|
The sinking ship
There is nothing wrong with being happily stinking rich and utterly
detached. Nothing, that is, unless you make criticizing your political opponent as "elitist" and "out of touch" a centerpiece of your campaign. Rick Davis, speaking on behalf of his $100 million man John McCain, earlier this month offered the latest formulation of Barack Obama as an effete, aloof denizen of the upper class: .. "Only celebrities like Barack Obama go to the gym three times a day, demand 'MET-RX chocolate roasted-peanut protein bars and bottles of a hard-to-find organic brew - Black Forest Berry Honest Tea' and worry about the price of arugula." .. Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. .. For starters, McCain in April declared that there had been "great progress economically" during the Bush years. On more than one occasion, he diagnosed Americans' concerns over the dismal U.S. economy as "psychological." (Phil Gramm, McCain's close friend and adviser supposedly excommunicated over his "whiners" remarks, was back with the campaign last week.) McCain, a man who owns eight homes nationwide, in March lectured Americans facing foreclosure that they ought to be "doing what is necessary -- working a second job, skipping a vacation, and managing their budgets -- to make their payments on time." And when all else fails, McCain told the people of the economically devastated regions in Martin County, Kentucky and Youngstown, Ohio, there's always eBay. In his defense, McCain's shocking tone-deafness may just be a matter of perspective. When you're as well off as he is, anything below a $5 million income (a figure exceeding that earned on average by the top 0.1% of Americans) seems middle class. *The $100 Million Man* Courtesy of his wife Cindy's beer distribution fortune (one her late father apparently chose not to share with her half-sister Kathleen), the McCains are worth well over $100 million. (In the two-page tax summary she eventually released to the public, Cindy McCain reported another $6 million in 2006.) As Salon reported back in 2000, the second Mrs. McCain's millions were essential in launching her husband's political career. Unsurprisingly, the Weekly Standard's Matthew Continetti, who four years ago called Theresa Heinz-Kerry a "sugar mommy," has been silent on the topic of Cindy McCain. *The Joys of (Eight) Home Ownership* While fellow adulterer John Edwards was pilloried for his mansion, John McCain's eight homes around the country have received little notice or criticism. His properties include a 10 acre lake-side Sedona estate, euphemistically called a "cabin" by the McCain campaign, and a home featured in Architectural Digest. The one featuring "remote control window coverings" was recently put up for sale. Still, their formidable resources did not prevent the McCains from failing to pay taxes on a tony La Jolla, California condo used by Cindy's aged aunt. *The Anheuser-Busch Windfall* As it turns out, the beauty of globalization is in the eye of the beholder. While John McCain apparently played a critical role in facilitating DHL's takeover of Airborne (and with it, the looming loss of 8,000 jobs in Wilmington, Ohio), Cindy McCain is set to earn a staggering multi-million dollar pay-day from the acquisition of Anheuser-Busch by the Belgian beverage giant, In Bev. As the Wall Street Journal reported in July, Mrs. McCain runs the third largest Anheuser-Busch distributorship in the nation, and owns between $2.5 and $5 million in the company's stock. Amazingly, while Missouri's politicians of both parties lined up to try to block the sale, John McCain held a fundraiser in the Show Me State even as the In Bev deal was being finalized. *McCain's $370,000 Personal Tax Break* Earlier this year, the Center for American Progress analyzed John McCain's tax proposals. The conclusion? McCain's plan is radically more regressive than even that of President Bush, delivering 58% of its benefits to the wealthiest 1% of American taxpayers. McCain's born-again support for the Bush tax cuts has one additional bonus for Mr. Straight Talk: the McCains would save an estimated $373,000 a year. *Paying Off $225,000 Credit Card Debt - Priceless* That massive windfall from his own tax plan will come in handy for John McCain. As was reported in June, the McCains were carrying over $225,000 in credit card debt. The American Express card - don't leave your homes without it. *Charity Begins at Home* As Harpers documented earlier this year, the McCains are true believers in the old saying that charity begins at home: .. Between 2001 and 2006, McCain contributed roughly $950,000 to [their] foundation. That accounted for all of its listed income other than for $100 that came from an anonymous donor. During that same period, the McCain foundation made contributions of roughly $1.6 million. More than $500,000 went to his kids' private schools, most of which was donated when his children were attending those institutions. So McCain apparently received major tax deductions for supporting elite schools attended by his children. .. Ironically, the McCain campaign last week blasted Barack Obama for having attended a private school in Hawaii on scholarship. That attack came just weeks after John McCain held an event at his old prep school, Episcopal High, an institution where fees now top $38,000 a year. *Private Jet Setters* As the New York Times detailed back in April, John McCain enjoyed the use of his wife's private jet for his campaign, courtesy of election law loopholes he helped craft. Despite the controversy, McCain continued to use Cindy's corporate jet. For her part, Cindy McCain says that even with skyrocketing fuel costs, "in Arizona the only way to get around the state is by small private plane." *Help on the Homefront* In these tough economic times, the McCains are able to stretch their household budget. As the AP reported in April, "McCain reported paying $136,572 in wages to household employees in 2007. Aides say the McCains pay for a caretaker for a cabin in Sedona, Ariz., child care for their teenage daughter, and a personal assistant for Cindy McCain." *Well-Heeled in $520 Shoes* If clothes make the man, then John McCain has it made. As Huffington Post noted in July, "He has worn a pair of $520 black leather Ferragamo shoes on every recent campaign stop - from a news conference with the Dalai Lama to a supermarket visit in Bethlehem, PA." It is altogether fitting that McCain wore the golden loafers during a golf outing with President George H.W. Bush in which he rode around in cart displaying the sign, "Property of Bush #41. Hands Off." |
The sinking ship
On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote:
There is nothing wrong with being happily stinking rich and utterly detached. Nothing, that is, unless you make criticizing your political opponent as "elitist" and "out of touch" a centerpiece of your campaign. Rick Davis, speaking on behalf of his $100 million man John McCain, earlier this month offered the latest formulation of Barack Obama as an effete, aloof denizen of the upper class: . "Only celebrities like Barack Obama go to the gym three times a day, demand 'MET-RX chocolate roasted-peanut protein bars and bottles of a hard-to-find organic brew - Black Forest Berry Honest Tea' and worry about the price of arugula." . Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. . For starters, McCain in April declared that there had been "great progress economically" during the Bush years. On more than one occasion, he diagnosed Americans' concerns over the dismal U.S. economy as "psychological." (Phil Gramm, McCain's close friend and adviser supposedly excommunicated over his "whiners" remarks, was back with the campaign last week.) McCain, a man who owns eight homes nationwide, in March lectured Americans facing foreclosure that they ought to be "doing what is necessary -- working a second job, skipping a vacation, and managing their budgets -- to make their payments on time." And when all else fails, McCain told the people of the economically devastated regions in Martin County, Kentucky and Youngstown, Ohio, there's always eBay. In his defense, McCain's shocking tone-deafness may just be a matter of perspective. When you're as well off as he is, anything below a $5 million income (a figure exceeding that earned on average by the top 0.1% of Americans) seems middle class. *The $100 Million Man* Courtesy of his wife Cindy's beer distribution fortune (one her late father apparently chose not to share with her half-sister Kathleen), the McCains are worth well over $100 million. (In the two-page tax summary she eventually released to the public, Cindy McCain reported another $6 million in 2006.) As Salon reported back in 2000, the second Mrs. McCain's millions were essential in launching her husband's political career. Unsurprisingly, the Weekly Standard's Matthew Continetti, who four years ago called Theresa Heinz-Kerry a "sugar mommy," has been silent on the topic of Cindy McCain. *The Joys of (Eight) Home Ownership* While fellow adulterer John Edwards was pilloried for his mansion, John McCain's eight homes around the country have received little notice or criticism. His properties include a 10 acre lake-side Sedona estate, euphemistically called a "cabin" by the McCain campaign, and a home featured in Architectural Digest. The one featuring "remote control window coverings" was recently put up for sale. Still, their formidable resources did not prevent the McCains from failing to pay taxes on a tony La Jolla, California condo used by Cindy's aged aunt. *The Anheuser-Busch Windfall* As it turns out, the beauty of globalization is in the eye of the beholder. While John McCain apparently played a critical role in facilitating DHL's takeover of Airborne (and with it, the looming loss of 8,000 jobs in Wilmington, Ohio), Cindy McCain is set to earn a staggering multi-million dollar pay-day from the acquisition of Anheuser-Busch by the Belgian beverage giant, In Bev. As the Wall Street Journal reported in July, Mrs. McCain runs the third largest Anheuser-Busch distributorship in the nation, and owns between $2.5 and $5 million in the company's stock. Amazingly, while Missouri's politicians of both parties lined up to try to block the sale, John McCain held a fundraiser in the Show Me State even as the In Bev deal was being finalized. *McCain's $370,000 Personal Tax Break* Earlier this year, the Center for American Progress analyzed John McCain's tax proposals. The conclusion? McCain's plan is radically more regressive than even that of President Bush, delivering 58% of its benefits to the wealthiest 1% of American taxpayers. McCain's born-again support for the Bush tax cuts has one additional bonus for Mr. Straight Talk: the McCains would save an estimated $373,000 a year. *Paying Off $225,000 Credit Card Debt - Priceless* That massive windfall from his own tax plan will come in handy for John McCain. As was reported in June, the McCains were carrying over $225,000 in credit card debt. The American Express card - don't leave your homes without it. *Charity Begins at Home* As Harpers documented earlier this year, the McCains are true believers in the old saying that charity begins at home: . Between 2001 and 2006, McCain contributed roughly $950,000 to [their] foundation. That accounted for all of its listed income other than for $100 that came from an anonymous donor. During that same period, the McCain foundation made contributions of roughly $1.6 million. More than $500,000 went to his kids' private schools, most of which was donated when his children were attending those institutions. So McCain apparently received major tax deductions for supporting elite schools attended by his children. . Ironically, the McCain campaign last week blasted Barack Obama for having attended a private school in Hawaii on scholarship. That attack came just weeks after John McCain held an event at his old prep school, Episcopal High, an institution where fees now top $38,000 a year. *Private Jet Setters* As the New York Times detailed back in April, John McCain enjoyed the use of his wife's private jet for his campaign, courtesy of election law loopholes he helped craft. Despite the controversy, McCain continued to use Cindy's corporate jet. For her part, Cindy McCain says that even with skyrocketing fuel costs, "in Arizona the only way to get around the state is by small private plane." *Help on the Homefront* In these tough economic times, the McCains are able to stretch their household budget. As the AP reported in April, "McCain reported paying $136,572 in wages to household employees in 2007. Aides say the McCains pay for a caretaker for a cabin in Sedona, Ariz., child care for their teenage daughter, and a personal assistant for Cindy McCain." *Well-Heeled in $520 Shoes* If clothes make the man, then John McCain has it made. As Huffington Post noted in July, "He has worn a pair of $520 black leather Ferragamo shoes on every recent campaign stop - from a news conference with the Dalai Lama to a supermarket visit in Bethlehem, PA." It is altogether fitting that McCain wore the golden loafers during a golf outing with President George H.W. Bush in which he rode around in cart displaying the sign, "Property of Bush #41. Hands Off." The Dems throw a $28,000/plate dinner for Obama and then claim to be the party of the common man? I cannot afford to be a Dem. |
The sinking ship
On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote: On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty. Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US, thats for sure. Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant told them "you're rich". It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his immediate family. Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/ position in the US *middle class*. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. Ibid. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level. McCain seems to acknowledge that. McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ? Thats a Good Thing for Obama. Andre |
The sinking ship
Andre Lieven wrote:
On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell" wrote: On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty. Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US, thats for sure. Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant told them "you're rich". It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his immediate family. Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/ position in the US *middle class*. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. Ibid. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level. McCain seems to acknowledge that. McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ? Thats a Good Thing for Obama. Andre Indeed, Obama earned what money he has through his jobs and his books. In other words, from his own work. McCain married money. |
The sinking ship
On Sep 16, 12:28*pm, wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: There is nothing wrong with being happily stinking rich and utterly detached. Nothing, that is, unless you make criticizing your political opponent as "elitist" and "out of touch" a centerpiece of your campaign.. Rick Davis, speaking on behalf of his $100 million man John McCain, earlier this month offered the latest formulation of Barack Obama as an effete, aloof denizen of the upper class: . "Only celebrities like Barack Obama go to the gym three times a day, demand 'MET-RX chocolate roasted-peanut protein bars and bottles of a hard-to-find organic brew - Black Forest Berry Honest Tea' and worry about the price of arugula." . Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection.. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. . For starters, McCain in April declared that there had been "great progress economically" during the Bush years. On more than one occasion, he diagnosed Americans' concerns over the dismal U.S. economy as "psychological." (Phil Gramm, McCain's close friend and adviser supposedly excommunicated over his "whiners" remarks, was back with the campaign last week.) McCain, a man who owns eight homes nationwide, in March lectured Americans facing foreclosure that they ought to be "doing what is necessary -- working a second job, skipping a vacation, and managing their budgets -- to make their payments on time." And when all else fails, McCain told the people of the economically devastated regions in Martin County, Kentucky and Youngstown, Ohio, there's always eBay. In his defense, McCain's shocking tone-deafness may just be a matter of perspective. When you're as well off as he is, anything below a $5 million income (a figure exceeding that earned on average by the top 0.1% of Americans) seems middle class. *The $100 Million Man* Courtesy of his wife Cindy's beer distribution fortune (one her late father apparently chose not to share with her half-sister Kathleen), the McCains are worth well over $100 million. (In the two-page tax summary she eventually released to the public, Cindy McCain reported another $6 million in 2006.) As Salon reported back in 2000, the second Mrs. McCain's millions were essential in launching her husband's political career. Unsurprisingly, the Weekly Standard's Matthew Continetti, who four years ago called Theresa Heinz-Kerry a "sugar mommy," has been silent on the topic of Cindy McCain. *The Joys of (Eight) Home Ownership* While fellow adulterer John Edwards was pilloried for his mansion, John McCain's eight homes around the country have received little notice or criticism. His properties include a 10 acre lake-side Sedona estate, euphemistically called a "cabin" by the McCain campaign, and a home featured in Architectural Digest. The one featuring "remote control window coverings" was recently put up for sale. Still, their formidable resources did not prevent the McCains from failing to pay taxes on a tony La Jolla, California condo used by Cindy's aged aunt. *The Anheuser-Busch Windfall* As it turns out, the beauty of globalization is in the eye of the beholder. While John McCain apparently played a critical role in facilitating DHL's takeover of Airborne (and with it, the looming loss of 8,000 jobs in Wilmington, Ohio), Cindy McCain is set to earn a staggering multi-million dollar pay-day from the acquisition of Anheuser-Busch by the Belgian beverage giant, In Bev. As the Wall Street Journal reported in July, Mrs. McCain runs the third largest Anheuser-Busch distributorship in the nation, and owns between $2.5 and $5 million in the company's stock. Amazingly, while Missouri's politicians of both parties lined up to try to block the sale, John McCain held a fundraiser in the Show Me State even as the In Bev deal was being finalized. *McCain's $370,000 Personal Tax Break* Earlier this year, the Center for American Progress analyzed John McCain's tax proposals. The conclusion? McCain's plan is radically more regressive than even that of President Bush, delivering 58% of its benefits to the wealthiest 1% of American taxpayers. McCain's born-again support for the Bush tax cuts has one additional bonus for Mr. Straight Talk: the McCains would save an estimated $373,000 a year. *Paying Off $225,000 Credit Card Debt - Priceless* That massive windfall from his own tax plan will come in handy for John McCain. As was reported in June, the McCains were carrying over $225,000 in credit card debt. The American Express card - don't leave your homes without it. *Charity Begins at Home* As Harpers documented earlier this year, the McCains are true believers in the old saying that charity begins at home: . Between 2001 and 2006, McCain contributed roughly $950,000 to [their] foundation. That accounted for all of its listed income other than for $100 that came from an anonymous donor. During that same period, the McCain foundation made contributions of roughly $1.6 million. More than $500,000 went to his kids' private schools, most of which was donated when his children were attending those institutions. So McCain apparently received major tax deductions for supporting elite schools attended by his children. . Ironically, the McCain campaign last week blasted Barack Obama for having attended a private school in Hawaii on scholarship. That attack came just weeks after John McCain held an event at his old prep school, Episcopal High, an institution where fees now top $38,000 a year. *Private Jet Setters* As the New York Times detailed back in April, John McCain enjoyed the use of his wife's private jet for his campaign, courtesy of election law loopholes he helped craft. Despite the controversy, McCain continued to use Cindy's corporate jet. For her part, Cindy McCain says that even with skyrocketing fuel costs, "in Arizona the only way to get around the state is by small private plane." *Help on the Homefront* In these tough economic times, the McCains are able to stretch their household budget. As the AP reported in April, "McCain reported paying $136,572 in wages to household employees in 2007. Aides say the McCains pay for a caretaker for a cabin in Sedona, Ariz., child care for their teenage daughter, and a personal assistant for Cindy McCain." *Well-Heeled in $520 Shoes* If clothes make the man, then John McCain has it made. As Huffington Post noted in July, "He has worn a pair of $520 black leather Ferragamo shoes on every recent campaign stop - from a news conference with the Dalai Lama to a supermarket visit in Bethlehem, PA." It is altogether fitting that McCain wore the golden loafers during a golf outing with President George H.W. Bush in which he rode around in cart displaying the sign, "Property of Bush #41. Hands Off." The Dems throw a $28,000/plate dinner for Obama and then claim to be the party of the common man? I cannot afford to be a Dem. Really? Do you have 7 (minimum) houses? Does your wife wear $300,000 outfits to conventions? Yep, that's real middle-class America, isn't it? |
The sinking ship
David E. Powell wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. McCain seems to acknowledge that. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. They were not talking about assets, they were talking about yearly income. Even if you consider assets, the vast majority of Americans don't have anywhere near $200,000 in assets let along $5,000,000. According to WSJ the average net worth was $93,100 in 2004. ;~) |
The sinking ship
Balanced View wrote:
:David E. Powell wrote: : On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: : : SNIP : : : Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. : After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from : middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring : disconnect from the real lives of the American people. : : : With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case : of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the : line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Not to : mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" : lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and : don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or : spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past : 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's : how they got to be that way. : : Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank : accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on : hand. : : So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending : on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable : car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you : can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to : reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of : that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where : housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then : we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their : tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed : up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as : how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work : involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't : be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the : government, etc. : : McCain seems to acknowledge that. Obama's in the same club but : doesn't. : : :They were not talking about assets, they were talking about yearly :income. Even if you consider assets, :the vast majority of Americans don't have anywhere near $200,000 in :assets let along $5,000,000. :According to WSJ the average net worth was $93,100 in 2004. ;~) : Did ANY of you people actually see this? McCain was *JOKING*, you silly idiots! -- "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is only stupid." -- Heinrich Heine |
The sinking ship
wrote in message ... On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: There is nothing wrong with being happily stinking rich and utterly detached. Nothing, that is, unless you make criticizing your political opponent as "elitist" and "out of touch" a centerpiece of your campaign. Rick Davis, speaking on behalf of his $100 million man John McCain, earlier this month offered the latest formulation of Barack Obama as an effete, aloof denizen of the upper class: . "Only celebrities like Barack Obama go to the gym three times a day, demand 'MET-RX chocolate roasted-peanut protein bars and bottles of a hard-to-find organic brew - Black Forest Berry Honest Tea' and worry about the price of arugula." . Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. . For starters, McCain in April declared that there had been "great progress economically" during the Bush years. On more than one occasion, he diagnosed Americans' concerns over the dismal U.S. economy as "psychological." (Phil Gramm, McCain's close friend and adviser supposedly excommunicated over his "whiners" remarks, was back with the campaign last week.) McCain, a man who owns eight homes nationwide, in March lectured Americans facing foreclosure that they ought to be "doing what is necessary -- working a second job, skipping a vacation, and managing their budgets -- to make their payments on time." And when all else fails, McCain told the people of the economically devastated regions in Martin County, Kentucky and Youngstown, Ohio, there's always eBay. In his defense, McCain's shocking tone-deafness may just be a matter of perspective. When you're as well off as he is, anything below a $5 million income (a figure exceeding that earned on average by the top 0.1% of Americans) seems middle class. *The $100 Million Man* Courtesy of his wife Cindy's beer distribution fortune (one her late father apparently chose not to share with her half-sister Kathleen), the McCains are worth well over $100 million. (In the two-page tax summary she eventually released to the public, Cindy McCain reported another $6 million in 2006.) As Salon reported back in 2000, the second Mrs. McCain's millions were essential in launching her husband's political career. Unsurprisingly, the Weekly Standard's Matthew Continetti, who four years ago called Theresa Heinz-Kerry a "sugar mommy," has been silent on the topic of Cindy McCain. *The Joys of (Eight) Home Ownership* While fellow adulterer John Edwards was pilloried for his mansion, John McCain's eight homes around the country have received little notice or criticism. His properties include a 10 acre lake-side Sedona estate, euphemistically called a "cabin" by the McCain campaign, and a home featured in Architectural Digest. The one featuring "remote control window coverings" was recently put up for sale. Still, their formidable resources did not prevent the McCains from failing to pay taxes on a tony La Jolla, California condo used by Cindy's aged aunt. *The Anheuser-Busch Windfall* As it turns out, the beauty of globalization is in the eye of the beholder. While John McCain apparently played a critical role in facilitating DHL's takeover of Airborne (and with it, the looming loss of 8,000 jobs in Wilmington, Ohio), Cindy McCain is set to earn a staggering multi-million dollar pay-day from the acquisition of Anheuser-Busch by the Belgian beverage giant, In Bev. As the Wall Street Journal reported in July, Mrs. McCain runs the third largest Anheuser-Busch distributorship in the nation, and owns between $2.5 and $5 million in the company's stock. Amazingly, while Missouri's politicians of both parties lined up to try to block the sale, John McCain held a fundraiser in the Show Me State even as the In Bev deal was being finalized. *McCain's $370,000 Personal Tax Break* Earlier this year, the Center for American Progress analyzed John McCain's tax proposals. The conclusion? McCain's plan is radically more regressive than even that of President Bush, delivering 58% of its benefits to the wealthiest 1% of American taxpayers. McCain's born-again support for the Bush tax cuts has one additional bonus for Mr. Straight Talk: the McCains would save an estimated $373,000 a year. *Paying Off $225,000 Credit Card Debt - Priceless* That massive windfall from his own tax plan will come in handy for John McCain. As was reported in June, the McCains were carrying over $225,000 in credit card debt. The American Express card - don't leave your homes without it. *Charity Begins at Home* As Harpers documented earlier this year, the McCains are true believers in the old saying that charity begins at home: . Between 2001 and 2006, McCain contributed roughly $950,000 to [their] foundation. That accounted for all of its listed income other than for $100 that came from an anonymous donor. During that same period, the McCain foundation made contributions of roughly $1.6 million. More than $500,000 went to his kids' private schools, most of which was donated when his children were attending those institutions. So McCain apparently received major tax deductions for supporting elite schools attended by his children. . Ironically, the McCain campaign last week blasted Barack Obama for having attended a private school in Hawaii on scholarship. That attack came just weeks after John McCain held an event at his old prep school, Episcopal High, an institution where fees now top $38,000 a year. *Private Jet Setters* As the New York Times detailed back in April, John McCain enjoyed the use of his wife's private jet for his campaign, courtesy of election law loopholes he helped craft. Despite the controversy, McCain continued to use Cindy's corporate jet. For her part, Cindy McCain says that even with skyrocketing fuel costs, "in Arizona the only way to get around the state is by small private plane." *Help on the Homefront* In these tough economic times, the McCains are able to stretch their household budget. As the AP reported in April, "McCain reported paying $136,572 in wages to household employees in 2007. Aides say the McCains pay for a caretaker for a cabin in Sedona, Ariz., child care for their teenage daughter, and a personal assistant for Cindy McCain." *Well-Heeled in $520 Shoes* If clothes make the man, then John McCain has it made. As Huffington Post noted in July, "He has worn a pair of $520 black leather Ferragamo shoes on every recent campaign stop - from a news conference with the Dalai Lama to a supermarket visit in Bethlehem, PA." It is altogether fitting that McCain wore the golden loafers during a golf outing with President George H.W. Bush in which he rode around in cart displaying the sign, "Property of Bush #41. Hands Off." The Dems throw a $28,000/plate dinner for Obama and then claim to be the party of the common man? I cannot afford to be a Dem. You're not smart enough, actually. |
The sinking ship
"Glenn Dowdy" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... The Dems throw a $28,000/plate dinner for Obama and then claim to be the party of the common man? I cannot afford to be a Dem. Sure you can. Either party would gladly accept your donation of $25. Send it in right away. Glenn D. He can't afford $25. |
The sinking ship
"David E. Powell" wrote in message ... On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. McCain seems to acknowledge that. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. See? It doesn't take Cindy McCain's kind of money to make you out of touch. Mr. $5M poormouth here probably tips waitresses at 10% for fear that any more would jeapardize his retirement. He's right about one thing in today's America though: If you're not a millionaire, abject poverty is only a medical bill or natural disaster away. |
The sinking ship
On Sep 16, 4:09*pm, Andre Lieven wrote:
On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell" wrote: On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty. No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working 30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with doing. Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US, thats for sure. For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible. ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck. The land value goes into total assets, you see. Then, if you have a two person income.... Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant told them "you're rich". Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me. It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his immediate family. Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain as well. Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/ position in the US *middle class*. I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving them. Not that I mind. I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20- something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of places) over the past 20 or so years. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. Ibid. Again you agree with me. Thank you. Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers. Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard. I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes, that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance, payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that work there, as well as for themselves their own families. All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and growing. Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30 years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level. As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an illogical mark for gov't policy. McCain seems to acknowledge that. McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent. Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with. Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a couple million worth of land. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ? Thats a Good Thing for Obama. No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while trying to prove me wrong. Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it. That's the point and that's the truth. Andre |
The sinking ship
On Sep 16, 10:39*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote: On Sep 16, 4:09*pm, Andre Lieven wrote: On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell" wrote: On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty. No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working 30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with doing. Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US, thats for sure. For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible. ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck. The land value goes into total assets, you see. Then, if you have a two person income.... Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant told them "you're rich". Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me. It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his immediate family. Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain as well. Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/ position in the US *middle class*. I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving them. Not that I mind. I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20- something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of places) over the past 20 or so years. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. Ibid. Again you agree with me. Thank you. Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers. Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard. I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes, that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance, payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that work there, as well as for themselves their own families. All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and growing. Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30 years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level. As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an illogical mark for gov't policy. McCain seems to acknowledge that. McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent. Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with. Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a couple million worth of land. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ? Thats a Good Thing for Obama. No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while trying to prove me wrong. Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it. That's the point and that's the truth. Andre Considering he signed a pre-nup, McSlime is really, really stupid to diss his wife in public. She not only has the money and is picky about yours, mine, and ours, if he doesn't win, or even if he does and is dumb, could be just another ex Navy fighter jock in Pensacola wandering the beach going, 'My friends, I used to have it all....' |
The sinking ship
On Sep 16, 11:39*pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote: On Sep 16, 4:09*pm, Andre Lieven wrote: On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell" wrote: On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty. No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working 30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with doing. Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US, thats for sure. For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible. ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck. The land value goes into total assets, you see. Then, if you have a two person income.... Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant told them "you're rich". Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me. It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his immediate family. Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain as well. Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/ position in the US *middle class*. I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving them. Not that I mind. I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20- something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of places) over the past 20 or so years. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. Ibid. Again you agree with me. Thank you. Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers. Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard. I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes, that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance, payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that work there, as well as for themselves their own families. All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and growing. Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30 years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level. As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an illogical mark for gov't policy. McCain seems to acknowledge that. McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent. Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with. Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a couple million worth of land. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ? Thats a Good Thing for Obama. No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while trying to prove me wrong. Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it. That's the point and that's the truth. Andre Might find that stock broker or advisor in the unemployment line. |
The sinking ship
On Sep 16, 11:35*pm, "Tazmanian Devil" wrote:
"David E. Powell" wrote in ... On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection.. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. McCain seems to acknowledge that. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. See? It doesn't take Cindy McCain's kind of money to make you out of touch. Mr. $5M poormouth here probably tips waitresses at 10% for fear that any more would jeapardize his retirement. He's right about one thing in today's America though: If you're not a millionaire, abject poverty is only a medical bill or natural disaster away. And if you are a millionaire and that guy from Lehman Brothers convinced you that the place to make sure your money was safe for the future was to buy a real estate trust....and invest in Lehman Brothers and other investment bank stocks. |
The sinking ship
On Sep 16, 11:39 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote: On Sep 16, 4:09 pm, Andre Lieven wrote: On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell" wrote: On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty. No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working 30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with doing. Well under 4% of all US people achieve that number, so any suggestion that this is "middle class"is, well, insane. Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US, thats for sure. For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible. ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck. The land value goes into total assets, you see. Which still fails to get 96%+ of all US people into that level, so, once again, this is insane excuse mongering for a rich moron's idiot statement. Then, if you have a two person income.... You just have NO clue at all, do you ? Most 2 income families NEED that second income just to pay the bills. Have you seen the current housing crisis lately ? Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant told them "you're rich". Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me. Wrong. That accountant and you are using different levels. By YOUR count, my father in law isn't even middle class. It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his immediate family. Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain as well. Empty assertion. Meaningless twaddle. Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/ position in the US *middle class*. I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving them. Not that I mind. Since you're the one Moving The Goalposts, you can then play with your Straw Whores all you want; Neither has any bearing on what I wrote, correcting both your and McBush's errors. I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20- something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of places) over the past 20 or so years. Condescending arrogance noted. Again, none of which addresses my corrections of your and McBush's errors. I also note that you, again, wished to shift onto ME the task of proving YOUR and McBush's erroneous claims. Pass: Do your own homework, monkey boy. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. Ibid. Again you agree with me. Thank you. No, and at this point, I have to wonder at your basic reading abilities. Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers. Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard. Yes, NJ is loaded with farms... Moron. I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes, that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance, payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that work there, as well as for themselves their own families. Now you're trying to conflate *gross* assets with *net* assets. Go talk with any competant tax and asset management advisor as to the basic error that that ignorance leads to... All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and growing. Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30 years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off. IOW, you agree with ME, in the fact that less than 4% of all US people get to such a financial level. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level. As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an illogical mark for gov't policy. Lying about what I have said is a sure sign of Bushism on your part. I quite disagree with any idiot notion that $5 Mil in assets makes one middle class. McCain seems to acknowledge that. McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent. Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with. More lies from you. Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a couple million worth of land. A "couple million worth of land" ISN'T FIVE million. Duh, you just *flunked Basic Arithmetic*. But then, so did the Moron Bush Administration. So, you're in plenty of company of morons. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ? Thats a Good Thing for Obama. No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while trying to prove me wrong. Massive Projection Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it. What, he didn't even know how many houses he owns. Most "middle class" people are pretty clear about that number: 1. That's the point and that's the truth. Wrong on both factless claims. Andre |
SPAM: Wafa crossposting bullshit...
On Sep 22, 3:29*pm, Andre Lieven wrote:
On Sep 16, 11:39 pm, "David E. Powell" wrote: On Sep 16, 4:09 pm, Andre Lieven wrote: On Sep 16, 3:09 pm, "David E. Powell" wrote: On Sep 16, 1:13 pm, A Boater wrote: SNIP Of course, Davis' "arugula war" is just another attempt at misdirection. After all, John McCain's $5 million threshold where "you move from middle class to rich" is just the latest episode of his enduring disconnect from the real lives of the American people. With real estate prices, inflation, and the need for a cushion in case of sickness, as well as need to invest, $5 mill in assets may be the line between "still having to worry" and "being set for life." Moving The Goalposts, 10 Yard Penalty. No. I am defining this in terms of wealth accumulated after working 30-40 years. It's basically what a lot of people are concerned with doing. Well under 4% of all US people achieve that number, so any suggestion that this is "middle class"is, well, insane. Having $5,000,000 is NOT a function of being middle class in the US, thats for sure. For a person starting out or having been on the job 5-10 years probably not. Remember, I am not defining 5 million dollars in assets as being middle class, but where one might be "set" and rich after several decades of hard work. For people after 30-40 years with paid off homes, built up stocks and bank accounts, it is possible. ESPECIALLY if the land value the house is on skyrockets (which happens a lot) and the associated hike in property taxes which tends to suck. The land value goes into total assets, you see. Which still fails to get 96%+ of all US people into that level, so, once again, this is insane excuse mongering for a rich moron's idiot statement. Then, if you have a two person income.... You just have NO clue at all, do you ? Most 2 income families NEED that second income just to pay the bills. Have you seen the current housing crisis lately ? Heck, my in laws have no more than half that, yet their accountant told them "you're rich". Yes. Bingo. You just described how taxes aimed at "the rich" are hurting normal people. Thank you for making my point for me. Wrong. That accountant and you are using different levels. By YOUR count, my father in law isn't even middle class. It seems that McBush doesn't know jack about basic facts of economic life for the 99.9% of US citizens who make less than his immediate family. Um, dude, from what you just posted you agree with me and with McCain as well. Empty assertion. Meaningless twaddle. Not to mention the cost in land, assets etc. of maintaining a "rich" lifestyle. Many folks who have a couple mill don't have uber-cars and don't live with a mindset of spending all their cash as it comes in or spending more than they have. Indeed, for many of those who are past 50 and have a couple mill after working about 30 or so years, that's how they got to be that way. Feel free to provide verifiable evidence that thats a common trait/ position in the US *middle class*. I said that 5 million in total assets is where rich starts, so it isn't middle class. If you wish to rebut my arguments, stop proving them. Not that I mind. Since you're the one Moving The Goalposts, you can then play with your Straw Whores all you want; Neither has any bearing on what I wrote, correcting both your and McBush's errors. I recommend you speak with a stock broker or adviser on long term portfolios (and forecasts on what will be needed for one with inflation over the next 20-30 years for someone starting out now at 20- something or so) as well as with real estate agents about the rising costs of land and homes (and value, and property taxes in a lot of places) over the past 20 or so years. Condescending arrogance noted. Again, none of which addresses my corrections of your and McBush's errors. I also note that you, again, wished to shift onto ME the task of proving YOUR and McBush's erroneous claims. Pass: Do your own homework, monkey boy. Remember that "5 million dollars" figure would be counting bank accounts, stocks, land, assets etc. all together. Not just cash on hand. Ibid. Again you agree with me. Thank you. No, and at this point, I have to wonder at your basic reading abilities. Remember that this includes land, which is what really hits farmers. Especially in a place like New Jersey where land values have skyrocketed. This is why the inheritance tax really hits farmers hard. Yes, NJ is loaded with farms... Moron. I haven't mentioned small business owners either. If they own their building or storefront, that goes into assets. Also, inventory. Yes, that includes the 10 cases of ALF keychains from 1985 gathering dust in the storeroom. Businesses spend on things that sort of poke along and sometimes things that don't pan out as well as the things that go over big, and they depend on the things that poke along and the ones that really pay off to cover that loss, plus the taxes, plus the expenses of hiring and paying people, which also include insurance, payroll taxes, and often times some health policy for the people that work there, as well as for themselves their own families. Now you're trying to conflate *gross* assets with *net* assets. Go talk with any competant tax and asset management advisor as to the basic error that that ignorance leads to... All of that goes into assets. Not all small business owners live large, even at the mark of a few Million dollars in assets, because so much is tied up in that. Especially in the first few years when it is often the toughest to get a business running and keep it going and growing. Finally, remember that I am not talking the average family starting out, but people who have worked a long time, decades actually, to get to a point where they feel secure for retirement. Not someone who woke up one day and was handed it or was born into it, but who worked 20-30 years to get to that point, complete with appreciating value on their house, land it is on, etc. after paying it all off. IOW, you agree with ME, in the fact that less than 4% of all US people get to such a financial level. So that would cover owning a house, preferably a decent one (Depending on area real estate values vary) that is all paid off, a servicable car, and enough stocks and bank accounts to have dividend income you can live on or boost earnings with while having left over money to reinvest and put back into the bank. Looking at it that way, a lot of that 5 Mill gets tied up pretty quickly. Especially in areas where housing prices are really rough and cost of living is high. Even then we are talking 5 Mill as a figure for someone who has worked their tail off for quite a number of years. It isn't like "Oh someone showed up, and was handed 5 Million dollars" certainly that gets portrayed as how it happens by some but usually there is seriously hard work involved in someone getting to that point. Which is why it shouldn't be punished too severely, as a balance for the income it provodes the government, etc. None of which addresses the basic misconception that McCain had in setting a line between middle class and rich at the 5 million level. As you yourself have proven and averred to, 5 million is not an illogical mark for gov't policy. Lying about what I have said is a sure sign of Bushism on your part. I quite disagree with any idiot notion that $5 Mil in assets makes one middle class. McCain seems to acknowledge that. McCain acknowledges your Straw Man ? Irrelevent. Not at all. It's the whole point. One you yourself agreed with. More lies from you. Go ask the average small farmer some time if, even with rising crop prices recently, they feel like a millionaire. Even if they own a couple million worth of land. A "couple million worth of land" ISN'T FIVE million. Duh, you just *flunked Basic Arithmetic*. But then, so did the Moron Bush Administration. So, you're in plenty of company of morons. Obama's in the same club but doesn't. Doesn't cheat on one wife while lining up the rich second one ? Thats a Good Thing for Obama. No, it's a distraction from an issue which you agreed with even while trying to prove me wrong. Massive Projection Obama isn't a poor man either. McCain at least is honest about it. What, he didn't even know how many houses he owns. Most "middle class" people are pretty clear about that number: 1. That's the point and that's the truth. Wrong on both factless claims. Andre- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
SPAM: Wafa crossposting bullshit...
On Sep 22, 3:38*pm, wrote:
On Sep 22, 3:29*pm, Andre Lieven wrote: so you repeated the entire post to get a one-liner in showing you don't want to play? |
SPAM: Wafa crossposting bullshit...
On Sep 22, 3:43*pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote: On Sep 22, 3:38*pm, wrote: On Sep 22, 3:29*pm, Andre Lieven wrote: so you repeated the entire post to get a one-liner in showing you don't want to play? Oh no.. did I offend you? Just stop cross posting your bull**** here and you won't need to scold me.. Look out, I might top post too... Ohhhhh , maybe I misspelled a word too.. pathetic. Why is it you guys need internet sockpuppet victories? Forget it, don't need your you tube response.... |
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