On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 08:47:28 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

There's a difference between having a beer on a summer afternoon and
being a "drunk".

It's a little more complicated than that.

The combination of alcohol and sun can lead to dehydration - even one
can cause the effect if one hasn't taken precautions by drinking
non-caffinated beverages like water or a sports drink. Even one 12
ounce can of beer can do the trick - in particular if somebody hasn't
eaten or had some water along the way.

If you are just sitting on your house deck, drinking a beer and eating
a burger, that's not going to create a problem as such.

On a boat, that's a whole different story. Movement, wind, the
accelerated dual effect of direct sun and reflected sun can dehydrate
you in short order. Add 12 ounces of beer, it's possible that you can
have or be a problem in short order.

The sad thing is you won't even know it until it happens. All of a
sudden, exhaustion sets in. A cold beer sounds gppd and the effect in
compounded.

When I was active with the local Vollies, I've seen it happen a number
of times on local lakes - I only had one beer.

Never doubted it for a second. :)

I thought Carrie Nation and Temperance Unions were ancient history.
Good thing they didn't catch one of the canoeists or kayakers smokin a
doobie.....if beer warrants a ticket those uptight puritans would
probably lynch somebody found with a joint.

Not the issue and I'm surprised that you would make such a statement.

An open container law bans an open container of alcohol in the
passenger compartment of a vehicle and/or boat. The goal is to stop
people from drinking and driving, it almost goes without saying that
an open container law should stop people from drinking WHILE driving.

And that's really the issue - drinking while driving and boating.

No wonder the entire world seems to be moving to the west coast! :-)

You ought to check our own state's Open Container law then because
it's one of the more drastic ones in terms of fines and effects.

On Jul 8, 12:32?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 08:47:28 -0700, Chuck Gould

wrote:
There's a difference between having a beer on a summer afternoon and
being a "drunk".

It's a little more complicated than that.

The combination of alcohol and sun can lead to dehydration - even one
can cause the effect if one hasn't taken precautions by drinking
non-caffinated beverages like water or a sports drink. Even one 12
ounce can of beer can do the trick - in particular if somebody hasn't
eaten or had some water along the way.

If you are just sitting on your house deck, drinking a beer and eating
a burger, that's not going to create a problem as such.

On a boat, that's a whole different story. Movement, wind, the
accelerated dual effect of direct sun and reflected sun can dehydrate
you in short order. Add 12 ounces of beer, it's possible that you can
have or be a problem in short order.

The sad thing is you won't even know it until it happens. All of a
sudden, exhaustion sets in. A cold beer sounds gppd and the effect in
compounded.

When I was active with the local Vollies, I've seen it happen a number
of times on local lakes - I only had one beer.

Never doubted it for a second. :)

I thought Carrie Nation and Temperance Unions were ancient history.
Good thing they didn't catch one of the canoeists or kayakers smokin a
doobie.....if beer warrants a ticket those uptight puritans would
probably lynch somebody found with a joint.

Not the issue and I'm surprised that you would make such a statement.

An open container law bans an open container of alcohol in the
passenger compartment of a vehicle and/or boat. The goal is to stop
people from drinking and driving, it almost goes without saying that
an open container law should stop people from drinking WHILE driving.

And that's really the issue - drinking while driving and boating.

No wonder the entire world seems to be moving to the west coast! :-)

You ought to check our own state's Open Container law then because
it's one of the more drastic ones in terms of fines and effects.

I agree that it's questionable to allow people to drink on board, but
there's a sliding scale of risk that effectively decreases as the size
of the boat increases. Those large charter and sightseeing boats run
non-stop bars. Booze was easily available on our recent cruise ship
vacation 24 hours a day. 2400 passengers, most of them drinking at
least a little bit every day for a week straight and some almost non-
stop, and not a single incident where the safety of the vessel was
compromised or the risk of going overboard was dramatically increased.

I offer again my example from earlier in this thread. Joe Doaks has a
party of guests out for an afternoon cruise. Joe isn't drinking, and
in fact he's piloting the boat from the flybridge. Down below in the
salon, Mrs. Doaks is serving Margaritas to a couple guests of legal
drinking age. Is Joe Doaks a criminal? Should he be hauled into court
and made to answer for his behavior? In many states, certain boating
offenses cross reference to your vehicular driving license, so should
stone sober Joe's car insurance be cancelled or his premiums be
doubled because somebody else on his boat (well out of reach of the
skipper) had an alcoholic beverage?

Last year at our Seafair hydroplane races the Seattle cops did one of
these mass arrest deals. They had to rent portable jails to lock up
everybody they were processing. The difference was, the Seattle cops
where targeting people exhibiting drunken behavior (not merely people
who might be having a beer while watching the hydroplane races). The
Seattle cops also focused on underage drinkers.

I've always like the European approach to alcohol. In many societies
it's common to serve beer to school kids, and entire families often
enjoy a drink together. The difference is that becoming publicly
intoxicated is a very serious screw up, and getting caught DWI will
typically result in very serious punishment even for "first
offenders".

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:03:59 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

I offer again my example from earlier in this thread. Joe Doaks has a
party of guests out for an afternoon cruise. Joe isn't drinking, and
in fact he's piloting the boat from the flybridge. Down below in the
salon, Mrs. Doaks is serving Margaritas to a couple guests of legal
drinking age. Is Joe Doaks a criminal? Should he be hauled into court
and made to answer for his behavior? In many states, certain boating
offenses cross reference to your vehicular driving license, so should
stone sober Joe's car insurance be cancelled or his premiums be
doubled because somebody else on his boat (well out of reach of the
skipper) had an alcoholic beverage?

How do you make the distinction between passengers and Captain? Do
the passengers have a sign on their backs that says "Passenger"?

Look, I'm not totally convinced that the situation that originated
this discussion was reasonable - there is a point where enforcing the
law requires descretion and balance - I totally agree.

However, if there is a history of abuse in a particular area and the
users and bordering neighbors complain about same, then drastic
enforcement may be required as a warning.

I'm sure the cops would much rather be out doing other things than
bsting some poor stiff who had a Bud while paddling down the river.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:03:59 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

I offer again my example from earlier in this thread. Joe Doaks has a
party of guests out for an afternoon cruise. Joe isn't drinking, and
in fact he's piloting the boat from the flybridge. Down below in the
salon, Mrs. Doaks is serving Margaritas to a couple guests of legal
drinking age. Is Joe Doaks a criminal? Should he be hauled into court
and made to answer for his behavior? In many states, certain boating
offenses cross reference to your vehicular driving license, so should
stone sober Joe's car insurance be cancelled or his premiums be
doubled because somebody else on his boat (well out of reach of the
skipper) had an alcoholic beverage?

How do you make the distinction between passengers and Captain? Do
the passengers have a sign on their backs that says "Passenger"?

Look, I'm not totally convinced that the situation that originated
this discussion was reasonable - there is a point where enforcing the
law requires descretion and balance - I totally agree.

However, if there is a history of abuse in a particular area and the
users and bordering neighbors complain about same, then drastic
enforcement may be required as a warning.

I'm sure the cops would much rather be out doing other things than
bsting some poor stiff who had a Bud while paddling down the river.

SWF,
There are many states where it is legal to have an open container in a
boat, as long as the driver is below the legal limit. If they come up
to the boat while it is underway, it is easy to see who is behind the
wheel, if they are at anchor, they just ask who is the driver.

I have been stopped for a safety check after having a beer, and have
never had them ask me to blow into anything, I guess I either didn't
have any smell of alcohol on my breath, or they can tell the difference
between one beer and 6.

Today, I don't bring any beer on board, but would allow a passenger to
bring some as long as they limited their consumption so they will be
below the legal limit at the end of the day. I don't want anyone to be
driving home drunk. I figure a beer an hour will keep someone below .08.

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:44:10 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Today, I don't bring any beer on board, but would allow a passenger to
bring some as long as they limited their consumption so they will be
below the legal limit at the end of the day. I don't want anyone to be
driving home drunk. I figure a beer an hour will keep someone below .08.

Now there's another consideration.

When I was running SWS semi-full time, the rule was no alcohol onboard
- period. I even turned around and returned to the dock when one
client brought some orange juice on board spiked with vodka. (By the
way, don't believe it when they tell you vodka doesn't smell - its
does).

Now when we returned to the dock, that was another story. Break out
the case of beer kept on ice in the slip's storage locker and let's
sit back and talk over the trip. I always kept an eye on that though
because of the very reason you stated - I didn't want anybody driving
home intoxicated.

It seems to me that there are a number of different ways of looking at
this open container law.

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:09:03 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

I'm sure the cops would much rather be out doing other things than
bsting some poor stiff who had a Bud while paddling down the river.

And that is most likely part of the issue in this case. Cops are
ordered out on a holiday to enforce what is no doubt questionable law.
Cops resent assignment, and decide to go over the top in an attempt to
discourage further similar efforts.

On Jul 9, 4:09?am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:03:59 -0700, Chuck Gould

wrote:
I offer again my example from earlier in this thread. Joe Doaks has a
party of guests out for an afternoon cruise. Joe isn't drinking, and
in fact he's piloting the boat from the flybridge. Down below in the
salon, Mrs. Doaks is serving Margaritas to a couple guests of legal
drinking age. Is Joe Doaks a criminal? Should he be hauled into court
and made to answer for his behavior? In many states, certain boating
offenses cross reference to your vehicular driving license, so should
stone sober Joe's car insurance be cancelled or his premiums be
doubled because somebody else on his boat (well out of reach of the
skipper) had an alcoholic beverage?

How do you make the distinction between passengers and Captain? Do
the passengers have a sign on their backs that says "Passenger"?


I make the same distinction between the passengers, (who absolutely
should not drink to excess, would be better advised not to drink at
all underway, and whose behavior should *not* result in law
enforcement
action against the skipper of the boat), and the vessel operator that
a law enforecement officer would. Who is at the helm when the vessel
is first observed?

Highway example: A cop pulls a car to the side of the road in the wee
hours of a Sunday morning. Upon approching the vehicle, he or she
notes that there are six people inside the vehicle and that five of
them are behaving in a boisterous manner. There is absolutely no doubt
that nearly everybody in the car is seriously drunk. The driver is
asked to step out and demonstrate sobriety. The driver recites the
alphabet backwards, balances on one foot, touches his finger to his
nose, and blows "zero". To make it interesting, let's say the actual
owner of the car is one of the drunks ready to pass out in the back
seat. Has there been a crime committed? IMO, no. The designated driver
was acting responsibly and doing his or her job. Without the services
of the designated driver, there might have been five drunks in five
separate cars all swerving down the road after the bars closed.

Differences on the water: I don't edorse a designated driver approach
to boating. It's definitely safer and more prudent to have everybody
aboard sober enough to be of assistance if there is an emergency and/
or able to contribute to their own survival and rescue should somebody
fall overboard. The scenario where everybody aboard a boat is stinking
drunk except the skipper is an invitation for a disaster. However,
there's quite a gap between adult guests enjoying a couple of drinks
during the course of a summer afternoon and a "boatload of drunks".

And it does get complicated. Some people shouldn't drink at all, as
their ability to *stop* seems to disappear with the second or third
swallow and their behavior changes radically. Those who allow alcohol
to be served aboard a boat need to be aware of the condition of the
folks who are accepting such service and have the guts to say "I think
you've had enough until we get back to the dock" when that's
appropriate.

My solution is to target behavior that effects others. Being publicly
obnoxious is one such behavior. Operating a vessel or vehicle while
impaired is another. Stopping for a picnic lunch in the middle of a
hot afternoon and sipping a cold beer in the shade of an overhanging
tree won't harm anybody, particularly if the vessel operator has a
diet cola instead.




Look, I'm not totally convinced that the situation that originated
this discussion was reasonable - there is a point where enforcing the
law requires descretion and balance - I totally agree.

However, if there is a history of abuse in a particular area and the
users and bordering neighbors complain about same, then drastic
enforcement may be required as a warning.


Unfortunately, one neighbor complaining 100 times often gets the same
response as 50 neighbors all complaining twice.





I'm sure the cops would much rather be out doing other things than
bsting some poor stiff who had a Bud while paddling down the river.

I'm sure that we're in complete agreement on that issue. Particularly
since when several hundred people are stopped a few of them,
statistically, are likely to be off-duty cops. :-)

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:03:59 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

snippity-snip

I've always like the European approach to alcohol. In many societies
it's common to serve beer to school kids, and entire families often
enjoy a drink together. The difference is that becoming publicly
intoxicated is a very serious screw up, and getting caught DWI will
typically result in very serious punishment even for "first
offenders".

In a lot of European countries the tradition of giving wine and beer
to kids at meals comes from the poor quality of their water supply.
Mark E. Williams