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The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On 7 May 2007 15:06:51 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote: You certainly succeeded in demonstrating the absurdity that either political party controls gas prices. Oil companies control gas prices. So buy an oil company, or at least a few shares in one. Prices are reasonable and most pay a decent dividend. The truth is that oil companies buy their feedstock and sell their product in open auction markets. Find out who is bidding up prices and ask them to stop. This all involves a radical new economic theory called supply and demand. As an alternative you can move to Venezuela. They are subsidizing the price of petro products to their citizens at dirt cheap prices. Some day they will still have low prices but nothing left to sell. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On May 7, 3:31?pm, "RCE" wrote:
I really don't think oil companies or politicians have much control over this. Eisboch Oil companies don't control what they charge for refined products? A 42 gallon bbl of oil produces about 20 gallons of gas and about 7 gallons of diesel- along with some other petroluem products that are sold at a profit. Even *if* the entire cost of raw materials was passed through solely to the gasoline consumer, (and it certainly isn't), a $1 jump in the price of a barrel of oil would only ad 5 cents to the price of a gallon of gas. Even under a ridiculous scenario where diesel and misc. petroleum products got a free ride on the back of gasoline, the $10 increase in a bbl of oil since January should result in a 50-cent run-up, not $1.25. In reality, the raw materials cost is spread to diesel and other refined products so the increased cost of crude oil reflected in the price of a gallon of gas is probably closer to 30-cents (not 50) since January. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On May 7, 3:18?pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message ps.com... You certainly succeeded in demonstrating the absurdity that either political party controls gas prices. Go away and think for 20 minutes about how this situation is connected to cheaper goods from overseas. Demand for oil overseas raises competition for a world wide commodity. Pretty obvious. That affects the price of a bbl of oil more than refined products, however. Because the environmental laws are lax or worse in many of those developing economies it's a lot cheaper to refine the oil there than it would be to refine it here and then ship it overseas again. We may be competing with the Chinese for crude, but not for refined products from US refineries. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message oups.com... On May 7, 3:31?pm, "RCE" wrote: I really don't think oil companies or politicians have much control over this. Eisboch Oil companies don't control what they charge for refined products? A 42 gallon bbl of oil produces about 20 gallons of gas and about 7 gallons of diesel- along with some other petroluem products that are sold at a profit. Even *if* the entire cost of raw materials was passed through solely to the gasoline consumer, (and it certainly isn't), a $1 jump in the price of a barrel of oil would only ad 5 cents to the price of a gallon of gas. Even under a ridiculous scenario where diesel and misc. petroleum products got a free ride on the back of gasoline, the $10 increase in a bbl of oil since January should result in a 50-cent run-up, not $1.25. In reality, the raw materials cost is spread to diesel and other refined products so the increased cost of crude oil reflected in the price of a gallon of gas is probably closer to 30-cents (not 50) since January. You are considering raw material costs only. There are many other costs involved ... salaries, refinery operations and maintenance, benefits, retirement plans and the pressure of stockholders to meet expectations or announced guidance. I think the oil companies have to play a forecasting and averaging game which is why the same gas from the same barrel of crude can go up 30 cents a gallon in a week. They are not pricing on what a barrel of crude is today, but rather on what they think it will be a month, 6 months or a year from now. Factor in the demand issue .... (at some price demand will drop) ... and crude costs may go down .... but the other costs and pressure for profits continue. I suspect it's very complex. I know from personal experience and on a much, much more simple scale, that a public company with stockholders watching daily to meet announced expectations that it is a very different way of doing business now-a-days. When my company went from being a small, private ma and pa type operation to part of a much larger (1B+) public company the whole world changed in terms of what was important. (Which is also why I retired g) Eisboch |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On May 7, 3:59�pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On 7 May 2007 15:06:51 -0700, Chuck Gould wrote: You certainly succeeded in demonstrating the absurdity that either political party controls gas prices. Oil companies control gas prices. So buy an oil company, or at least a few shares in one. *Prices are reasonable and most pay a decent dividend. The truth is that oil companies buy their feedstock and sell their product in open auction markets. *Find out who is bidding up prices and ask them to stop. *This all involves a radical new economic theory called supply and demand. As an alternative you can move to Venezuela. *They are subsidizing the price of petro products to their citizens at dirt cheap prices. * Some day they will still have low prices but nothing left to sell. I don't begrudge the oil companies' right to be greedy as hell. In fact, unless we want to become a socialist society and economy this porice gouging just comes with the territory. Theoretically, their rape and pillage pricing creates more opportunity for alternative energy technologies to become viable. We've had alternative energy in boating for centuries....it's called sailing. I wouldn't be excited about making the switch to sail, but if were just getting into boating today I'd be more likely than before to take up sailing and fuel prices would be a major factor in that equation. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
HK wrote:
Ahh, so as dumb as a boat purchase was previously, it's even dumber down. Boats...the world's fastest depreciating asset? Fortunately, Parkers are still a hot commodity. Keep telling yourself that, Hank. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On 7 May 2007 16:39:16 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote: On May 7, 3:59?pm, Wayne.B wrote: On 7 May 2007 15:06:51 -0700, Chuck Gould wrote: You certainly succeeded in demonstrating the absurdity that either political party controls gas prices. Oil companies control gas prices. So buy an oil company, or at least a few shares in one. rices are reasonable and most pay a decent dividend. The truth is that oil companies buy their feedstock and sell their product in open auction markets. ind out who is bidding up prices and ask them to stop. his all involves a radical new economic theory called supply and demand. As an alternative you can move to Venezuela. hey are subsidizing the price of petro products to their citizens at dirt cheap prices. Some day they will still have low prices but nothing left to sell. I don't begrudge the oil companies' right to be greedy as hell. In fact, unless we want to become a socialist society and economy this porice gouging just comes with the territory. Theoretically, their rape and pillage pricing creates more opportunity for alternative energy technologies to become viable. We've had alternative energy in boating for centuries....it's called sailing. I wouldn't be excited about making the switch to sail, but if were just getting into boating today I'd be more likely than before to take up sailing and fuel prices would be a major factor in that equation. Just imagine how much better off we'd be if we had the same percent of power from nuclear energy as the French. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On Mon, 07 May 2007 18:46:56 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Mon, 07 May 2007 17:20:52 -0400, HK wrote: I do keep track of resale prices, though, and am pleased that rigs in very good, "low mileage" condition like mine are selling for prices that were about $5000 more than I had in mind for the poster here who gave up boating to become a bad golfer. I guess I'm fortunate that I didn't have to give up boating to become a bad golfer. You're right. Becoming a bad golfer was effortless and required no sacrifice! Now, how much is it going to cost me to get the index below 28? |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On Mon, 7 May 2007 19:02:52 -0300, "Don White"
wrote: "John H." wrote in message .. . You just got blown out of the water. Bedroom full this weekend? You picking fights with everyone you come across this week Johnny? Please explain again how this improves the newsgroup. Tell us again about the most popular transportation in Canada. Surely it's not a gas guzzler, right? Donnie, that *was* funny, and you know it! |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
HK wrote: Our national energy policy, whatever it is (it's a secret) was established by Dick Cheney in 2001 during a series of meetings with oil industry executives.w what i love about this is, when ira magaziner and hilary clintion tried to get us universal health care, the right wing (bill kristol) went ape ****, screaming about secret cabals. when dick cheney hands the country, and 3000 dead troops....over to his oil buddies, no one said a damn thing. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"John H." wrote in message ... On Mon, 7 May 2007 19:02:52 -0300, "Don White" wrote: "John H." wrote in message . .. You just got blown out of the water. Bedroom full this weekend? You picking fights with everyone you come across this week Johnny? Please explain again how this improves the newsgroup. Tell us again about the most popular transportation in Canada. Surely it's not a gas guzzler, right? Donnie, that *was* funny, and you know it! Do you really have that much trouble reading and understanding what you read? No wonder the school system is in such a mess. I said " The best selling car in Canada for a number of years has been the Honda Civic" You do understand the difference between a 'car' and a 'truck' don't you Johnny? |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"wf3h" wrote in message ups.com... HK wrote: Our national energy policy, whatever it is (it's a secret) was established by Dick Cheney in 2001 during a series of meetings with oil industry executives.w what i love about this is, when ira magaziner and hilary clintion tried to get us universal health care To which office was Hillary elected to in 1992? Then what right did she have to make policy that would have destroyed the healthcare system for 260,000,000 Americans with insurance so that 40,000,000 uninsured could get access? |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On Tue, 08 May 2007 03:13:45 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:
"wf3h" wrote in message oups.com... HK wrote: Our national energy policy, whatever it is (it's a secret) was established by Dick Cheney in 2001 during a series of meetings with oil industry executives.w what i love about this is, when ira magaziner and hilary clintion tried to get us universal health care To which office was Hillary elected to in 1992? Then what right did she have to make policy that would have destroyed the healthcare system for 260,000,000 Americans with insurance so that 40,000,000 uninsured could get access? I have a great Hillary story. Back when she was put in "charge" (read Ira Magaziner was in charge - Hillary was just his mouth piece), they had an open Town Meeting in New London to solicite public comments. I was invited by Sam "The Man" Gedenjson who was then the Congressman from the 2nd District which included my town. (I was invited by virtue of some veterens work I had some with Sam and the VA - probably the only thing he ever did as a Congressman that actually had some impact). So, we're at the meeting, there about 150 people, about half senior citizens. During the participatory part, this little old lady stands up at the microphone and asked the following question (paraphrased). "Can you tell me how your proposal will reduce my and my husband's prescription costs, doctor's cost and my husbands stroke therapy payments?" This was Hillary's exact response. "I only deal in policy, I don't deal in specifics". Yep. Never made the news either. :) |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
ups.com... On May 7, 3:18?pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Chuck Gould" wrote in message ps.com... You certainly succeeded in demonstrating the absurdity that either political party controls gas prices. Go away and think for 20 minutes about how this situation is connected to cheaper goods from overseas. Demand for oil overseas raises competition for a world wide commodity. Pretty obvious. That affects the price of a bbl of oil more than refined products, however. Because the environmental laws are lax or worse in many of those developing economies it's a lot cheaper to refine the oil there than it would be to refine it here and then ship it overseas again. We may be competing with the Chinese for crude, but not for refined products from US refineries. I was thinking more along these lines: Although some people inexplicably deny this, higher oil prices affect every link in the manufacturing chain, simply because of freight costs. Now, some businesses may switch to overseas manufacturing because they just feel like cranking up their profit margin ASAP. But others may do so when costs here reach the point where they have a choice of either move, shut their doors for good, or try raising prices and have their customers shut down their companies by refusing to pay those higher costs. To simplify: Do higher oil prices push manufacturing jobs overseas? |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net... "wf3h" wrote in message ups.com... HK wrote: Our national energy policy, whatever it is (it's a secret) was established by Dick Cheney in 2001 during a series of meetings with oil industry executives.w what i love about this is, when ira magaziner and hilary clintion tried to get us universal health care To which office was Hillary elected to in 1992? Then what right did she have to make policy that would have destroyed the healthcare system for 260,000,000 Americans with insurance so that 40,000,000 uninsured could get access? Good question. I'll pair it with another one: To which office was Manucher Ghorbanifar elected to? What right does he have to try and influence our policies? Or, to simplify this for you: Do you think our policy makers speak to absolutely nobody that wasn't elected? |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
RCE wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message oups.com... On May 7, 3:31?pm, "RCE" wrote: I really don't think oil companies or politicians have much control over this. Eisboch Oil companies don't control what they charge for refined products? A 42 gallon bbl of oil produces about 20 gallons of gas and about 7 gallons of diesel- along with some other petroluem products that are sold at a profit. Even *if* the entire cost of raw materials was passed through solely to the gasoline consumer, (and it certainly isn't), a $1 jump in the price of a barrel of oil would only ad 5 cents to the price of a gallon of gas. Even under a ridiculous scenario where diesel and misc. petroleum products got a free ride on the back of gasoline, the $10 increase in a bbl of oil since January should result in a 50-cent run-up, not $1.25. In reality, the raw materials cost is spread to diesel and other refined products so the increased cost of crude oil reflected in the price of a gallon of gas is probably closer to 30-cents (not 50) since January. You are considering raw material costs only. There are many other costs involved ... salaries, refinery operations and maintenance, benefits, retirement plans and the pressure of stockholders to meet expectations or announced guidance. I think the oil companies have to play a forecasting and averaging game which is why the same gas from the same barrel of crude can go up 30 cents a gallon in a week. They are not pricing on what a barrel of crude is today, but rather on what they think it will be a month, 6 months or a year from now. Factor in the demand issue .... (at some price demand will drop) ... and crude costs may go down .... but the other costs and pressure for profits continue. I suspect it's very complex. You also have to factor in the supply issue. Price is a way of manipulating demand. If price remained constant and supply dropped below demand, shortages and/or outages would occur. Lets face it, in a capitalistic market, if someone else can supply more of the same goods for slightly less, making more overall profit, they will. My understanding is that currently there is a shortage of refined product, due to some refineries either off line or retooling. Part of the problem is the hundreds of different formulas required by the feds around the country. I know from personal experience and on a much, much more simple scale, that a public company with stockholders watching daily to meet announced expectations that it is a very different way of doing business now-a-days. When my company went from being a small, private ma and pa type operation to part of a much larger (1B+) public company the whole world changed in terms of what was important. (Which is also why I retired g) Eisboch |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On May 8, 5:40�am, animal05 wrote:
You also have to factor in the supply issue. *Price is a way of manipulating demand. *If price remained constant and supply dropped below demand, shortages and/or outages would occur. *Lets face it, in a capitalistic market, if someone else can supply more of the same goods for slightly less, making more overall profit, they will. *My understanding is that currently there is a shortage of refined product, due to some refineries either off line or retooling. *Part of the problem is the hundreds of different formulas required by the feds around the country. The rules of a capitalistic market do not apply when the raw materials are controlled by an oligopoly. There is no opportunity for new players to enter the field and supply superior or cheaper refined products. Even *if* there were a new and independent refinery built, the operators would need to rely on their competitors for raw materials....not a good business model in any industry. There is a shortage of refined product because world demand has increased to the point where there is no longer any surplus supply. Every drop will sell. By choosing to "retool and repair" refineries during the onset of the peak demand months, the oil companies short the market in some economies and drive prices up dramatically in response. The normal risk of shorting the market is that your competitor will increase supply to meet the demand, which could cost you relationships with your customers and leave you with unsold product. When any member of an oligopoly shorts the market, it benefits the other members as well. There is no need for outright, formal, illegal "collusion". Because worldwide demand exceeds supply, there is no risk of a competitor ramping up production to steal your customers- you will find somebody, somewhere, willing to pay whatever you want to charge. If that attitude disrupts economies or creates hardships for people who have previously relied on a predictable supply of a product at a predictable price that's too fricking bad. The oil companies are in business to make a profit......period. It goes without saying that boating will suffer, probably very badly, as fuel costs go higher and higher every year. That's been the trend for three years, and any realistic person would have to assume that (excuses about refineries, floods, hurricanes, etc aside) it's now the basic business formula for BIGOIL. Few people are going to buy any recreational vessel or vehicle that needs to consume enormous quantities of petroleum products to operate, and who can blame them? Tough as it is when the costs are $4-5 at the fuel dock, imagine what would happen if fuel goes to $6-7, or $7-8? The volatility of fuel prices and the very real possibility that they could be double what they are now in just a couple of years has to discourage any reasonable person from "investing" a couple of hundred thousand in a boat, or taking out a 15-year marine mortgage to make payments for one. I think I can see where we're going on a few fronts over the next few to several years, and I wish the picture were slightly prettier from here. We're entering an era of fewer options for all but the folks in the very highest income brackets, as well as when a flock of consequences begin coming home to roost. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch It's not a "natural" increase...it's a manipulated increase. It's both. Oil is not immune from the laws of supply and demand. But there's an amplifying factor at work too. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message oups.com... On May 8, 5:40?am, animal05 wrote: You also have to factor in the supply issue. Price is a way of manipulating demand. If price remained constant and supply dropped below demand, shortages and/or outages would occur. Lets face it, in a capitalistic market, if someone else can supply more of the same goods for slightly less, making more overall profit, they will. My understanding is that currently there is a shortage of refined product, due to some refineries either off line or retooling. Part of the problem is the hundreds of different formulas required by the feds around the country. The rules of a capitalistic market do not apply when the raw materials are controlled by an oligopoly. There is no opportunity for new players to enter the field and supply superior or cheaper refined products. Even *if* there were a new and independent refinery built, the operators would need to rely on their competitors for raw materials....not a good business model in any industry. There is a shortage of refined product because world demand has increased to the point where there is no longer any surplus supply. Every drop will sell. By choosing to "retool and repair" refineries during the onset of the peak demand months, the oil companies short the market in some economies and drive prices up dramatically in response. The normal risk of shorting the market is that your competitor will increase supply to meet the demand, which could cost you relationships with your customers and leave you with unsold product. When any member of an oligopoly shorts the market, it benefits the other members as well. There is no need for outright, formal, illegal "collusion". Because worldwide demand exceeds supply, there is no risk of a competitor ramping up production to steal your customers- you will find somebody, somewhere, willing to pay whatever you want to charge. If that attitude disrupts economies or creates hardships for people who have previously relied on a predictable supply of a product at a predictable price that's too fricking bad. The oil companies are in business to make a profit......period. It goes without saying that boating will suffer, probably very badly, as fuel costs go higher and higher every year. That's been the trend for three years, and any realistic person would have to assume that (excuses about refineries, floods, hurricanes, etc aside) it's now the basic business formula for BIGOIL. Few people are going to buy any recreational vessel or vehicle that needs to consume enormous quantities of petroleum products to operate, and who can blame them? Tough as it is when the costs are $4-5 at the fuel dock, imagine what would happen if fuel goes to $6-7, or $7-8? The volatility of fuel prices and the very real possibility that they could be double what they are now in just a couple of years has to discourage any reasonable person from "investing" a couple of hundred thousand in a boat, or taking out a 15-year marine mortgage to make payments for one. I think I can see where we're going on a few fronts over the next few to several years, and I wish the picture were slightly prettier from here. We're entering an era of fewer options for all but the folks in the very highest income brackets, as well as when a flock of consequences begin coming home to roost. Most of the retooling of refineries is a government requirement. Going from Winter to Summer Blend. When California had real shortages a couple of years ago, we could not get fuel from Arizona, that had a surplus, because it did not meet the Calif. State blend requirements. And the refineries were required to add MTBE. The stuff ate up seals at an extreme rate. One of the reasons there were more refinery fires. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. .. Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch The problem with preaching conservation is that the suggested methods usually involve long term solutions. I wonder what would happen if a real president with some balls said the following during one of his TV appearances: "I can fund research until the cows come home, but we might never find solutions which make every type of vehicle more efficient. And, at some point, you have to stop looking for others to find solutions, and volunteer to do the one thing that's inarguably effective. Next time you're ready to buy a car, be honest, and buy based on your real needs. Stop thinking that the only alternative to an SUV is a Ford Focus. Ignore the crap you're being told in the commercials. Is the only reason you bought an SUV that you have a family of 5 and a week's worth of groceries? Wouldn't a van fit your needs equally well? Did you justify the SUV by convincing yourself they were safer, or that you wanted to be able to see over all the other trucks? Did you buy a pickup to haul 3 sheets of plywood just once in the entire time you owned the vehicle? Those aren't reasons. I'm not saying you have to go out and buy a Prius or a Mini-Cooper. But, how about reducing your gas usage by 30%, just by looking at the difference between an SUV and a mini-van? (points to chart with 5 car models shown below) We can't create laws to change your buying habits, and there's nothing I can do about what oil companies charge for fuel. But, you are capable of having a significant impact on how much oil this country uses. If you're not buying a car this year, write to your favorite car manufacturer and tell them what you want to buy when you're ready. If they continue to pile up SUVs at their dealerships, that's their problem, not yours. During WWII, our grandparents planted victory gardens. You can't pick a better car, in order to help this country? Grow up already." Toyota Sequoia SUV: 15/18 mpg Toyota Sienna van: 19/26 mpg Chrysler Town & Country van: 19/26 mpg Ford Crown Victoria: 17/26 mpg Buick Lucerne: 17/28 mpg |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message . .. Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch The problem with preaching conservation is that the suggested methods usually involve long term solutions. I wonder what would happen if a real president with some balls said the following during one of his TV appearances: "I can fund research until the cows come home, but we might never find solutions which make every type of vehicle more efficient. And, at some point, you have to stop looking for others to find solutions, and volunteer to do the one thing that's inarguably effective. Next time you're ready to buy a car, be honest, and buy based on your real needs. Stop thinking that the only alternative to an SUV is a Ford Focus. Ignore the crap you're being told in the commercials. Is the only reason you bought an SUV that you have a family of 5 and a week's worth of groceries? Wouldn't a van fit your needs equally well? Did you justify the SUV by convincing yourself they were safer, or that you wanted to be able to see over all the other trucks? Did you buy a pickup to haul 3 sheets of plywood just once in the entire time you owned the vehicle? Those aren't reasons. I'm not saying you have to go out and buy a Prius or a Mini-Cooper. But, how about reducing your gas usage by 30%, just by looking at the difference between an SUV and a mini-van? (points to chart with 5 car models shown below) We can't create laws to change your buying habits, and there's nothing I can do about what oil companies charge for fuel. But, you are capable of having a significant impact on how much oil this country uses. If you're not buying a car this year, write to your favorite car manufacturer and tell them what you want to buy when you're ready. If they continue to pile up SUVs at their dealerships, that's their problem, not yours. During WWII, our grandparents planted victory gardens. You can't pick a better car, in order to help this country? Grow up already." Toyota Sequoia SUV: 15/18 mpg Toyota Sienna van: 19/26 mpg Chrysler Town & Country van: 19/26 mpg Ford Crown Victoria: 17/26 mpg Buick Lucerne: 17/28 mpg What is an SUV? My wife drives a 1996 S-10 Blazer. It is smaller than the Sienna van. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message . .. Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch The problem with preaching conservation is that the suggested methods usually involve long term solutions. I wonder what would happen if a real president with some balls said the following during one of his TV appearances: "I can fund research until the cows come home, but we might never find solutions which make every type of vehicle more efficient. And, at some point, you have to stop looking for others to find solutions, and volunteer to do the one thing that's inarguably effective. Next time you're ready to buy a car, be honest, and buy based on your real needs. Stop thinking that the only alternative to an SUV is a Ford Focus. Ignore the crap you're being told in the commercials. Is the only reason you bought an SUV that you have a family of 5 and a week's worth of groceries? Wouldn't a van fit your needs equally well? Did you justify the SUV by convincing yourself they were safer, or that you wanted to be able to see over all the other trucks? Did you buy a pickup to haul 3 sheets of plywood just once in the entire time you owned the vehicle? Those aren't reasons. I'm not saying you have to go out and buy a Prius or a Mini-Cooper. But, how about reducing your gas usage by 30%, just by looking at the difference between an SUV and a mini-van? (points to chart with 5 car models shown below) We can't create laws to change your buying habits, and there's nothing I can do about what oil companies charge for fuel. But, you are capable of having a significant impact on how much oil this country uses. If you're not buying a car this year, write to your favorite car manufacturer and tell them what you want to buy when you're ready. If they continue to pile up SUVs at their dealerships, that's their problem, not yours. During WWII, our grandparents planted victory gardens. You can't pick a better car, in order to help this country? Grow up already." Toyota Sequoia SUV: 15/18 mpg Toyota Sienna van: 19/26 mpg Chrysler Town & Country van: 19/26 mpg Ford Crown Victoria: 17/26 mpg Buick Lucerne: 17/28 mpg What is an SUV? My wife drives a 1996 S-10 Blazer. It is smaller than the Sienna van. You know exactly what I mean. Stick with the example shown, since it is 100% valid in this context. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On May 8, 9:28�am, "Eisboch" wrote:
Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. *Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch ?????????????? You start by identifying a group comprised of "those with more left leaning political views" and then begin ascribing a common sentiment to everybody in that group. That's pretty dangerous ground. No group is comprised of people who all think exactly the same way. More left than what? Stereotypes are nearly always wrong. But, to the remainder of your comment..... Is market manipulation the same as a "natural increase" in prices? Will yanking the price up and down to assure that the greener technologies the high prices encourage don't achieve any real economic traction ultimately result in an energy-efficient economy and society? As surely as we're flirting with $4 (very close to that for 92 Octane in a lot of places on the W coast right now) in the late spring and perhaps beyond, prices will begin moderating by July. By fall they'll be "down" to $2.65 a gallon and we'll all be singing "Happy Days are Here Again" until late February 2008. Raping and pillaging at a little higher rate for a little longer every year is a shrewd business practice. No problem with that, you don't get to be a policy maker in a major oil company by being anything less than shrewd. Pile up the mega-billions in profits in a short period of time, and then start loosening the noose before the politicians have to begin listening to the anguished cries of suffering constituents. The oil companies have a right to earn a profit. We don't have any right to cheap oil. The frustration is in being so blatantly manipulated, and a minor amusement is hearing the programmed apologists offering the freshest round of big oil excuses for the various refinery emergencies that just happen to occur during the same strategically beneficial period each year. Conservation remains in the best interest of western civiliation. There are important differences between a national conservation policy that creates some reasonable alternatives to the consumption of petroleum products and a marketing scheme by BIGOIL. I burn bio diesel in the boat and bought a hybrid car. If everybody did only an equivalent amount, we would break the choke hold of BIGOIL. Difference is, I'm not prepared or inclined to *demand* that everybody drive a hybrid, burn bio-diesel, or do something else roughly equivalent. BIGOIL and their crew of apologists does demand that everybody swap a pint of blood for a gallon of gas everytime they need fuel for business or pleasure use. We have a social and physical infrastructure founded on the assumption that cheap oil would be almost eternally available. It's hard to imagine that more than a tiny percentage of folks still think that cheap oil will prevail in the future or that the current and recent annual pricing trends are just flukes. A progressive society would strive toward an orderly transition and energy independence from our professed enemies, but we sit around fairly helplessly and allow a tough situation (that most of us agree is a reality) to do little more than serve as a fig leaf for profiteering by BIGOIL. My boat burns about 2 gph. Even at $15-20 a gallon I could afford to go boating. From a personal perspective, I'm fairly immune to the effects of fuel costs gone out of control. Most of my friends and business associates are boaters or depend on the boating industry for a livlihood (as do I). So yeah, I'm personally pretty concerned about the long term ramifications to boating as a recreational activity and/ or viable business fostered by scandalous profiteering. Yes, even though the oil companies have every legal right to charge as much as they can get away with and even if, in the same position, I would likely do the same. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch It's not a "natural" increase...it's a manipulated increase. If those who advocated increasing gas prices to encourage conservation had their way ... wouldn't that also have been "manipulated"? I think Europeans who, for many, have been paying double what we pay for years are getting a kick out of all our whining. Eisboch |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message
... In message , JoeSpareBedroom sprach forth the following: I'm not saying you have to go out and buy a Prius Good. http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister...article_164968 5.php Speaking of Hummers, perhaps it is environmentally responsible to buy one and squash a Prius with it. The Toyota Prius hybrid is, of course, fuel- efficient. There are, however, environmental costs to mining and smelting (in Canada) 1,000 tons a year of zinc for the battery-powered second motor, and the shipping of the zinc 10,000 miles – trailing a cloud of carbon – to Wales for refining and then to China for turning it into the component that goes to a battery factory in Japan. Opinions differ as to whether acid rain from the Canadian mining and smelting operation is killing vegetation that once absorbed carbon dioxide. But a report from CNW Marketing Research ("Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal") concludes that in "dollars per lifetime mile," a Prius (expected life: 109,000 miles) costs $3.25, compared with $1.95 for a Hummer H3 (expected life: 207,000 miles). .....none of which is relevant to the idea of a leader asking Americans to make behavioral changes that won't hurt a bit, and will actually help. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On May 8, 11:03�am, "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute"
wrote: In . earthlink.net, Calif Bill sprach forth the following: The rules of a capitalistic market do not apply when the raw materials are controlled by an oligopoly. The US produces 1/3 of its own oil consumption, and imports the rest from many countries. There is no opportunity for new players to enter the field and supply superior or cheaper refined products. Not so long as there are 41 insane Senators there isn't. *Sad. Even *if* there were a new and independent refinery built, the operators would need to rely on their competitors for raw materials....not a good business model in any industry. Not all oil companies are drillers and transporters and refiners. There is a shortage of refined product because world demand has increased to the point where there is no longer any surplus supply. Due primarily to the aforementioned insane Senators. If that attitude disrupts economies or creates hardships for people who have previously relied on a predictable supply of a product at a predictable price that's too fricking bad. The oil companies are in business to make a profit......period. And the oil campanies are the only businesses in the entire world that er "in business to make a profit". *Oh, wait. *No they're not. *So your point is worthless. Few people are going to buy any recreational vessel or vehicle that needs to consume enormous quantities of petroleum products to operate, and who can blame them? Tough as it is when the costs are $4-5 at the fuel dock, imagine what would happen if fuel goes to $6-7, or $7-8? All the more reason to open ANWR. I think I can see where we're going on a few fronts over the next few to several years, and I wish the picture were slightly prettier from here. All the more reason to open ANWR. We're entering an era of fewer options for all but the folks in the very highest income brackets, as well as when a flock of consequences begin coming home to roost. All the more reason to open ANWR. Most of the retooling of refineries is a government requirement. *Going from Winter to Summer Blend. *When California had real shortages a couple of years ago, we could not get fuel from Arizona, that had a surplus, because it did not meet the Calif. State blend requirements. All the more reason to storm the statehouse. *And then open ANWR :-). And the refineries were required to add MTBE. *The stuff ate up seals at an extreme rate. *One of the reasons there were more refinery fires. Your tax dollars at ****up. *Anyone notice a theme here? A theme? Yeah, you keep advocating for opening ANWR. :-) USGS estimates that peak production from ANWR would be only about 876,000 bbl a day, and that's ten years or more out there. At current consumption, that's around 3% of US energy needs. There is also no assurance that if the Japanese, the Chinese, or somebody else is willing to pay a lot more for oil recovered from ANWR that a single drop of this crude would ever be refined in or sold in the US. If congress passed a law that oil fron ANWR *must* be refined and sold in the US, that would merely free up some other domestic supply to be sold overseas. Must we rape every last corner of the planet in pursuit of a 19th century economic model before we move forward into the 21st? I'd like to think not. Pleasure boating, as we know it today, may not be part of the landscape before too many more years go by. That could be part of moving forward into the 21st Century. Damn. But whoever said life was fair? |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On Mon, 7 May 2007 23:30:10 -0300, "Don White"
wrote: "John H." wrote in message .. . On Mon, 7 May 2007 19:02:52 -0300, "Don White" wrote: "John H." wrote in message ... You just got blown out of the water. Bedroom full this weekend? You picking fights with everyone you come across this week Johnny? Please explain again how this improves the newsgroup. Tell us again about the most popular transportation in Canada. Surely it's not a gas guzzler, right? Donnie, that *was* funny, and you know it! Do you really have that much trouble reading and understanding what you read? No wonder the school system is in such a mess. I said " The best selling car in Canada for a number of years has been the Honda Civic" You do understand the difference between a 'car' and a 'truck' don't you Johnny? And now you're doing the Canadian Two-Step. Pretty cute, too! |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message
... In message , JoeSpareBedroom sprach forth the following: "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message ... In message , JoeSpareBedroom sprach forth the following: I'm not saying you have to go out and buy a Prius Good. http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister...mns/article_16 4968 5.php Speaking of Hummers, perhaps it is environmentally responsible to buy one and squash a Prius with it. The Toyota Prius hybrid is, of course, fuel- efficient. There are, however, environmental costs to mining and smelting (in Canada) 1,000 tons a year of zinc for the battery-powered second motor, and the shipping of the zinc 10,000 miles – trailing a cloud of carbon – to Wales for refining and then to China for turning it into the component that goes to a battery factory in Japan. Opinions differ as to whether acid rain from the Canadian mining and smelting operation is killing vegetation that once absorbed carbon dioxide. But a report from CNW Marketing Research ("Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal") concludes that in "dollars per lifetime mile," a Prius (expected life: 109,000 miles) costs $3.25, compared with $1.95 for a Hummer H3 (expected life: 207,000 miles). ....none of which is relevant to the idea of a leader asking Americans to make behavioral changes that won't hurt a bit, and will actually help. You mean like getting the Senate to get the **** out of the way and opening ANWR? That's an example of something that's contentious, and could take forever to deal with. Sort of like the never ending debate about the meaning of the 2nd amendment. Meanwhile, asking people to grow up and take responsibility for their actions is free, and will actually work, starting immediately. Are you resistant to the idea of voluntary behavioral changes? |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On May 8, 11:40?am, "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute"
wrote: In oglegroups.com, Chuck Gould sprach forth the following: Must we rape every last corner of the planet Ah, demagoguery - such pathetic pretty words compose thee. Ah, obfuscation- those who cannot address the argument will take issue with a single phrase. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message
... Meanwhile, asking people to grow up and take responsibility for their actions is free, and will actually work, starting immediately. So you're going to tell a single mom making $8 an hour that they need to trade in their 1983 Electra for a $22,000 Accord? How is that "free"? Are you resistant to the idea of voluntary behavioral changes? Nothing that involves government is voluntary. Government is by definition coercion ("you must") or proscription ("you can't"). That you do not understand this most basic concept explains the inanity of most of your posts. I never said anything about telling anyone to trade in their car immediately. I'm talking about upcoming purchases. And, there is nothing coercive about a president using his TV time to ask people to rethink their habits. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message ... Meanwhile, asking people to grow up and take responsibility for their actions is free, and will actually work, starting immediately. So you're going to tell a single mom making $8 an hour that they need to trade in their 1983 Electra for a $22,000 Accord? How is that "free"? Are you resistant to the idea of voluntary behavioral changes? Nothing that involves government is voluntary. Government is by definition coercion ("you must") or proscription ("you can't"). That you do not understand this most basic concept explains the inanity of most of your posts. I never said anything about telling anyone to trade in their car immediately. I'm talking about upcoming purchases. And, there is nothing coercive about a president using his TV time to ask people to rethink their habits. Does this qualify? http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/27/business/gas.php |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"D.Duck" wrote in message
... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message ... Meanwhile, asking people to grow up and take responsibility for their actions is free, and will actually work, starting immediately. So you're going to tell a single mom making $8 an hour that they need to trade in their 1983 Electra for a $22,000 Accord? How is that "free"? Are you resistant to the idea of voluntary behavioral changes? Nothing that involves government is voluntary. Government is by definition coercion ("you must") or proscription ("you can't"). That you do not understand this most basic concept explains the inanity of most of your posts. I never said anything about telling anyone to trade in their car immediately. I'm talking about upcoming purchases. And, there is nothing coercive about a president using his TV time to ask people to rethink their habits. Does this qualify? http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/27/business/gas.php It doesn't go far enough, because asking people to pick a different car is venturing into a decision that verges on religion. I can't think of any other product which is so tightly bound to people's egos or crotches than automobiles. Like I said, it would take a real president with balls to touch the subject. The message would be somewhat insulting, but sometimes, people need a bucket of cold water dumped on their heads. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Eisboch" wrote in message . .. Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch The problem with preaching conservation is that the suggested methods usually involve long term solutions. I wonder what would happen if a real president with some balls said the following during one of his TV appearances: "I can fund research until the cows come home, but we might never find solutions which make every type of vehicle more efficient. And, at some point, you have to stop looking for others to find solutions, and volunteer to do the one thing that's inarguably effective. Next time you're ready to buy a car, be honest, and buy based on your real needs. Stop thinking that the only alternative to an SUV is a Ford Focus. Ignore the crap you're being told in the commercials. Is the only reason you bought an SUV that you have a family of 5 and a week's worth of groceries? Wouldn't a van fit your needs equally well? Did you justify the SUV by convincing yourself they were safer, or that you wanted to be able to see over all the other trucks? Did you buy a pickup to haul 3 sheets of plywood just once in the entire time you owned the vehicle? Those aren't reasons. I'm not saying you have to go out and buy a Prius or a Mini-Cooper. But, how about reducing your gas usage by 30%, just by looking at the difference between an SUV and a mini-van? (points to chart with 5 car models shown below) We can't create laws to change your buying habits, and there's nothing I can do about what oil companies charge for fuel. But, you are capable of having a significant impact on how much oil this country uses. If you're not buying a car this year, write to your favorite car manufacturer and tell them what you want to buy when you're ready. If they continue to pile up SUVs at their dealerships, that's their problem, not yours. During WWII, our grandparents planted victory gardens. You can't pick a better car, in order to help this country? Grow up already." Toyota Sequoia SUV: 15/18 mpg Toyota Sienna van: 19/26 mpg Chrysler Town & Country van: 19/26 mpg Ford Crown Victoria: 17/26 mpg Buick Lucerne: 17/28 mpg Very valid and convincing thought, but *grow up, already* would shoot it down. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"Tim" wrote in message
oups.com... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Eisboch" wrote in message . .. Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch The problem with preaching conservation is that the suggested methods usually involve long term solutions. I wonder what would happen if a real president with some balls said the following during one of his TV appearances: "I can fund research until the cows come home, but we might never find solutions which make every type of vehicle more efficient. And, at some point, you have to stop looking for others to find solutions, and volunteer to do the one thing that's inarguably effective. Next time you're ready to buy a car, be honest, and buy based on your real needs. Stop thinking that the only alternative to an SUV is a Ford Focus. Ignore the crap you're being told in the commercials. Is the only reason you bought an SUV that you have a family of 5 and a week's worth of groceries? Wouldn't a van fit your needs equally well? Did you justify the SUV by convincing yourself they were safer, or that you wanted to be able to see over all the other trucks? Did you buy a pickup to haul 3 sheets of plywood just once in the entire time you owned the vehicle? Those aren't reasons. I'm not saying you have to go out and buy a Prius or a Mini-Cooper. But, how about reducing your gas usage by 30%, just by looking at the difference between an SUV and a mini-van? (points to chart with 5 car models shown below) We can't create laws to change your buying habits, and there's nothing I can do about what oil companies charge for fuel. But, you are capable of having a significant impact on how much oil this country uses. If you're not buying a car this year, write to your favorite car manufacturer and tell them what you want to buy when you're ready. If they continue to pile up SUVs at their dealerships, that's their problem, not yours. During WWII, our grandparents planted victory gardens. You can't pick a better car, in order to help this country? Grow up already." Toyota Sequoia SUV: 15/18 mpg Toyota Sienna van: 19/26 mpg Chrysler Town & Country van: 19/26 mpg Ford Crown Victoria: 17/26 mpg Buick Lucerne: 17/28 mpg Very valid and convincing thought, but *grow up, already* would shoot it down. Maybe. But let's face it: It's true. The only way to deny it is to give many consumers a pass by saying they were brainwashed by advertising, which is pretty powerful stuff. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
On Tue, 8 May 2007 12:28:04 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed about fuel prices? It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to the rest of the world. What was or is "artificial" about US gasoline prices compared to the rest of the world? Our prices, absent taxes, have always been about the same as everyone elses as far as I know. The only reason we were paying $1 per gallon while Europe was paying the equivalent of $5 per gallon was the $4 in extra taxes that they were paying - either as direct gasoline/energy taxes or the extra income and VAT tax burden on the refiners and sellers that were reflected into the base fuel prices. Theirs was and is the "artificial" price. Dave hall Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand. Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase in prices. Can't win. Eisboch |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message ... Meanwhile, asking people to grow up and take responsibility for their actions is free, and will actually work, starting immediately. So you're going to tell a single mom making $8 an hour that they need to trade in their 1983 Electra for a $22,000 Accord? How is that "free"? Are you resistant to the idea of voluntary behavioral changes? Nothing that involves government is voluntary. Government is by definition coercion ("you must") or proscription ("you can't"). That you do not understand this most basic concept explains the inanity of most of your posts. I never said anything about telling anyone to trade in their car immediately. I'm talking about upcoming purchases. And, there is nothing coercive about a president using his TV time to ask people to rethink their habits. Does this qualify? http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/27/business/gas.php It doesn't go far enough, because asking people to pick a different car is venturing into a decision that verges on religion. I can't think of any other product which is so tightly bound to people's egos or crotches than automobiles. Like I said, it would take a real president with balls to touch the subject. The message would be somewhat insulting, but sometimes, people need a bucket of cold water dumped on their heads. This is from the above link. Sounds like he did ask us to cut back, not only to buy more efficient vehicles He added that if Americans could avoid going on "a trip that's not essential," that would be "helpful." He also issued a directive for all federal agencies to cut their own energy use and to encourage employees to use public transportation. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"D.Duck" wrote in message
... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message ... Meanwhile, asking people to grow up and take responsibility for their actions is free, and will actually work, starting immediately. So you're going to tell a single mom making $8 an hour that they need to trade in their 1983 Electra for a $22,000 Accord? How is that "free"? Are you resistant to the idea of voluntary behavioral changes? Nothing that involves government is voluntary. Government is by definition coercion ("you must") or proscription ("you can't"). That you do not understand this most basic concept explains the inanity of most of your posts. I never said anything about telling anyone to trade in their car immediately. I'm talking about upcoming purchases. And, there is nothing coercive about a president using his TV time to ask people to rethink their habits. Does this qualify? http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/27/business/gas.php It doesn't go far enough, because asking people to pick a different car is venturing into a decision that verges on religion. I can't think of any other product which is so tightly bound to people's egos or crotches than automobiles. Like I said, it would take a real president with balls to touch the subject. The message would be somewhat insulting, but sometimes, people need a bucket of cold water dumped on their heads. This is from the above link. Sounds like he did ask us to cut back, not only to buy more efficient vehicles He added that if Americans could avoid going on "a trip that's not essential," that would be "helpful." He also issued a directive for all federal agencies to cut their own energy use and to encourage employees to use public transportation. Not far enough. Sorry. I understand I may be insulting one of your icons, but that's just the way it goes. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"D.Duck" wrote in message ... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message ... Meanwhile, asking people to grow up and take responsibility for their actions is free, and will actually work, starting immediately. So you're going to tell a single mom making $8 an hour that they need to trade in their 1983 Electra for a $22,000 Accord? How is that "free"? Are you resistant to the idea of voluntary behavioral changes? Nothing that involves government is voluntary. Government is by definition coercion ("you must") or proscription ("you can't"). That you do not understand this most basic concept explains the inanity of most of your posts. I never said anything about telling anyone to trade in their car immediately. I'm talking about upcoming purchases. And, there is nothing coercive about a president using his TV time to ask people to rethink their habits. Does this qualify? http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/27/business/gas.php Interestingly the Highway Trust Fund is losing $ billions because of more fuel efficient vehicles and folks changing their driving habits. |
The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "D.Duck" wrote in message ... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message ... Meanwhile, asking people to grow up and take responsibility for their actions is free, and will actually work, starting immediately. So you're going to tell a single mom making $8 an hour that they need to trade in their 1983 Electra for a $22,000 Accord? How is that "free"? Are you resistant to the idea of voluntary behavioral changes? Nothing that involves government is voluntary. Government is by definition coercion ("you must") or proscription ("you can't"). That you do not understand this most basic concept explains the inanity of most of your posts. I never said anything about telling anyone to trade in their car immediately. I'm talking about upcoming purchases. And, there is nothing coercive about a president using his TV time to ask people to rethink their habits. Does this qualify? http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/27/business/gas.php It doesn't go far enough, because asking people to pick a different car is venturing into a decision that verges on religion. I can't think of any other product which is so tightly bound to people's egos or crotches than automobiles. Like I said, it would take a real president with balls to touch the subject. The message would be somewhat insulting, but sometimes, people need a bucket of cold water dumped on their heads. This is from the above link. Sounds like he did ask us to cut back, not only to buy more efficient vehicles He added that if Americans could avoid going on "a trip that's not essential," that would be "helpful." He also issued a directive for all federal agencies to cut their own energy use and to encourage employees to use public transportation. Not far enough. Sorry. I understand I may be insulting one of your icons, but that's just the way it goes. He's not one of my icons. I don't agree with many of the things he has and has not done. But you said he should say something....he already has. |
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