Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

PhantMan wrote:
The "blower" just provides the normal air pressure required to run the
engine (other 2 stroke designs do the same thing with crankcase
vacuum/pressure). But a "supercharger" would provide more than that.
An extra (super) boost so to speak. Thus the use of separate
terminology. Izat about right?

Wayne.B:
Almost. Superchargers and turbochargers both generate boost pressure,
the difference is in how they are driven. Superchargers are direct
drive (belts, gears, etc), turbos are driven by exhaust pressure.

Right. Which is why I was confusing the "blower" term with a
"supercharger" rather than "turbocharger", since the blower is not
exhaust driven.
My ambiguous message up there was referring to the reason the DD
blower can be considered part of a "natually aspirated" system rather
than supercharged.
I somehow don't think I'm making sense today.

Rick

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

Eisboch wrote:
"JohnM" wrote in message
m...

All two-stroke Detroits have a blower. It's necessary to the operation of
the engine, does the job that crankcase pressure does in a little
two-stroke. On the inline motors it mounts on the side of the block.

John

If a "blower" is defined by you as a turbo (i.e. .., device to increase air
flow into the cylinders), then you are in error. I know several people with
2 stroke DD 6-71's. Some are naturally aspirated, some have turbos
(blowers).

Eisboch



Find a cutaway picture of a Detroit Diesel, you'll see what the blower
does and you can figure out how. Don't pay no 'tention to turbos, a
turbo isn't a blower. A naturally aspirated Detroit two-stroke has a
blower.

John

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

In article ,
_ wrote:

[...]


The Detroit Diesel is a two stroke, diesel. The piston goes down on
the power stroke and comes up on the compression stroke. Without the
mechanical driven "blower" which simply blows air in through the
cylinder ports and through the exhaust ports at the beginning of the
compression stroke there would be no way to get a charge of air into
the engine.

If you wanted to increase the pressure and volume of this air flow you
could add a exhaust driven compressor before the "blower", But you
must have the "blower" for the engine to run.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Neither being a two-stroke nor using diesel oil (nor indeed the
combination) requires a blower/turbo for such an engine to operate. It is
true that engines can be designed so that, were the blower/turbo with which
they are normally equipped to be removed they would not run, that would be
due to other design decisions, not to the choice of fuel, method of
ignition, and/or two/four-stroke operation.

Being a two-stroke, and a Detroit, it requires a blower to operate.
Come to think of it, I've never heard of any engines that are two
stroke and do not use forced induction of one form or another. Even
little chain saws use the crankcase volume as a blower.
Seems as if those two eliminated strokes--intake and exhaust--are
taken up by the blower.
How would you build an 2-stroke engine without forced induction?

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:08:52 -0500, "B.B."
u wrote:

In article ,
_ wrote:

[...]


The Detroit Diesel is a two stroke, diesel. The piston goes down on
the power stroke and comes up on the compression stroke. Without the
mechanical driven "blower" which simply blows air in through the
cylinder ports and through the exhaust ports at the beginning of the
compression stroke there would be no way to get a charge of air into
the engine.

If you wanted to increase the pressure and volume of this air flow you
could add a exhaust driven compressor before the "blower", But you
must have the "blower" for the engine to run.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Neither being a two-stroke nor using diesel oil (nor indeed the
combination) requires a blower/turbo for such an engine to operate. It is
true that engines can be designed so that, were the blower/turbo with which
they are normally equipped to be removed they would not run, that would be
due to other design decisions, not to the choice of fuel, method of
ignition, and/or two/four-stroke operation.

O.K. Assuming that your statement is correct And starting from the
power stroke of a two stroke diesel engine.

(1) Diesel fuel is injected into the combustion chamber where air has
been compressed until it exceeds the ignition temperature of the duel.

(2) The rapidly expanding gases created by the burning fuel act to
push the only movable part of the combustion chamber, the piston
downward. At the bottom of the power stroke the gasses inside the
combustion chamber still are far hotter then ambient temperature and
thus exceed ambient pressure.

(3) the piston having reached the bottom of its power stroke begins to
be driven upward by the crankshaft and connecting rod. When it piston
reaches roughly the top of its compression stroke another injection
event occurs.

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance


Being a two-stroke, and a Detroit, it requires a blower to operate.
Come to think of it, I've never heard of any engines that are two
stroke and do not use forced induction of one form or another. Even
little chain saws use the crankcase volume as a blower.
Seems as if those two eliminated strokes--intake and exhaust--are
taken up by the blower.
How would you build an 2-stroke engine without forced induction?



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like
a gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc is left as an exercise for the student.

del

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del


2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

Bruce:
So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower"

"Del Cecchi" wrote:
Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like
a gas 2stroke does.

Problem with that assumption is, a DD crankcase is designed like a 4
stroke, with an oil bath and filter. A DD crankcase is not connected
in any way to the intake port (not to mention, a DD cylinder has no
exhaust port. it has an exhaust valve, and rocker arms, and pushrods,
and cam, like a 4 stroke). A DD 2 storke design is nothing like the 2
stroke design we're all familiar with for outboards etc.
Its air intake comes directly from outside, not through the crankcase.
And without a blower to push the air in, it won't run.

Rick

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del


2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.


Sure you do and it worked just like a glow plug engine. You mixed oil
for lubrication and some nitro-benzine, or something like that, and it
ran. Exactly as do sea scooters, 2-stroke motor cycles and chain saws.

And the reason is that you use the bottom of the piston coming down on
the power stroke to compress the fuel/oil mixture in the crank case to
force it into the combustion chamber.

But we were talking specifically about a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke and
the fact that it does need the mechanical driven "blower" to run.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

"Calif Bill" wrote:
2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig

All 2 strokes are not designed alike. The term "2stroke" refers to how
often the piston goes up/down per power stroke. Not how air or fuel is
fed to the cylinder. The crankcase of you little diesel 2 stroke is
designed like an outboard. A DD crankcase is designed like your
automobile engine's (assuming it's a 4 stroke).
A DD 2 stroke can't run without a blower.

Rick

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:36:31 -0500, "Del Cecchi"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like
a gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc is left as an exercise for the student.

del

Nope you are really talking about two different devices. The gas/oil
mix fueled 2-stroke provides lubrication and fuel for the engine.
Whether the oil is injected into the air/fuel stream or pre-mixed
makes no difference. Since chain saws, yamahas and model aircraft
engines, including model diesel engines run this way proves that it
will work.

But, we were discussing specifically Detroit Diesel 2-styroke diesel
engines that do not premix the oil and fuel. Quite the opposite, they
are vary carefully separated. Thus, a blower scavenged 2-stroke
diesel will not run without it's blower.





Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Right - but how did that model engine lubricate the main and rod
bearings, and the wrist pins and piston bores? If they were misting
the fuel into the crankcase as a bearing lubricant before it got
inducted and burned as the fuel, that isn't a true Diesel engine, it's
a modified Glow-Plug engine.

And how did they get the crankcase pumping effect to work on a
multi-cylinder engine where one piston is going down when the next is
going up? The glow-plug engine would need solid dividers between the
crankcase sections so each piston pumps for itself.

The Detroits have an open crankcase, so no pump effect. And they
use conventional pressure oil lubrication, plus most diesels have an
oil jet aimed at the underside of the piston for cooling and wrist pin
lube - not sure, but Detroits have to do it like everyone else... If
any of that motor oil in the crankcase was to accidentally get into
the cylinder intake air, you have a runaway engine.

Same thing if an oil seal on the blower or the Turbocharger (if
equipped) blows and starts dumping motor oil into the intake - a
runaway engine that will soon "Go Splodey" when it exceeds redline by
a sufficient amount.

This is why they have that Emergency Shutdown air damper on the air
intake, that's the only way to kill a diesel engine if the oil it is
running on isn't coming in through the fuel injectors.

-- Bruce --

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:10:26 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Right - but how did that model engine lubricate the main and rod
bearings, and the wrist pins and piston bores? If they were misting
the fuel into the crankcase as a bearing lubricant before it got
inducted and burned as the fuel, that isn't a true Diesel engine, it's
a modified Glow-Plug engine.

Well, a diesel is defined as a compression ignition engine and the
diesel model airplane engines are just that so they too are diesel
engines.

And how did they get the crankcase pumping effect to work on a
multi-cylinder engine where one piston is going down when the next is
going up? The glow-plug engine would need solid dividers between the
crankcase sections so each piston pumps for itself.

True and multi cylinder 2-stroke engines do have a separator between
each cylinder.

The Detroits have an open crankcase, so no pump effect. And they
use conventional pressure oil lubrication, plus most diesels have an
oil jet aimed at the underside of the piston for cooling and wrist pin
lube - not sure, but Detroits have to do it like everyone else... If
any of that motor oil in the crankcase was to accidentally get into
the cylinder intake air, you have a runaway engine.

Same thing if an oil seal on the blower or the Turbocharger (if
equipped) blows and starts dumping motor oil into the intake - a
runaway engine that will soon "Go Splodey" when it exceeds redline by
a sufficient amount.

This is why they have that Emergency Shutdown air damper on the air
intake, that's the only way to kill a diesel engine if the oil it is
running on isn't coming in through the fuel injectors.

-- Bruce --

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.

Right - but how did that model engine lubricate the main and rod
bearings, and the wrist pins and piston bores? If they were misting
the fuel into the crankcase as a bearing lubricant before it got
inducted and burned as the fuel, that isn't a true Diesel engine, it's
a modified Glow-Plug engine.

And how did they get the crankcase pumping effect to work on a
multi-cylinder engine where one piston is going down when the next is
going up? The glow-plug engine would need solid dividers between the
crankcase sections so each piston pumps for itself.

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

The Detroits have an open crankcase, so no pump effect. And they
use conventional pressure oil lubrication, plus most diesels have an
oil jet aimed at the underside of the piston for cooling and wrist pin
lube - not sure, but Detroits have to do it like everyone else... If
any of that motor oil in the crankcase was to accidentally get into
the cylinder intake air, you have a runaway engine.

Same thing if an oil seal on the blower or the Turbocharger (if
equipped) blows and starts dumping motor oil into the intake - a
runaway engine that will soon "Go Splodey" when it exceeds redline by
a sufficient amount.

This is why they have that Emergency Shutdown air damper on the air
intake, that's the only way to kill a diesel engine if the oil it is
running on isn't coming in through the fuel injectors.

-- Bruce --

Allen

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like
a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del


2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot
of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.


Sure you do and it worked just like a glow plug engine. You mixed oil
for lubrication and some nitro-benzine, or something like that, and it
ran. Exactly as do sea scooters, 2-stroke motor cycles and chain saws.

And the reason is that you use the bottom of the piston coming down on
the power stroke to compress the fuel/oil mixture in the crank case to
force it into the combustion chamber.

But we were talking specifically about a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke and
the fact that it does need the mechanical driven "blower" to run.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

No, the statement was all diesels require a blower. There were lots of old
fishing boats with 1 and 2 piston diesels, that did not require a blower to
run. But they were designed like gas 2 stroke to use the crankcase as the
compressor.

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote:
2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig

All 2 strokes are not designed alike. The term "2stroke" refers to how
often the piston goes up/down per power stroke. Not how air or fuel is
fed to the cylinder. The crankcase of you little diesel 2 stroke is
designed like an outboard. A DD crankcase is designed like your
automobile engine's (assuming it's a 4 stroke).
A DD 2 stroke can't run without a blower.

Rick

I realize that on DD's. But the statement was all 2 stroke diesels required
a blower.

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

"Calif Bill" wrote:
he statement was all 2 stroke diesels required
a blower.

Fair 'nuff. Missed that.
I thought we were referring to DDs.
Should'a been all 2 stroke diesels require a mechanism to pump air
into the cylinder. Blower or crankcase, depending on the design.

Rick

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:43:13 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like
a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a lot
of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.


Sure you do and it worked just like a glow plug engine. You mixed oil
for lubrication and some nitro-benzine, or something like that, and it
ran. Exactly as do sea scooters, 2-stroke motor cycles and chain saws.

And the reason is that you use the bottom of the piston coming down on
the power stroke to compress the fuel/oil mixture in the crank case to
force it into the combustion chamber.

But we were talking specifically about a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke and
the fact that it does need the mechanical driven "blower" to run.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

No, the statement was all diesels require a blower. There were lots of old
fishing boats with 1 and 2 piston diesels, that did not require a blower to
run. But they were designed like gas 2 stroke to use the crankcase as the
compressor.

I had assumed that as the original post was concerning s 3-53 Detroit
Diesel engine we were still talking about D.D. engines, however the
subject seemed to have slipped a bit, Mia Culpa.

But I am interested in these 1 and 2 piston diesels, used in fishing
boats that did not use a blower? can you tell me the approximate
period they were in use and what the manufacturer was?



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:43:13 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine
would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not
through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower"
in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor
like
a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a
lot
of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.


Sure you do and it worked just like a glow plug engine. You mixed oil
for lubrication and some nitro-benzine, or something like that, and it
ran. Exactly as do sea scooters, 2-stroke motor cycles and chain saws.

And the reason is that you use the bottom of the piston coming down on
the power stroke to compress the fuel/oil mixture in the crank case to
force it into the combustion chamber.

But we were talking specifically about a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke and
the fact that it does need the mechanical driven "blower" to run.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

No, the statement was all diesels require a blower. There were lots of
old
fishing boats with 1 and 2 piston diesels, that did not require a blower
to
run. But they were designed like gas 2 stroke to use the crankcase as the
compressor.

I had assumed that as the original post was concerning s 3-53 Detroit
Diesel engine we were still talking about D.D. engines, however the
subject seemed to have slipped a bit, Mia Culpa.

But I am interested in these 1 and 2 piston diesels, used in fishing
boats that did not use a blower? can you tell me the approximate
period they were in use and what the manufacturer was?



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Early 1950's late 40's. Lot of Monterey's used them. Just use to hear them
as they ran. About one explosion every 5-6 seconds. Montereys were built
and designed in Monterey, Calif and used in the sardine fisherey.

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:02:09 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:43:13 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:15:47 -0700, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip

Now, as temperature of the gasses within the combustion chamber and
thus the pressure, is higher then ambient temperature and pressure at
the bottom of the power stroke the flow should be from the high
pressure area to a lower pressure area. In which case the engine
would
not receive any air for the next stroke.

So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not
through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower"
in
D.D. parlance

Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor
like
a
gas 2stroke does.

Whether it is possible to get the necessary compression for ignition,
especially while at cranking speed, while dealing with transfer ports
etc
is left as an exercise for the student.

del

2 stroke diesels will run without a blower. I have a model airplane
engine
diesel that jsut uses the crankcase like a gas rig. And there were a
lot
of
those 1 lunger diesels in Montereys, etc, that did not have a blower.


Sure you do and it worked just like a glow plug engine. You mixed oil
for lubrication and some nitro-benzine, or something like that, and it
ran. Exactly as do sea scooters, 2-stroke motor cycles and chain saws.

And the reason is that you use the bottom of the piston coming down on
the power stroke to compress the fuel/oil mixture in the crank case to
force it into the combustion chamber.

But we were talking specifically about a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke and
the fact that it does need the mechanical driven "blower" to run.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

No, the statement was all diesels require a blower. There were lots of
old
fishing boats with 1 and 2 piston diesels, that did not require a blower
to
run. But they were designed like gas 2 stroke to use the crankcase as the
compressor.

I had assumed that as the original post was concerning s 3-53 Detroit
Diesel engine we were still talking about D.D. engines, however the
subject seemed to have slipped a bit, Mia Culpa.

But I am interested in these 1 and 2 piston diesels, used in fishing
boats that did not use a blower? can you tell me the approximate
period they were in use and what the manufacturer was?



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Early 1950's late 40's. Lot of Monterey's used them. Just use to hear them
as they ran. About one explosion every 5-6 seconds. Montereys were built
and designed in Monterey, Calif and used in the sardine fisherey.


That is interesting. If anyone has any additional information on these
engines I would really like to find out what they were using.

On the New England coast engines of this type were long gone although
some of the older fishermen used to talk about one cylinder gasoline
inboards , possibly Fairbanks, that could be reversed by moving the
manual spark lever to the point that ignition was so far before TDC
that the engine kicked back and ran in reverse.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:12:46 -0700, Allen wrote:

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

How were they lubricated?

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

brucedpaige wrote
So, where does the two stroke diesel engine get the air necessary to
support combustion of the next injection of diesel fuel if not through
the use of a mechanical air pump, usually referred to as a "Blower" in
D.D. parlance

Del Cecchi:
Presumably it would get them by using the crankcase as a compressor like
a gas 2stroke does.

I don't know why I didn't think to post a link like this yesterday. It
makes it much easier to see and understand the difference between the
two designs (crankcase induced air vs blower induced air) and see why
a DD design won't run without a blower.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel-two-stroke1.htm

Rick

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

"Wayne.B" wrote:

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:12:46 -0700, Allen wrote:

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

How were they lubricated?

By a forced feed lubricating system, generally a proprietary make
such as Madison-Kipp, Detroit etc.
http://www.geocities.com/hartparrtractors/kipp.html

Allen

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:59:50 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:12:46 -0700, Allen wrote:

Actually a lot of multi-cylinder engine makers did exactly that, to name
a few US makers: Fabco-Tuxham, Fairbanks-Morse, Kahlenberg, Kromhout,
Markey-Viking, Mianus, Wolverine etc

How were they lubricated?

Early on (1920) Fairbanks-Morse mad at least one 15 HP semi diesel
that used the crankcase to pressurize air for the 2 stroke engine The
engine lubrication was by a mechanical oil pressure pump pumping oil
to the two main bearing shells and to the cylinder. However the later
two piston Fairbanks-Morse 2-strokes used in locomotives and ships
all had a mechanical blower for scavenging.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

Found videos of some running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xypigwaqwnc

And a small
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBLkNxRzwmo

And a medium
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl9wv6d9bzA

And a large

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1XbZYJwsaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbgQz0ahYdA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXyWkowC49Q

And stupidness I found on the way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qUDH...elated&search=

Enjoy.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:35:02 +0700, wrote:

Early on (1920) Fairbanks-Morse mad at least one 15 HP semi diesel
that used the crankcase to pressurize air for the 2 stroke engine The
engine lubrication was by a mechanical oil pressure pump pumping oil
to the two main bearing shells and to the cylinder.

I assume the lube oil got burned, or was it reclaimed in some way?

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:04:59 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:35:02 +0700, wrote:

Early on (1920) Fairbanks-Morse mad at least one 15 HP semi diesel
that used the crankcase to pressurize air for the 2 stroke engine The
engine lubrication was by a mechanical oil pressure pump pumping oil
to the two main bearing shells and to the cylinder.

I assume the lube oil got burned, or was it reclaimed in some way?

From looking at pictures and drawings the engine was constructed much
like any other horizontal engine of the same era except that the
"crank case" was closed on all sides. The main bearings were simple
babbeted bearings with caps lubricated by an external lube pump
connected through external "oil pipes". A third oil line ran to the
cylinder and I assume that some of the oil that lubricated the piston
dripped down on the horizontal connecting rod and flowed back to
lubricate the connecting rod ends. The manual refers to a "oil tube"
on the connecting rod connected to the big end.

The oil pump was a cam operated devise as the manual discusses "giving
the oil pump several pumps prior to starting the engine".

So essentially the engine had a constant loss lubrication system which
was not unusual in that era. I have seen other horizontal semi diesel
engines of the same eras that had oil cups or drip oilers on both main
and connecting rods.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 00:22:33 -0500, B.B. u wrote:
Found videos of some running.


Very nice. If I can plug a video of myself with the running Cummins
L423D engine, search youtube for L423D. You will find it.

i

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:39:41 +0700, wrote:

So essentially the engine had a constant loss lubrication system which
was not unusual in that era. I have seen other horizontal semi diesel
engines of the same eras that had oil cups or drip oilers on both main
and connecting rods.

I was looking at a couple of multi cylinder marine steam engines last
week which dated from the late 1800s/early 1900s. They had oil cups
on the main bearings. Couldn't figure out how the rod bearings were
lubed if at all. Good thing they were slow turning.

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 20:56:17 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:39:41 +0700, wrote:

So essentially the engine had a constant loss lubrication system which
was not unusual in that era. I have seen other horizontal semi diesel
engines of the same eras that had oil cups or drip oilers on both main
and connecting rods.

I was looking at a couple of multi cylinder marine steam engines last
week which dated from the late 1800s/early 1900s. They had oil cups
on the main bearings. Couldn't figure out how the rod bearings were
lubed if at all. Good thing they were slow turning.

I crewed as a fireman/watertender on a couple of Great Lake tankers
with steam engines, both built in the teens I believe.
The Rocket (Cleveland Tankers) and the Illinois (Standard Oil).
Unfortunately I can't remember the lube systems, as I didn't pay much
attention. My impression is the rod bearings were splash lubed, but I
could be wrong.
Occasionally I'd spend some time in the engineroom chatting with the
oilers, and here's what I remember:
The engines were beautiful machines, with the steam heads high in the
space, the crank down below, and the men and auxiliaries mid-level.
Safety rails surrounded the engine pit, and you could chat without
yelling as the large rods pumped up and down nearly next to your ears.
The steam head valves and exhausting steam made the bulk of the noise.
The deck of a similar sized tanker powered by diesels was more
bothered by noise than the engineroom of a steam reciprocator.
The rods were articulated, the knee moving up and down on a slide,
which was lubed by the oiler with a common squirt oilcan.
Every moving part was clean, shiny, and slick.
I was shown by one oiler I was friendly with a lube retention hole on
one of the rod knee slides, and told a story, confirmed by others who
were there.
The slides were maybe 6" wide, and the lube holes maybe 1/2", spaced a
couple feet apart.
An oiler had lost a little finger in this particular lube hole, sliced
clean off after the first knuckle.
Everybody wondered at his bad luck, since it was almost
impossible to get a finger cut off there even with lackadaisical
attention to safety.
He was paid $3,000 for the loss of the finger.
Less than 2 years later the same finger of his other hand was
cut off in the same hole.
He was again paid $3,000, but was blackballed.
There was no doubt he had done self-amputations for the cash.
I don't know if this guy wanted the cash to buy an ETEC or a Parker,
but every time I look at the driver of one, the thought enters my
mind.

--Vic

Detroit 353 diesel -- aluminum block? How to tell?
 

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 21:44:19 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

The rods were articulated, the knee moving up and down on a slide,
which was lubed by the oiler with a common squirt oilcan.

Unbelievable in this day and age but I guess that was the only way.
Somebody else obviously had to ensure that he was making his rounds
faithfully or the engine would have self destructed after a while.