"John H." wrote in message
...
Provided without comment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Wr1hcIp2U
--
***** Hope your day is better than decent! *****

John H

.....and you also still believe that cigarettes don't cause cancer?
Even if the CO2 emmissions aren't warming up the earth, they sure are
poisoining the environment.
We know...a lot of the garbage spewed south of the border makes it's way up
here and dumps on us.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...-petition.html

Don White wrote:
"John H." wrote in message
...
Provided without comment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Wr1hcIp2U
--
***** Hope your day is better than decent! *****

John H

....and you also still believe that cigarettes don't cause cancer?
Even if the CO2 emmissions aren't warming up the earth, they sure are
poisoining the environment.
We know...a lot of the garbage spewed south of the border makes it's way up
here and dumps on us.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...-petition.html



Global warming doesn't fit into Herring's Republican twit mindset.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:
"John H." wrote in message
...
Provided without comment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Wr1hcIp2U
--
***** Hope your day is better than decent! *****

John H

....and you also still believe that cigarettes don't cause cancer?
Even if the CO2 emmissions aren't warming up the earth, they sure are
poisoining the environment.
We know...a lot of the garbage spewed south of the border makes it's way
up here and dumps on us.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...-petition.html



Global warming doesn't fit into Herring's Republican twit mindset.

Harry, calling carbon dioxide a poison as the supreme court just did is
silly, all animal life exhales carbon dioxide and ammonia and water vapor
(another greenhouse gas that's 20 times as effective as carbon dioxide as a
greenhouse gas).

I'm royally ****ed at the ignorance and silliness of you and others on this
issue. To call anyone with a realistic mindset based on SCIENCE a twit
points out your bias and lack of education.

In the recently heard supreme court case Mass. would benefit from a 5 degree
temp rise by 2100. They have not shown, to my knowledge, any loss or
potential loss from current EPA policies. I thought from the little I know
about the legal system that was a necessity for any legal case, you have to
show damages. If I am correct we just had the legal system make a political
decision, guess who voted for it.........Expect this to be overturned within
5 years.

Florida and Texas MIGHT have a case in that insect life won't get a die off
each year as temps don't reach freezing long enough.

The other STUFF that usually accompanies carbon dioxide out of power plant
smoke stacks is already being addressed. If you want stricter regulations
go for it.

If Clinton had not made the low sulfur coal in Utah off limits (he made it a
national park) then we could economically switch to that coal and at the
same time reduce emissions with tighter standards. As it is, this won't
happen because the anti carbon dioxide lobby will block it. So you in the
north above the US industrial belt get acid rain and yellow air to breathe.
I hope you like our political system. I think it stinks. no pun intended

Jeff Rigby wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:
"John H." wrote in message
...
Provided without comment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Wr1hcIp2U
--
***** Hope your day is better than decent! *****

John H
....and you also still believe that cigarettes don't cause cancer?
Even if the CO2 emmissions aren't warming up the earth, they sure are
poisoining the environment.
We know...a lot of the garbage spewed south of the border makes it's way
up here and dumps on us.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...-petition.html


Global warming doesn't fit into Herring's Republican twit mindset.

Harry, calling carbon dioxide a poison as the supreme court just did is
silly, all animal life exhales carbon dioxide and ammonia and water vapor
(another greenhouse gas that's 20 times as effective as carbon dioxide as a
greenhouse gas).

I'm royally ****ed at the ignorance and silliness of you and others on this
issue.


I'm sorry, but I'm really not interested in reading any more
anti-science Republican screeds. Save it for the believers in the
awakening of Terry Schiavo.

Harry Krause wrote:
Jeff Rigby wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:
"John H." wrote in message
...
Provided without comment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Wr1hcIp2U
--
***** Hope your day is better than decent! *****

John H
....and you also still believe that cigarettes don't cause cancer?
Even if the CO2 emmissions aren't warming up the earth, they sure
are poisoining the environment.
We know...a lot of the garbage spewed south of the border makes it's
way up here and dumps on us.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...-petition.html



Global warming doesn't fit into Herring's Republican twit mindset.

Harry, calling carbon dioxide a poison as the supreme court just did
is silly, all animal life exhales carbon dioxide and ammonia and water
vapor (another greenhouse gas that's 20 times as effective as carbon
dioxide as a greenhouse gas).

I'm royally ****ed at the ignorance and silliness of you and others on
this issue.


I'm sorry, but I'm really not interested in reading any more
anti-science Republican screeds. Save it for the believers in the
awakening of Terry Schiavo.

We can see that you are not interested in discussion just political points.

BAR wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Jeff Rigby wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Don White wrote:

"John H." wrote in message
...

Provided without comment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Wr1hcIp2U
--
***** Hope your day is better than decent! *****

John H

....and you also still believe that cigarettes don't cause cancer?
Even if the CO2 emmissions aren't warming up the earth, they sure
are poisoining the environment.
We know...a lot of the garbage spewed south of the border makes
it's way up here and dumps on us.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...-petition.html



Global warming doesn't fit into Herring's Republican twit mindset.


Harry, calling carbon dioxide a poison as the supreme court just did
is silly, all animal life exhales carbon dioxide and ammonia and
water vapor (another greenhouse gas that's 20 times as effective as
carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas).

I'm royally ****ed at the ignorance and silliness of you and others
on this issue.



I'm sorry, but I'm really not interested in reading any more
anti-science Republican screeds. Save it for the believers in the
awakening of Terry Schiavo.


We can see that you are not interested in discussion just political points.

THis fits "global warming to a tee.

Identifying pseudoscience http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

A field, practice, or body of knowledge might reasonably be called
pseudoscientific when (1) it is presented as consistent with the
accepted norms of scientific research; but (2) it demonstrably fails to
meet these norms, most importantly, in misuse of scientific method.[18]

The following have been proposed to be indicators of poor scientific
reasoning.

Use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims

* Assertion of scientific claims that are vague rather than
precise, and that lack specific measurements.[19]
* Failure to make use of operational definitions. (i.e. a
scientific description of the operational means in which a range of
numeric measurements can be obtained).[20]
* Failure to make reasonable use of the principle of parsimony,
i.e. failing to seek an explanation that requires the fewest possible
additional assumptions when multiple viable explanations are possible
(see: Occam's Razor)[21]
* Use of obscurantist language, and misuse of apparently technical
jargon in an effort to give claims the superficial trappings of science.
* Lack of boundary conditions: Most well-supported scientific
theories possess boundary conditions (well articulated limitations)
under which the predicted phenomena do and do not apply.[22]

Over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation

* Assertion of scientific claims that cannot be falsified in the
event they are incorrect, inaccurate, or irrelevant (see also:
falsifiability)[23]
* Assertion of claims that a theory predicts something that it has
not been shown to predict[24]
* Assertion that claims which have not been proven false must be
true, and vice versa (see: Argument from ignorance)[25]
* Over-reliance on testimonials and anecdotes. Testimonial and
anecdotal evidence can be useful for discovery (i.e. hypothesis
generation) but should not be used in the context of justification (i.e.
hypothesis testing).[26]
* Selective use of experimental evidence: presentation of data that
seems to support its own claims while suppressing or refusing to
consider data that conflict with its claims.[27]
* Reversed burden of proof. In science, the burden of proof rests
on the individual making a claim, not on the critic. "Pseudoscientific"
arguments may neglect this principle and demand that skeptics
demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that a claim (e.g. an assertion
regarding the efficacy of a novel therapeutic technique) is false. It is
essentially impossible to prove a universal negative, so this tactic
incorrectly places the burden of proof on the skeptic rather than the
claimant.[28]
* Appeals to holism: Proponents of pseudoscientific claims,
especially in organic medicine, alternative medicine, naturopathy and
mental health, often resort to the “mantra of holism” to explain
negative findings.[29]

Lack of openness to testing by other experts

* Evasion of peer review before publicizing results (called
"science by press conference").[30] Some proponents of theories that
contradict accepted scientific theories avoid subjecting their work to
the often ego-bruising process of peer review, sometimes on the grounds
that peer review is inherently biased against claims that contradict
established paradigms, and sometimes on the grounds that assertions
cannot be evaluated adequately using standard scientific methods. By
remaining insulated from the peer review process, these proponents
forego the opportunity of corrective feedback from informed colleagues.[31]
* Failure to provide adequate information for other researchers to
reproduce the claimed results.[32]
* Assertion of claims of secrecy or proprietary knowledge in
response to requests for review of data or methodology.[33]

Lack of progress

* Failure to progress towards additional evidence of its
claims.[34] Terrence Hines has identified astrology as a subject that
has changed very little in the past two millennia.[35]
* Lack of self correction: scientific research programmes make
mistakes, but they tend to eliminate these errors over time.[36] By
contrast, theories may be accused of being pseudoscientific because they
have remained unaltered despite contradictory evidence.[37]

Personalization of issues

* Tight social groups and granfalloons. Authoritarian personality,
suppression of dissent, and groupthink can enhance the adoption of
beliefs that have no rational basis. In attempting to confirm their
(confirmation bias), the group tends to identify their critics as
enemies.[38]
* Assertion of claims of a conspiracy on the part of the scientific
community to suppress the results.[39]
* Attacking the motives or character of anyone who questions the
claims (see Ad hominem fallacy).[38]

On Apr 3, 6:45�pm, Animal05 wrote:


Personalization of issues

* * ** Tight social groups and granfalloons. Authoritarian personality,
suppression of dissent, and groupthink can enhance the adoption of
beliefs that have no rational basis. In attempting to confirm their
(confirmation bias), the group tends to identify their critics as
enemies.[38]
* * ** Assertion of claims of a conspiracy on the part of the scientific
community to suppress the results.[39]
* * ** Attacking the motives or character of anyone who questions the
claims (see Ad hominem fallacy).[38]- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hmmm. Who has "personalized" global warming any more than the group
who
insists either that it isn't happening or that a polluted atmosphere
is not scientifically different from a pristine atmosphere? Every
other statement from that group seems to begin "Al Gore wants us to
believe....." or "Liberals all want us to believe....." If
personalization of the issue means that the argument is bogus (and I
tend to agree that those without anything intelligent to say go
straight to personalities every time), the folks living in GWB land -
as in Global Warming is Bogus- have been far more guilty of that than
the global warming believers.

The global warming believers think the phenomenon is the problem,
while the GWB- (Global Warming is Bogus)- faction more often seem to
think that the folks with an opposing opinion are actually the
problem.

This should never have been made into a political issue. The right
wing's hatred for Al Gore has caused a lot of people to turn a blind
eye and deaf ear to global warming, when in fact we should *all* be
considering the entire body of evidence. As it is, it's almost like an
election; dueling versions of the truth, and you get to choose which
version you want to fight for. Too bad.

As boaters we need to be nervous, indeed very nervous, about possible
political and legislative fallout from the global warming concerns. As
far as the 90% of the public who *don't* own a motorized boat are
concerned, those "rich" guys in their 24-foot yachts are a low
priority use of fossil fuel.
We can get dumped on by the politicians, eager to show that they are
doing something about the situation, and we're a perfect target
because we don't have enough votes to make a difference. :-(

However, just because it might be bad news for boaters, auto
manufacturers, smoke stack industrialists, etc etc etc doesn't mean
that we should categorically deny that a problem exists.......unless
it can be conclusively shown (and it has not) that a problem really
doesn't. Wishing and hoping won't make it go away.

It's way too early in the debate to draw final conclusions, but "We
hate the left wing in general and Al Gore in particular so therefore
we think gobal warming has to be a pinko conspiracy", is *not*
scientific reasoning. Until the GWB (Global Warming is Bogus) faction
stops making this scientific question into a personal or political
issue at every opportunity, criticism of the scientific methods used
or not used by the folks who think that climate change is a problem is
somewhat hypocritical.

If you boat, fly a plane, drive an RV, etc- this issue could screw up
your hobby in a major way.

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:54:47 -0400, BAR wrote:

We can see that you are not interested in discussion just political points

Did you see the article about the EU banning outdoor barbecues because
they emit CO2? Apparently, it's going to be a 20 Euro permit for
every BBQ session.

---------

BRUSSELS, April 3 (RIA Novosti) - The government of Belgium's
French-speaking region of Wallonia, which has a population of about 4
million, has approved a tax on barbequing, local media reported.

Experts said that between 50 and 100 grams of CO2, a so-called
greenhouse gas, is emitted during barbequing. Beginning June 2007,
residents of Wallonia will have to pay 20 euros for a grilling
session.

The local authorities plan to monitor compliance with the new tax
legislation from helicopters, whose thermal sensors will detect
burning grills.

Scientists believe CO2 emissions are a major cause of global warming.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070403/62999935.html

-------------

The best part is that they are going to use helicopters to patrol
neighborhoods for illegal barbecues.

Let's see - 100 grams per BBQ for - what, hour and a half maybe versus
a helicopter which emits a kilogram or so of CO2 per minute?

It's not science or economics - it's religion, pure and simple.

Worshipping at the altar of Global Warming.

Hehe, that's great... now they'll start grilling indoors (to evade the bbq
police) and die from CO poisoning. Let's see how this beautiful piece of
legislation pans out... film at 11.

--Mike

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:54:47 -0400, BAR wrote:

We can see that you are not interested in discussion just political points

Did you see the article about the EU banning outdoor barbecues because
they emit CO2? Apparently, it's going to be a 20 Euro permit for
every BBQ session.

---------

BRUSSELS, April 3 (RIA Novosti) - The government of Belgium's
French-speaking region of Wallonia, which has a population of about 4
million, has approved a tax on barbequing, local media reported.

Experts said that between 50 and 100 grams of CO2, a so-called
greenhouse gas, is emitted during barbequing. Beginning June 2007,
residents of Wallonia will have to pay 20 euros for a grilling
session.

The local authorities plan to monitor compliance with the new tax
legislation from helicopters, whose thermal sensors will detect
burning grills.

Scientists believe CO2 emissions are a major cause of global warming.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070403/62999935.html

-------------

The best part is that they are going to use helicopters to patrol
neighborhoods for illegal barbecues.

Let's see - 100 grams per BBQ for - what, hour and a half maybe versus
a helicopter which emits a kilogram or so of CO2 per minute?

It's not science or economics - it's religion, pure and simple.

Worshipping at the altar of Global Warming.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:54:47 -0400, BAR wrote:

We can see that you are not interested in discussion just political points

Did you see the article about the EU banning outdoor barbecues because
they emit CO2? Apparently, it's going to be a 20 Euro permit for
every BBQ session.

It if is bad then it should be banned and not regulbated and taxed.

---------

BRUSSELS, April 3 (RIA Novosti) - The government of Belgium's
French-speaking region of Wallonia, which has a population of about 4
million, has approved a tax on barbequing, local media reported.

Experts said that between 50 and 100 grams of CO2, a so-called
greenhouse gas, is emitted during barbequing. Beginning June 2007,
residents of Wallonia will have to pay 20 euros for a grilling
session.

The local authorities plan to monitor compliance with the new tax
legislation from helicopters, whose thermal sensors will detect
burning grills.

Scientists believe CO2 emissions are a major cause of global warming.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070403/62999935.html

-------------

The best part is that they are going to use helicopters to patrol
neighborhoods for illegal barbecues.

Let's see - 100 grams per BBQ for - what, hour and a half maybe versus
a helicopter which emits a kilogram or so of CO2 per minute?

Just another excuse to control people's behavior. You would think they
could have a guy riding a bicycle through the neighborhoods on Saturday
afternoon using his nose to ferret out those evil BBQ grills.



It's not science or economics - it's religion, pure and simple.

Worshipping at the altar of Global Warming.

Bingo!