OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

"Bill Cole" wrote in message
.net...
Does Harry believe you should only buy Union Made products? If so
I
am
sure
he must have checked the UAW web site before buying a non union
made
product. Are you sure he drive a Tundra?

Sure? How can you be sure of anything on usenet? I'm not even sure
his
name is Harry...or that he owns a lobster boat. If we take him at
his
word,
however, then he does indeed drive a non-union Tundra.


What the **** is the difference? If you want a Toyota, you buy one
whether
they're union made or not. If you want a piece of crap designed to
drive
you
mad with mickey mouse problems, you buy a Ford, GM or Chrysler
product.


Geez, Doug, you sound like a Republican here. It's Harry that is always
trying to promote the union made label...except when he buys a truck.


I'm not promoting unions. I'm saying that I doubt union/non-union is a
major
factor in the quality of Toyotas. Corporate culture encompasses more than
just one division. I see it all the time in my dealings with various
grocery
chains and wholesalers. The difference, for instance, between people at
Albertson's and Wal-Mart is amazing, in terms of how they do their jobs
and
interact with suppliers and customers. This is no accident, either.

I shop at both and have noticed no difference in the way the employees treat
me.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

bb,
If you go back to a thread from a week or so ago, you'll know that it's
Wal-Mart that Doug has problems with. Somebody must have gotten in his ear
about his comments, because he sure wasn't holding back at that time.


"bb" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:36:51 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

I wish I could comment, but since both are customers, it might not be
wise.


Thanks for the attempt. I can only wonder now which is which.

bb

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...


Geez, Doug, you sound like a Republican here. It's Harry that is
always
trying to promote the union made label...except when he buys a truck.


I'm not promoting unions. I'm saying that I doubt union/non-union is a
major
factor in the quality of Toyotas. Corporate culture encompasses more
than
just one division. I see it all the time in my dealings with various
grocery
chains and wholesalers. The difference, for instance, between people at
Albertson's and Wal-Mart is amazing, in terms of how they do their jobs
and
interact with suppliers and customers. This is no accident, either.

I shop at both and have noticed no difference in the way the employees
treat
me.



Wal Mart's customer experience is highly dependent on the neighborhood. If
it's a place where kids grow up learning no manners or common sense, Wal
Mart has no problem hiring them. Neighboring retailers often will not touch
people like that. That leaves a large pool of rejects for Wal Mart to hire.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...


You're partially correct. Most car makers own machinery which can be
set
up
for excellent tolerances. Even so, bad parts get made. At that point,
the
humans make the choice of whether to reject parts or use them. Among
other
things, this explains why the exhaust from so many relatively new
Chrysler
vans smells like they're 15 years old.


Read this article Doug. It explains a lot about "why" bad parts
sometimes
get overlooked in union factories.

http://www.time.com/time/globalbusin...451002,00.html



Interesting article, but the most poignant bit was "hard-earned
reputations
for quality". I owned American cars for many years. At one point, my Ford
had caused me to be late for work about 15 times in a year. Fortunately, I
had an understanding boss. When I began shopping for a new car, a Toyota,
my
brother in law, who's a dumb ****, kept harping at me about how I was
putting Americans out of work. I explained to him that my American car was
going to put ME out of work. He never understood, even though the
transmission on his Buick Regal had just died after 50,000 miles.

Meanwhile, I bought an '82 Tercel, which went 220,000 miles before someone
smacked into it from behind and wasted it. The car had NO unusual
problems,
and the only body rust was where I drilled an antenna hole and didn't goop
it properly. At 200k miles, the mechanic thought it might be a good idea
to
check compression. It was still within spec, perfectly even across all 4
cylinders. And, I still had the same partially used quart of oil I started
with on the day I bought the car. I never needed to add more than a couple
of ounces.

If I have to pay an extra thou or two for a Toyota, it's worth it because
I
know the vehicle won't waste my time.

I attribute the quality differences to several things. If you read the
article, you saw where it said Cadillac is #2 in initial quality...second
only to Lexus (toyota). They attribute it to Cadillac's recent adoption of
"flexible assembly"...things like the ability of any line-worker to stop the
line dead if he/she sees any quality issue or defect. Unions have so far
prevented this in most of the factories they have a presence in. That's the
main thing I attribute the quality differences to. It costs $300 to 500
more per vehicle to make a Chrysler, Ford, or GM car. Obviously, that
difference has to be made up somewhere...and it probably is coming off of
the quality of the parts/materials.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"jps" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
. ..
Sure, Don. We now have CAD/CAM milling machines that mill out a crown
in
about 15 minutes. It removes several areas of potential human error
such
as
taking the impression, blocking out undercuts, trimming a die, and
casting/firing at the right temperature and conditions. Of course, a
dentist will still need to numb your tooth and drill it to the proper
shape
before the machine can do it's job...unless you'd prefer to stick your
head
into the machine. In your case, however, it would probably have a hard
time
penetrating the solid granite you call a brain.


You sure are a mean-spirited piece of trash. Not surprising for a
conservative from Florida...

Don is a lemming. He's always around for a "yeah-what-he-said", but never
fights his own battles.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...
bb,
If you go back to a thread from a week or so ago, you'll know that it's
Wal-Mart that Doug has problems with. Somebody must have gotten in his
ear
about his comments, because he sure wasn't holding back at that time.


If I recall correctly (who knows?), last week's remarks were based primarily
on my personal experiences with the store closest to my home. These
experiences have been consistently horrible.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...


I wish I could comment, but since both are customers, it might not be
wise.
All I can say is that in conversations with all the sales staff here,
every
one of us finds one of the companies a pleasure to deal with, even when
they're telling us they can't buy from us for one reason or another.
It's
a
culture of constructiveness and problem solving. The other company -
it's
like trying to sell to the federal government. Miles of red tape and
stupidity, which doesn't work when you're dealing with truckloads of
perishable groceries.

I can see where this matters with produce, meats, etc. but for
non-perishables, what's the difference? The consumers that shop at the
stores really are just interested in who has the better price on those
items. Wal-Mart should stick to what it does best...and selling meat and
vegetables ain't it.


For perishables, it matters because if a company has absurd logistical
requirements which change with the position of the moon and stars, groceries
may (and do) end up sitting in trucks under less than ideal conditions. And,
browse your own pantry cabinets and think about which so-called "dry
grocery" products would suffer if left in your automobile trunk for three
days in the summer. These things affect the consumer directly, and there are
stores which do as much as possible to minimize such situations.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...


I wish I could comment, but since both are customers, it might not be
wise.
All I can say is that in conversations with all the sales staff here,
every
one of us finds one of the companies a pleasure to deal with, even
when
they're telling us they can't buy from us for one reason or another.
It's
a
culture of constructiveness and problem solving. The other company -
it's
like trying to sell to the federal government. Miles of red tape and
stupidity, which doesn't work when you're dealing with truckloads of
perishable groceries.

I can see where this matters with produce, meats, etc. but for
non-perishables, what's the difference? The consumers that shop at the
stores really are just interested in who has the better price on those
items. Wal-Mart should stick to what it does best...and selling meat
and
vegetables ain't it.


For perishables, it matters because if a company has absurd logistical
requirements which change with the position of the moon and stars,
groceries
may (and do) end up sitting in trucks under less than ideal conditions.
And,
browse your own pantry cabinets and think about which so-called "dry
grocery" products would suffer if left in your automobile trunk for three
days in the summer. These things affect the consumer directly, and there
are
stores which do as much as possible to minimize such situations.


I can see your point on food items. Where do you stand on Wal-Mart's
non-food items? To me, they're the same things you can buy anywhere else,
but Wal-Mart sells 'em for less...and has a very generous return policy if
they are defective or don't fit your needs. What more could you want?

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"NOYB" wrote in message
hlink.net...


I wish I could comment, but since both are customers, it might not
be
wise.
All I can say is that in conversations with all the sales staff
here,
every
one of us finds one of the companies a pleasure to deal with, even
when
they're telling us they can't buy from us for one reason or another.
It's
a
culture of constructiveness and problem solving. The other
ompany -
it's
like trying to sell to the federal government. Miles of red tape and
stupidity, which doesn't work when you're dealing with truckloads of
perishable groceries.

I can see where this matters with produce, meats, etc. but for
non-perishables, what's the difference? The consumers that shop at
the
stores really are just interested in who has the better price on those
items. Wal-Mart should stick to what it does best...and selling meat
and
vegetables ain't it.


For perishables, it matters because if a company has absurd logistical
requirements which change with the position of the moon and stars,
groceries
may (and do) end up sitting in trucks under less than ideal conditions.
And,
browse your own pantry cabinets and think about which so-called "dry
grocery" products would suffer if left in your automobile trunk for
three
days in the summer. These things affect the consumer directly, and there
are
stores which do as much as possible to minimize such situations.


I can see your point on food items. Where do you stand on Wal-Mart's
non-food items? To me, they're the same things you can buy anywhere else,
but Wal-Mart sells 'em for less...and has a very generous return policy if
they are defective or don't fit your needs. What more could you want?

An article in Inc. Magazine a couple of years ago made WM look hideous with
regard to the returns you mention. As an example, they used a company which
makes electric garage door openers. As you probably know, this is not the
kind of item that the average consumer can install easily or correctly. And,
stores like Sears & Home Depot are not going to install things purchased
elsewhere. So, WM took back quite a few of these things as no-hassle
returns. Unfortunately for the manufacturer, WM apparently doesn't inspect
returns, so the mfr received boxes containing rocks & bricks, or boxes with
major, expensive parts missing or irreparably damaged. Their contract with
WM specified that WM would reimburse the mfr for such things. In this case,
the mfr waited a year for over $100k worth of damages. The article said this
is not uncommon - quite a few companies give up selling to WM because it's
not worth the trouble.

You, the consumer, pay for this eventually, in one way or another. Perhaps
prices go up as manufacturers self-insure themselves against such losses.
Or, the better quality goods are no longer sold at WM, so if you're still
convinced to must shop there, you can choose from a smaller pool of options.

There is no free lunch.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

I attribute the quality differences to several things. If you read the
article, you saw where it said Cadillac is #2 in initial quality...second
only to Lexus (toyota). They attribute it to Cadillac's recent adoption
of
"flexible assembly"...things like the ability of any line-worker to stop
the
line dead if he/she sees any quality issue or defect. Unions have so far
prevented this in most of the factories they have a presence in. That's
the
main thing I attribute the quality differences to. It costs $300 to 500
more per vehicle to make a Chrysler, Ford, or GM car. Obviously, that
difference has to be made up somewhere...and it probably is coming off of
the quality of the parts/materials.

NOYB,
At Ford's Romeo Engine Plant, any worker who sees a defect is "expected"
to stop the line. I work there, and the last thing we want to produce is a
faulty product. It comes down to job pride and job security. I'm an
electrician there and I can tell you that quality is job one.
Paul

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

Excellent news Paul. I guess that's why the domestics have closed the gap
(and sometimes surpassed) the imports in initial quality. How long have you
been there? Was there a time when that policy wasn't the norm?

How about the other issues mentioned in the Time magazine article? (ie-line
workers with broader job classifications and training to do preventive
maintenance). Can an assembly worker change a fuse, for instance...or does
this require a "skilled tradesman"? If Ford, GM, and Chrysler's unions are
allowing these things now, then kudos to them.


Here's an excerpt:

"But job classifications at transplant factories are broader. Line workers
are trained in a variety of tasks - say, spot welding as well as interior
assembly - and they rotate jobs frequently. They're less susceptible to
boredom and repetitive-stress injuries. They're also trained to do
preventive maintenance. At Toyota plants, every assembly-line worker has the
authority to stop the line if he or she spots, say, a flaw in a windshield.
More important, workers are encouraged by management to do so.
The long and often bitter relationship between the Big Three and the UAW
means that their work practices are rooted not in mutual trust but in a
system of sometimes picky rules. A "skilled tradesman" may be required to
change a fuse in an assembly-line machine, a task that an assembly worker
could easily be trained to perform. Work rules differ from plant to plant
because agreements are negotiated with local union leaders. If a tradesman
notices a line worker fiddling with equipment, he may file a grievance,
claiming that his job is being undercut by a lower-paid employee."



"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

I attribute the quality differences to several things. If you read the
article, you saw where it said Cadillac is #2 in initial
quality...second
only to Lexus (toyota). They attribute it to Cadillac's recent adoption
of
"flexible assembly"...things like the ability of any line-worker to stop
the
line dead if he/she sees any quality issue or defect. Unions have so
far
prevented this in most of the factories they have a presence in. That's
the
main thing I attribute the quality differences to. It costs $300 to 500
more per vehicle to make a Chrysler, Ford, or GM car. Obviously, that
difference has to be made up somewhere...and it probably is coming off
of
the quality of the parts/materials.

NOYB,
At Ford's Romeo Engine Plant, any worker who sees a defect is
"expected"
to stop the line. I work there, and the last thing we want to produce is
a
faulty product. It comes down to job pride and job security. I'm an
electrician there and I can tell you that quality is job one.
Paul

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

I'll wait my turn.
The more 'needy' in the group can go first.

Jim wrote in message
news:dLa5b.335441$YN5.229609@sccrnsc01...
Bright idea...take away the dentist and automate it. Just put your head
in this little
machine and say ahhhh.

Maybe brain surgery can be automated next. You want to be the first
patient Don?

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

NOYB wrote:

I can't remember...but you sure did have not-so-nice words to say about 'em.

As an aside...
Harry's been on my back about not posting my real name on here. Well, the
problem with posting your real name is that it tends to temper the opinions
you might post here. You held back giving your honest opinion out of fear
some lunatic here would pass along your comments to Wal-Mart. To me, that's
enough reason to stay anonymous.

Yeah, like I temper my opinions here because I post with my real name.
Another crock from HappyTooth.

You don't post with your name here because you know you will lose
customers if they were aware of your self-centered, selfish,
anti-humanistic feelings.



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

Isn't that what your Dubya Bush is looking for?
Other countries to jump on your coattails shouting rah rah to support the
'home team' in your questionable adventures.
I thought you Jr Republicans would appreciate that.

NOYB wrote in message
hlink.net...
Don is a lemming. He's always around for a "yeah-what-he-said", but never
fights his own battles.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Isn't that what your Dubya Bush is looking for?
Other countries to jump on your coattails shouting rah rah to support the
'home team' in your questionable adventures.
I thought you Jr Republicans would appreciate that.


Nope, your country is a prime example. We went it without you. But we really did not
need a bunch of no brain canooks anyway.

So are you ready for your automated teeth cleaning Don? Stick your head in the box and
open wide.

That was one fantastic idea Don. I am sure it will catch on fast in Canada.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

Harry, Who are you customers? Who do your contacts at those customers?

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:

Isn't that what your Dubya Bush is looking for?
Other countries to jump on your coattails shouting rah rah to support
the
'home team' in your questionable adventures.
I thought you Jr Republicans would appreciate that.

NOYB wrote in message
hlink.net...
Don is a lemming. He's always around for a "yeah-what-he-said", but
never
fights his own battles.








I don't know for sure, but I bet Don White is the name of a real
individual here. Whereas NOYB is the handle of a fellow who is afraid
his beliefs will cost him customers.



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

Harry,
You only keep company with like-minded individuals who share your hate of
conservatives, capitalism, and Republicans. It's easy to say whatever you
want when you have a "job" where the sole purpose is to promote class
warfare, spread false propaganda, and enhance the left's hatred of
Republicans.

You intend to do an article about how the Bush tax cut hasn't created jobs
in the 750 companies that are being polled on the matter. How many of the
people in these companies do you think would be receptive to your questions
if they knew you and what you stand for? Or if they have read the **** you
post here?

Your "job" deals with political issues. Mine doesn't. I come here for
amusement and to stoke the fire a little. What I say here has no
correlation with the level of professionalism that each and every patient in
my office receives. When they walk through my door, they're
"patients"...not Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives, straight,
gay, adulterers, union members, non-union members, black, white, etc. I know
the difference between harmless bickering on Usenet, and real-life
interaction. I know that you know the difference as well. That's why, if
you and I ever met and went fishing, we'd probably have a decent time...with
a lot of zingers flying back and forth. I'm not so sure many individuals do
know the difference, however. basskisser, for instance, really does have
some "issues" that could be helped with counseling. Something read out of
context on the internet has the ability to send some loony over the edge.
It's the same reason you refuse to post pictures of your lobster boat.
You've said before that you're afraid some nut case might take a pot shot at
you while you're on the water.

Nevertheless, I'll remain anonymous...and keep putting you in your place
when needed.





"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

I can't remember...but you sure did have not-so-nice words to say about
'em.

As an aside...
Harry's been on my back about not posting my real name on here. Well,
the
problem with posting your real name is that it tends to temper the
opinions
you might post here. You held back giving your honest opinion out of
fear
some lunatic here would pass along your comments to Wal-Mart. To me,
that's
enough reason to stay anonymous.

Yeah, like I temper my opinions here because I post with my real name.
Another crock from HappyTooth.

You don't post with your name here because you know you will lose
customers if they were aware of your self-centered, selfish,
anti-humanistic feelings.



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:

Isn't that what your Dubya Bush is looking for?
Other countries to jump on your coattails shouting rah rah to support
the
'home team' in your questionable adventures.
I thought you Jr Republicans would appreciate that.

NOYB wrote in message
hlink.net...
Don is a lemming. He's always around for a "yeah-what-he-said", but
never
fights his own battles.








I don't know for sure, but I bet Don White is the name of a real
individual here. Whereas NOYB is the handle of a fellow who is afraid
his beliefs will cost him customers.

If you're truly posting your *real* beliefs on Usenet, then you need
professional help. I come here for entertainment. Some guys, like
basskisser, have such a deep-seated hatred of the right, that it's fun for
me to play Devil's Advocate, stoke the coals, and take *any* stance that is
opposite of theirs. I figured you for my "anti-self"...you do the same, but
on the opposite end of the political spectrum. Now, I'm starting to believe
that you really do believe all of that **** you post here....which makes you
a rather disturbed individual. All the more reason I'll never post under my
real name.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Jim" wrote in message
news:1Sv5b.262535$Oz4.69250@rwcrnsc54...

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Isn't that what your Dubya Bush is looking for?
Other countries to jump on your coattails shouting rah rah to support
the
'home team' in your questionable adventures.
I thought you Jr Republicans would appreciate that.


Nope, your country is a prime example. We went it without you. But we
really did not
need a bunch of no brain canooks anyway.

So are you ready for your automated teeth cleaning Don? Stick your head
in the box and
open wide.

That was one fantastic idea Don. I am sure it will catch on fast in
Canada.

It better. Socialized medicine will drive all of the decent docs away.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

NOYB wrote:

Harry,
You only keep company with like-minded individuals who share your hate of
conservatives, capitalism, and Republicans.

You have no idea with whom I "keep company." I certainly don't have much
use for today's conservatives, but there are some Republicans with whom
I have cordial relationships.


It's easy to say whatever you
want when you have a "job" where the sole purpose is to promote class
warfare, spread false propaganda, and enhance the left's hatred of
Republicans.

Class warfare? Oh, you mean helping the less than wealthy obtain and
hang onto a share of the American dream for themselves and their
children. I plead guilty to that. As for propaganda, nothing I do
compares with the damage done by the Republican Bush political machine.
Republicans generate all the hate they need on their own. My help is not
needed.




You intend to do an article about how the Bush tax cut hasn't created jobs
in the 750 companies that are being polled on the matter.


No, I intend to write an article on the number and location of good jobs
at substantial companies actually created by the Bush tax cuts, or, at
least, connected to them. They are not easy to find.


How many of the
people in these companies do you think would be receptive to your questions
if they knew you and what you stand for? Or if they have read the **** you
post here?

Our surveyors simply are asking executives at various companies what
hiring they have done because of the tax cuts. Their responses will
determine the story.


Your "job" deals with political issues.

Indeed it does.


Nevertheless, I'll remain anonymous...and keep putting you in your place
when needed.


Still delusional, eh?

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

Harry's customers are left-wing, small-market politicians, and left-wing
labor newsletters. He does some PR work trying to clean up the tainted
image of a company (UIllico) that has been involved in shady insider-trading
investments with Global Crossing...the company whose stock gave Democratic
National Chairman Terry McCauliffe a profit of over $12million. Much like
Enron and WorldCom, Global Crossing's top guys are under indictment...as are
several of Ullico's.

Unlike you and I, Bill, Harry really does hate those on the other end of the
political spectrum. He doesn't just come here for amusement. Instead, he
comes here to vent about the frustrations he must feel when he sees
conservatives control all three branches of the government, union membership
plummet to under 15%, and labor bosses under indictment for the very same
acts he chastises Republicans for.

He's really a bitter old man, who, each day, sees his life work going for
naught. That's why the personal attacks get more and more venomous as time
passes. You think it's bad now? Wait until after the 2004 elections. If
he hasn't had a stroke, he's likely to become the next John Malvo.





"Bill Cole" wrote in message
.net...
Harry, Who are you customers? Who do your contacts at those customers?

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:

Isn't that what your Dubya Bush is looking for?
Other countries to jump on your coattails shouting rah rah to support
the
'home team' in your questionable adventures.
I thought you Jr Republicans would appreciate that.

NOYB wrote in message
hlink.net...
Don is a lemming. He's always around for a "yeah-what-he-said", but
never
fights his own battles.








I don't know for sure, but I bet Don White is the name of a real
individual here. Whereas NOYB is the handle of a fellow who is afraid
his beliefs will cost him customers.



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Harry,
You only keep company with like-minded individuals who share your hate
of
conservatives, capitalism, and Republicans.

You have no idea with whom I "keep company." I certainly don't have much
use for today's conservatives, but there are some Republicans with whom
I have cordial relationships.

I feel sorry for them. Do you show them your rec.boats posts?



It's easy to say whatever you
want when you have a "job" where the sole purpose is to promote class
warfare, spread false propaganda, and enhance the left's hatred of
Republicans.

Class warfare? Oh, you mean helping the less than wealthy obtain and
hang onto a share of the American dream for themselves and their
children. I plead guilty to that.

Actually, you plead guilty to the desire for redistribution of
wealth...which, according to a post you made in 2000, is your definition of
Socialism.


..As for propaganda, nothing I do
compares with the damage done by the Republican Bush political machine.
Republicans generate all the hate they need on their own. My help is not
needed.




You intend to do an article about how the Bush tax cut hasn't created
jobs
in the 750 companies that are being polled on the matter.


No, I intend to write an article on the number and location of good jobs
at substantial companies actually created by the Bush tax cuts, or, at
least, connected to them. They are not easy to find.






How many of the
people in these companies do you think would be receptive to your
questions
if they knew you and what you stand for? Or if they have read the ****
you
post here?

Our surveyors simply are asking executives at various companies what
hiring they have done because of the tax cuts. Their responses will
determine the story.

Your "surveyors"? Isn't that a form of anonymity...and doesn't it make you
a hypocrite? The person writing the story (you) is extremely biased, and has
made up his mind before he even reads the responses. I wonder how the
executives would respond if they knew what kind of a person would be writing
a story about their responses? How much "business" (ie--cooperation from
those being interviewed) would *you* lose?



Your "job" deals with political issues.

Indeed it does.


Nevertheless, I'll remain anonymous...and keep putting you in your place
when needed.


Still delusional, eh?

Must be the nitrous...right?

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

NOYB wrote:

Harry's customers are left-wing, small-market politicians

Wrong. All the political candidates I have assisted since 1992 have been
federal office seekers, including several in large states or districts.
I haven't been involved professionally in local-issue politics for 25
years.



, and left-wing
labor newsletters.

Well, actually, labor unions and labor-related organizations generally,
some non-profit, some for profit, and some hopeful of making a profit.
And the occasional construction or architectural oriented magazine. Plus
an organization that is involved in bringing small-scale capitalism to
impoverished residents of disadvantaged countries and in rebuilding
significant cultural landmarks and infrastructure in several
war-devastated countries, and in teaching working poor in these
countries how to build simple housing and arrange for niceties such as
potable water and clean sewage.

My wife, by the way, has as patients several dentists.


--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Harry's customers are left-wing, small-market politicians

Wrong. All the political candidates I have assisted since 1992 have been
federal office seekers, including several in large states or districts.
I haven't been involved professionally in local-issue politics for 25
years.



, and left-wing
labor newsletters.

Well, actually, labor unions and labor-related organizations generally,
some non-profit, some for profit, and some hopeful of making a profit.
And the occasional construction or architectural oriented magazine. Plus
an organization that is involved in bringing small-scale capitalism to
impoverished residents of disadvantaged countries and in rebuilding
significant cultural landmarks and infrastructure in several
war-devastated countries, and in teaching working poor in these
countries how to build simple housing and arrange for niceties such as
potable water and clean sewage.

My wife, by the way, has as patients several dentists.


These days, as bad as things are for them, I'm sure she has a lot more
Democrats as patients...even you, for instance. BTW--How's the NPD
treatment going? You seem to have taken several steps backwards as of late.
Hopefully she'll up your dosage before Friday's employment figures come out.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:



Your "surveyors"? Isn't that a form of anonymity...and doesn't it make
you
a hypocrite?


No, it makes us social scientists. We've retained a major, household
name polling organization to do our research. My interest is in the data
and in afterwards telephone interviewing some of those who indicate a
willingness to discuss their responses further.


You still didn't answer my questions:
How do you think the executives would respond if they knew what kind of a
person would be writing a story about their responses? How much "business"
(ie--cooperation from those being interviewed) would *you* lose?

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:



Your "surveyors"? Isn't that a form of anonymity...and doesn't it make
you
a hypocrite?


No, it makes us social scientists. We've retained a major, household
name polling organization to do our research. My interest is in the data
and in afterwards telephone interviewing some of those who indicate a
willingness to discuss their responses further.


You still didn't answer my questions:
How do you think the executives would respond if they knew what kind of a
person would be writing a story about their responses? How much "business"
(ie--cooperation from those being interviewed) would *you* lose?

I didn't answer your question because it isn't deserving of an answer.


-
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:



Your "surveyors"? Isn't that a form of anonymity...and doesn't it
make
you
a hypocrite?


No, it makes us social scientists. We've retained a major, household
name polling organization to do our research. My interest is in the
data
and in afterwards telephone interviewing some of those who indicate a
willingness to discuss their responses further.


You still didn't answer my questions:
How do you think the executives would respond if they knew what kind of
a
person would be writing a story about their responses? How much
"business"
(ie--cooperation from those being interviewed) would *you* lose?

I didn't answer your question because it isn't deserving of an answer.

....or you didn't like the question...because you wouldn't like the answer.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"NOYB" wrote in message
. ..
Geez...platinum? When I was in school, those guys only had "golden
parachutes".

Sign 'O the times!

Mark Browne


"." .@. wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:34:09 GMT, "Joe" wrote:


the overpaid jackass running the company who is only concerned
with lining his own pockets.

How are they (big 3) lining their pockets if they are losing billions a
year?


Notice this is about "the overpaid jackass running the company"

It is called a platinum parachute and if you don't know how they work
here is a good example.

http://www.businessweek.com/1997/13/b352061.htm

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:



Your "surveyors"? Isn't that a form of anonymity...and doesn't it make
you
a hypocrite?


No, it makes us social scientists. We've retained a major, household
name polling organization to do our research. My interest is in the data
and in afterwards telephone interviewing some of those who indicate a
willingness to discuss their responses further.

The survey is still out in the field, but the preliminary results I've
seen so far - and I haven't looked at any new data for at least a week
or more - doesn't show much in the way of job created that senior
executives relate to the Bush tax cuts.

I would love to see how it turns out; you have my address.

Mark Browne


--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Krause"
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:15 PM
Subject: OT...and a little bit on-topic


NOYB wrote:



Your "surveyors"? Isn't that a form of anonymity...and doesn't it make
you
a hypocrite?


Yes, in both cases. We hire only the surveyors who agree with our political views.
And we want to try to slant the survey so as to make our side look good. So yes, I
guess it does make us a group of hypocrites.

I don't believe it but I finally agree with you. Thank you for bringing that to my
attention.

LOL! Just a bit of "editorial comment" according to the Krause definition.
;-)

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

My wife, by the way, has as patients several dentists.

Translation: My therapist must have some dental patients.

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
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OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

I didn't answer your question because it isn't deserving of an answer.

Translation: Again, I didn't have an answer.

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

NOYB,
I'll have been there this February 15 years. I was the first skilled
trades person hired from the street. Before this plant became an engine
plant it was a tractor plant. The tractor manufacturing was sold to New
Holland, so a lot of the older employees know what it's like to shut down a
plant. I had previously spent 19 years with TRW's steering and suspension
plant before quitting and going to Ford.

The company's policy at the engine plant has always been quality from
day one. They give us an "800" number (that reaches Dearborn) we can call
if quality is being ignored at the plant. This isn't to say we've haven't
ever had problems related to an hourly employee slacking off and not doing
their quality checks which resulted in a customer having to replace an
engine, but I can say that by far most all the employees salaried or hourly
understand that putting a flawless product is tantamount to our survival and
reputation.

In so far as an assembly line worker changing a fuse, that'll never
happen. Two reasons, first the union would be against this for their
position is a skilled trade is a skilled trade, in other words it takes a
fair amount of training. Secondly, the company safety office would have a
fit. NOYB I'll tell you, if I have one frustration or complaint it's the
company's safety office. They're trying to make every job idiot proof, they
just don't understand that they just build better idiots. Darwin's law
never gets a chance to cull the utterly stupid. Okay rant off. Where as
years ago you could climb on panels and machinery or walk the ceiling beams
today that a thing of the past, if they catch you it's a week off with the
unions blessing. This is the same mentality that dictates you can't have
monkey bars at play grounds any more. If some one gets hurt they try to
make rules so that can never happen again in their book there is no such
thing as an accident. When I used to be a car mechanic I was asked how I
skinned my hand, heck I didn't even remember, getting hand bruises while
wrenching on an engine was just a part of the job.
I guess I'm just old school. I'm 56 an have been doing this a while so
it's kind of hard to welcome some of these liability rules that seem made by
lawyers trying to stop a potential lawsuit. Last year I was wearing a short
sleeve shirt as part of my work uniform, this wear I have a fire retardant
thick long sleeve shirt and matching pants that I now have to wear to open
an electrical panel. So where before I wore the short sleeve shirt, now I
wear a tee shirt to stay cool and than have to put on the long sleeve shirt
if I have to open the panel, even if all I want to do is get a print out.
Rules!!!! If it is determined the arc flash potential is of a greater level
I have to don a nomex head baklava with a hard hat and a full face shield
plus 1000 volt rubber gloves with leather gloves on top of these. Can you
say sweat? If I have to go up to one of the primary penthouses, where the
13,200 volts comes in and gets transformed down to 460 volts, I have to wear
what we call the moon suit, this looks like something out of an old space
movie. They've issued me a complete 1000 volt insulated tool kit to work on
live wires, yet we never work on live systems, nor would I. I have great
respect for lineman who do, they literally attach them selves to the wire
and I'm talking 13,200 and up. So in summation, in an effort to keep all of
us safe, the company has spent a ton of money an made my job a lot harder
and time consuming. So the chances of letting a production employee change a
fuse is remote. There is usually a reason a fuse blows and when one does I
make certain checks such as ohming out the motor or wire it blew out on,
just replacing it wouldn't be a good idea. Actually if something stalls a
motor, an overload should pop, not a fuse blow. It's not to say that a
production worker couldn't be trained, but do you want to make an
electrician or a machine repairperson out of all the assemblers?

For example at TRW we had several trades that no longer exist, tin smith
and welder were folded into the millwright trade. At Ford its the same way,
our millwrights are the jack of all trades, welders, riggers, tin smiths. I
have to wonder if the transplants (Honda, Toyoda ect.) will continue this
policy after one of their assemblers while changing a fuse get seriously
hurt and a lawsuit results. Lawsuits are one of my pet peeves, but that's a
whole different subject.

Take care,
Paul
P.S. To keep it somewhat on topic, boat safe. :-)

"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...
Excellent news Paul. I guess that's why the domestics have closed the gap
(and sometimes surpassed) the imports in initial quality. How long have
you
been there? Was there a time when that policy wasn't the norm?

How about the other issues mentioned in the Time magazine article?
(ie-line
workers with broader job classifications and training to do preventive
maintenance). Can an assembly worker change a fuse, for instance...or
does
this require a "skilled tradesman"? If Ford, GM, and Chrysler's unions
are
allowing these things now, then kudos to them.


Here's an excerpt:

"But job classifications at transplant factories are broader. Line workers
are trained in a variety of tasks - say, spot welding as well as interior
assembly - and they rotate jobs frequently. They're less susceptible to
boredom and repetitive-stress injuries. They're also trained to do
preventive maintenance. At Toyota plants, every assembly-line worker has
the
authority to stop the line if he or she spots, say, a flaw in a
windshield.
More important, workers are encouraged by management to do so.
The long and often bitter relationship between the Big Three and the UAW
means that their work practices are rooted not in mutual trust but in a
system of sometimes picky rules. A "skilled tradesman" may be required to
change a fuse in an assembly-line machine, a task that an assembly worker
could easily be trained to perform. Work rules differ from plant to plant
because agreements are negotiated with local union leaders. If a tradesman
notices a line worker fiddling with equipment, he may file a grievance,
claiming that his job is being undercut by a lower-paid employee."



"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

I attribute the quality differences to several things. If you read
the
article, you saw where it said Cadillac is #2 in initial
quality...second
only to Lexus (toyota). They attribute it to Cadillac's recent
adoption
of
"flexible assembly"...things like the ability of any line-worker to
stop
the
line dead if he/she sees any quality issue or defect. Unions have so
far
prevented this in most of the factories they have a presence in.
That's
the
main thing I attribute the quality differences to. It costs $300 to
500
more per vehicle to make a Chrysler, Ford, or GM car. Obviously, that
difference has to be made up somewhere...and it probably is coming off
of
the quality of the parts/materials.

NOYB,
At Ford's Romeo Engine Plant, any worker who sees a defect is
"expected"
to stop the line. I work there, and the last thing we want to produce
is
a
faulty product. It comes down to job pride and job security. I'm an
electrician there and I can tell you that quality is job one.
Paul

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

Why is it now that when I think of dentists, my mind wanders to the film
'Marathon Man' and the sadistic dentist who tortured Dustin Hoffman?

I'd better go see my own to restore my faith in the profession.
note: as far as I know she does not abuse or OD on 'laughing gas'.

NOYB wrote in message
...


It better. Socialized medicine will drive all of the decent docs away.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote in message
...

if I have one frustration or complaint it's the
company's safety office. They're trying to make every job idiot proof,
they
just don't understand that they just build better idiots. Darwin's law
never gets a chance to cull the utterly stupid. Okay rant off. Where as
years ago you could climb on panels and machinery or walk the ceiling
beams
today that a thing of the past, if they catch you it's a week off with the
unions blessing. This is the same mentality that dictates you can't have
monkey bars at play grounds any more.

Speaking of monkey bars...there's a George Carlin routine I have here on
disk ("**** the Children") which, among other things, talks about the
obsession with safety. Funny as hell. It's just under 7mb in size, if anyone
wants a copy. Or, find it online.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

Hey...they're not all like NOYB, or the one you mention in the movie. My
dentist is brilliant.


"Don White" wrote in message
...
Why is it now that when I think of dentists, my mind wanders to the film
'Marathon Man' and the sadistic dentist who tortured Dustin Hoffman?

I'd better go see my own to restore my faith in the profession.
note: as far as I know she does not abuse or OD on 'laughing gas'.

NOYB wrote in message
...


It better. Socialized medicine will drive all of the decent docs away.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Why is it now that when I think of dentists, my mind wanders to the film
'Marathon Man' and the sadistic dentist who tortured Dustin Hoffman?

Perhaps because you had a sadistic dentist when you were a kid?

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

Ask him his political affiliation. No dentist I know makes it a habit of
discussing politics, religion, etc. with his/her patients. I certainly
don't. I get people from both sides of the political spectrum...and both
sides get the same response when they say something extreme or outlandish.
I just smile, nod, and tell 'em to open. Hell, if you vacation and get a
tootache in Naples one day, *you* could sit in my chair and never even know
it. Hard as it might be to imagine, I'd even treat Harry with utmost
respect and professionalism.




"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Hey...they're not all like NOYB, or the one you mention in the movie. My
dentist is brilliant.


"Don White" wrote in message
...
Why is it now that when I think of dentists, my mind wanders to the film
'Marathon Man' and the sadistic dentist who tortured Dustin Hoffman?

I'd better go see my own to restore my faith in the profession.
note: as far as I know she does not abuse or OD on 'laughing gas'.

NOYB wrote in message
...


It better. Socialized medicine will drive all of the decent docs
away.

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

We did. I swear they brought over all the 'research dentists' to work in our
school system in the 50's.
We had big gruff ugly women with heavy accents who barely let the needle
brush your gums before applying the industral sized drill. Quite tramatic
and with no dental coverage, we had to go where the service was 'free'.

NOYB wrote in message
...

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Why is it now that when I think of dentists, my mind wanders to the film
'Marathon Man' and the sadistic dentist who tortured Dustin Hoffman?

Perhaps because you had a sadistic dentist when you were a kid?

OT...and a little bit on-topic
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
We did. I swear they brought over all the 'research dentists' to work in our
school system in the 50's.
We had big gruff ugly women with heavy accents who barely let the needle
brush your gums before applying the industral sized drill. Quite tramatic
and with no dental coverage, we had to go where the service was 'free'.

No dental coverage????? What happened to the wonderful services you union provided
you?