|
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! -- ** Good Day! ** John H |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio. He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer in his driveway, and he's never out on the water. You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time. OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85 miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. -- ** Good Day! ** John H |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
is in re-runs. Eisboch |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:42:17 -0400, hk wrote:
wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio. He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer in his driveway, and he's never out on the water. You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time. The flying dutchman is long gone. Bought it in extremely poor condition for (I think) $150 when I was a teenager. It's racing days were obviously over, and it was probably ready for the landfill when I got it. The FD had so many lines it looked like a spaghetti factory. In this case, due to my limited budget, most of those lines were of the clothesline variety. The transom, I had to replace with a plywood facimile cut out with a jig saw. Two large holes with about an inch or two of material surrounding them, and a wider section down the center for the gudgeons. On one of the earliest sails, I thought it would be cool to try out the trapeze. Probably should have inspected it first. We were gong along at a pretty good clip when there was a loud TWANG, and I was in the water. Took my buddy (who narrowly avoided a capsize when I went over) a bit of an effort to get the boat turned around to come back and get me. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Aug 19, 4:29 pm, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. -- ** Good Day! ** John H On the other Tolman forum, there is a discussion of cockpit drainage and somebody calculates that 2 5" diameter ports (two five inch diameter) would drain a 7'X7' X12" volume in about 52 seconds and this seems very long. Pasco and others discuss open transom boats, even with sealed decks as being dangerous if they are disabled because they can then be filled from astern. Even if not disabled they can be filled from astern. So, what is the correct philosophy on cockpit drainage? Do we put our effort into keeping the water out thus minimizing drainage area or try to allow the water to drain very fast but make us susceptible to waves from astern? |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
|
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio. He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer in his driveway, and he's never out on the water. You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time. OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85 miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed. Oi! Oi! Oi! Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean. Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs. There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian. Just remember the Boy Scout motto. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Aug 19, 4:58 pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio. He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer in his driveway, and he's never out on the water. You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time. OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85 miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed. Oi! Oi! Oi! Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean. Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs. There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian. Just remember the Boy Scout motto. Regardless of whether or not I ever take the Tolman to Bimini, I'd like info to make her more seaworthy anyway. It seems the best compromise would be sealed decks (with screw in access ports) and large scuppers about 3" above the deck and then bilge pumps. Where to pump from if the deck is sealed? Pump from above deck? Seems most likely as I would still have 3" to pump out below the scuppers. Next, How many sealed compartments? I assume these compartments should be isolated. Looking at commercial boats will do no good as they all have liners, an entirely different construction method. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
wrote:
On Aug 19, 4:58 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio. He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer in his driveway, and he's never out on the water. You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time. OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85 miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed. Oi! Oi! Oi! Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean. Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs. There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian. Just remember the Boy Scout motto. Regardless of whether or not I ever take the Tolman to Bimini, I'd like info to make her more seaworthy anyway. It seems the best compromise would be sealed decks (with screw in access ports) and large scuppers about 3" above the deck and then bilge pumps. Where to pump from if the deck is sealed? Pump from above deck? Seems most likely as I would still have 3" to pump out below the scuppers. Next, How many sealed compartments? I assume these compartments should be isolated. Looking at commercial boats will do no good as they all have liners, an entirely different construction method. Some commercial boats have liners, some do not. My Parker doesn't, and neither did my previous Parker. None of the boats that interest me have "liners." Is the deck you are planning to put in going to be below, at or above the waterline? That determines where your scuppers should be. If the below deck area is really sealed, then what you need is a drain hole and plug to drain out the water when the boat is out of the water, and a bilge pump under the deck that pumps out any water that gets in while the boat is in the water. Seems to me you could put an outlet hole in the transom, as high as you like. If you are going to have sealed compartments under the deck you install, you are going to need limber holes so water does not get trapped. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Aug 19, 5:19 pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Aug 19, 4:58 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio. He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer in his driveway, and he's never out on the water. You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time. OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85 miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed. Oi! Oi! Oi! Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean. Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs. There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian. Just remember the Boy Scout motto. Regardless of whether or not I ever take the Tolman to Bimini, I'd like info to make her more seaworthy anyway. It seems the best compromise would be sealed decks (with screw in access ports) and large scuppers about 3" above the deck and then bilge pumps. Where to pump from if the deck is sealed? Pump from above deck? Seems most likely as I would still have 3" to pump out below the scuppers. Next, How many sealed compartments? I assume these compartments should be isolated. Looking at commercial boats will do no good as they all have liners, an entirely different construction method. Some commercial boats have liners, some do not. My Parker doesn't, and neither did my previous Parker. None of the boats that interest me have "liners." Is the deck you are planning to put in going to be below, at or above the waterline? That determines where your scuppers should be. If the below deck area is really sealed, then what you need is a drain hole and plug to drain out the water when the boat is out of the water, and a bilge pump under the deck that pumps out any water that gets in while the boat is in the water. Seems to me you could put an outlet hole in the transom, as high as you like. If you are going to have sealed compartments under the deck you install, you are going to need limber holes so water does not get trapped. Harry: The deck would deff be above water. Most ppl say to use limber holes but that sorta negates the isolated sealed compartment idea. So,l am not sure.... If they are not isolated, a pump to pump the whole under deck area would work but do I also need a pump above deck in addition to the scuppers? Thanks |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
wrote:
On Aug 19, 5:19 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 19, 4:58 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 19, 3:42 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Herring knows less about boats than I do about shortwave radio, and I know absolutely nothing about shortwave radio. He's apparently never been on or even seen a transomless racing sail boat. That's probably because there are cobwebs under the boat trailer in his driveway, and he's never out on the water. You still have the FD? My memory of the class boat was that it had a closed transom, with big flaps that opened to let the water out. Or maybe they were just big square holes in the transom. Been a long time. OK, open transom or large scuppers? Which should it be? I wonder how many "offshore boats" really are self righting? The available info on keeping the sea out vs getting green water out seems contradictory so much that it seems that "offshore" means what ever the manufacturer says it means. Kevin Beddoe has a place ont he FishyFish site where he discusses taking a boat "Madelisa", almost identical to mine 85 miles off Cabo in Baja. Are conditions off Cabo better or worse than early summer in S. FL? From the pics, "Madelisa" has a deck but no scuppers at all. He then describes his deck as not even being sealed. Oi! Oi! Oi! Here's a suggestion. Tow that boat over to the Atlantic side for a few days, and run it in the water. You could launch from Haulover Inlet, and run a nice choppy but not too bad inlet and be right out in the ocean. Head offshore a few miles on a near flat calm day and head out of the inlet on a really choppy snotty day. See how your boat performs. There's nothing you can read here or anywhere else that is going to give you the knowledge base you need to head offshore. Honest Indian. Just remember the Boy Scout motto. Regardless of whether or not I ever take the Tolman to Bimini, I'd like info to make her more seaworthy anyway. It seems the best compromise would be sealed decks (with screw in access ports) and large scuppers about 3" above the deck and then bilge pumps. Where to pump from if the deck is sealed? Pump from above deck? Seems most likely as I would still have 3" to pump out below the scuppers. Next, How many sealed compartments? I assume these compartments should be isolated. Looking at commercial boats will do no good as they all have liners, an entirely different construction method. Some commercial boats have liners, some do not. My Parker doesn't, and neither did my previous Parker. None of the boats that interest me have "liners." Is the deck you are planning to put in going to be below, at or above the waterline? That determines where your scuppers should be. If the below deck area is really sealed, then what you need is a drain hole and plug to drain out the water when the boat is out of the water, and a bilge pump under the deck that pumps out any water that gets in while the boat is in the water. Seems to me you could put an outlet hole in the transom, as high as you like. If you are going to have sealed compartments under the deck you install, you are going to need limber holes so water does not get trapped. Harry: The deck would deff be above water. Most ppl say to use limber holes but that sorta negates the isolated sealed compartment idea. So,l am not sure.... If they are not isolated, a pump to pump the whole under deck area would work but do I also need a pump above deck in addition to the scuppers? Thanks The problem with "isolated sealed compartments" under the deck is that they usually leak. I've never used an above deck pump on small boats with scuppers, though I do have a hand pump that I used to carry. I don't bother with it anymore. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
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Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:42:03 -0700 (PDT),
wrote: On Aug 19, 4:29 pm, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. -- ** Good Day! ** John H On the other Tolman forum, there is a discussion of cockpit drainage and somebody calculates that 2 5" diameter ports (two five inch diameter) would drain a 7'X7' X12" volume in about 52 seconds and this seems very long. Pasco and others discuss open transom boats, even with sealed decks as being dangerous if they are disabled because they can then be filled from astern. Even if not disabled they can be filled from astern. So, what is the correct philosophy on cockpit drainage? Do we put our effort into keeping the water out thus minimizing drainage area or try to allow the water to drain very fast but make us susceptible to waves from astern? I pointed you to two examples of what you should be considering. Pasco appears to not know exactly what he's talking about. You can roll a surf rescue boat 360. You can even roll it several times in quick succession. It will right itself and empty pretty fast. No open transom, either. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:23:37 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat. ....especially with an open transom. -- ** Good Day! ** John H |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:30:49 -0400, John H.
salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:23:37 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat. ...especially with an open transom. Well your transom is wide open. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:13:13 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:23:37 -0400, penned the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat. While I agree, in principle, this discussion will never *go* anywhere because everybody has their own personal definition for "small center console" (or small boat, for that matter) and for "offshore." Locally, I think most people would consider anything short of about 21' "small" and "offshore" conjures up thoughts of distances in the 30+ mile range. Certainly, YMMV..... The controlling factor is whether or not the designer took into account the inevitability of the boat being pooped and carefully designed out that factor as a cause of sinking. I can agree with that, in principal, as well. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Aug 19, 7:13 pm, Gene Kearns
wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:23:37 -0400, penned the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat. While I agree, in principle, this discussion will never *go* anywhere because everybody has their own personal definition for "small center console" (or small boat, for that matter) and for "offshore." Locally, I think most people would consider anything short of about 21' "small" and "offshore" conjures up thoughts of distances in the 30+ mile range. Certainly, YMMV..... The controlling factor is whether or not the designer took into account the inevitability of the boat being pooped and carefully designed out that factor as a cause of sinking. -- Agent 5.00 Build 1159 Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC. Homepagehttp://pamandgene.idleplay.net/ Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguidehttp://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats In reality, one does not want to take this boat offshore because she would have to slow down to about 12 kts in any chop over 2.5'. However, for a single trip where one can simply run away from a thunderstorm, one does not need a surf rescue boat to go from Miami to Bimini. One plans for reducing the risk of this trip to no more than a few times that of driving down the Fl Turnpike, not for reducing it to zero. All other times she is basically a near shore boat. There have been several incredible trips in Tolman boats, mostly in Alaskan offshore waters that are probably rougher than the average FL thunderstorm. One trip circumnavigated the Aleutian Peninsula and some of the islands. Another was from the mainland to Kodiak Island (in a Jumbo Tolman). So, the basic design is solid and it is simply a matter of getting the details right. I would not hesitate to do this trip in my homebuilt MiniCup sailboat (12') if I had sufficient escort. I read of someone doing this trip in a pontoon boat which I think is insane. It has been done in Boston Whalers as small as 16'. Remember, we are talking about a 4-5 hour trip. I know that weather here in N. FL can change unexpectedly in that time but rarely so dramatically as to be completely unexpected and cause loss of life. In my 20+ yrs of sailing, I have rarely been caught in thunderstorms, most of the time I was able to simply go around them, even at 4 kts. Line Squalls are a different matter but I have always managed to avoid being on the water when they were around. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:30:49 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:23:37 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:29:54 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:25:00 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:00:58 -0400, John H. salmonremovebait@gmaildotcom wrote: On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:58:08 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: wrote in message ... OK, lets try for some real info this time and no insults. Do so- called offshore boats really have good scuppers? Can anybody provide a link to a pic of such? Next, areas below the deck, are they sealed on offshore boats or accessible via a hatch? How much do said hatches leak? (my sealed compartments have 6" screw in type access ports). By that controversial Florida fellow: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/sinking.htm Eisboch It's for sure this part is kind of scary: "Open Transoms or boats with no transoms have been appearing on the market with more frequency lately, and many of these are just accidents waiting to happen. A boat without a transom cannot reasonably be called seaworthy unless the internal compartments of the hull are made absolutely watertight. This is almost never the case because the builders never put absolutely watertight hatches in the decks. They make a mistake by ignoring the probability that at some point in time the vessel will encounter circumstances where waves are crashing over the nonexistent transom, flooding the deck, and thereby endangering the vessel and its passengers. Builders of such boats don't have the foresight (which they should have) to consider what would happen if such a boat lost power while navigating a dangerous inlet, or breaks down while at sea. Under these circumstances, the lack of a transom becomes very dangerous. Even large sport fishermen with large, open cockpit scuppers or non-sealing transom doors have gotten into trouble under such conditions. If you are the owner of such a boat, you had better think carefully how you use it." Well, I mean, it's scary if that's what you've got! Many modern sailboats have an open transom. It's quite safe. In fact, in some regards, it's considerably safer. Heck, my antique wooden Flying Dutchman didn't have a closed transom. Well, that's true. I wonder, though, if the sailboat with the open transoms are designed somewhat differently than your basic center console 21'er. Your basic small center console is not really an offshore boat. ...especially with an open transom. Well your transom is wide open. The transom on herring's new boat is substantially lower than the one on mine, and once the water comes over his stern, it'll flow into his boat and its exit will be blocked. Glug, glug, glug. Hope someone videotapes it. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
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Cockpit drainage, lets try again
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:53:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Line Squalls are a different matter but I have always managed to avoid being on the water when they were around. It is not unheard of for an airplane to travel hundreds of extra miles avoiding thunderstorms. They are also fast enough to, with the aid of ground radar, as well as onboard, find a hole in the line. Or outrun it and land and let it pass. Thunderstorms cause planes to crash. They break the wings off. They can also turn a plane into a giant hailstone. Rather be in a decent boat, one with a lightning rod. Casady I don't know if I would want a lightning rod. I know it's a subject of debate, but I hear of too many stories of dedicated grounding plates on the hull (to which the lightning rod is attached) being blown right out of the hull due to a strike. Boat sinks. If not connected to a dedicated grounding plate, and attached to the boat's regular bonding system, results can still be the same, or, at a minimum, taking out all your electronics and possibly starting a fire. If I had a sailboat with a conductive mast, I think I'd install a large, round metal ball on the top ... similiar to those used on flagpoles. The round shape of the ball minimizes the static charge potential that leads to a strike. The new, old boat I recently bought has a "lightning diffuser" or some such device installed on the tubular, aluminum radar arch structure. I pulled out the manual on it, not completely sure I wanted it on the boat. It is essentially a stainless brush, a rod with stainless steel bristles coming out around the rod for it's full length. The concept is that a static charge builds up on object about to be hit by lightning. If the charge is concentrated on a sharp, conductive object, the potential builds higher and the chances of a strike is increased. The large number of stainless bristles on the device is supposed to diffuse the charge, preventing a single point from getting too high in potential. Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. Eisboch |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:28:55 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. If you go to a harbor like Newport, RI that has a lot of really large sailboats at the dock, you will frequently see wires clipped to the rigging and hanging in the water. Typically these will be something like the zinc "fish" that West Marine sells. They come with an attached wire and large alligator clip. The theory is that if you keep the rigging well grounded that charge will bleed off the mast before it gets to dangerous levels. I have no idea whether or not it works, but my theory is that it can't hurt, and a lot of people who manage large expensive boats seem to believe in it. We do it on the GB when it is docked in the summer, one on each side. I usually end up drilling and tapping the fish after a year so I can attach a fresh wire and clip. |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:21:10 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:28:55 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. If you go to a harbor like Newport, RI that has a lot of really large sailboats at the dock, you will frequently see wires clipped to the rigging and hanging in the water. Typically these will be something like the zinc "fish" that West Marine sells. They come with an attached wire and large alligator clip. The theory is that if you keep the rigging well grounded that charge will bleed off the mast before it gets to dangerous levels. I have no idea whether or not it works, but my theory is that it can't hurt, and a lot of people who manage large expensive boats seem to believe in it. We do it on the GB when it is docked in the summer, one on each side. I usually end up drilling and tapping the fish after a year so I can attach a fresh wire and clip. That makes sense. I think that often too much effort is made to "attract" the strike, thinking it's potential can be managed through grounding schemes. I think it's better to devise systems that minimize the chances of a strike. Hundreds oh thousands of lightning rod equipped buildings have been struck at least billions of times with no damage. I watched a TV tower struck seven times in two seconds. The picture on the set was not affected. Thinking humankind cannot devise a way to safely handle lightning strikes is just ignorant. Casady |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... Hundreds oh thousands of lightning rod equipped buildings have been struck at least billions of times with no damage. I watched a TV tower struck seven times in two seconds. The picture on the set was not affected. Thinking humankind cannot devise a way to safely handle lightning strikes is just ignorant. Casady Buildings and TV towers don't sink. Eisboch |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:21:10 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:28:55 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. If you go to a harbor like Newport, RI that has a lot of really large sailboats at the dock, you will frequently see wires clipped to the rigging and hanging in the water. Typically these will be something like the zinc "fish" that West Marine sells. They come with an attached wire and large alligator clip. The theory is that if you keep the rigging well grounded that charge will bleed off the mast before it gets to dangerous levels. I have no idea whether or not it works, but my theory is that it can't hurt, and a lot of people who manage large expensive boats seem to believe in it. We do it on the GB when it is docked in the summer, one on each side. I usually end up drilling and tapping the fish after a year so I can attach a fresh wire and clip. That makes sense. I think that often too much effort is made to "attract" the strike, thinking it's potential can be managed through grounding schemes. I think it's better to devise systems that minimize the chances of a strike. They wire lightning rods with 000 wire. I am surprised they can handle 20 000 amps. My previous address, farm buildings on a hill, had them and were struck repeatedly with no damage. A mast will attract lightning. It should be grounded with a 000 wire, unless you want to see exploding fiberglass. Score one for a metal boat. The connection from that 000 wire to the sea doesn't really need to be enormous, but I don't know how they figure it. You can expect a steam explosion no matter what you do. Trees sometimes explode. So do wood, or glass boats, on occasion. You need a lightning rods to protect the radios, if not the hull, especially on powerboats where those ten foot whips are the highest thing around. If you don't get a rod and a strike fries your radios, console yourself that had the juice gone through a glass hull there might have been sinkage type damage. Lightning strikes on aluminum planes make a one to two inch hole. But they are of course, ungrounded. A metal boat is pretty safe, although the radios are not. Lightning bolts average 20 000 Amps at 20 000 000 Volts. I think you should be able to run a 000 wire from the mast to ground. Did I mention that is is scary to be within four feet of a strike? There people that don't learn and who are relatively lucky who have been struck at least three times. One pro golfer said that if you were caught out on the course, hold up a one iron because even god couldn't hit one of those. I have a one iron, and I can't although one guy, only, Ben Hogan, one of the best ever, a legend, one of those guys they name lines of golf clubs after, could hit one. Nobody carries one. Not worth the weight. I digress, but 80% of the posts at this NG are off topic. So what I say. Gives something to do after you finish the five minutes of boating stuff. Casady |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:11:30 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:28:55 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Makes sense to me and since it is a totally passive device (not powered .... just grounded to the arch) I left it on. If you go to a harbor like Newport, RI that has a lot of really large sailboats at the dock, you will frequently see wires clipped to the rigging and hanging in the water. Typically these will be something like the zinc "fish" that West Marine sells. They come with an attached wire and large alligator clip. The theory is that if you keep the rigging well grounded that charge will bleed off the mast before it gets to dangerous levels. I have no idea whether or not it works, but my theory is that it can't hurt, and a lot of people who manage large expensive boats seem to believe in it. We do it on the GB when it is docked in the summer, one on each side. I usually end up drilling and tapping the fish after a year so I can attach a fresh wire and clip. Use zillion strand wire. Casady |
Cockpit drainage, lets try again
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:32:58 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "Richard Casady" wrote in message .. . Hundreds oh thousands of lightning rod equipped buildings have been struck at least billions of times with no damage. I watched a TV tower struck seven times in two seconds. The picture on the set was not affected. Thinking humankind cannot devise a way to safely handle lightning strikes is just ignorant. Casady Buildings and TV towers don't sink. Point is that they are not damaged. Trees sometimes explode from a lightning strike. In the days of hemp rigging and wood spars lightning could do some damage. Lightning can explode the glass between a chainplate and the water. Most forest fires are started by lightning. Local landshark got killed on a golf course, of all places. Casady |
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