You're right, I was out of line.

I was frustrated from something else entirely (car accident) but it spilled
over when I saw that link for the 8 millionth time and heard the same old
Sea Ray bashing.

My apologies.

To be fair, we can't be sure that Larry knew that quote existed. It's from
DP's
article about the Sea Ray 250, a vessel nearly 10-feet longer than Larry's
boat, and possibly therefore not the type of boat that he's interested in
learning about. Also, DP's site is very extensive, with something over 100
"opinion pieces" (most extremely unflattering and somewhat negative in
tone)
and few people have read the entire site from end to end.

Good advice Bill.

I use the NG more for direction finding. Such as the idea of switching my
tachs to determine if the low reading is an accurate reading (actually low)
or tach related.

When it comes to "actual" stuff I rely on the mechanics and other pros at
the marina. They might be wrong too but they're insured.

"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:IWo3b.220415$Oz4.58914@rwcrnsc54...
Paul,

Gould is a very knowledgeable boater and when he discusses boating he is
very rarely wrong. However, I would not use any of the information you
receive in this NG or any NG as the gospel without double checking with a
reliable book or expert. Too often incorrect or unsafe information is
given
by well meaning individuals.

This newsgroup is a great place to chit chat, don't use it as a reliable
source of factual information. For ever good answer (such as most of the
ones provided by Gould) you will find tons of bad answers.


"Paul" wrote in message
e.rogers.com...
If I can pipe up he

Larry, it seems that many of us here (like me) are new boaters and we
use
this newsgroup mainly to learn about the mystifying world of boating.

Your point about that Searay is well taken but now Gould has provided
another comment from the exact same source you've quoted.

I don't appreciate the fact that you knew this quote existed and you
purposely ignored it. If you have a problem with Searay you should be
adding
the caveat that your personal experience is different. I understand you
own
a lemon and I'm sorry you got suckered into buying it but that's no
reason
to purposely offer only partial info from third parties and claim it as
the
complete story. It is unfair to those of us who are trying to learn.

Boating and all that is related to it is difficult enough to learn
without
people muddying the waters to further their own bitterness about a
certain
product.



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
No, not at all, oh spinning person......I rely on the PICTURES of
pure
**** to drive home the point. They're not as stupid as you think.
They CAN think for themselves. Sea Ray hasn't sued Pascoe to get
falst statements and pictures off the net, have they?

I don't give a damn if Pascoe never typed a thing on this
website.....Just LOOK AT THE PICTURES is more than enough exposure to
the average Joe to tell he doesn't want to expose his family to this
kind or crap, from ANY boat company....



Larry W4CSC

Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make
Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site?


Looking at the pictures, oh angry and cursing person, is most
beneficial
when
one has the expertise to evaluate what is seen.

Just like Fox News, we should strive to be fair and balanced. Here's
a
comment
from
David Pasco regarding Sea Ray's general quality. What do you suppose
he
means
when he uses the phrases "hard to beat"
and "excellent (used boat) value"?

Quote:

Summing up: On the outside, the overall quality is pretty good. Not
much
chintzy hardware, and the basic structures are holding up well. With
care,
it
still looks good. The rub rails aren't all loose, dented and falling
off,
and
stress cracking is minimal. As a used boat, it offers excellent value.
As
a new
boat, they're still hard to beat quality wise, but the quality margin
over
the
competition can be a pretty thin line at times.

Let's see you asked many questions, let me answer them Yes, Yes, Depends
upon what you want to use the boat for. Yes, Yes. ; )

The waves that sunk the Edmund Fitzgerald would sink many boats. The
difference between the average boat and what is considered a bluewater boat
is the thickness of the hull, the lay-up schedule, the strength of the bulk
heads, the backing plates etc. SeaRays are designed to be fun boats for the
average boater. The smaller ones are nice runabouts, the larger ones are
nice weekenders. I would feel very comfortable using a SeaRay on the Great
Lakes, but I would watch the weather carefully no matter what boat I was on.
If you compare a SeaRay to a 60's Hatteras you will see a world of
difference between the quality of the boats. Most people do not want to pay
for a Hatteras. In runabouts Cobalt is the top of the line boat, and most
people would see a difference in the way a Cobalt is built compared to a
SeaRay, but you will pay approx. double for a Cobalt.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:YHv3b.222617$Oz4.59426@rwcrnsc54...
Bill, I would agree that SeaRays are really not designed for fishing, but
what exactly
is it about bluewater that makes it too challenging for SeaRays? The wave
heights?
The swells? Are the fuel tanks too small (not a structural issue)?

Have you ever boated on the Great Lakes? Does the Edmund Fitzgerald ring
a bell?

There are plenty of SeaRays on the Great Lakes. ;-)



"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:dyv3b.289427$uu5.63833@sccrnsc04...
SeaRay is not a bluewater boat. Neither are most boats sold to the
average
consumer. It is a fair weather boat, designed for lake use, inshore or
close to shore use. While the patch shown in Pasco's pictures might
have
been a patch done at the factory, it is definitely a patch and not
reflective of their normal FRP lay-up.

While most of us think a Mercedes or BMW is a better car than Ford, Chev
y
and Honda, very few of us are willing to pay that much for a car. It is
the
same with boats. If you want an offshore battlewagon, a Searay is not
the
boat you want. I don't think Searay markets or sells their boats as
offshore battlewagons. They make a good low to middle priced boat, that
many boaters enjoy.


"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:59:51 GMT, "Paul" wrote:

If I can pipe up he

Larry, it seems that many of us here (like me) are new boaters and we
use
this newsgroup mainly to learn about the mystifying world of boating.

Your point about that Searay is well taken but now Gould has provided
another comment from the exact same source you've quoted.

I don't appreciate the fact that you knew this quote existed and you
purposely ignored it. If you have a problem with Searay you should be
adding
the caveat that your personal experience is different. I understand
you
own
a lemon and I'm sorry you got suckered into buying it but that's no
reason
to purposely offer only partial info from third parties and claim it
as
the
complete story. It is unfair to those of us who are trying to learn.

Boating and all that is related to it is difficult enough to learn
without
people muddying the waters to further their own bitterness about a
certain
product.


There are more negative Searay comments than just the hurricane
pictures
Larry is talking about.
Perhaps the Searay defenders are equally as disingenuous.
Take a look through the entire site ate the Searay reviews and photos.

Actually you never answered my question. Why is a SeaRay suitable for the conditions
on the Great Lakes but not for the conditions in "blue water"?

Are you saying that the ocean conditions are far worse than the Great Lakes can offer?


"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:j4w3b.289614$uu5.63903@sccrnsc04...
Let's see you asked many questions, let me answer them Yes, Yes, Depends
upon what you want to use the boat for. Yes, Yes. ; )

The waves that sunk the Edmund Fitzgerald would sink many boats. The
difference between the average boat and what is considered a bluewater boat
is the thickness of the hull, the lay-up schedule, the strength of the bulk
heads, the backing plates etc. SeaRays are designed to be fun boats for the
average boater. The smaller ones are nice runabouts, the larger ones are
nice weekenders. I would feel very comfortable using a SeaRay on the Great
Lakes, but I would watch the weather carefully no matter what boat I was on.
If you compare a SeaRay to a 60's Hatteras you will see a world of
difference between the quality of the boats. Most people do not want to pay
for a Hatteras. In runabouts Cobalt is the top of the line boat, and most
people would see a difference in the way a Cobalt is built compared to a
SeaRay, but you will pay approx. double for a Cobalt.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:YHv3b.222617$Oz4.59426@rwcrnsc54...
Bill, I would agree that SeaRays are really not designed for fishing, but
what exactly
is it about bluewater that makes it too challenging for SeaRays? The wave
heights?
The swells? Are the fuel tanks too small (not a structural issue)?

Have you ever boated on the Great Lakes? Does the Edmund Fitzgerald ring
a bell?

There are plenty of SeaRays on the Great Lakes. ;-)



"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:dyv3b.289427$uu5.63833@sccrnsc04...
SeaRay is not a bluewater boat. Neither are most boats sold to the
average
consumer. It is a fair weather boat, designed for lake use, inshore or
close to shore use. While the patch shown in Pasco's pictures might
have
been a patch done at the factory, it is definitely a patch and not
reflective of their normal FRP lay-up.

While most of us think a Mercedes or BMW is a better car than Ford, Chev
y
and Honda, very few of us are willing to pay that much for a car. It is
the
same with boats. If you want an offshore battlewagon, a Searay is not
the
boat you want. I don't think Searay markets or sells their boats as
offshore battlewagons. They make a good low to middle priced boat, that
many boaters enjoy.


"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:59:51 GMT, "Paul" wrote:

If I can pipe up he

Larry, it seems that many of us here (like me) are new boaters and we
use
this newsgroup mainly to learn about the mystifying world of boating.

Your point about that Searay is well taken but now Gould has provided
another comment from the exact same source you've quoted.

I don't appreciate the fact that you knew this quote existed and you
purposely ignored it. If you have a problem with Searay you should be
adding
the caveat that your personal experience is different. I understand
you
own
a lemon and I'm sorry you got suckered into buying it but that's no
reason
to purposely offer only partial info from third parties and claim it
as
the
complete story. It is unfair to those of us who are trying to learn.

Boating and all that is related to it is difficult enough to learn
without
people muddying the waters to further their own bitterness about a
certain
product.


There are more negative Searay comments than just the hurricane
pictures
Larry is talking about.
Perhaps the Searay defenders are equally as disingenuous.
Take a look through the entire site ate the Searay reviews and photos.

I doubt the 'Great Lakes freighters' would survive many North Atlantic
crossings.


Jim wrote in message
news:e9w3b.222689$Oz4.59236@rwcrnsc54...
Actually you never answered my question. Why is a SeaRay suitable for the
conditions
on the Great Lakes but not for the conditions in "blue water"?

Are you saying that the ocean conditions are far worse than the Great
Lakes can offer?


"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:j4w3b.289614$uu5.63903@sccrnsc04...
Let's see you asked many questions, let me answer them Yes, Yes, Depends
upon what you want to use the boat for. Yes, Yes. ; )

The waves that sunk the Edmund Fitzgerald would sink many boats. The
difference between the average boat and what is considered a bluewater
boat
is the thickness of the hull, the lay-up schedule, the strength of the
bulk
heads, the backing plates etc. SeaRays are designed to be fun boats for
the
average boater. The smaller ones are nice runabouts, the larger ones
are
nice weekenders. I would feel very comfortable using a SeaRay on the
Great
Lakes, but I would watch the weather carefully no matter what boat I was
on.
If you compare a SeaRay to a 60's Hatteras you will see a world of
difference between the quality of the boats. Most people do not want to
pay
for a Hatteras. In runabouts Cobalt is the top of the line boat, and
most
people would see a difference in the way a Cobalt is built compared to a
SeaRay, but you will pay approx. double for a Cobalt.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:YHv3b.222617$Oz4.59426@rwcrnsc54...
Bill, I would agree that SeaRays are really not designed for fishing,
but
what exactly
is it about bluewater that makes it too challenging for SeaRays? The
wave
heights?
The swells? Are the fuel tanks too small (not a structural issue)?

Have you ever boated on the Great Lakes? Does the Edmund Fitzgerald
ring
a bell?

There are plenty of SeaRays on the Great Lakes. ;-)



"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:dyv3b.289427$uu5.63833@sccrnsc04...
SeaRay is not a bluewater boat. Neither are most boats sold to the
average
consumer. It is a fair weather boat, designed for lake use, inshore
or
close to shore use. While the patch shown in Pasco's pictures might
have
been a patch done at the factory, it is definitely a patch and not
reflective of their normal FRP lay-up.

While most of us think a Mercedes or BMW is a better car than Ford,
Chev
y
and Honda, very few of us are willing to pay that much for a car.
It is
the
same with boats. If you want an offshore battlewagon, a Searay is
not
the
boat you want. I don't think Searay markets or sells their boats as
offshore battlewagons. They make a good low to middle priced boat,
that
many boaters enjoy.


"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:59:51 GMT, "Paul"
wrote:

If I can pipe up he

Larry, it seems that many of us here (like me) are new boaters
and we
use
this newsgroup mainly to learn about the mystifying world of
boating.

Your point about that Searay is well taken but now Gould has
provided
another comment from the exact same source you've quoted.

I don't appreciate the fact that you knew this quote existed and
you
purposely ignored it. If you have a problem with Searay you
should be
adding
the caveat that your personal experience is different. I
understand
you
own
a lemon and I'm sorry you got suckered into buying it but that's
no
reason
to purposely offer only partial info from third parties and claim
it
as
the
complete story. It is unfair to those of us who are trying to
learn.

Boating and all that is related to it is difficult enough to
learn
without
people muddying the waters to further their own bitterness about
a
certain
product.


There are more negative Searay comments than just the hurricane
pictures
Larry is talking about.
Perhaps the Searay defenders are equally as disingenuous.
Take a look through the entire site ate the Searay reviews and
photos.

The difference is being able to outrun bad weather. Bluewater is normally
considered way offshore, (I normally think about it being over 100 miles
offshore, some people think bluewater is when you cross an ocean, who the
heck knows). If you are in the middle of the Great Lakes and a fast front
moves through, you may not be able to outrun it, but a fast front will also
blow over quickly. I have seen sailboats demasted by storms in both the
Great Lakes and the ocean. An heavy built boat will continue to float after
being demasted, a lightly built sailboat can actually crack in half. I
think it was in San Diego America's Cup, a boat built for 15 knots winds
split in the middle when the wind picked up to 20 knots.

If you are boating close to shore, I would not worry about boating in a
SeaRay. If I was boating offshore I would watch the weather faxes and
forecasts no matter what boat I was in. It is possible that a SeaRay would
have survived the storm that sunk the Ed. Fitz., but I would not want to be
riding out the storm in a SeaRay. The stress put on a small boat is
completely different than a large ship.



"Jim" wrote in message
news:e9w3b.222689$Oz4.59236@rwcrnsc54...
Actually you never answered my question. Why is a SeaRay suitable for the
conditions
on the Great Lakes but not for the conditions in "blue water"?

Are you saying that the ocean conditions are far worse than the Great
Lakes can offer?


"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:j4w3b.289614$uu5.63903@sccrnsc04...
Let's see you asked many questions, let me answer them Yes, Yes, Depends
upon what you want to use the boat for. Yes, Yes. ; )

The waves that sunk the Edmund Fitzgerald would sink many boats. The
difference between the average boat and what is considered a bluewater
boat
is the thickness of the hull, the lay-up schedule, the strength of the
bulk
heads, the backing plates etc. SeaRays are designed to be fun boats for
the
average boater. The smaller ones are nice runabouts, the larger ones
are
nice weekenders. I would feel very comfortable using a SeaRay on the
Great
Lakes, but I would watch the weather carefully no matter what boat I was
on.
If you compare a SeaRay to a 60's Hatteras you will see a world of
difference between the quality of the boats. Most people do not want to
pay
for a Hatteras. In runabouts Cobalt is the top of the line boat, and
most
people would see a difference in the way a Cobalt is built compared to a
SeaRay, but you will pay approx. double for a Cobalt.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:YHv3b.222617$Oz4.59426@rwcrnsc54...
Bill, I would agree that SeaRays are really not designed for fishing,
but
what exactly
is it about bluewater that makes it too challenging for SeaRays? The
wave
heights?
The swells? Are the fuel tanks too small (not a structural issue)?

Have you ever boated on the Great Lakes? Does the Edmund Fitzgerald
ring
a bell?

There are plenty of SeaRays on the Great Lakes. ;-)



"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:dyv3b.289427$uu5.63833@sccrnsc04...
SeaRay is not a bluewater boat. Neither are most boats sold to the
average
consumer. It is a fair weather boat, designed for lake use, inshore
or
close to shore use. While the patch shown in Pasco's pictures might
have
been a patch done at the factory, it is definitely a patch and not
reflective of their normal FRP lay-up.

While most of us think a Mercedes or BMW is a better car than Ford,
Chev
y
and Honda, very few of us are willing to pay that much for a car.
It is
the
same with boats. If you want an offshore battlewagon, a Searay is
not
the
boat you want. I don't think Searay markets or sells their boats as
offshore battlewagons. They make a good low to middle priced boat,
that
many boaters enjoy.


"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:59:51 GMT, "Paul"
wrote:

If I can pipe up he

Larry, it seems that many of us here (like me) are new boaters
and we
use
this newsgroup mainly to learn about the mystifying world of
boating.

Your point about that Searay is well taken but now Gould has
provided
another comment from the exact same source you've quoted.

I don't appreciate the fact that you knew this quote existed and
you
purposely ignored it. If you have a problem with Searay you
should be
adding
the caveat that your personal experience is different. I
understand
you
own
a lemon and I'm sorry you got suckered into buying it but that's
no
reason
to purposely offer only partial info from third parties and claim
it
as
the
complete story. It is unfair to those of us who are trying to
learn.

Boating and all that is related to it is difficult enough to
learn
without
people muddying the waters to further their own bitterness about
a
certain
product.


There are more negative Searay comments than just the hurricane
pictures
Larry is talking about.
Perhaps the Searay defenders are equally as disingenuous.
Take a look through the entire site ate the Searay reviews and
photos.

"Don White" wrote in message
...
I doubt the 'Great Lakes freighters' would survive many North Atlantic
crossings.

Ummm...sorry to inform you Don but they do all the time.

So it is more hull design vs layup and structure (as you originally contended). ;-)

BTW: Fronts do not necessarily blow over quickly on the Great Lakes. They can last as
long and can be as severe as storms over the oceans.



"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:O_w3b.287041$o%2.132449@sccrnsc02...
The difference is being able to outrun bad weather. Bluewater is normally
considered way offshore, (I normally think about it being over 100 miles
offshore, some people think bluewater is when you cross an ocean, who the
heck knows). If you are in the middle of the Great Lakes and a fast front
moves through, you may not be able to outrun it, but a fast front will also
blow over quickly. I have seen sailboats demasted by storms in both the
Great Lakes and the ocean. An heavy built boat will continue to float after
being demasted, a lightly built sailboat can actually crack in half. I
think it was in San Diego America's Cup, a boat built for 15 knots winds
split in the middle when the wind picked up to 20 knots.

If you are boating close to shore, I would not worry about boating in a
SeaRay. If I was boating offshore I would watch the weather faxes and
forecasts no matter what boat I was in. It is possible that a SeaRay would
have survived the storm that sunk the Ed. Fitz., but I would not want to be
riding out the storm in a SeaRay. The stress put on a small boat is
completely different than a large ship.



"Jim" wrote in message
news:e9w3b.222689$Oz4.59236@rwcrnsc54...
Actually you never answered my question. Why is a SeaRay suitable for the
conditions
on the Great Lakes but not for the conditions in "blue water"?

Are you saying that the ocean conditions are far worse than the Great
Lakes can offer?


"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:j4w3b.289614$uu5.63903@sccrnsc04...
Let's see you asked many questions, let me answer them Yes, Yes, Depends
upon what you want to use the boat for. Yes, Yes. ; )

The waves that sunk the Edmund Fitzgerald would sink many boats. The
difference between the average boat and what is considered a bluewater
boat
is the thickness of the hull, the lay-up schedule, the strength of the
bulk
heads, the backing plates etc. SeaRays are designed to be fun boats for
the
average boater. The smaller ones are nice runabouts, the larger ones
are
nice weekenders. I would feel very comfortable using a SeaRay on the
Great
Lakes, but I would watch the weather carefully no matter what boat I was
on.
If you compare a SeaRay to a 60's Hatteras you will see a world of
difference between the quality of the boats. Most people do not want to
pay
for a Hatteras. In runabouts Cobalt is the top of the line boat, and
most
people would see a difference in the way a Cobalt is built compared to a
SeaRay, but you will pay approx. double for a Cobalt.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:YHv3b.222617$Oz4.59426@rwcrnsc54...
Bill, I would agree that SeaRays are really not designed for fishing,
but
what exactly
is it about bluewater that makes it too challenging for SeaRays? The
wave
heights?
The swells? Are the fuel tanks too small (not a structural issue)?

Have you ever boated on the Great Lakes? Does the Edmund Fitzgerald
ring
a bell?

There are plenty of SeaRays on the Great Lakes. ;-)



"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:dyv3b.289427$uu5.63833@sccrnsc04...
SeaRay is not a bluewater boat. Neither are most boats sold to the
average
consumer. It is a fair weather boat, designed for lake use, inshore
or
close to shore use. While the patch shown in Pasco's pictures might
have
been a patch done at the factory, it is definitely a patch and not
reflective of their normal FRP lay-up.

While most of us think a Mercedes or BMW is a better car than Ford,
Chev
y
and Honda, very few of us are willing to pay that much for a car.
It is
the
same with boats. If you want an offshore battlewagon, a Searay is
not
the
boat you want. I don't think Searay markets or sells their boats as
offshore battlewagons. They make a good low to middle priced boat,
that
many boaters enjoy.


"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:59:51 GMT, "Paul"
wrote:

If I can pipe up he

Larry, it seems that many of us here (like me) are new boaters
and we
use
this newsgroup mainly to learn about the mystifying world of
boating.

Your point about that Searay is well taken but now Gould has
provided
another comment from the exact same source you've quoted.

I don't appreciate the fact that you knew this quote existed and
you
purposely ignored it. If you have a problem with Searay you
should be
adding
the caveat that your personal experience is different. I
understand
you
own
a lemon and I'm sorry you got suckered into buying it but that's
no
reason
to purposely offer only partial info from third parties and claim
it
as
the
complete story. It is unfair to those of us who are trying to
learn.

Boating and all that is related to it is difficult enough to
learn
without
people muddying the waters to further their own bitterness about
a
certain
product.


There are more negative Searay comments than just the hurricane
pictures
Larry is talking about.
Perhaps the Searay defenders are equally as disingenuous.
Take a look through the entire site ate the Searay reviews and
photos.

"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:O_w3b.287041$o%2.132449@sccrnsc02...
The difference is being able to outrun bad weather. Bluewater is normally
considered way offshore, (I normally think about it being over 100 miles
offshore, some people think bluewater is when you cross an ocean, who the
heck knows). If you are in the middle of the Great Lakes and a fast front
moves through, you may not be able to outrun it, but a fast front will also
blow over quickly. I have seen sailboats demasted by storms in both the
Great Lakes and the ocean. An heavy built boat will continue to float after
being demasted, a lightly built sailboat can actually crack in half. I
think it was in San Diego America's Cup, a boat built for 15 knots winds
split in the middle when the wind picked up to 20 knots.

If you are boating close to shore, I would not worry about boating in a
SeaRay.

People do not boat "off shore" on the Great Lakes in a Sea Ray? Lakes Superior and
Huron are close to 200 miles in breadth.

http://coas****ch.glerl.noaa.gov/sta.../physical.html

And "blue water" is 100 miles off shore??????? Really? Perhaps to you because it now
suits your argument.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:19:58 GMT, "Bill Cole"
wrote:
Bluewater is normally
considered way offshore, (I normally think about it being over 100 miles
offshore, some people think bluewater is when you cross an ocean, who the
heck knows).
==========================

"Blue Water" actually begins when you go off soundings at the edge of
the continental shelf. Along much of the east coast, this is in the
range of 60 to 100 miles offshore. On the Pacific coast it is much
closer. The color of the water actually does change to a dark
iridescent blue which is hard to describe. Blue water is generally
used to describe conditions of large, deep, open water where you are
too far from port to easily return in the event of bad weather.