On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Right - but how did that model engine lubricate the main and rod
bearings, and the wrist pins and piston bores? If they were misting
the fuel into the crankcase as a bearing lubricant before it got
inducted and burned as the fuel, that isn't a true Diesel engine, it's
a modified Glow-Plug engine.

And how did they get the crankcase pumping effect to work on a
multi-cylinder engine where one piston is going down when the next is
going up? The glow-plug engine would need solid dividers between the
crankcase sections so each piston pumps for itself.

The Detroits have an open crankcase, so no pump effect. And they
use conventional pressure oil lubrication, plus most diesels have an
oil jet aimed at the underside of the piston for cooling and wrist pin
lube - not sure, but Detroits have to do it like everyone else... If
any of that motor oil in the crankcase was to accidentally get into
the cylinder intake air, you have a runaway engine.

Same thing if an oil seal on the blower or the Turbocharger (if
equipped) blows and starts dumping motor oil into the intake - a
runaway engine that will soon "Go Splodey" when it exceeds redline by
a sufficient amount.

This is why they have that Emergency Shutdown air damper on the air
intake, that's the only way to kill a diesel engine if the oil it is
running on isn't coming in through the fuel injectors.

-- Bruce --

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:10:26 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Right - but how did that model engine lubricate the main and rod
bearings, and the wrist pins and piston bores? If they were misting
the fuel into the crankcase as a bearing lubricant before it got
inducted and burned as the fuel, that isn't a true Diesel engine, it's
a modified Glow-Plug engine.

Well, a diesel is defined as a compression ignition engine and the
diesel model airplane engines are just that so they too are diesel
engines.

And how did they get the crankcase pumping effect to work on a
multi-cylinder engine where one piston is going down when the next is
going up? The glow-plug engine would need solid dividers between the
crankcase sections so each piston pumps for itself.

True and multi cylinder 2-stroke engines do have a separator between
each cylinder.

The Detroits have an open crankcase, so no pump effect. And they
use conventional pressure oil lubrication, plus most diesels have an
oil jet aimed at the underside of the piston for cooling and wrist pin
lube - not sure, but Detroits have to do it like everyone else... If
any of that motor oil in the crankcase was to accidentally get into
the cylinder intake air, you have a runaway engine.

Same thing if an oil seal on the blower or the Turbocharger (if
equipped) blows and starts dumping motor oil into the intake - a
runaway engine that will soon "Go Splodey" when it exceeds redline by
a sufficient amount.

This is why they have that Emergency Shutdown air damper on the air
intake, that's the only way to kill a diesel engine if the oil it is
running on isn't coming in through the fuel injectors.

-- Bruce --

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Right - but how did that model engine lubricate the main and rod
bearings, and the wrist pins and piston bores? If they were misting
the fuel into the crankcase as a bearing lubricant before it got
inducted and burned as the fuel, that isn't a true Diesel engine, it's
a modified Glow-Plug engine.

And how did they get the crankcase pumping effect to work on a
multi-cylinder engine where one piston is going down when the next is
going up? The glow-plug engine would need solid dividers between the
crankcase sections so each piston pumps for itself.

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

The Detroits have an open crankcase, so no pump effect. And they
use conventional pressure oil lubrication, plus most diesels have an
oil jet aimed at the underside of the piston for cooling and wrist pin
lube - not sure, but Detroits have to do it like everyone else... If
any of that motor oil in the crankcase was to accidentally get into
the cylinder intake air, you have a runaway engine.

Same thing if an oil seal on the blower or the Turbocharger (if
equipped) blows and starts dumping motor oil into the intake - a
runaway engine that will soon "Go Splodey" when it exceeds redline by
a sufficient amount.

This is why they have that Emergency Shutdown air damper on the air
intake, that's the only way to kill a diesel engine if the oil it is
running on isn't coming in through the fuel injectors.

-- Bruce --

Allen

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:12:46 -0700, Allen wrote:

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

How were they lubricated?

"Wayne.B" wrote:

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:12:46 -0700, Allen wrote:

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

How were they lubricated?

By a forced feed lubricating system, generally a proprietary make
such as Madison-Kipp, Detroit etc.
http://www.geocities.com/hartparrtractors/kipp.html

Allen

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:59:50 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:12:46 -0700, Allen wrote:

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

How were they lubricated?

Early on (1920) Fairbanks-Morse mad at least one 15 HP semi diesel
that used the crankcase to pressurize air for the 2 stroke engine The
engine lubrication was by a mechanical oil pressure pump pumping oil
to the two main bearing shells and to the cylinder. However the later
two piston Fairbanks-Morse 2-strokes used in locomotives and ships
all had a mechanical blower for scavenging.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:35:02 +0700, wrote:

Early on (1920) Fairbanks-Morse mad at least one 15 HP semi diesel
that used the crankcase to pressurize air for the 2 stroke engine The
engine lubrication was by a mechanical oil pressure pump pumping oil
to the two main bearing shells and to the cylinder.

I assume the lube oil got burned, or was it reclaimed in some way?

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:04:59 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:35:02 +0700, wrote:

Early on (1920) Fairbanks-Morse mad at least one 15 HP semi diesel
that used the crankcase to pressurize air for the 2 stroke engine The
engine lubrication was by a mechanical oil pressure pump pumping oil
to the two main bearing shells and to the cylinder.

I assume the lube oil got burned, or was it reclaimed in some way?

From looking at pictures and drawings the engine was constructed much
like any other horizontal engine of the same era except that the
"crank case" was closed on all sides. The main bearings were simple
babbeted bearings with caps lubricated by an external lube pump
connected through external "oil pipes". A third oil line ran to the
cylinder and I assume that some of the oil that lubricated the piston
dripped down on the horizontal connecting rod and flowed back to
lubricate the connecting rod ends. The manual refers to a "oil tube"
on the connecting rod connected to the big end.

The oil pump was a cam operated devise as the manual discusses "giving
the oil pump several pumps prior to starting the engine".

So essentially the engine had a constant loss lubrication system which
was not unusual in that era. I have seen other horizontal semi diesel
engines of the same eras that had oil cups or drip oilers on both main
and connecting rods.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:39:41 +0700, wrote:

So essentially the engine had a constant loss lubrication system which
was not unusual in that era. I have seen other horizontal semi diesel
engines of the same eras that had oil cups or drip oilers on both main
and connecting rods.

I was looking at a couple of multi cylinder marine steam engines last
week which dated from the late 1800s/early 1900s. They had oil cups
on the main bearings. Couldn't figure out how the rod bearings were
lubed if at all. Good thing they were slow turning.