Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Right - but how did that model engine lubricate the main and rod
bearings, and the wrist pins and piston bores? If they were misting
the fuel into the crankcase as a bearing lubricant before it got
inducted and burned as the fuel, that isn't a true Diesel engine, it's
a modified Glow-Plug engine.

And how did they get the crankcase pumping effect to work on a
multi-cylinder engine where one piston is going down when the next is
going up? The glow-plug engine would need solid dividers between the
crankcase sections so each piston pumps for itself.

The Detroits have an open crankcase, so no pump effect. And they
use conventional pressure oil lubrication, plus most diesels have an
oil jet aimed at the underside of the piston for cooling and wrist pin
lube - not sure, but Detroits have to do it like everyone else... If
any of that motor oil in the crankcase was to accidentally get into
the cylinder intake air, you have a runaway engine.

Same thing if an oil seal on the blower or the Turbocharger (if
equipped) blows and starts dumping motor oil into the intake - a
runaway engine that will soon "Go Splodey" when it exceeds redline by
a sufficient amount.

This is why they have that Emergency Shutdown air damper on the air
intake, that's the only way to kill a diesel engine if the oil it is
running on isn't coming in through the fuel injectors.

-- Bruce --

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:10:26 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Right - but how did that model engine lubricate the main and rod
bearings, and the wrist pins and piston bores? If they were misting
the fuel into the crankcase as a bearing lubricant before it got
inducted and burned as the fuel, that isn't a true Diesel engine, it's
a modified Glow-Plug engine.

Well, a diesel is defined as a compression ignition engine and the
diesel model airplane engines are just that so they too are diesel
engines.

And how did they get the crankcase pumping effect to work on a
multi-cylinder engine where one piston is going down when the next is
going up? The glow-plug engine would need solid dividers between the
crankcase sections so each piston pumps for itself.

True and multi cylinder 2-stroke engines do have a separator between
each cylinder.

The Detroits have an open crankcase, so no pump effect. And they
use conventional pressure oil lubrication, plus most diesels have an
oil jet aimed at the underside of the piston for cooling and wrist pin
lube - not sure, but Detroits have to do it like everyone else... If
any of that motor oil in the crankcase was to accidentally get into
the cylinder intake air, you have a runaway engine.

Same thing if an oil seal on the blower or the Turbocharger (if
equipped) blows and starts dumping motor oil into the intake - a
runaway engine that will soon "Go Splodey" when it exceeds redline by
a sufficient amount.

This is why they have that Emergency Shutdown air damper on the air
intake, that's the only way to kill a diesel engine if the oil it is
running on isn't coming in through the fuel injectors.

-- Bruce --

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Right - but how did that model engine lubricate the main and rod
bearings, and the wrist pins and piston bores? If they were misting
the fuel into the crankcase as a bearing lubricant before it got
inducted and burned as the fuel, that isn't a true Diesel engine, it's
a modified Glow-Plug engine.

And how did they get the crankcase pumping effect to work on a
multi-cylinder engine where one piston is going down when the next is
going up? The glow-plug engine would need solid dividers between the
crankcase sections so each piston pumps for itself.

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

The Detroits have an open crankcase, so no pump effect. And they
use conventional pressure oil lubrication, plus most diesels have an
oil jet aimed at the underside of the piston for cooling and wrist pin
lube - not sure, but Detroits have to do it like everyone else... If
any of that motor oil in the crankcase was to accidentally get into
the cylinder intake air, you have a runaway engine.

Same thing if an oil seal on the blower or the Turbocharger (if
equipped) blows and starts dumping motor oil into the intake - a
runaway engine that will soon "Go Splodey" when it exceeds redline by
a sufficient amount.

This is why they have that Emergency Shutdown air damper on the air
intake, that's the only way to kill a diesel engine if the oil it is
running on isn't coming in through the fuel injectors.

-- Bruce --

Allen

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like
a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del


2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot
of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.


Sure you do and it worked just like a glow plug engine. You mixed oil
for lubrication and some nitro-benzine, or something like that, and it
ran. Exactly as do sea scooters, 2-stroke motor cycles and chain saws.

And the reason is that you use the bottom of the piston coming down on
the power stroke to compress the fuel/oil mixture in the crank case to
force it into the combustion chamber.

But we were talking specifically about a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke and
the fact that it does need the mechanical driven "blower" to run.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

No, the statement was all diesels require a blower. There were lots of old
fishing boats with 1 and 2 piston diesels, that did not require a blower to
run. But they were designed like gas 2 stroke to use the crankcase as the
compressor.

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote:
2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig

All 2 strokes are not designed alike. The term "2stroke" refers to how
often the piston goes up/down per power stroke. Not how air or fuel is
fed to the cylinder. The crankcase of you little diesel 2 stroke is
designed like an outboard. A DD crankcase is designed like your
automobile engine's (assuming it's a 4 stroke).
A DD 2 stroke can't run without a blower.

Rick

I realize that on DD's. But the statement was all 2 stroke diesels required
a blower.

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

"Calif Bill" wrote:
he statement was all 2 stroke diesels required
a blower.

Fair 'nuff. Missed that.
I thought we were referring to DDs.
Should'a been all 2 stroke diesels require a mechanism to pump air
into the cylinder. Blower or crankcase, depending on the design.

Rick

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:43:13 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like
a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot
of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.


Sure you do and it worked just like a glow plug engine. You mixed oil
for lubrication and some nitro-benzine, or something like that, and it
ran. Exactly as do sea scooters, 2-stroke motor cycles and chain saws.

And the reason is that you use the bottom of the piston coming down on
the power stroke to compress the fuel/oil mixture in the crank case to
force it into the combustion chamber.

But we were talking specifically about a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke and
the fact that it does need the mechanical driven "blower" to run.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

No, the statement was all diesels require a blower. There were lots of old
fishing boats with 1 and 2 piston diesels, that did not require a blower to
run. But they were designed like gas 2 stroke to use the crankcase as the
compressor.

I had assumed that as the original post was concerning s 3-53 Detroit
Diesel engine we were still talking about D.D. engines, however the
subject seemed to have slipped a bit, Mia Culpa.

But I am interested in these 1 and 2 piston diesels, used in fishing
boats that did not use a blower? can you tell me the approximate
period they were in use and what the manufacturer was?



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:43:13 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine
would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not
through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower"
in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor
like
a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a
lot
of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.


Sure you do and it worked just like a glow plug engine. You mixed oil
for lubrication and some nitro-benzine, or something like that, and it
ran. Exactly as do sea scooters, 2-stroke motor cycles and chain saws.

And the reason is that you use the bottom of the piston coming down on
the power stroke to compress the fuel/oil mixture in the crank case to
force it into the combustion chamber.

But we were talking specifically about a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke and
the fact that it does need the mechanical driven "blower" to run.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

No, the statement was all diesels require a blower. There were lots of
old
fishing boats with 1 and 2 piston diesels, that did not require a blower
to
run. But they were designed like gas 2 stroke to use the crankcase as the
compressor.

I had assumed that as the original post was concerning s 3-53 Detroit
Diesel engine we were still talking about D.D. engines, however the
subject seemed to have slipped a bit, Mia Culpa.

But I am interested in these 1 and 2 piston diesels, used in fishing
boats that did not use a blower? can you tell me the approximate
period they were in use and what the manufacturer was?



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Early 1950's late 40's. Lot of Monterey's used them. Just use to hear them
as they ran. About one explosion every 5-6 seconds. Montereys were built
and designed in Monterey, Calif and used in the sardine fisherey.

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:02:09 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:43:13 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine
would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not
through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower"
in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor
like
a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a
lot
of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.


Sure you do and it worked just like a glow plug engine. You mixed oil
for lubrication and some nitro-benzine, or something like that, and it
ran. Exactly as do sea scooters, 2-stroke motor cycles and chain saws.

And the reason is that you use the bottom of the piston coming down on
the power stroke to compress the fuel/oil mixture in the crank case to
force it into the combustion chamber.

But we were talking specifically about a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke and
the fact that it does need the mechanical driven "blower" to run.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

No, the statement was all diesels require a blower. There were lots of
old
fishing boats with 1 and 2 piston diesels, that did not require a blower
to
run. But they were designed like gas 2 stroke to use the crankcase as the
compressor.

I had assumed that as the original post was concerning s 3-53 Detroit
Diesel engine we were still talking about D.D. engines, however the
subject seemed to have slipped a bit, Mia Culpa.

But I am interested in these 1 and 2 piston diesels, used in fishing
boats that did not use a blower? can you tell me the approximate
period they were in use and what the manufacturer was?



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Early 1950's late 40's. Lot of Monterey's used them. Just use to hear them
as they ran. About one explosion every 5-6 seconds. Montereys were built
and designed in Monterey, Calif and used in the sardine fisherey.


That is interesting. If anyone has any additional information on these
engines I would really like to find out what they were using.

On the New England coast engines of this type were long gone although
some of the older fishermen used to talk about one cylinder gasoline
inboards , possibly Fairbanks, that could be reversed by moving the
manual spark lever to the point that ignition was so far before TDC
that the engine kicked back and ran in reverse.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:12:46 -0700, Allen wrote:

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

How were they lubricated?