I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:



Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

I'll be casting my vote...
 

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
...

What about a woman forced to risk her life to take a pregnancy to term? Or
a child forced to carry her own father's baby? Is anti-abortion rhetoric
going to help a heroin addict deliver a child with severe mental
deficiencies? Maybe the Christian Coalition would like to adopt all
children born with severe mental and physical deformities, whose life
would only last for a few months? Is this the sanctity of life these
groups extol?

Reproductive rights preserves the rights of the living and often spares an
infant needless suffering. So what is it that the conservatives are
fighting for, anyway? Life at any cost? A utilitarian protection of the
rights of the majority, over the few? Sounds a lot like the ethics of war.
But, then again, that's a conservative value too.


Since you are being rational and non-offensive, I'll offer an opinion.
I recently looked up abortion statistics provided by a pro-abortion
organization.
Less than 1 percent of abortions are performed due to rape.
Something like 3 percent are done due to rape and/or health issues for
mother or unborn.
The rest ... 97 percent ... are done for "convenience".

Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Eisboch




We're going to have to disagree. To me, the decision in the first three
months is something that is entirely within the purview of a pregnant
woman and her doctor. After that, if there is a strong medical reason
for an abortion, it should be allowed. Otherwise, no.

I also am convinced that the majority of those who speak the loudest
about making abortion illegal are not driven by their feelings of
"sanctity" for human life. If they were, it would be more of an absolute
for them. They would be demonstrating and speaking out en masse against
capital punishment, against war, against the conditions that allow
millions of children in this world to live in squalor and die of
starvation and disease. The fact that they are not doing this tells me
that the "sanctity of life" is not the real issue.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic


If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic


If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Feb 15, 6:43*am, HK wrote:
Jim wrote:

How about if I give up on Krause and throw him in the dumper. Will that
make me any smarter?

If you went to Oz and begged, Scarecrow, the wizard might give you a
brain. That would make you smarter.

And if you did the same, they may give you a Zimmerman like lobster
boat, a Yale degree, a Dr. Dr. wife, and on and on....

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:01:09 -0500, HK wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
...

What about a woman forced to risk her life to take a pregnancy to term? Or
a child forced to carry her own father's baby? Is anti-abortion rhetoric
going to help a heroin addict deliver a child with severe mental
deficiencies? Maybe the Christian Coalition would like to adopt all
children born with severe mental and physical deformities, whose life
would only last for a few months? Is this the sanctity of life these
groups extol?

Reproductive rights preserves the rights of the living and often spares an
infant needless suffering. So what is it that the conservatives are
fighting for, anyway? Life at any cost? A utilitarian protection of the
rights of the majority, over the few? Sounds a lot like the ethics of war.
But, then again, that's a conservative value too.


Since you are being rational and non-offensive, I'll offer an opinion.
I recently looked up abortion statistics provided by a pro-abortion
organization.
Less than 1 percent of abortions are performed due to rape.
Something like 3 percent are done due to rape and/or health issues for
mother or unborn.
The rest ... 97 percent ... are done for "convenience".

Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Eisboch




We're going to have to disagree. To me, the decision in the first three
months is something that is entirely within the purview of a pregnant
woman and her doctor. After that, if there is a strong medical reason
for an abortion, it should be allowed. Otherwise, no.

I also am convinced that the majority of those who speak the loudest
about making abortion illegal are not driven by their feelings of
"sanctity" for human life. If they were, it would be more of an absolute
for them. They would be demonstrating and speaking out en masse against
capital punishment, against war, against the conditions that allow
millions of children in this world to live in squalor and die of
starvation and disease. The fact that they are not doing this tells me
that the "sanctity of life" is not the real issue.

Harry, you should try, sometime, to make your arguments without passing
judgement on those who may disagree with you. When you start taking pot
shots at 'the majority....' (leaving out 'you know who' and 'you know
who'), your arguments become nothing more than a personal attack.

You don't 'know' the personal feelings of others. You keep trying to attach
the killing of unborn babies to deaths in combat. There are a couple of
differences. Deaths of innocent civilians in combat are accidental (please,
don't show me the exceptions), and the deaths of combatants is a matter of
choice. They choose to fight and take the risk.

The killing of unborn babies through abortion is not accidental, nor does
the baby have a choice in the situation.

As far as I know, this is the first time you've discussed a 'three month
rule'. At least you're now approaching a position which many may find more
tenable.
--
John H

I'll be casting my vote...
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach
"abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact
of such preaching on young women...

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic


If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

There you go with your generalized attacks again. If men got pregnant,
women would be the providers and lawmakers. Nothing would be changed.
--
John H

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:31:01 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic


If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic

According to the religion in which I was raised, abortion for any reason,
including the health of the mother, is wrong. But, I think I'd have your
attitude if it came to the choice between the baby or the mother. If I had
to make the choice between one of my kids (daughters) or the baby, I'd
choose my kid.
--
John H

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:42:39 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach
"abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact
of such preaching on young women...

Define 'many', 'most', 'with a few exceptions', 'except you of course', and
your other qualifiers. Who are you trying to not **** off?

Maybe you should stick to your opinions and not try to presume what 'many',
'most', or 'except you of course' believe.
--
John H

I'll be casting my vote...
 

"HK" wrote in message
...


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are also
against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and teens, and
against making condoms and other devices easily available to anyone who
wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher
had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact of such preaching on young
women...


I think your first sentence is spot on, although I would add the word,
"responsible" before "thinking".

I have no idea how you arrive at the conclusions in the rest of your post
though. Sure, I read about "extremists" (usually religious fanatics) who
don't like to talk about or believe in birth control, but I don't know any
personally. Most people can differentiate and accept responsible teens and
adults exercising birth control measures, versus "Don't worry about it,
we'll just get an abortion".

Sometimes those in the media place an emphasis on issues that in reality
only applies to a very limited segment of the population. Makes news, you
know.

Eisboch

I'll be casting my vote...
 

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
...

For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are also
against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and teens, and
against making condoms and other devices easily available to anyone who
wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher
had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact of such preaching on young
women...


I think your first sentence is spot on, although I would add the word,
"responsible" before "thinking".

I have no idea how you arrive at the conclusions in the rest of your post
though. Sure, I read about "extremists" (usually religious fanatics) who
don't like to talk about or believe in birth control, but I don't know any
personally. Most people can differentiate and accept responsible teens and
adults exercising birth control measures, versus "Don't worry about it,
we'll just get an abortion".

Sometimes those in the media place an emphasis on issues that in reality
only applies to a very limited segment of the population. Makes news, you
know.

Eisboch



Well, I lived in what is referred to as "the Bible belt" for close to
six years, and encountered large numbers of fanatics who were
anti-abortion *and* anti-birth control. They were everywhere.

As I have stated many times previously, I don't really care much about
what "religious" people practice or preach in their houses of worship or
in their homes. That's their business. My objection is to their shoving
their religious beliefs onto society. We have had too much of that the
last seven years from the Republican right, and, hopefully, that will
all be coming to a screeching halt next January.

I'm not saying the attempts to "shove" will cease, by the way. I'm just
saying that beginning in January 2009 with a Democratic president and a
Democratic congress, the "shovers" are not going to get anywhere. There
will be no attempts to overturn Roe v. Wade that get anywhere.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach
"abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact
of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue.
It would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality
and reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make
abortion illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently
anti-abortion are also against teaching proper birth control methods
to pre-teens and teens, and against making condoms and other devices
easily available to anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones
who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the
actual impact of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.





snerk

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:17:10 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:56:29 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:31:01 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic


If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic

According to the religion in which I was raised, abortion for any reason,
including the health of the mother, is wrong. But, I think I'd have your
attitude if it came to the choice between the baby or the mother. If I had
to make the choice between one of my kids (daughters) or the baby, I'd
choose my kid.

Your morality always boils down to your own self intrests, doesn't it,
John?


If the choice were me or my daughter, I'd still pick my daughter. When the
choice was Vietnam or running to Canada, I went to Vietnam. So, I don't
think your statement is quite true.

But, believe what you will. Harry does.
--
John H

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:45:36 -0500, BAR wrote:

HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach
"abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact
of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.



It sure as hell kept my high-school girlfriends from getting pregnant!
--
John H

I'll be casting my vote...
 

HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell
won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue.
It would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality
and reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make
abortion illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently
anti-abortion are also against teaching proper birth control methods
to pre-teens and teens, and against making condoms and other devices
easily available to anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones
who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the
actual impact of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens
and the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the
rest of her life.





snerk

If I do not commit robbery then I have no reason to be arrested, tried
and jailed.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is
bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell
won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club
that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue.
It would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality
and reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make
abortion illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently
anti-abortion are also against teaching proper birth control methods
to pre-teens and teens, and against making condoms and other devices
easily available to anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones
who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the
actual impact of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens
and the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the
rest of her life.





snerk

If I do not commit robbery then I have no reason to be arrested, tried
and jailed.



Abstinence is mostly practiced by married couples who are bored with
each other.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach "abstinence."
Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact of such
preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.


True, but teaching abstinence has been shown to NOT work well at all.

I assume you're capable of seeing the difference between abstinence, and
teaching abstinence.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic
If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.
Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic

For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach "abstinence."
Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact of such
preaching on young women...

Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.


True, but teaching abstinence has been shown to NOT work well at all.

I assume you're capable of seeing the difference between abstinence, and
teaching abstinence.




Bill Maher sez that the Bush Admin's pressure to teach absence has
resulted in a generation of apple-cheeked girls. Use your imagination.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

"John H." wrote in message
...

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:45:36 -0500, BAR wrote:



Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.


It sure as hell kept my high-school girlfriends from getting pregnant!
--
John H



My mother-in-law told her daughters to hold a nickel between their knees on
dates.

I think my beliefs were influenced by my Dad. He wasn't particularly
religious, so that wasn't a factor.
When I became old enough to notice and start dating girls, he had a little
talk with me. It wasn't the classic "birds and the bee's story .... hell we
all knew *that* one in the 6th grade. His talk was more about controlling
natural desires and being responsible for the results if I didn't. Legal
abortion wasn't an option at that time (pre-Roe v. Wade) . He simply
encouraged me to consider the ramifications to the girl, and to me, and how
it could affect the rest of our lives.

He wasn't progressive enough to hand me my first condom, but made sure I
knew what they were. He also strongly insisted that I always have respect
for women and if I ever didn't, he would personally kick the **** out of me.

At 6'4'' and 225 lbs, I didn't argue with him.

Eisboch

I'll be casting my vote...
 

Eisboch wrote:
"John H." wrote in message
...

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:45:36 -0500, BAR wrote:

Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.

It sure as hell kept my high-school girlfriends from getting pregnant!
--
John H



My mother-in-law told her daughters to hold a nickel between their knees on
dates.

I think my beliefs were influenced by my Dad. He wasn't particularly
religious, so that wasn't a factor.
When I became old enough to notice and start dating girls, he had a little
talk with me. It wasn't the classic "birds and the bee's story .... hell we
all knew *that* one in the 6th grade. His talk was more about controlling
natural desires and being responsible for the results if I didn't. Legal
abortion wasn't an option at that time (pre-Roe v. Wade) . He simply
encouraged me to consider the ramifications to the girl, and to me, and how
it could affect the rest of our lives.

He wasn't progressive enough to hand me my first condom, but made sure I
knew what they were. He also strongly insisted that I always have respect
for women and if I ever didn't, he would personally kick the **** out of me.

At 6'4'' and 225 lbs, I didn't argue with him.

Eisboch




My father and mother told me to be sure I didn't get any girls pregnant.
Then they explained in detail how to use condoms. I was no older than 13.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"John H." wrote in message
...

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:45:36 -0500, BAR wrote:



Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.


It sure as hell kept my high-school girlfriends from getting pregnant!
--
John H



My mother-in-law told her daughters to hold a nickel between their knees
on dates.

I think my beliefs were influenced by my Dad. He wasn't particularly
religious, so that wasn't a factor.
When I became old enough to notice and start dating girls, he had a little
talk with me. It wasn't the classic "birds and the bee's story .... hell
we all knew *that* one in the 6th grade. His talk was more about
controlling natural desires and being responsible for the results if I
didn't. Legal abortion wasn't an option at that time (pre-Roe v. Wade) .
He simply encouraged me to consider the ramifications to the girl, and to
me, and how it could affect the rest of our lives.

He wasn't progressive enough to hand me my first condom, but made sure I
knew what they were. He also strongly insisted that I always have respect
for women and if I ever didn't, he would personally kick the **** out of
me.

At 6'4'' and 225 lbs, I didn't argue with him.

Eisboch


When my son started dating, I told him any girl he dated was instantly and
automatically my new daughter, followed by "Be afraid. Be very afraid."

I'll be casting my vote...
 

"HK" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:

My mother-in-law told her daughters to hold a nickel between their knees
on dates.


My father and mother told me to be sure I didn't get any girls pregnant.
Then they explained in detail how to use condoms. I was no older than 13.


The nickel between the knees was effective. The only problem was on our
first date.
As we walked into the movie theater, I thought the future Mrs.E. was
handicapped.

Eisboch

I'll be casting my vote...
 

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:
My mother-in-law told her daughters to hold a nickel between their knees
on dates.

My father and mother told me to be sure I didn't get any girls pregnant.
Then they explained in detail how to use condoms. I was no older than 13.


The nickel between the knees was effective. The only problem was on our
first date.
As we walked into the movie theater, I thought the future Mrs.E. was
handicapped.

Eisboch



Harry's problem was fighting off the older girls who wanted to seduce
the younger guy.

In my school, the younger girls always wanted to date the older guys.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic
If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.
Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic

For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach "abstinence."
Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact of such
preaching on young women...

Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.


True, but teaching abstinence has been shown to NOT work well at all.

I assume you're capable of seeing the difference between abstinence, and
teaching abstinence.

Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not the
teaching of abstinence.

Instead of working why don't you rob banks?

I'll be casting my vote...
 

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is
bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell
won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club
that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic
If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.
Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic

For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality
and reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make
abortion illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently
anti-abortion are also against teaching proper birth control methods to
pre-teens and teens, and against making condoms and other devices
easily available to anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones
who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the
actual impact of such preaching on young women...

Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.


True, but teaching abstinence has been shown to NOT work well at all.

I assume you're capable of seeing the difference between abstinence, and
teaching abstinence.

Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not the
teaching of abstinence.


Good. I just wanted to make sure you weren't about to suggest that teaching
other contraceptive methods in schools was the same as encouraging kids to
have sex, and that only abstinence should be taught.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

BAR wrote:


Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not the
teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is
bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell
won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club
that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic
If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.
Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic
For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality
and reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make
abortion illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently
anti-abortion are also against teaching proper birth control methods to
pre-teens and teens, and against making condoms and other devices
easily available to anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones
who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the
actual impact of such preaching on young women...

Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.

True, but teaching abstinence has been shown to NOT work well at all.

I assume you're capable of seeing the difference between abstinence, and
teaching abstinence.
Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not the
teaching of abstinence.


Good. I just wanted to make sure you weren't about to suggest that teaching
other contraceptive methods in schools was the same as encouraging kids to
have sex, and that only abstinence should be taught.



Back up there buddy, I don't condone the schools teaching my child how
to use a condom or take the pill. That is my responsibility not the
schools. And, the schools shouldn't be teaching abstinence because they
shouldn't be teaching my kids the birds and the bees either.

My children have been taught about the birds and the bees and
contraceptive methods her at home with all of the additional information
about how succumbing to your base desires at such an early age can
really screw up your life. I have a daughter who wants to go to Harvard
and Oxford and she may just do that but, it would be a hell of lot
harder if she was the mother of a baby or toddler at the time.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

HK wrote:
BAR wrote:


Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not the
teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.

How many times have you been arrested for lewd and lascivious behavior
Harry?

Does your wife, if she exists, know what you do while on your computers?

I'll be casting my vote...
 

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is
bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell
won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club
that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic
If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue.
It would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.
Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make
such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with
a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt
worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she
would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic
For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality
and reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make
abortion illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently
anti-abortion are also against teaching proper birth control methods
to pre-teens and teens, and against making condoms and other devices
easily available to anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones
who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the
actual impact of such preaching on young women...

Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens
and the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the
rest of her life.

True, but teaching abstinence has been shown to NOT work well at all.

I assume you're capable of seeing the difference between abstinence,
and teaching abstinence.
Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not the
teaching of abstinence.


Good. I just wanted to make sure you weren't about to suggest that
teaching other contraceptive methods in schools was the same as
encouraging kids to have sex, and that only abstinence should be taught.

Back up there buddy, I don't condone the schools teaching my child how to
use a condom or take the pill. That is my responsibility not the schools.
And, the schools shouldn't be teaching abstinence because they shouldn't
be teaching my kids the birds and the bees either.

My children have been taught about the birds and the bees and
contraceptive methods her at home with all of the additional information
about how succumbing to your base desires at such an early age can really
screw up your life. I have a daughter who wants to go to Harvard and
Oxford and she may just do that but, it would be a hell of lot harder if
she was the mother of a baby or toddler at the time.



Just one problem he An annoyingly high percentage of teenagers get no
sex information from ANY responsible adult outside of the schools.

What do you think about that? Don't argue with the truth of the statement.
Just tell me what you think about the fact I stated.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

"HK" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:


Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not the
teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.


Probably why he's so constipated all the time.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:


Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not the
teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.

How many times have you been arrested for lewd and lascivious behavior
Harry?

Does your wife, if she exists, know what you do while on your computers?



If you were culturally literate, you'd recognize that as a take-off of a
line from the one and only Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper. You remind me of
him. Know of General Ripper?

"Ripper:

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical
act of love.

Mandrake:

sighs fearfully

Ripper:

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed.
Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of essence.

Mandrake:

Yes...

RiRipper:

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women... women sense my
power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake,
but I do deny them my essence.

Mandrake:

Heh heh... yes. "

I'll be casting my vote...
 

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:


Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not the
teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.

How many times have you been arrested for lewd and lascivious behavior
Harry?

Does your wife, if she exists, know what you do while on your computers?



If you were culturally literate, you'd recognize that as a take-off of a
line from the one and only Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper. You remind me of
him. Know of General Ripper?

"Ripper:

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical
act of love.

Mandrake:

sighs fearfully

Ripper:

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily
I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of essence.

Mandrake:

Yes...

RiRipper:

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women... women sense my
power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake,
but I do deny them my essence.

Mandrake:

Heh heh... yes. "

If you ever get evaluated by a real psychiatrist he will most surely
recommend that you be involuntarily committed to a psychiatric
institution.


What a freaking liar. Ask him about Peggy or Delores. (The women he was
caught stalking). Probably would have stalked Karen too if he could have.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

Jim wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:


Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not
the teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.

How many times have you been arrested for lewd and lascivious
behavior Harry?

Does your wife, if she exists, know what you do while on your
computers?



If you were culturally literate, you'd recognize that as a take-off
of a line from the one and only Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper. You remind
me of him. Know of General Ripper?

"Ripper:

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the
physical act of love.

Mandrake:

sighs fearfully

Ripper:

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed.
Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of
essence.

Mandrake:

Yes...

RiRipper:

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women... women sense
my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women,
Mandrake, but I do deny them my essence.

Mandrake:

Heh heh... yes. "

If you ever get evaluated by a real psychiatrist he will most surely
recommend that you be involuntarily committed to a psychiatric
institution.


What a freaking liar. Ask him about Peggy or Delores. (The women he was
caught stalking). Probably would have stalked Karen too if he could have.


Are you saying you are more like General Ripper than Bertie is?

BTW, what sort of boat did you say you had?

I'll be casting my vote...
 

HK wrote:
Jim wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:


Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part, not
the teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.

How many times have you been arrested for lewd and lascivious
behavior Harry?

Does your wife, if she exists, know what you do while on your
computers?



If you were culturally literate, you'd recognize that as a take-off
of a line from the one and only Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper. You
remind me of him. Know of General Ripper?

"Ripper:

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the
physical act of love.

Mandrake:

sighs fearfully

Ripper:

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed.
Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of
essence.

Mandrake:

Yes...

RiRipper:

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women... women sense
my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women,
Mandrake, but I do deny them my essence.

Mandrake:

Heh heh... yes. "

If you ever get evaluated by a real psychiatrist he will most surely
recommend that you be involuntarily committed to a psychiatric
institution.


What a freaking liar. Ask him about Peggy or Delores. (The women he
was caught stalking). Probably would have stalked Karen too if he
could have.


Are you saying you are more like General Ripper than Bertie is?

BTW, what sort of boat did you say you had?


Why don't you show us a picture of the 36' Zimmerman like Lobsta' boat?

You took a picture of your GPS why not your boat?

I'll be casting my vote...
 

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Jim wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:


Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part,
not the teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.

How many times have you been arrested for lewd and lascivious
behavior Harry?

Does your wife, if she exists, know what you do while on your
computers?



If you were culturally literate, you'd recognize that as a take-off
of a line from the one and only Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper. You
remind me of him. Know of General Ripper?

"Ripper:

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the
physical act of love.

Mandrake:

sighs fearfully

Ripper:

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed.
Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of
essence.

Mandrake:

Yes...

RiRipper:

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women... women
sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid
women, Mandrake, but I do deny them my essence.

Mandrake:

Heh heh... yes. "

If you ever get evaluated by a real psychiatrist he will most surely
recommend that you be involuntarily committed to a psychiatric
institution.


What a freaking liar. Ask him about Peggy or Delores. (The women he
was caught stalking). Probably would have stalked Karen too if he
could have.


Are you saying you are more like General Ripper than Bertie is?

BTW, what sort of boat did you say you had?


Why don't you show us a picture of the 36' Zimmerman like Lobsta' boat?

You took a picture of your GPS why not your boat?



Is Skipper dead? I said I would do so once I had indisputable proof
Skipper was dead.

You see, Bertiepoop, I play by *my* rules, not yours.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:18:35 -0500, HK wrote:

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Jim wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:


Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part,
not the teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.

How many times have you been arrested for lewd and lascivious
behavior Harry?

Does your wife, if she exists, know what you do while on your
computers?



If you were culturally literate, you'd recognize that as a take-off
of a line from the one and only Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper. You
remind me of him. Know of General Ripper?

"Ripper:

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the
physical act of love.

Mandrake:

sighs fearfully

Ripper:

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed.
Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of
essence.

Mandrake:

Yes...

RiRipper:

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women... women
sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid
women, Mandrake, but I do deny them my essence.

Mandrake:

Heh heh... yes. "

If you ever get evaluated by a real psychiatrist he will most surely
recommend that you be involuntarily committed to a psychiatric
institution.


What a freaking liar. Ask him about Peggy or Delores. (The women he
was caught stalking). Probably would have stalked Karen too if he
could have.


Are you saying you are more like General Ripper than Bertie is?

BTW, what sort of boat did you say you had?


Why don't you show us a picture of the 36' Zimmerman like Lobsta' boat?

You took a picture of your GPS why not your boat?



Is Skipper dead? I said I would do so once I had indisputable proof
Skipper was dead.

You see, Bertiepoop, I play by *my* rules, not yours.

Looks like you're down to one or two now, Harry.
--
John H

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Feb 15, 3:18*pm, HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Jim wrote:

"BAR" wrote in message
om...
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:

Learning to control ones physical urges is the the hard part,
not the teaching of abstinence.

I'll bet you are really into preserving your precious bodily fluids.

How many times have you been arrested for lewd and lascivious
behavior Harry?

Does your wife, if she exists, know what you do while on your
computers?

If you were culturally literate, you'd recognize that as a take-off
of a line from the one and only Brig. Gen. Jack D. Ripper. You
remind me of him. Know of General Ripper?

"Ripper:

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the
physical act of love.

Mandrake:

sighs fearfully

Ripper:

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed.
Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of
essence.

Mandrake:

Yes...

RiRipper:

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women... women
sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid
women, Mandrake, but I do deny them my essence.

Mandrake:

Heh heh... yes. "

If you ever get evaluated by a real psychiatrist he will most surely
recommend that you be involuntarily committed to a psychiatric
institution.

What a freaking liar. Ask him about Peggy or Delores. (The women he
was caught stalking). Probably would have stalked Karen too if he
could have.

Are you saying you are more like General Ripper than Bertie is?

BTW, what sort of boat did you say you had?

Why don't you show us a picture of the 36' Zimmerman like Lobsta' boat?

You took a picture of your GPS why not your boat?

Is Skipper dead? I said I would do so once I had indisputable proof
Skipper was dead.

You see, Bertiepoop, I play by *my* rules, not yours.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Harry, don't even worry. We all know you are the biggest liar here.

I'll be casting my vote...
 

On Feb 12, 4:50*pm, HK wrote:
...for the next president of the United States in about 20 minutes.

The long national nightmare of George W. Bush is almost over. With luck
and prayers, we will make it until January of next year and will be able
to start undoing some of the horrific damage Bush has inflicted upon
this nation and the world.

See...a non-boating related post.