Even the geek who has everything...
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
m...



And you forgot about the old Silicon Rectifiers.


You probably mean the old Selenium Rectifiers. The ones that stunk like
rotten eggs when they went bad.

Eisboch


Damn senior moments. Should not forget Selenium as it is a major toxin in
the Central Valley of Calif.

Even the geek who has everything...
 

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:31:08 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:42:06 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:50:49 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


wrote in message
news:8vtla4plfhaak7i04po0j6tculgmppjguu@4ax. com...



Yes, and solid state pre amps and power amps are cleaner than tube
amps, as well. Clean and accurate reproduction is not necessarily
the
objective with tube amplifiers for musical instrument amplification.

How the power is delivered to tubes can measurably affect things
such
as rise time and decay. I'm not promising that you can actually hear
the difference, but purists will swear they can even if it is a
physiological impossibility.


If you think about it though, the "power" is really being delivered by
one
or more big filter capacitors. I never asked one if it cared how the
power
got there. At that point, DC is DC.

Eisboch


You would think so, wouldn't you! Bear in mind that a vacuum tube is a
mechanical structure and not all of the power is part of the signal
path. You have to account for uneven heat, vibration and other
anomalies that all go into what come out. The vagaries of a wimpy,
tube rectified power supply, with hand rolled paper caps should not be
underestimated.

Purists will also insist that point to point wiring sounds different
than circuit board construction. They may be right about that in some
cases. Sounds crazy, though...


I'll buy into the point to point wiring. An important critera used in
high
quality tube amps was to design the chassis so the signal wiring was as
far
away as possible from the power wiring. And, if you noted any funny
noises
or distortion, you could always re-route the wires.

As for the power supply, I am still not convinced a tube rectifier is
going
to sound (or display on an O'scope) any different than solid state, if
measured at the filter stage or any B+ test point. The audio
amplifiers
certainly are different between solid state and tubes and that is
readily
noticeable, even by people with tin ears.
But 300 volts DC?

Well, good points every one.

However, I can tell the difference between, say, my Mac 50s and a
similar power level solid state monoblock.

And I know others who can.

So there must be something to it.

Maybe it's all in our heads.

Mine's certainly empty enough. :)


Solid state did great things in the 1940's. Magnetic Amps controlled the
16" guns on the battleships. But Russia used microtubes / micro-valves
for
the English, in their ICBMs and other rockets.


In a nuclear attack, the Russian vacuum tube guidance systems have a
clear advantage, as they would still work.


Yes they would survive the EMP. But they also did not have the capability
at the time to produce chips. When they went to an I think 8080 chip in one
of their missiles was a direct copy of a US one. They probably got stolen
masks as there was bad circuit in the design and was just wired around. The
bad circuit with wire around was in the Russian built chip.

Even the geek who has everything...
 

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:10:40 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:31:08 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:42:06 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


wrote in message
om...
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:50:49 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:


wrote in message
news:8vtla4plfhaak7i04po0j6tculgmppjguu@4ax .com...



Yes, and solid state pre amps and power amps are cleaner than tube
amps, as well. Clean and accurate reproduction is not necessarily
the
objective with tube amplifiers for musical instrument amplification.

How the power is delivered to tubes can measurably affect things
such
as rise time and decay. I'm not promising that you can actually hear
the difference, but purists will swear they can even if it is a
physiological impossibility.


If you think about it though, the "power" is really being delivered by
one
or more big filter capacitors. I never asked one if it cared how the
power
got there. At that point, DC is DC.

Eisboch


You would think so, wouldn't you! Bear in mind that a vacuum tube is a
mechanical structure and not all of the power is part of the signal
path. You have to account for uneven heat, vibration and other
anomalies that all go into what come out. The vagaries of a wimpy,
tube rectified power supply, with hand rolled paper caps should not be
underestimated.

Purists will also insist that point to point wiring sounds different
than circuit board construction. They may be right about that in some
cases. Sounds crazy, though...


I'll buy into the point to point wiring. An important critera used in
high
quality tube amps was to design the chassis so the signal wiring was as
far
away as possible from the power wiring. And, if you noted any funny
noises
or distortion, you could always re-route the wires.

As for the power supply, I am still not convinced a tube rectifier is
going
to sound (or display on an O'scope) any different than solid state, if
measured at the filter stage or any B+ test point. The audio
amplifiers
certainly are different between solid state and tubes and that is
readily
noticeable, even by people with tin ears.
But 300 volts DC?

Well, good points every one.

However, I can tell the difference between, say, my Mac 50s and a
similar power level solid state monoblock.

And I know others who can.

So there must be something to it.

Maybe it's all in our heads.

Mine's certainly empty enough. :)


Solid state did great things in the 1940's. Magnetic Amps controlled the
16" guns on the battleships. But Russia used microtubes / micro-valves
for
the English, in their ICBMs and other rockets.


In a nuclear attack, the Russian vacuum tube guidance systems have a
clear advantage, as they would still work.


Yes they would survive the EMP. But they also did not have the capability
at the time to produce chips. When they went to an I think 8080 chip in one
of their missiles was a direct copy of a US one. They probably got stolen
masks as there was bad circuit in the design and was just wired around. The
bad circuit with wire around was in the Russian built chip.

Even the geek who has everything...
 

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:07:51 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
m...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
m...



And you forgot about the old Silicon Rectifiers.


You probably mean the old Selenium Rectifiers. The ones that stunk like
rotten eggs when they went bad.

Eisboch


Damn senior moments. Should not forget Selenium as it is a major toxin in
the Central Valley of Calif.

Plants pick it up and concentrate it. Problem is, livestock eat the
plants. At least half the elements are toxic, nearly everything
heavier than iron. Silver is toxic. They can only use it for skull
plates, pins in bones etc, because it is insoluble. You are not
allowed to dump spent photo fixer in commercial quantities into the
sewers, because of the silver.

Casady

Even the geek who has everything...
 

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:10:40 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

They probably got stolen
masks as there was bad circuit in the design and was just wired around. The
bad circuit with wire around was in the Russian built chip.

The must have got the masks, since reverse engineering a chip is
impossible. I understand eight or more layers are common. To digress,I
wouldn't mind having a five by five foot high resolution photo of one
to hang on the wall.

Casady

Even the geek who has everything...
 

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 10:26:42 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The above post by you just showed up on Gene's server, along with some of
the thread started by Harry, although his original post isn't here ... yet

What news reader are you using?

Everything coming from Gene's server (I assume it's Gene's server)
doesn't thread properly in Agent.

Even the geek who has everything...
 

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:07:51 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
om...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
m...



And you forgot about the old Silicon Rectifiers.


You probably mean the old Selenium Rectifiers. The ones that stunk like
rotten eggs when they went bad.

Eisboch


Damn senior moments. Should not forget Selenium as it is a major toxin in
the Central Valley of Calif.

Plants pick it up and concentrate it. Problem is, livestock eat the
plants. At least half the elements are toxic, nearly everything
heavier than iron. Silver is toxic. They can only use it for skull
plates, pins in bones etc, because it is insoluble. You are not
allowed to dump spent photo fixer in commercial quantities into the
sewers, because of the silver.

Casady

The coastal hills in Calif have lots of selenium and the irrigation
practices tend to bring lots of salts and the included selenium to the
farms. The use drains in the fields to remove the salts and the
concentration ponds are extremely toxic. They now do not allow anything to
grow around the pond, to keep the birds from nesting there.

Even the geek who has everything...
 

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:10:40 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

They probably got stolen
masks as there was bad circuit in the design and was just wired around.
The
bad circuit with wire around was in the Russian built chip.

The must have got the masks, since reverse engineering a chip is
impossible. I understand eight or more layers are common. To digress,I
wouldn't mind having a five by five foot high resolution photo of one
to hang on the wall.

Casady

I have 8x11 shots of DSP's. Even a few DSP's from a wafer. The wafer over
the years has gotten more and more broken. Was an Apps engineer for TI in
one of my careers. 8080 probably only had 4-6 layers. Reverse engineering
is not impossible, just not financially practical. We actually opened up
chips and changed connections on prototype custom chips. Mostly when the
customer screwed up. They design the chip and run simulations. And they
forget to connect a section to another output stage.

Even the geek who has everything...
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 10:26:42 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The above post by you just showed up on Gene's server, along with some of
the thread started by Harry, although his original post isn't here ... yet

What news reader are you using?

Everything coming from Gene's server (I assume it's Gene's server)
doesn't thread properly in Agent.

Many don't thread correctly in OE either. That applies to msgs posted thru
the greatnowhere.com server and retrieved from giganews in my case.

Even the geek who has everything...
 

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 01:41:22 +0000, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:


Everything coming from Gene's server (I assume it's Gene's server)
doesn't thread properly in Agent.

Threading is done on the References Header. Anything looking funky there?