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term
portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with
inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20-
something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising
costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of
places) over the past 20 or so years.

Condescending arrogance noted. Again, none of which addresses my
corrections of your and McBush's errors.

I also note that you, again, wished to shift onto ME the task of
proving YOUR and McBush's erroneous claims.

Pass: Do your own homework, monkey boy.

Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank
accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on
hand.

Ibid.

Again you agree with me. Thank you.

No, and at this point, I have to wonder at your basic reading
abilities.

Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers.
Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have
skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard.

Yes, NJ is loaded with farms... Moron.

I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their
building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes,
that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust
in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along
and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go
over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones
that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the
expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance,
payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that
work there, as well as for themselves their own families.

Now you're trying to conflate *gross* assets with *net* assets.

Go talk with any competant tax and asset management advisor as
to the basic error that that ignorance leads to...

All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live
large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so
much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is
often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and
growing.

Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting
out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get
to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke
up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30
years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their
house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off.

IOW, you agree with ME, in the fact that less than 4% of all US people
get to such a financial level.





So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending
on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable
car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you
can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to
reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of
that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where
housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then
we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their
tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed
up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as
how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work
involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't
be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the
government, etc.

None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in
setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level.

As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an
illogical mark for gov't policy.

Lying about what I have said is a sure sign of Bushism on your part.

I quite disagree with any idiot notion that $5 Mil in assets makes
one middle class.

McCain seems to acknowledge that.

McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent.

Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with.

More lies from you.

Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop
prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a
couple million worth of land.

A "couple million worth of land" ISN'T FIVE million. Duh, you just
*flunked Basic Arithmetic*.

But then, so did the Moron Bush Administration. So, you're in
plenty of company of morons.

Obama's in the same club but doesn't.

Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ?
Thats a Good Thing for Obama.

No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while
trying to prove me wrong.

Massive Projection

Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it.

What, he didn't even know how many houses he owns. Most "middle
class" people are pretty clear about that number: 1.

That's the point and that's the truth.

Wrong on both factless claims.

Andre- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

SPAM: Wafa crossposting bullshit...
 

On Sep 22, 3:38*pm, wrote:
On Sep 22, 3:29*pm, Andre Lieven wrote:


so you repeated the entire post to get a one-liner in showing you
don't want to play?

SPAM: Wafa crossposting bullshit...
 

On Sep 22, 3:43*pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
On Sep 22, 3:38*pm, wrote:

On Sep 22, 3:29*pm, Andre Lieven wrote:

so you repeated the entire post to get a one-liner in showing you
don't want to play?

Oh no.. did I offend you? Just stop cross posting your bull**** here
and you won't need to scold me.. Look out, I might top post too...
Ohhhhh , maybe I misspelled a word too.. pathetic. Why is it you guys
need internet sockpuppet victories? Forget it, don't need your you
tube response....