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The Joys of Boating
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The Joys of Boating
As I do extensive reading in trying to select what boat will suit me
best, I realize just how much fun boating is. And I haven't even left the basement! Right now I'm leaning toward the MacGregor 26M. Might be new, might be used. It's usually called a "motor sailor" It's a high volume boat, inexpensive, and generally frowned upon by the "high speed" sailing crowd. When under sail it doesn't perform as well as dedicated sailboats, though no single keel sailboat of similar size is exactly a speed demon. Some of the Mac's sailing performance deficit is inherent in its dual purpose design, and some appears to be because those who buy this Mac are not hard core sailors, and don't lend much effort to getting the most of its sailing capabilities. Everybody has different preferences in what they want from a boat, and I'm laying out some of mine here. They might change when I get more experience, and they are in the end a balancing act, as always. -- Sailing area. The boat will be used exclusively to cruise the west coast of Florida, from the panhandle to the Keys. -- Purpose. Slow cruising and fishing. Hook swinging in shallow, sheltered areas, exploring islands. Shallow draft (+-18") is essential for this, and I won't bend here. I don't dinghy. Had enough dinghying/whaleboating when I was in the navy. On the fishing side it looks like the Mac cockpit is small, and freeboard all around is high, so it's sure not the best fishing platform, but I could fish off a jetski, so it's not a deal killer. Cruising might be a month out from home port, and I'll cover that under other categories. Might get some subjects confused in a category, but I'll do my best to keep organized. -- Economy. My purchase/equip budget is @30k. But that's if ongoing costs aren't going to eat me up. The Mac is trailerable, so when not in use it can be stored at relatively low cost. Despite its detractors, the Mac can move under sail from one place to another. It might be tender, it might not point well, etc, etc. No fuel used under sail. Under power at less than hull speed, I believe the boat is a fuel miser compared to similar sized power boats and heavier but similar sized sailboats. When wind on the freeboard affects that economy, there's probably wind to sail instead. On the economy related new/used issue, I'll make my points under the construction topic. --Livability. I just don't have the experience here, from what I've read the Mac is as comfortable as any 26. Since I've tented for weeks at a time, I don't see a problem with it. I'm not going to be living on the boat. Me and the wife on 2-6 week cruises, and we are not tall, and not fat. --Construction. I've seen many "better" sailboats recommended by the "real" sailors to those considering the Mac 26M. This in order to get a "real" used sailboat for the price of a new Mac. When I started looking at some of the recommendations I found most are boats 20-40 years old. There might be a problem even getting insurance on these. Besides, who wants a decrepit (insert pet sailboat here), mildew-stinking, stringer rotting, engine-dying, sail-rotting, barnicle-embedded, crap-in-the-bilge old ill-maintained boat when you can get a new Mac? Some of these sailors bragging about how well their cachet-name sailboat is maintained probably don't do anything but shine brightwork, and leave Brasso swirls when doing that. Besides that, some of these boats are floating supported by 1/8" of glass over 1/4" of chopper-gun crud over a layer of poorly wetted cloth. From what I've read the production process used in building the Mac has more QC than most boat builders use. I still don't know enough about that and other construction details to buy one, but I can find out, even if I have to visit the plant. No teak, plenty of minor fit/finish complaints, light hardware, etc. A solid boat suitable for my purposes, or so it seems. Anyway, even an experienced surveyor can't always find the real quality of a boat. Somebody recommended the Parker-Dawson 26 over the Mac and when I looked for info I found owners discovering deck cleats had not even large washers as backing. One came adrift because of this and he lost the boat on the rocks. http://www.parkerdawson.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=288 Now I'm not knocking this boat, just saying even a new boat must be gone over with a fine toothed comb, and an old boat may have well concealed problems that won't be found without taking it apart If they weren't questionable due to age, I'd much prefer a Dawson over a Mac. Of course they were 40k new in 1983, and cross oceans. Some people are willing to buy an old boat and spend a lot of time bringing it up to snuff. Not only do I not have the time or inclination, I get irritable when pulling off half-assed or unsuitable mods. So besides the issue of how a boat has been maintained and whether initial construction is going to bite you, there is the "clean slate" factor in making modifications. This is possible even with a used recent Mac 26, because they aren't normally used as liveaboards and probably not much as overnighters. From perusing the Mac site I see some have added air, gensets, dodgers, extra fresh water, etc. The cabin is an open design from the factory with minimal cabinetry. When first looking at sailers, I tended toward a small diesel for economy when motoring. But now I think the lost interior space and maintenance/cost issues of the diesel in a 26' boat make me lean in favor of a small 4-stroke on the transom. Just as most sailboaters recommend against the Mac 26M, the owners of the Mac 26M generally recommend max HP OB. I'm not buying that either, since I won't be pulling tubes or skis as many of them do, or be in a hurry as many of them are. I'll be looking for my balance between sailing and powering in terms of OB weight. Depending on tradeoffs, I'm not even sure I would get the boat on plane, which is one of its hull-type selling points. I had originally thought along the lines of a 24' Carolina Skiff for mostly short fishing trips, maybe some hook swinging under a popup which some CS owners do. The CS is another economical, shallow draft and highly modifiable boat. But on a price/versatily basis the Mac has the CS beat - for me. Anyway, I'm still learning and all ears for any comments. But please don't make my ears turn red. OTOH, since I'm an old navy guy, that might be impossible. --Vic .. |
The Joys of Boating
On Mar 24, 2:15 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Vic Smith" my brain wrote in messagenews:3qta03hvvu4h42k6s9tndks71gfi69aio8@4ax .com... big snip to remove thinly-disguised and transparant advert for MacGregor junk But please don't make my ears turn red. OTOH, since I'm an old navy guy, that might be impossible. --Vic An old navy guy? Sure you are, Vic. I bet Nathan Branden is your best friend. Wilbur Hubbard Was Nathaniel Branden in the Navy? |
The Joys of Boating
snip might be impossible.
--Vic . Well this one I have a little bit of experiance with; used boat = rip every stitch of wire out of the boat and re run it all. In my experiance the problems i have had on most boats have been with wireing and standing rigging. standing rig i usually have enough stuff to fix it on hand. but a short or a loose wire in the bilge etc can cause things to go gunnybags at the wrong time. most of the electrical is coverd up so you cannot see what is wired correctly and what is not . 2MT |
The Joys of Boating
On 24 Mar 2007 13:24:03 -0700, "Tim" wrote:
On Mar 24, 2:15 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "Vic Smith" my brain wrote in messagenews:3qta03hvvu4h42k6s9tndks71gfi69aio8@4ax .com... big snip to remove thinly-disguised and transparant advert for MacGregor junk But please don't make my ears turn red. OTOH, since I'm an old navy guy, that might be impossible. --Vic An old navy guy? Sure you are, Vic. I bet Nathan Branden is your best friend. Wilbur Hubbard Was Nathaniel Branden in the Navy? No. He was a Canadian psychologist who along with Ayn Rand defined Objectivism - basically the precursor of Libertarianism. Was a member of a group called "The Collective" which had some interesting members including Alan Greenspan. Which explains the gooble de gook Greenspan used during his Congressional testimony. Want to give yourself a headache? Parse the following: "The issue of concepts (known as "the problem of universals") is philosophy's central issue. Since man's knowledge is gained and held in conceptual form, the validity of man's knowledge depends upon the validity of concepts. But concepts are abstractions or universals, and everything that man perceives is particular, concrete. What is the relationship between abstractions and concretes? To what precisely do concepts refer in reality? Do they refer to something real, something that exist - or are they merely inventions of man's mind, arbitrary constructs or loose approximations that can not claim to represent knowledge?" I'll wait. :) |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:32:11 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: --Livability. I just don't have the experience here, from what I've read the Mac is as comfortable as any 26. Since I've tented for weeks at a time, I don't see a problem with it. I'm not going to be living on the boat. Me and the wife on 2-6 week cruises, and we are not tall, and not fat. With all due respect, that boat will get very small for two people after a few days of cruising. I appreciate what you are trying to do but I hate to see you spend money on a boat that neither sails, motors or cruises very well. See if you can rent one for a week before you buy. In the long run I think you'd be happier with something like a RF246 with a 4 stroke outboard on it. http://www.rosboroughboats.com/ Try to find a good used one. .. |
The Joys of Boating
On Mar 24, 3:39 pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
Want to give yourself a headache? Parse the following: "The issue of concepts (known as "the problem of universals") is philosophy's central issue. Since man's knowledge is gained and held in conceptual form, the validity of man's knowledge depends upon the validity of concepts. But concepts are abstractions or universals, and everything that man perceives is particular, concrete. What is the relationship between abstractions and concretes? To what precisely do concepts refer in reality? Do they refer to something real, something that exist - or are they merely inventions of man's mind, arbitrary constructs or loose approximations that can not claim to represent knowledge?" I'll wait. I need some microdot for that one..... That would confuse Timothy Learey |
The Joys of Boating
Vic Smith wrote:
On 24 Mar 2007 13:24:03 -0700, "Tim" wrote: On Mar 24, 2:15 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "Vic Smith" my brain wrote in messagenews:3qta03hvvu4h42k6s9tndks71gfi69aio8@4ax .com... big snip to remove thinly-disguised and transparant advert for MacGregor junk But please don't make my ears turn red. OTOH, since I'm an old navy guy, that might be impossible. --Vic An old navy guy? Sure you are, Vic. I bet Nathan Branden is your best friend. Wilbur Hubbard Was Nathaniel Branden in the Navy? I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand, originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it. |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:39:35 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote: On 24 Mar 2007 13:24:03 -0700, "Tim" wrote: On Mar 24, 2:15 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "Vic Smith" my brain wrote in messagenews:3qta03hvvu4h42k6s9tndks71gfi69aio8@4ax .com... big snip to remove thinly-disguised and transparant advert for MacGregor junk But please don't make my ears turn red. OTOH, since I'm an old navy guy, that might be impossible. --Vic An old navy guy? Sure you are, Vic. I bet Nathan Branden is your best friend. Wilbur Hubbard Was Nathaniel Branden in the Navy? No. He was a Canadian psychologist who along with Ayn Rand defined Objectivism - basically the precursor of Libertarianism. Was a member of a group called "The Collective" which had some interesting members including Alan Greenspan. Which explains the gooble de gook Greenspan used during his Congressional testimony. Want to give yourself a headache? Parse the following: "The issue of concepts (known as "the problem of universals") is philosophy's central issue. Since man's knowledge is gained and held in conceptual form, the validity of man's knowledge depends upon the validity of concepts. But concepts are abstractions or universals, and everything that man perceives is particular, concrete. What is the relationship between abstractions and concretes? To what precisely do concepts refer in reality? Do they refer to something real, something that exist - or are they merely inventions of man's mind, arbitrary constructs or loose approximations that can not claim to represent knowledge?" I'll wait. :) Both. -- ***** Hope your day is better than decent! ***** John H |
The Joys of Boating
On 24 Mar 2007 13:30:00 -0700, "Two meter troll"
wrote: Well this one I have a little bit of experiance with; used boat = rip every stitch of wire out of the boat and re run it all. In my experiance the problems i have had on most boats have been with wireing and standing rigging. standing rig i usually have enough stuff to fix it on hand. but a short or a loose wire in the bilge etc can cause things to go gunnybags at the wrong time. most of the electrical is coverd up so you cannot see what is wired correctly and what is not . Rewiring an old boat first off would be my inclination too. 20-40 year-old wire, and 20-40 years of hatchet jobs done to the wiring by "sailors." No thanks! . Even on a new Mac 26M first thing you do if you intend electrical additions is toss the stock electric panel and get a beefier one that fits your needs. --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
On 24 Mar 2007 13:24:03 -0700, "Tim" wrote:
On Mar 24, 2:15 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "Vic Smith" my brain wrote in messagenews:3qta03hvvu4h42k6s9tndks71gfi69aio8@4ax .com... big snip to remove thinly-disguised and transparant advert for MacGregor junk But please don't make my ears turn red. OTOH, since I'm an old navy guy, that might be impossible. --Vic An old navy guy? Sure you are, Vic. I bet Nathan Branden is your best friend. Wilbur Hubbard Was Nathaniel Branden in the Navy? I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:44:46 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: Although I'm not young, I'm still in pretty good shape, and do like the idea of sailing, having crewed some. Sure, sailing is great fun but it is difficult to get a boat that sails well and cruises well, and still meets your shallow draft requirement. You might want to get an inexpensive day sailor just as a fun boat. There are lots to choose from, but one of my choices would be a Flying Scot. http://www.flyingscot.com/ They are good boats that sail very well and meet your specs with the exception of cruising. You can beach them and go tent camping of course. I'm guessing you could pick up a good used one with trailer for less than $5K. |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:02:36 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:32:11 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: --Livability. I just don't have the experience here, from what I've read the Mac is as comfortable as any 26. Since I've tented for weeks at a time, I don't see a problem with it. I'm not going to be living on the boat. Me and the wife on 2-6 week cruises, and we are not tall, and not fat. With all due respect, that boat will get very small for two people after a few days of cruising. I appreciate what you are trying to do but I hate to see you spend money on a boat that neither sails, motors or cruises very well. See if you can rent one for a week before you buy. In the long run I think you'd be happier with something like a RF246 with a 4 stroke outboard on it. http://www.rosboroughboats.com/ Try to find a good used one. That is a nice looking boat. Any idea what they cost new? -- ***** Hope your day is better than decent! ***** John H |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:02:36 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:32:11 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: --Livability. I just don't have the experience here, from what I've read the Mac is as comfortable as any 26. Since I've tented for weeks at a time, I don't see a problem with it. I'm not going to be living on the boat. Me and the wife on 2-6 week cruises, and we are not tall, and not fat. With all due respect, that boat will get very small for two people after a few days of cruising. I appreciate what you are trying to do but I hate to see you spend money on a boat that neither sails, motors or cruises very well. See if you can rent one for a week before you buy. In the long run I think you'd be happier with something like a RF246 with a 4 stroke outboard on it. It would look better with a 225 ETEC HO on it. http://www.rosboroughboats.com/ Try to find a good used one. I really like that open cockpit model - looks a lot like the early model Uniflites. |
The Joys of Boating
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Vic Smith wrote: I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand, originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it. I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism. Dostoevsky knew what he was doing, however, in C and P. There's a guy posting in the ASA group using the Branden moniker. I don't bother with him either. --Vic It shows that you never bothered learning just about anything. A Mac26? A Mac26? Bwahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahah ahah! Were you a WAVE in the Navy? Wilbur Hubbard Wilbur Hubbard |
The Joys of Boating
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... As I do extensive reading in trying to select what boat will suit me best, I realize just how much fun boating is. snipped Hey Vicky, here's a boat that fits your abilities . . . You wahini! http://thebayguide.com/rec.boats/pho...sumpter_01.jpg Faster than a Mac and built better. Wilbur Hubbard |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:10:44 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Vic Smith wrote: I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand, originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it. I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism. Um..not really. Nihilism isn't a central feature of either novel. As defined nihilism isn't redemptive in any sense as it is mostly about self and the worthlessness of human endeavor - other words life has no worth, no truth and no type of social action is worth more than any other. C&P is a tale of redemption - salvation through suffering - the idea that This is the notion that suffering cleanses the spirit allowing for salvation in the eyes of God. Atlas Shrugged is pure, unadulterated New Wave bull**** years ahead of it's time. While it has some notable passages which might lead one to think of nihilism, it is really about perception of reality which is a feature of nihilist thought, but where nihilism distates that self worth isn't real, Objectivism is all about self worth and perception of reality - truth to the individual and society of individuals. Damn - I hated philosophy class. :) |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:02:36 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:32:11 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: --Livability. I just don't have the experience here, from what I've read the Mac is as comfortable as any 26. Since I've tented for weeks at a time, I don't see a problem with it. I'm not going to be living on the boat. Me and the wife on 2-6 week cruises, and we are not tall, and not fat. With all due respect, that boat will get very small for two people after a few days of cruising. I appreciate what you are trying to do but I hate to see you spend money on a boat that neither sails, motors or cruises very well. See if you can rent one for a week before you buy. In the long run I think you'd be happier with something like a RF246 with a 4 stroke outboard on it. http://www.rosboroughboats.com/ Try to find a good used one. Thanks. Nice boat, but might be a bit rich for my blood. Hadn't seen it before even with all my browsing. You may be right on target though, and I take your advice to try out what I'm buying before I buy it to heart. You gave me another avenue to explore. Although I'm not young, I'm still in pretty good shape, and do like the idea of sailing, having crewed some. --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... "Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Vic Smith wrote: I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand, originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it. I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism. Dostoevsky knew what he was doing, however, in C and P. There's a guy posting in the ASA group using the Branden moniker. I don't bother with him either. --Vic It shows that you never bothered learning just about anything. A Mac26? A Mac26? Bwahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahah ahah! Were you a WAVE in the Navy? Wilbur Hubbard Wilbur Hubbard See ya! plunk |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: Vic Smith wrote: I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand, originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it. I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism. Dostoevsky knew what he was doing, however, in C and P. There's a guy posting in the ASA group using the Branden moniker. I don't bother with him either. --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:19:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 16:44:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: Although I'm not young, I'm still in pretty good shape, and do like the idea of sailing, having crewed some. Sure, sailing is great fun but it is difficult to get a boat that sails well and cruises well, and still meets your shallow draft requirement. You might want to get an inexpensive day sailor just as a fun boat. There are lots to choose from, but one of my choices would be a Flying Scot. http://www.flyingscot.com/ They are good boats that sail very well and meet your specs with the exception of cruising. You can beach them and go tent camping of course. I'm guessing you could pick up a good used one with trailer for less than $5K. Boy, you're gonna keep me busy boating on the net for a few more days now! You've dead on about combining cruising/sailing/shallow draft capabilities in one boat I can afford. That Mac 26 comes closest right now. Ideally, I'd get a Flying Scot for sailing and something like the Rosborough RF-246 for cruising, but I'm not ready to commit that much money yet. Too many questions to be answered, especially some hands-on boating. Now I want to try that Flying Scot, but I've got no doubt it'll make the Max 26 feel like a dog under sail. Thanks for the ideas. Now I'll go tell the wife I changed my mind about buying a boat. I want at least 2 boats. --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
On Mar 24, 12:32�pm, Vic Smith
wrote: As I do extensive reading in trying to select what boat will suit me best, I realize just how much fun boating is. And I haven't even left the basement! Right now I'm leaning toward the MacGregor 26M. Might be new, might be used. *It's usually called a "motor sailor" * It's a high volume boat, inexpensive, and generally frowned upon by the "high speed" sailing crowd. *When under sail it doesn't perform as well as dedicated sailboats, though no single keel sailboat of similar size is exactly a speed demon. Some of the Mac's sailing performance deficit is inherent in its dual purpose design, and some appears to be because those who buy this Mac are not hard core sailors, and don't lend much effort to getting the most of its sailing capabilities. Everybody has different preferences in what they want from a boat, and I'm laying out some of mine here. *They might change when I get more experience, and they are in the end a balancing act, as always. -- Sailing area. *The boat will be used exclusively to cruise the west coast of Florida, from the panhandle to the Keys. -- Purpose. *Slow cruising and fishing. *Hook swinging in shallow, sheltered areas, exploring islands. *Shallow draft (+-18") is essential for this, and I won't bend here. *I don't dinghy. *Had enough dinghying/whaleboating when I was in the navy. On the fishing side it looks like the Mac cockpit is small, and freeboard all around is high, so it's sure not the best fishing platform, but I could fish off a jetski, so it's not a deal killer. Cruising might be a month out from home port, and I'll cover that under other categories. *Might get some subjects confused in a category, but I'll do my best to keep organized. * -- Economy. *My purchase/equip budget is @30k. *But that's if ongoing costs aren't going to eat me up. The Mac is trailerable, so when not in use it can be stored at relatively low cost. Despite its detractors, the Mac can move under sail from one place to another. *It might be tender, it might not point well, etc, etc. *No fuel used under sail. Under power at less than hull speed, I believe the boat is a fuel miser compared to similar sized power boats and heavier but similar sized sailboats. *When wind on the freeboard affects that economy, there's probably wind to sail instead. On the economy related new/used issue, I'll make my points under the construction topic. --Livability. *I just don't have the experience here, from what I've read the Mac is as comfortable as any 26. *Since I've tented for weeks at a time, I don't see a problem with it. *I'm not going to be living on the boat. *Me and the wife on 2-6 week cruises, and we are not tall, and not fat. --Construction. *I've seen many "better" sailboats recommended by the "real" sailors to those considering the Mac 26M. *This in order to get a "real" used sailboat for the price of a new Mac. When I started looking at some of the recommendations I found most are boats 20-40 years old. *There might be a problem even getting insurance on these. Besides, who wants a decrepit (insert pet sailboat here), mildew-stinking, stringer rotting, engine-dying, sail-rotting, barnicle-embedded, crap-in-the-bilge old ill-maintained boat when you can get a new Mac? *Some of these sailors bragging about how well their cachet-name sailboat is maintained probably don't do anything but shine brightwork, and leave Brasso swirls when doing that. Besides that, some of these boats are floating supported by 1/8" of glass over 1/4" of chopper-gun crud over a layer of poorly wetted cloth. From what I've read the production process used in building the Mac has more QC than most boat builders use. *I still don't know enough about that and other construction details to buy one, but I can find out, even if I have to visit the plant. *No teak, plenty of minor fit/finish complaints, light hardware, etc. A solid boat suitable for my purposes, or so it seems. Anyway, even an experienced surveyor can't always find the real quality of a boat. *Somebody recommended the Parker-Dawson 26 over the Mac and when I looked for info I found owners discovering deck cleats had not even large washers as backing. *One came adrift because of this and he lost the boat on the rocks.http://www.parkerdawson..com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=288 Now I'm not knocking this boat, just saying even a new boat must be gone over with a fine toothed comb, and an old boat may have well concealed problems that won't be found without taking it apart If they weren't questionable due to age, I'd much prefer a Dawson over a Mac. *Of course they were 40k new in 1983, and cross oceans. Some people are willing to buy an old boat and spend a lot of time bringing it up to snuff. *Not only do I not have the time or inclination, I get irritable when pulling off half-assed or unsuitable mods. So besides the issue of how a boat has been maintained and whether initial construction is going to bite you, there is the "clean slate" factor in making modifications. *This is possible even with a used recent Mac 26, because they aren't normally used as liveaboards and probably not much as overnighters. * From perusing the Mac site I see some have added air, gensets, dodgers, extra fresh water, etc. *The cabin is an open design from the factory with minimal cabinetry. When first looking at sailers, I tended toward a small diesel for economy when motoring. *But now I think the lost interior space and maintenance/cost issues of the diesel in a 26' boat make me lean in favor of a small 4-stroke on the transom. Just as most sailboaters recommend against the Mac 26M, the owners of the Mac 26M generally recommend max HP OB. *I'm not buying that either, since I won't be pulling tubes or skis as many of them do, or be in a hurry as many of them are. I'll be looking for my balance between sailing and powering in terms of OB weight. *Depending on tradeoffs, I'm not even sure I would get the boat on plane, which is one of its hull-type selling points. * * I had originally thought along the lines of a 24' Carolina Skiff for mostly short fishing trips, maybe some hook swinging under a popup which some CS owners do. *The CS is another economical, shallow draft and highly modifiable boat. But on a price/versatily basis the Mac has the CS beat - for me. Anyway, I'm still learning and all ears for any comments. *But please don't make my ears turn red. *OTOH, since I'm an old navy guy, that might be impossible. * --Vic . When you first began outlining your parameters, including the $30k budget, it sounded to me like the MacGregor 26 made a lot of sense as an option. Nothing has dissuaded me from that opinion. Just about everybody will agree that it doesn't sail "as well" as more conventional sailboats, but it sails well enough to enjoy the experience of sailing. Most of those sailors who feel that nobody should be seen in a boat that isn't the finest possible technical achievement ever launched under sail should stop criticizing your interest in the MacGregor and immediately go scuttle whatever also-highly-compromised boat it is that they currently own. With a single outboard, you can realize some pretty impressive speeds when in the "powerboat mode". As far as interior accommodation goes- that small cockpit that restricts your fishing room translates into about 3 times the interior cabin room of most 26-foot powerboats. Are there better boats out there than a MacGregor 26? Heck and absolutely yes. But not new or nearly new for $30k, and not that will meet most of your other qualifications in the process. As you can see, there are certain brands of boats (usually among the more moderately priced) where ownership comes with a steady barrage of nasty comments from nasty people who can't wait to tell you what a dunce you were for not buying whatever brand they happen to own. I have to wonder how many people wind up buying a beat up old hulk with an "acceptable" trade name on it just to avoid dealing with such jerks? If you have an interest in MacGregor, research the heck out of it. I'd hang out on the MacGregor owner's group site and ask a few questions, etc, if I were you. See if you can find somebody who is using one in the same sort of conditions or the same general vicinity where you plan to boat. There are those who will caution you that current owners are a poor resource because they tend to sing the praises of their own boat----- but what would be better? Folks who had never owned one and were merely inventing or passing along dock gossip? By all means, pay no attention at all to folks who feel compelled to call names or make disparaging personal remarks when belittling your interest in this or any other boat. If they had anything intelligent or useful to say about the subject they would do so, rather than publicly demonstrate their immaturity and lack of self control. The local MacGregor dealer is all but sold out until the end of the year. The MacGregor owners in the Pacific NW have an annual rendezous that is extremely well attended, and the boats are very popular, within their niche, in this corner of the country. I still think you'd be no worse off with a new Mac 26, (given the rest of your requirements) than you would be with a 1979 version of a "real" sailboat (with "real" headaches) for maybe the same kind of money. |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:42:13 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:41:23 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:10:44 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Vic Smith wrote: I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand, originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it. I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism. Um..not really. Nihilism isn't a central feature of either novel. Depends on your viewpoint/philosophy. I studied Dostoevsky as a lit student and nihilism *was* a central feature of C and P. Much analysis of the novel was devoted to nihilism, its manifestations and its cures. Maybe the philosophy department thought otherwise. Another thing taught by the lit department was practical analysis. There we learned to never say "Um, not really" in matters of literature and philosophy. As for Rand, my mention of nihilism is drawn from my own imputations on reading criticism, not text. As Harry said, some find her unreadable. That includes me. I'll brook no further quarrel on this subject, as it has now passed my weekly allotment of non-boating related subject matter. Besides, I ain't in school no mo' 10-4 |
The Joys of Boating
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:42:13 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:41:23 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:10:44 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Vic Smith wrote: I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand, originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it. I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism. Um..not really. Nihilism isn't a central feature of either novel. Depends on your viewpoint/philosophy. I studied Dostoevsky as a lit student and nihilism *was* a central feature of C and P. Much analysis of the novel was devoted to nihilism, its manifestations and its cures. Maybe the philosophy department thought otherwise. Another thing taught by the lit department was practical analysis. There we learned to never say "Um, not really" in matters of literature and philosophy. As for Rand, my mention of nihilism is drawn from my own imputations on reading criticism, not text. As Harry said, some find her unreadable. That includes me. I'll brook no further quarrel on this subject, as it has now passed my weekly allotment of non-boating related subject matter. Besides, I ain't in school no mo' 10-4 Actually, I didn't find Rand "unreadable." I mean, I read three of her novels when I was in the 8th grade. But even then I thought her prose was turgid, and her "philosophy" simple-minded. That was when I was 14 years old or so. Now, I'd consider reading her works only as an alternative to water-boarding. |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:01:26 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: Actually, I didn't find Rand "unreadable." I mean, I read three of her novels when I was in the 8th grade. Where did you go to Elementary School? Come on - 8th grade? But even then I thought her prose was turgid, and her "philosophy" simple-minded. That was when I was 14 years old or so. Now, I'd consider reading her works only as an alternative to water-boarding. On that we can agree. :) |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:08:43 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:50:16 -0400, "JimH" wrote: "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message It shows that you never bothered learning just about anything. A Mac26? A Mac26? Bwahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahah ahah! Were you a WAVE in the Navy? Wilbur Hubbard See ya! plunk Good idea. Sorry to bring this on, but it's par for the course when the Mac 26 is "discussed." I posted to the cruising group too, hoping for some useful input, and already got some. "Wilbur" is the Rod Speed of the boating groups, but like Speed, often has useful/insightful posts when he's not making you gag. Since "Wilbur" is a real sailor and a more entertaining writer than Speed, he's worthwhile when he's not baby talking or insulting people to no purpose. Rod Speed sounds like a good name for a porn star. On the other hand, Wilbur Hubbard sounds like the victim in a noir crime novel. :) Hubbard Speed would be a great name for a band. :) |
The Joys of Boating
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:01:26 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Actually, I didn't find Rand "unreadable." I mean, I read three of her novels when I was in the 8th grade. Where did you go to Elementary School? Come on - 8th grade? But even then I thought her prose was turgid, and her "philosophy" simple-minded. That was when I was 14 years old or so. Now, I'd consider reading her works only as an alternative to water-boarding. On that we can agree. :) Susan S. Sheridan Junior High School, Westville, Connecticut. Ms. Gough was my 8th Grade English teacher. In those days, but no longer, many of the New Haven schools were at the top of the heap, academically. Kids were divided into "General," "Academic," and Accelerated Academic" groups, and if you were in the latter, you had to produce. In Ms. Gough's class, we were required to write one 25-page book report a month, and it had to be on a "serious" book. I did three of Rand's novels in a row, and then Ms. Gough suggested I move on. So I did, to Theodore Dreiser. :} You'll be pleased to know that in those days, my math skills were mediocre, but I did very well in English, science, and history. In the seventh grade, for Science Project, I built a working cloud chamber. I still remember EXACTLY how I did it, and I can still recall all the necessary pieces and parts. I don't know if you can still buy a Model A spark coil, but it was a necessary piece for the cloud chamber. And you probably can't scrape radium off the face of an alarm clock anymore, either. Life was a lot different in those days. After school, we'd hang out at the Catholic school down the street because the nuns ran a supervised playground and ran informal hoops tournaments, and after an hour of that, we'd go to the library and do our homework. I never got home before 6:30 pm. Nowadays, of course, kids out that late would be snatched up by perverts. |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:41:23 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:10:44 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Vic Smith wrote: I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand, originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it. I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism. Um..not really. Nihilism isn't a central feature of either novel. Depends on your viewpoint/philosophy. I studied Dostoevsky as a lit student and nihilism *was* a central feature of C and P. Much analysis of the novel was devoted to nihilism, its manifestations and its cures. Maybe the philosophy department thought otherwise. Another thing taught by the lit department was practical analysis. There we learned to never say "Um, not really" in matters of literature and philosophy. As for Rand, my mention of nihilism is drawn from my own imputations on reading criticism, not text. As Harry said, some find her unreadable. That includes me. I'll brook no further quarrel on this subject, as it has now passed my weekly allotment of non-boating related subject matter. Besides, I ain't in school no mo' --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:08:43 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:50:16 -0400, "JimH" wrote: "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message It shows that you never bothered learning just about anything. A Mac26? A Mac26? Bwahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahah ahah! Were you a WAVE in the Navy? Wilbur Hubbard See ya! plunk Good idea. Sorry to bring this on, but it's par for the course when the Mac 26 is "discussed." I posted to the cruising group too, hoping for some useful input, and already got some. "Wilbur" is the Rod Speed of the boating groups, but like Speed, often has useful/insightful posts when he's not making you gag. Since "Wilbur" is a real sailor and a more entertaining writer than Speed, he's worthwhile when he's not baby talking or insulting people to no purpose. Rod Speed sounds like a good name for a porn star. On the other hand, Wilbur Hubbard sounds like the victim in a noir crime novel. :) Hubbard Speed would be a great name for a band. :) There is a Hubbard Speed in a way. Vic Hubbard Speed and Marine. Great speed shop. |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:10:44 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:55:47 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Vic Smith wrote: I knew a Branden in boot camp, but maybe it was Brandon. We never used first names, so I have no idea on that. Too busy boating right now to look in the boot camp book. --Vic I believe the Branden referred to here was a follower of Ayn Rand, originator of the most turgid bits of pseudo-philosophy and prose ever perpetrated on mankind. Or close to it. I started reading Atlas Shrugged once. Started. Quite a contrast in the work of a Dostoevsky writing Crime and Punishment, and a Rand writing her crap, though both were essentially writing about nihilism. Dostoevsky knew what he was doing, however, in C and P. There's a guy posting in the ASA group using the Branden moniker. I don't bother with him either. --Vic I enjoyed 'The Fountainhead', but couldn't get in to 'Atlas Shrugged'. -- ***** Hope your day is better than decent! ***** John H |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:50:16 -0400, "JimH"
wrote: "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message It shows that you never bothered learning just about anything. A Mac26? A Mac26? Bwahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahah ahah! Were you a WAVE in the Navy? Wilbur Hubbard See ya! plunk Good idea. Sorry to bring this on, but it's par for the course when the Mac 26 is "discussed." I posted to the cruising group too, hoping for some useful input, and already got some. "Wilbur" is the Rod Speed of the boating groups, but like Speed, often has useful/insightful posts when he's not making you gag. Since "Wilbur" is a real sailor and a more entertaining writer than Speed, he's worthwhile when he's not baby talking or insulting people to no purpose. --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
Good idea. Sorry to bring this on, but it's par for the course when the Mac 26 is "discussed." I posted to the cruising group too, hoping for some useful input, and already got some. "Wilbur" is the Rod Speed of the boating groups, but like Speed, often has useful/insightful posts when he's not making you gag. Since "Wilbur" is a real sailor and a more entertaining writer than Speed, he's worthwhile when he's not baby talking or insulting people to no purpose. --Vic definitions: Any ways you got good advice from a bunch of folks: since i do not "sail" but was on ships for most of my life. I would say the other leg of this stool is to go a talk to some of the folks down on the gulf coast of florida and on up to texas face to face and ask questions. if this boat is not going to be anyplace else you might not need what you think you need. 2MT |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:48:24 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: Now I want to try that Flying Scot, but I've got no doubt it'll make the Max 26 feel like a dog under sail. More like 3 dogs :-) The Flying Scot will run circles around it. The mac 26 is just too big a compromise in my opinion. Most people end up using them under power most of the time, and they aren't nearly as well suited for that as a real power boat. |
The Joys of Boating
On 24 Mar 2007 16:50:30 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote: With a single outboard, you can realize some pretty impressive speeds when in the "powerboat mode". Strangely enough, this hardly interests me, although since it's there I'll probably make use of it at one time or another. I'm really not at all interested in speed, and would be content with a trawler or tug if that could happily meet my finances. My goals have a lot vested in economy. Sails suit that well with the silent pleasure aspect of sailing thrown in. As far as interior accommodation goes- that small cockpit that restricts your fishing room translates into about 3 times the interior cabin room of most 26-foot powerboats. Good point, and one I easily forget when thinking about how I'm going to fish from that boat. I *really* need some hands-on time. As you can see, there are certain brands of boats (usually among the more moderately priced) where ownership comes with a steady barrage of nasty comments from nasty people who can't wait to tell you what a dunce you were for not buying whatever brand they happen to own. I have to wonder how many people wind up buying a beat up old hulk with an "acceptable" trade name on it just to avoid dealing with such jerks? Or a new Honda instead of a used Chevy (-: Being a used Chevy guy, my skin deflects all arrows. And has some bearing on why I can afford a boat in the first place! I still think you'd be no worse off with a new Mac 26, (given the rest of your requirements) than you would be with a 1979 version of a "real" sailboat (with "real" headaches) for maybe the same kind of money. Thanks for your comments, Chuck. --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:39:35 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote: snippity-snip No. He was a Canadian psychologist who along with Ayn Rand defined Objectivism - basically the precursor of Libertarianism. Was a member of a group called "The Collective" which had some interesting members including Alan Greenspan. Which explains the gooble de gook Greenspan used during his Congressional testimony. Want to give yourself a headache? Parse the following: "The issue of concepts (known as "the problem of universals") is philosophy's central issue. Since man's knowledge is gained and held in conceptual form, the validity of man's knowledge depends upon the validity of concepts. But concepts are abstractions or universals, and everything that man perceives is particular, concrete. What is the relationship between abstractions and concretes? To what precisely do concepts refer in reality? Do they refer to something real, something that exist - or are they merely inventions of man's mind, arbitrary constructs or loose approximations that can not claim to represent knowledge?" I'll wait. :) Easy. "Is it live, or is it Memorex?" sums it up nicely. Mark E. Williams |
The Joys of Boating
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:11:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote: Rod Speed sounds like a good name for a porn star. He's an Aussie, and that's his real name. Quite a pest, but sometimes actually makes good sense. On the other hand, Wilbur Hubbard sounds like the victim in a noir crime novel. :) LOL. You're right. Hubbard Speed would be a great name for a band. :) On that too. --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
On 24 Mar 2007 18:13:21 -0700, "Two meter troll"
wrote: Any ways you got good advice from a bunch of folks: since i do not "sail" but was on ships for most of my life. I'll sure remember what you said about wiring. I would say the other leg of this stool is to go a talk to some of the folks down on the gulf coast of florida and on up to texas face to face and ask questions. if this boat is not going to be anyplace else you might not need what you think you need. 2MT Sounds like an excellent idea. And a nice vacation too! --Vic |
The Joys of Boating
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:48:24 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: Now I want to try that Flying Scot, but I've got no doubt it'll make the Max 26 feel like a dog under sail. More like 3 dogs :-) The Flying Scot will run circles around it. The mac 26 is just too big a compromise in my opinion. Most people end up using them under power most of the time, and they aren't nearly as well suited for that as a real power boat. Far from defending the Mac26, I will say that there are situations when it seems to be appropriate. For example, I know a couple who have one, and they almost exclusively explore the marshland near a community in the SF bayarea. They don't venture out onto the bay much... perhaps 5 percent of the time and then only in the south bay. They like bird watching and don't want to kayak, since they stay out for a couple of days in a row. I think they do sail it a bit, but mostly they motor very slowly hither and yon. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
The Joys of Boating
Vic Smith wrote:
Thanks. Nice boat, but might be a bit rich for my blood. Hadn't seen it before even with all my browsing. You may be right on target though, and I take your advice to try out what I'm buying before I buy it to heart. You gave me another avenue to explore. Although I'm not young, I'm still in pretty good shape, and do like the idea of sailing, having crewed some. --Vic Heck, Vic. My boat is smaller that that - a LOT smaller - and we do fine for a few nights. Who you are with makes a big difference. Richard |
The Joys of Boating
On Mar 24, 6:52�pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:48:24 -0600, Vic Smith wrote: Now I want to try that Flying Scot, but I've got no doubt it'll make the Max 26 feel like a dog under sail. More like 3 dogs * *:-) The Flying Scot will run circles around it. The mac 26 is just too big a compromise in my opinion. *Most people end up using them under power most of the time, and they aren't nearly as well suited for that as a real power boat. Good observation. It may be regionally significant, or not. The best months for sailing in my region are when it's pretty cold and still peeing down rain in the spring and fall. The winds don't come up until late in the afternoon a lot of midsummer days when the weather is warmer. As a result, most of the sailboats in this corner of the country operate under power most of the time. Sailing seems to be reserved for racing, or for screwing around with for an hour or two after arriving in the general vicinity of the ultimate daily destination. Of course there are scattered exceptions, just enough to prove the rule. From that respect, a MacGregor that spent most of its time in powerboat mode wouldn't vary much from a more elite brand doing the same thing. |
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