Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

"JimH" ask wrote in message
...

"HK" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:37:12 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:21:12 -0400, "JimH" ask penned
the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

"Hamish" wrote in message
ink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal
umbrella
policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always comes with
it said,
"The definition of insured is revised so that a person or
organization
using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is no longer covered."
So, when
I let a valet park my car, he's not covered. If I loan my car to
a friend,
relative, or neighbor, they're not covered. If my ski boat was
running -
it isn't right now - and I let a friend drive it to tow me, he's
not
covered. (Yes, I know that my "underlying" car insurance covers
them up to
the limits of that policy, but those limits are only enough to pay
for a
stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and
asked me
to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called the
underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to
quote me the
increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies up to the
same limits
that were formerly covered by the Umbrella. An additional $206
per year.
I will pay the money, because I own a home and it is vital that I
remain
insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a
lot of
other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the
brochure is 17
pages long), will simply write the check like they do every other
year,
and will end up with a big gap in their coverage. And their
insurance
agent won't take the trouble to call them or write them a personal
letter
telling about the big gap that just opened up in their coverage.
So, look
out! And warn your friends.

Ham

1. The valet company should have their own insurance.
*You* pay insurance premiums to make sure *you* are covered. Don't
assume that anybody else has you covered (they don't, though they
may
try to indemnify themselves). If you have to take them to court, be
sure that you can afford all of the justice that you feel you are
entitled to....

2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.
Ok, I'll buy that, but it doesn't cover any non-loaner legitimate
use
of your vehicle. Boats? Marina re-positioning your boat to another
slip (see? says they can do it in the lease agreement..... Personal
injury? You have a dangerous boat! Damage? See no evil, hear no
evil...... see #1 above)

3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your
family?
Because there *are* no-loaner issues to be dealt with....

So what is the big deal?
You have equity that other people want.... it really is a BIG DEAL!
Bingo. $206 yearly premium increase for the same coverage.

--Vic
Why in the world would you want to extend your general liability
umbrella coverage to any one but your family?

If you were smart...........you would pay zero extra as the changes
have no effect on you.

At a couple of ramps I use, I sometimes have to "manhandle" the boat
onto the trailer properly while someone else handles the tow vehicle.
Or, at launch, I sometimes stay in the boat while someone else backs
down the trailer. **** happens. I'd want coverage for nasty things
happening at those times, since I can't handle everything at once.


You are still covered as is your boat...............same as you always
were. The other guy however is no longer covered by your gl umbrella
coverage nor should he be.

Hopefully you get it now.


Well, if the other guy is driving my truck at the launch ramp, he is
using my truck. I'd hate to see that usage excluded.

It isn't under the truck policy. He is only excluded under the GL
umbrella policy, as he should.


He was never included under the GL umbrella policy. You were, and you will
be sued if someone in your vehicle kills someone. And the GL umbrella
coverage is not there for that.

Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in
ink.net:


"akheel" wrote in message
...
Gene Kearns wrote in
:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:21:12 -0400, "JimH" ask penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


"Hamish" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal
umbrella policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always
comes with it said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a
person or organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is
no longer covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not
covered. If I loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor,
they're not covered. If my ski boat was running - it isn't right
now - and I let a friend drive it to tow me, he's not covered.
(Yes, I know that my "underlying" car insurance covers them up to
the limits of that policy, but those limits are only enough to pay
for a stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and
asked me to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called
the underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to
quote me the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies
up to the same limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella.
An additional $206 per year. I will pay the money, because I own a
home and it is vital that I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a
lot of other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the
brochure is 17 pages long), will simply write the check like they
do every other year, and will end up with a big gap in their
coverage. And their insurance agent won't take the trouble to call
them or write them a personal letter telling about the big gap
that just opened up in their coverage. So, look out! And warn
your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

*You* pay insurance premiums to make sure *you* are covered. Don't
assume that anybody else has you covered (they don't, though they
may try to indemnify themselves). If you have to take them to court,
be sure that you can afford all of the justice that you feel you are
entitled to....

2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.

Ok, I'll buy that, but it doesn't cover any non-loaner legitimate
use of your vehicle. Boats? Marina re-positioning your boat to
another slip (see? says they can do it in the lease agreement.....
Personal injury? You have a dangerous boat! Damage? See no evil,
hear no evil...... see #1 above)

3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your
family?

Because there *are* no-loaner issues to be dealt with....

So what is the big deal?

You have equity that other people want.... it really is a BIG DEAL!


While admittedly, I don't have the policy you are describing, so I
can't read it, I think you are misconstruing the change. What State
Farm is saying I believe is that your friend who borrows your boat is
no longer an insured on the umbrella, so if he borrows it and kills
someone, no insurance for him, at least from State Farm. But that
doesn't mean that you aren't still an insured if someone sues you as
the owner of the boat (they would probably claim you were negligent
to loan the boat to someone so obviously unskilled). You are still an
insured. Same with the car. In California, car owners are liable for
injuries caused by their car no matter what, even if not negligent
and not driving, up to $15K for injury to one person and $30K for
injury to multiple persons and $5K for property damange. Thus if you
loan your car to someone who causes an injury or damage, your auto
insurance will cover you up to these limits (by law). But if the
umbrella insurance company made your friend an insured, they would
have to pay up to the limits of the insurance, because your friend's
liablility (assuming he is found to be the negligent driver)is not
limited. So by eliminating your friend as an insured, they limit
their liability. It's really your friend who is screwed here, not
you. Moral of the story, YOU should never borrow someone else's car
or boat unless you are sure YOUR insurace covers you.

California minimum insurance is 15/30 (I think it is 20/40 now). But
if you own the car and own a house and stock, you will be sued for
those items by the killed persons heirs. You have the deep pockets
and are the owner of the car.


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.

Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

"akheel" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in
ink.net:


"akheel" wrote in message
...
Gene Kearns wrote in
:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:21:12 -0400, "JimH" ask penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


"Hamish" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal
umbrella policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always
comes with it said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a
person or organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is
no longer covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not
covered. If I loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor,
they're not covered. If my ski boat was running - it isn't right
now - and I let a friend drive it to tow me, he's not covered.
(Yes, I know that my "underlying" car insurance covers them up to
the limits of that policy, but those limits are only enough to pay
for a stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and
asked me to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called
the underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to
quote me the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies
up to the same limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella.
An additional $206 per year. I will pay the money, because I own a
home and it is vital that I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a
lot of other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the
brochure is 17 pages long), will simply write the check like they
do every other year, and will end up with a big gap in their
coverage. And their insurance agent won't take the trouble to call
them or write them a personal letter telling about the big gap
that just opened up in their coverage. So, look out! And warn
your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

*You* pay insurance premiums to make sure *you* are covered. Don't
assume that anybody else has you covered (they don't, though they
may try to indemnify themselves). If you have to take them to court,
be sure that you can afford all of the justice that you feel you are
entitled to....

2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.

Ok, I'll buy that, but it doesn't cover any non-loaner legitimate
use of your vehicle. Boats? Marina re-positioning your boat to
another slip (see? says they can do it in the lease agreement.....
Personal injury? You have a dangerous boat! Damage? See no evil,
hear no evil...... see #1 above)

3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your
family?

Because there *are* no-loaner issues to be dealt with....

So what is the big deal?

You have equity that other people want.... it really is a BIG DEAL!


While admittedly, I don't have the policy you are describing, so I
can't read it, I think you are misconstruing the change. What State
Farm is saying I believe is that your friend who borrows your boat is
no longer an insured on the umbrella, so if he borrows it and kills
someone, no insurance for him, at least from State Farm. But that
doesn't mean that you aren't still an insured if someone sues you as
the owner of the boat (they would probably claim you were negligent
to loan the boat to someone so obviously unskilled). You are still an
insured. Same with the car. In California, car owners are liable for
injuries caused by their car no matter what, even if not negligent
and not driving, up to $15K for injury to one person and $30K for
injury to multiple persons and $5K for property damange. Thus if you
loan your car to someone who causes an injury or damage, your auto
insurance will cover you up to these limits (by law). But if the
umbrella insurance company made your friend an insured, they would
have to pay up to the limits of the insurance, because your friend's
liablility (assuming he is found to be the negligent driver)is not
limited. So by eliminating your friend as an insured, they limit
their liability. It's really your friend who is screwed here, not
you. Moral of the story, YOU should never borrow someone else's car
or boat unless you are sure YOUR insurace covers you.

California minimum insurance is 15/30 (I think it is 20/40 now). But
if you own the car and own a house and stock, you will be sued for
those items by the killed persons heirs. You have the deep pockets
and are the owner of the car.


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.


BINGO! Give that man a ceegar!

Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JimH" ask wrote in message
...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message


You are still covered as is your boat...............same as you always
were. The other guy however is no longer covered by your gl umbrella
coverage nor should he be.

Hopefully you get it now.


Well, if the other guy is driving my truck at the launch ramp, he is
using my truck. I'd hate to see that usage excluded.


It seems the company wants to insure the driver, not the vehicle, which
makes perfect sense. Let's say you have no tickets or accidents for 11
years, and a low premium to go along with it. Your friend's one of these
morons who has an accident and a serious ticket every 18 months. Why
should your policy cover him? Makes no sense, unless you think the goal
of a business is to lose money. His policy should cover him, no matter
whose vehicle he's driving.


Do you understand what an umbrella policy is? Apparently not.


You do not seem to understand an umbrella policy.


Based on your 'contributions' to this thread, I would say you are the one
who doesn't have a clue what it is and how it works.

Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:29:07 -0400, "JimH" ask wrote:


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his
belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.


BINGO! Give that man a ceegar!


Ok..... then, is the friend covered by any sort of insurance that *he*
purchased?
--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.


I will defer this for Calf Bill to answer based on his expertise in the area
of personal insurance. Let's see what he has to say on this. ;-)

Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

JimH wrote:
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:29:07 -0400, "JimH" ask wrote:


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his
belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.

BINGO! Give that man a ceegar!

Ok..... then, is the friend covered by any sort of insurance that *he*
purchased?
--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.


I will defer this for Calf Bill to answer based on his expertise in the area
of personal insurance. Let's see what he has to say on this. ;-)




Bilious Bill has a lot of claims, eh?

Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

"HK" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:29:07 -0400, "JimH" ask wrote:


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his
belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under
his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste
of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.

BINGO! Give that man a ceegar!

Ok..... then, is the friend covered by any sort of insurance that *he*
purchased?
--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.


I will defer this for Calf Bill to answer based on his expertise in the
area of personal insurance. Let's see what he has to say on this. ;-)


Bilious Bill has a lot of claims, eh?

I thought RG was our infamous insurance hawker.
This is one of the few times he has an opportunity to add something of value
to the discussion...rather than his usual outhouse overflow.

Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"HK" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:29:07 -0400, "JimH" ask wrote:


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his
belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under
his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste
of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.

BINGO! Give that man a ceegar!

Ok..... then, is the friend covered by any sort of insurance that *he*
purchased?
--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.


I will defer this for Calf Bill to answer based on his expertise in the
area of personal insurance. Let's see what he has to say on this. ;-)


Bilious Bill has a lot of claims, eh?

I thought RG was our infamous insurance hawker.
This is one of the few times he has an opportunity to add something of
value to the discussion...rather than his usual outhouse overflow.


Get your head out of Harry's ass. The OP was about not being covered by the
umbrella policy if someone not in the family is driving the vehicle.
Umbrella's cover you when all other insurance is exhausted. And if you are
not covered by the Umbrella when an non relation drives, it is worthless
insurance. It was never to cover the unrelated person, it was always to
cover Yourself and family if something happens that exceeds the limits on
your other policies. And most umbrella require at least a $500k policy on
the car, boat, etc. JimH, this is what an umbrella policy is. And if it
does not cover you (never covered the non-insured driver of your car) if an
uninsured or underinsured person drives your car, and gets in an accident,
your policy is worthless!

Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"HK" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:29:07 -0400, "JimH" ask wrote:


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his
belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under
his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste
of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.

BINGO! Give that man a ceegar!

Ok..... then, is the friend covered by any sort of insurance that *he*
purchased?
--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.


I will defer this for Calf Bill to answer based on his expertise in the
area of personal insurance. Let's see what he has to say on this.
;-)


Bilious Bill has a lot of claims, eh?

I thought RG was our infamous insurance hawker.
This is one of the few times he has an opportunity to add something of
value to the discussion...rather than his usual outhouse overflow.


Get your head out of Harry's ass. The OP was about not being covered by
the umbrella policy if someone not in the family is driving the vehicle.


Yes it was.


Umbrella's cover you when all other insurance is exhausted. And if you
are not covered by the Umbrella when an non relation drives, it is
worthless insurance.

It is not worthless. It covers you and your family....the reason for
purchasing it in the first place. It does not cover others and why should
it? What is so hard in understanding that?

It was never to cover the unrelated person, it was always to cover Yourself
and family if something happens that exceeds the limits on your other
policies.

Yep. Where have I said otherwise?

And most umbrella require at least a $500k policy on the car, boat, etc.
JimH, this is what an umbrella policy is. And if it does not cover you
(never covered the non-insured driver of your car) if an uninsured or
underinsured person drives your car, and gets in an accident, your policy
is worthless!

Yep. So again tell me how I have said otherwise?

HINT: Please go to the original post to this thread.

Now please answer Gene's question. You are obviously the expert. ;-)

Umbrella policies being gutted by State Farm
 

Dan wrote:
nada wrote:
HK wrote:
Hamish wrote:
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal
umbrella policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always
comes with it said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a
person or organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is
no longer covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not
covered. If I loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor,
they're not covered. If my ski boat was running - it isn't right
now - and I let a friend drive it to tow me, he's not covered.
(Yes, I know that my "underlying" car insurance covers them up to
the limits of that policy, but those limits are only enough to pay
for a stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and
asked me to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called
the underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to
quote me the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies up
to the same limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella. An
additional $206 per year. I will pay the money, because I own a
home and it is vital that I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a
lot of other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the
brochure is 17 pages long), will simply write the check like they do
every other year, and will end up with a big gap in their coverage.
And their insurance agent won't take the trouble to call them or
write them a personal letter telling about the big gap that just
opened up in their coverage. So, look out! And warn your friends.

Ham


Not to worry; it's just part of corporate America's full screw the
individual plan, brought to you and helped along by the Bush
Administration, which doesn't really truly believe in any sort of
regulation, except on civil liberties.

Many refuse to recognize it. The administration is about eliminating
"unnecessary regulation, which is to say all regulation of big
business. The credit card industry managed to gain all control and
regulation of its dealings with customers and in the process anyone
that has any "contract" with big business. They write unilateral
contracts and have the power to change and enforce them. They reserve
the right to use our judicial system to enforce them but virtually
eliminate the citizen access to redress of our Laws and Courts.
The food supply is no longer safe. Adulteration of our foods is now
allowed to be labeled all natural and so and so on.
Big business has gotten every thing on its dream list in the last
several years including unregulated oil industry which operates as a
cabal.
Their definitional of free trade and elimination of unnecessary
government etc is survival of the consumer and citizen in the jungle
full of their predation.
Caveat Emptor is more relevant today than anytime, in history.
Our Republic is seriously wounded.

Where do you get this crap? The Onion?
You label anything offensive that does not conform to your apparent self
interests. Either that or you don't care to look at the facts.
I suggest you look at facts with reason and logic and not some
allegiance, blind or otherwise.