I'm thinking about getting a new tandem boat, primarily for playing in
easy whitewater (II-III). My wife and I currently (and will continue)
to paddle our old XL-13's solo, and we have an ancient Blue Hole 17A.
We want something smaller and more responsive, that would be more fun
to play in when we paddle tandem. For those in the mid-Atlantic, I've
paddled up to the lower Yough solo in my primea few years ago, not
recently, not sure will again. We're both comfortable solo boating
the Bloomingon run, have done Lehigh just below White Haven at
moderate dam release levels in our 17 footer. I'm seeking opinions on
two related questions:

1) Would we be better off with something rather tame, like the Legend
15 that Mad River is bringing back, or something like the Vertige X or
the Caption I hear Mad River is bringing back?

2) We both have bad knees, and kneeling all day is really hard on them
(many years ago my orthopaedist suggested I find a new sport). A lot
of our paddling is class II separated by moving water, where sitting
would provide relief. Our old XL-13's have the old Perception saddle,
and we like the seat option, but with it up around gunnel height, it's
too high even for the mildest of rapids or high wind. Assuming we end
up going with a purere whitewater boat, what are your thoughts on:
a) custom pedestal, with back wide enough to sit when desired,
but lower than the old Perception rotomolded seat? Is this feasible?
How hard would it be to do? It's O.K. if the sitting position puts
the weight a bit too far backwards, but need to ensure that when
kneeling the boat is balanced properly. Advantages: solid pedestal
outfitting for whitewater, not having to worry about getting feet
caught under a seat.
b) Even though it's a whitewater playboat, go with mounting
seats, not a pedestal, along with thigh straps. Advantages: obviously
works for sitting, still allows kneeling. Disadvantage: seat goes all
the way across, with feet underneath, probably higher kneel, less boat
control.

The Legend for sure even though it's a much larger boat than the Caption.
IMO the Caption is a play boat and requires constant attention. We had one
for a short period.

In the Legend you'll be able to stretch out those legs, and what I did to
our Dimension, is put a 1x4 behind the pedestal seat for when I needed to
give my knees a break. I've also paddled a Legend set up that way, and
even at gunwale height, on flat water stretches and riffles, works fine. If
you wanted to be creative, mount the board on brackets to lower it and cut
down the back of your pedestal seat. The Caption is too squirrelly to do
that as your center of gravity is now way too high, I tried.....
The Legend will handle class III just fine and is great for tripping too.

Happy Paddling

Carol


wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm thinking about getting a new tandem boat, primarily for playing in
easy whitewater (II-III). My wife and I currently (and will continue)
to paddle our old XL-13's solo, and we have an ancient Blue Hole 17A.
We want something smaller and more responsive, that would be more fun
to play in when we paddle tandem. For those in the mid-Atlantic, I've
paddled up to the lower Yough solo in my primea few years ago, not
recently, not sure will again. We're both comfortable solo boating
the Bloomingon run, have done Lehigh just below White Haven at
moderate dam release levels in our 17 footer. I'm seeking opinions on
two related questions:

1) Would we be better off with something rather tame, like the Legend
15 that Mad River is bringing back, or something like the Vertige X or
the Caption I hear Mad River is bringing back?

2) We both have bad knees, and kneeling all day is really hard on them
(many years ago my orthopaedist suggested I find a new sport). A lot
of our paddling is class II separated by moving water, where sitting
would provide relief. Our old XL-13's have the old Perception saddle,
and we like the seat option, but with it up around gunnel height, it's
too high even for the mildest of rapids or high wind. Assuming we end
up going with a purere whitewater boat, what are your thoughts on:
a) custom pedestal, with back wide enough to sit when desired,
but lower than the old Perception rotomolded seat? Is this feasible?
How hard would it be to do? It's O.K. if the sitting position puts
the weight a bit too far backwards, but need to ensure that when
kneeling the boat is balanced properly. Advantages: solid pedestal
outfitting for whitewater, not having to worry about getting feet
caught under a seat.
b) Even though it's a whitewater playboat, go with mounting
seats, not a pedestal, along with thigh straps. Advantages: obviously
works for sitting, still allows kneeling. Disadvantage: seat goes all
the way across, with feet underneath, probably higher kneel, less boat
control.

On May 4, 4:48 am, "krueger" wrote:
[...]
The Legend will handle class III just fine and is great for tripping too.

The Legend great for tripping?
On rivers, yes it will do fine for tripping,
although the 15' is quite small for that, you really have to go
lightweight then.
So I would not call it "great for tripping too".

Dirk Barends

Last summer did a 6 day 5 night self contained trip on the Smith in Montana
in a Legend, but I will admit it was with 4 other tandem canoes, 11 people &
one yellow lab. We weren't lacking for room, and even brought the kitchen
table. So maybe I misused the word "tripping", what term should I have
used?

Carol

wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 4, 4:48 am, "krueger" wrote:
[...]
The Legend will handle class III just fine and is great for tripping too.

The Legend great for tripping?
On rivers, yes it will do fine for tripping,
although the 15' is quite small for that, you really have to go
lightweight then.
So I would not call it "great for tripping too".

Dirk Barends

On May 5, 10:02 am, "krueger" wrote:
Last summer did a 6 day 5 night self contained trip on the Smith in Montana
in a Legend, but I will admit it was with 4 other tandem canoes, 11 people &
one yellow lab. We weren't lacking for room, and even brought the kitchen
table. So maybe I misused the word "tripping", what term should I have
used?

Carol


11 people and a yellow lab in 5 canoes, including a
Legend...backpacking out of a canoe? Four in the back, Four in the
front, one in the glovebox?

Did you carry all your own gear, plus your share of the kitchen/group
gear? I'm impressed...I have a BlueHole 17A, a MR Explorer 15 and a MR
Legend, and at 15' I find the legend too small to run loaded through
anything but the most forgiving class 1-2. For extended tripping, I
would not want a cooler, kitchen box, roll-a-table, chairs, fishing
gear, camping gear and personal duffel in there with me.

--riverman

On May 5, 4:02 am, "krueger" wrote:
Last summer did a 6 day 5 night self contained trip on the Smith in Montana
in a Legend, but I will admit it was with 4 other tandem canoes, 11 people &
one yellow lab. We weren't lacking for room, and even brought the kitchen
table. So maybe I misused the word "tripping", what term should I have
used?

Carol

Carol,
it is not the use of the word "tripping", but the word "great" that I
could not agree with,
even though I have made many great trips with my (Dagger) Legend.

Dirk

Riverman,


Let's see, in the Legend, we carried two bills bags, therma-rests, 2 roll
chairs, tent, tarp, dry bag with rain gear, York box, personal day bags, and
all of this on top of the raft table. When we did this trip 10 years ago,
it was minus the table and all packed into one Dagger Dimension. So
comparatively speaking, we had lots of room.

One thing that's nice about this particular river, is that we didn't have to
take Scat Packers , as each campsite had pit toilets. That makes a big
difference.

If I remember correctly, we had of two ice chests, two other gear boxes, 15
gallons of water, gravity water filter, and small Action Packer as
additional community gear.

I will agree with you though, that I would not have wanted to do class 3
rivers loaded like this. The Smith River has class 2 drop on the last day,
otherwise, it's pretty much a float.

If you're curious, check out: WWW.rapids2.myphotoalbum.com

Scroll down to the folder that says, 6 RPC Outings, then click on sub album:
Smith River, Montana. I also added two pictures from the 1996 trip showing
the loaded Dimension's.

Carol


"riverman" wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 5, 10:02 am, "krueger" wrote:
Last summer did a 6 day 5 night self contained trip on the Smith in
Montana
in a Legend, but I will admit it was with 4 other tandem canoes, 11
people &
one yellow lab. We weren't lacking for room, and even brought the
kitchen
table. So maybe I misused the word "tripping", what term should I have
used?

Carol


11 people and a yellow lab in 5 canoes, including a
Legend...backpacking out of a canoe? Four in the back, Four in the
front, one in the glovebox?

Did you carry all your own gear, plus your share of the kitchen/group
gear? I'm impressed...I have a BlueHole 17A, a MR Explorer 15 and a MR
Legend, and at 15' I find the legend too small to run loaded through
anything but the most forgiving class 1-2. For extended tripping, I
would not want a cooler, kitchen box, roll-a-table, chairs, fishing
gear, camping gear and personal duffel in there with me.

--riverman

On May 6, 4:18 am, "krueger" wrote:
"riverman" wrote:
On May 5, 10:02 am, "krueger" wrote:
Last summer did a 6 day 5 night self contained trip on the Smith in
Montana
in a Legend, but I will admit it was with 4 other tandem canoes, 11
people &
one yellow lab. We weren't lacking for room, and even brought the
kitchen
table. So maybe I misused the word "tripping", what term should I have
used?

Carol

11 people and a yellow lab in 5 canoes, including a
Legend...backpacking out of a canoe? Four in the back, Four in the
front, one in the glovebox?

Did you carry all your own gear, plus your share of the kitchen/group
gear? I'm impressed...I have a BlueHole 17A, a MR Explorer 15 and a MR
Legend, and at 15' I find the legend too small to run loaded through
anything but the most forgiving class 1-2. For extended tripping, I
would not want a cooler, kitchen box, roll-a-table, chairs, fishing
gear, camping gear and personal duffel in there with me.

--riverman-
Riverman,

Let's see, in the Legend, we carried two bills bags, therma-rests, 2 roll
chairs, tent, tarp, dry bag with rain gear, York box, personal day bags, and
all of this on top of the raft table. When we did this trip 10 years ago,
it was minus the table and all packed into one Dagger Dimension. So
comparatively speaking, we had lots of room.

One thing that's nice about this particular river, is that we didn't have to
take Scat Packers , as each campsite had pit toilets. That makes a big
difference.

If I remember correctly, we had of two ice chests, two other gear boxes, 15
gallons of water, gravity water filter, and small Action Packer as
additional community gear.

I will agree with you though, that I would not have wanted to do class 3
rivers loaded like this. The Smith River has class 2 drop on the last day,
otherwise, it's pretty much a float.

If you're curious, check out: WWW.rapids2.myphotoalbum.com

Scroll down to the folder that says, 6 RPC Outings, then click on sub album:
Smith River, Montana. I also added two pictures from the 1996 trip showing
the loaded Dimension's.

Carol


Hi Carol:
Oops, my bad. I don't own a Legend (and since MR is now manufacturing
them, I guess I see why that slipped through). I have a BH 17A, an
Explorer 16, and a MR Courier (which is essentially a 14.5 foot
Explorer). I just bought it at the start of last summer from another
RBPer (Fred Klingener) and have only paddled it a few times before
storing it in Maine at a friend's farm.

Anyway, although its now way off topic, you can see the boat in this
picture with Fred and his dog in it, and you can see why I'd be amazed
that two people plus gear could even consider paddling it tandem.
http://tinyurl.com/2v9vjx Nonetheless, there was a raging debate on
http://tinyurl.com/2otdny about just that.

Nonetheless, the pics of your Smith trip look great, but I gotta
admit; some of those loads look pretty sky-high. I prefer to keep my
load below the rails, or at most, only a few inches above. Sidewinds,
and all.

--riverman

(BTW, not to be a netnanny, but top-posting is usually frowned upon)