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Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Aug 19, 7:13 pm, Gene Kearns
wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:23:37 -0400, penned the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat. While I agree, in principle, this discussion will never *go* anywhere because everybody has their own personal definition for "small center console" (or small boat, for that matter) and for "offshore." Locally, I think most people would consider anything short of about 21' "small" and "offshore" conjures up thoughts of distances in the 30+ mile range. Certainly, YMMV..... The controlling factor is whether or not the designer took into account the inevitability of the boat being pooped and carefully designed out that factor as a cause of sinking. -- Agent 5.00 Build 1159 Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC. Homepagehttp://pamandgene.idleplay.net/ Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguidehttp://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats In reality, one does not want to take this boat offshore because she would have to slow down to about 12 kts in any chop over 2.5'. However, for a single trip where one can simply run away from a thunderstorm, one does not need a surf rescue boat to go from Miami to Bimini. One plans for reducing the risk of this trip to no more than a few times that of driving down the Fl Turnpike, not for reducing it to zero. All other times she is basically a near shore boat. There have been several incredible trips in Tolman boats, mostly in Alaskan offshore waters that are probably rougher than the average FL thunderstorm. One trip circumnavigated the Aleutian Peninsula and some of the islands. Another was from the mainland to Kodiak Island (in a Jumbo Tolman). So, the basic design is solid and it is simply a matter of getting the details right. I would not hesitate to do this trip in my homebuilt MiniCup sailboat (12') if I had sufficient escort. I read of someone doing this trip in a pontoon boat which I think is insane. It has been done in Boston Whalers as small as 16'. Remember, we are talking about a 4-5 hour trip. I know that weather here in N. FL can change unexpectedly in that time but rarely so dramatically as to be completely unexpected and cause loss of life. In my 20+ yrs of sailing, I have rarely been caught in thunderstorms, most of the time I was able to simply go around them, even at 4 kts. Line Squalls are a different matter but I have always managed to avoid being on the water when they were around. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
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Cockpit drainage, lets try again
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:53:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Line Squalls are a different matter but I have always managed to avoid being on the water when they were around. It is not unheard of for an airplane to travel hundreds of extra miles avoiding thunderstorms. They are also fast enough to, with the aid of ground radar, as well as onboard, find a hole in the line. Or outrun it and land and let it pass. Thunderstorms cause planes to crash. They break the wings off. They can also turn a plane into a giant hailstone. Rather be in a decent boat, one with a lightning rod. Casady I don't know if I would want a lightning rod. I know it's a subject of debate, but I hear of too many stories of dedicated grounding plates on the hull (to which the lightning rod is attached) being blown right out of the hull due to a strike. Boat sinks. If not connected to a dedicated grounding plate, and attached to the boat's regular bonding system, results can still be the same, or, at a minimum, taking out all your electronics and possibly starting a fire. If I had a sailboat with a conductive mast, I think I'd install a large, round metal ball on the top ... similiar to those used on flagpoles. The round shape of the ball minimizes the static charge potential that leads to a strike. The new, old boat I recently bought has a "lightning diffuser" or some such device installed on the tubular, aluminum radar arch structure. I pulled out the manual on it, not completely sure I wanted it on the boat. It is essentially a stainless brush, a rod with stainless steel bristles coming out around the rod for it's full length. The concept is that a static charge builds up on object about to be hit by lightning. If the charge is concentrated on a sharp, conductive object, the potential builds higher and the chances of a strike is increased. The large number of stainless bristles on the device is supposed to diffuse the charge, preventing a single point from getting too high in potential. Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. Eisboch |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:28:55 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. If you go to a harbor like Newport, RI that has a lot of really large sailboats at the dock, you will frequently see wires clipped to the rigging and hanging in the water. Typically these will be something like the zinc "fish" that West Marine sells. They come with an attached wire and large alligator clip. The theory is that if you keep the rigging well grounded that charge will bleed off the mast before it gets to dangerous levels. I have no idea whether or not it works, but my theory is that it can't hurt, and a lot of people who manage large expensive boats seem to believe in it. We do it on the GB when it is docked in the summer, one on each side. I usually end up drilling and tapping the fish after a year so I can attach a fresh wire and clip. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:21:10 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:28:55 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. If you go to a harbor like Newport, RI that has a lot of really large sailboats at the dock, you will frequently see wires clipped to the rigging and hanging in the water. Typically these will be something like the zinc "fish" that West Marine sells. They come with an attached wire and large alligator clip. The theory is that if you keep the rigging well grounded that charge will bleed off the mast before it gets to dangerous levels. I have no idea whether or not it works, but my theory is that it can't hurt, and a lot of people who manage large expensive boats seem to believe in it. We do it on the GB when it is docked in the summer, one on each side. I usually end up drilling and tapping the fish after a year so I can attach a fresh wire and clip. That makes sense. I think that often too much effort is made to "attract" the strike, thinking it's potential can be managed through grounding schemes. I think it's better to devise systems that minimize the chances of a strike. Hundreds oh thousands of lightning rod equipped buildings have been struck at least billions of times with no damage. I watched a TV tower struck seven times in two seconds. The picture on the set was not affected. Thinking humankind cannot devise a way to safely handle lightning strikes is just ignorant. Casady |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... Hundreds oh thousands of lightning rod equipped buildings have been struck at least billions of times with no damage. I watched a TV tower struck seven times in two seconds. The picture on the set was not affected. Thinking humankind cannot devise a way to safely handle lightning strikes is just ignorant. Casady Buildings and TV towers don't sink. Eisboch |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:21:10 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:28:55 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. If you go to a harbor like Newport, RI that has a lot of really large sailboats at the dock, you will frequently see wires clipped to the rigging and hanging in the water. Typically these will be something like the zinc "fish" that West Marine sells. They come with an attached wire and large alligator clip. The theory is that if you keep the rigging well grounded that charge will bleed off the mast before it gets to dangerous levels. I have no idea whether or not it works, but my theory is that it can't hurt, and a lot of people who manage large expensive boats seem to believe in it. We do it on the GB when it is docked in the summer, one on each side. I usually end up drilling and tapping the fish after a year so I can attach a fresh wire and clip. That makes sense. I think that often too much effort is made to "attract" the strike, thinking it's potential can be managed through grounding schemes. I think it's better to devise systems that minimize the chances of a strike. They wire lightning rods with 000 wire. I am surprised they can handle 20 000 amps. My previous address, farm buildings on a hill, had them and were struck repeatedly with no damage. A mast will attract lightning. It should be grounded with a 000 wire, unless you want to see exploding fiberglass. Score one for a metal boat. The connection from that 000 wire to the sea doesn't really need to be enormous, but I don't know how they figure it. You can expect a steam explosion no matter what you do. Trees sometimes explode. So do wood, or glass boats, on occasion. You need a lightning rods to protect the radios, if not the hull, especially on powerboats where those ten foot whips are the highest thing around. If you don't get a rod and a strike fries your radios, console yourself that had the juice gone through a glass hull there might have been sinkage type damage. Lightning strikes on aluminum planes make a one to two inch hole. But they are of course, ungrounded. A metal boat is pretty safe, although the radios are not. Lightning bolts average 20 000 Amps at 20 000 000 Volts. I think you should be able to run a 000 wire from the mast to ground. Did I mention that is is scary to be within four feet of a strike? There people that don't learn and who are relatively lucky who have been struck at least three times. One pro golfer said that if you were caught out on the course, hold up a one iron because even god couldn't hit one of those. I have a one iron, and I can't although one guy, only, Ben Hogan, one of the best ever, a legend, one of those guys they name lines of golf clubs after, could hit one. Nobody carries one. Not worth the weight. I digress, but 80% of the posts at this NG are off topic. So what I say. Gives something to do after you finish the five minutes of boating stuff. Casady |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:11:30 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:28:55 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. If you go to a harbor like Newport, RI that has a lot of really large sailboats at the dock, you will frequently see wires clipped to the rigging and hanging in the water. Typically these will be something like the zinc "fish" that West Marine sells. They come with an attached wire and large alligator clip. The theory is that if you keep the rigging well grounded that charge will bleed off the mast before it gets to dangerous levels. I have no idea whether or not it works, but my theory is that it can't hurt, and a lot of people who manage large expensive boats seem to believe in it. We do it on the GB when it is docked in the summer, one on each side. I usually end up drilling and tapping the fish after a year so I can attach a fresh wire and clip. Use zillion strand wire. Casady |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:32:58 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "Richard Casady" wrote in message .. . Hundreds oh thousands of lightning rod equipped buildings have been struck at least billions of times with no damage. I watched a TV tower struck seven times in two seconds. The picture on the set was not affected. Thinking humankind cannot devise a way to safely handle lightning strikes is just ignorant. Casady Buildings and TV towers don't sink. Point is that they are not damaged. Trees sometimes explode from a lightning strike. In the days of hemp rigging and wood spars lightning could do some damage. Lightning can explode the glass between a chainplate and the water. Most forest fires are started by lightning. Local landshark got killed on a golf course, of all places. Casady |
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