Venice, FL bad water cop
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 7, 5:02?am, "Keith" wrote:
Yea, that's him. The paper spun the article like he's some sort of
hero collecting taxes from nee'r do wells.


The facts as outlined in the article don't justify any sort of outrage
at all.

The guy wrote a walloping total of 255 tickets last year, less than
one per day.


Better hit the math books again Chuck. The *average* work year is some 240
days.

Venice, FL bad water cop
 

On Mar 7, 9:01�am, "JimH" wrote:


Better hit the math books again Chuck. *The *average* work year is some 240
days.

Slacker. :-)

You're giving this guy 30 days per year paid leave and every weekend
off?
Maybe so, public employee and all....

Using your numbers, he's all the way up to 1.06 tickets per day
instead of "less than one". The material fact is that he's not some
sort of out-of-control ticket writing robot slapping a citation on
everything in sight.

He's enforcing the Florida law that says your boat must be registered
in some state, and that state can be somewhere other than Florida if
that is where you live. He's handing out warning tickets to out-of-
state boaters who come from states that don't require boat
registration, when if he wanted to be a real stickler he would be
entirely justified in writing them an actual citation. The folks who
receive a warning ticket have two weeks to either finish their
vacation in Florida and go back home -or figure out how to get a state
registration, (presumably from Florida), for their boat.

The guy sounds like a bit of a jerk, with the lawbooks and all, but I
suspect he carries those as a result of confrontations with folks who
don't know the law or who feel that the laws of the State of Alabama
(or wherever) just ought to apply in Florida.

Why would we not want to obey the laws of states and countries where
we are visitors? Makes no sense to me to do otherwise.

Venice, FL bad water cop
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Mar 7, 9:01?am, "JimH" wrote:


Better hit the math books again Chuck. The *average* work year is some 240
days.

Slacker. :-)

You're giving this guy 30 days per year paid leave and every weekend
off?
====================

Umm........no, I am giving him 20 days per year paid leave.

5 days/week (heck, that can even include weekends for those of us with an
open mind) x 52 weeks less 20 days vacation, paid holidays and sick leave =
240 work days.

Try the math again Chuck.....you can use your fingers and toes if that helps
you. ;-)

Venice, FL bad water cop
 

Chuck, you're basing all your writing on that article, which was
obviously written with a spin to make him a hero. The outrage is
caused by his abusive behavior to boaters, his writing tickets to
boats for no good reason, and his general harassment of boaters
passing through the area, as well as FL residents. Here are a few
comments from others:
____________
OK I read the article and I don't understand something. If your from
out of
state and your legally registered or documented in accordance with
the laws
of your state then your permitted to travel in the state of FL for up
to 90
days. If that is the law then why does this guy issue a warning ticket
to out of
state boats when there is no evidence or proof you have violated
that law?

I live in FL I document and register and pay sales tax on my boats
as
required by state law. Yet I have been boarded three times by this guy
to check
paper work no violations were ever found. This guy has never checked
fire
extinguishers or life jackets or anything else he is focused
completely on
registrations.

There are thousands of laws that we all have to abide by I understand
that.
Any police officer at any time can pull you over in your car and check
for
license registration insurance etc that's legal. But if an officer in
one
particular town was doing that over and over again with no outward
signs of any
violation He is no longer serving the public good but instead
satisfying his own
obsession or fetish.
__________________________________________________ __
You folks should remember you don't have to be from out of state to
be
treated like a criminal in Venice. I'm a FL resident proudly
displaying my up to
date decal and officer Fetish has boarded me three times. Any boat
from anywhere
is fair game to the obsessed in uniform.
_______________________________________________
Lousiana does not have boat registration. So what happens if you're
from LA and pass through Venice? You get a ticket. TX has
registration. So if you're from TX, registered there and have a
Federal documentation, what happens if you pass through Venice? You
get a ticket. Seeing the pattern? Even if you don't get a ticket, you
get stopped and harassed. None too nicely or professionally either.

Now how can FL tell you that your boat must be registered in some
state? Do they write the laws for the other 49 states? I think not,
and there is no Federal law requiring state registrations. Again (link
provided earlier) you can be from another state and cruise in FL for
90 days straight or 181 total within a year and not have to register
in FL. He doesn't care... you can be there 5 days and you get the
ticket anyway. Just revenue generation.

Venice, FL bad water cop
 

On 8 Mar 2007 01:43:23 -0800, "Keith"
wrote:

But if an officer in one particular town was doing that over
and over again with no outward signs of any violation He is
no longer serving the public good but instead satisfying his
own obsession or fetish.

You answered your own question.

Venice, FL bad water cop
 

On Mar 8, 1:43?am, "Keith" wrote:


Now how can FL tell you that your boat must be registered in some
state? Do they write the laws for the other 49 states? I think not,
and there is no Federal law requiring state registrations. Again (link
provided earlier) you can be from another state and cruise in FL for
90 days straight or 181 total within a year and not have to register
in FL. He doesn't care... you can be there 5 days and you get the
ticket anyway. Just revenue generation.

There's no doubt that this guy has a problem with his policing style,
or else he wouldn't have so many people upset with him.

There is no federal law requiring state registrations, but each state
has the right
to set its own standards. It isn't ridiculous for a state to declare
that if you are going to operate a boat on its waters you need to be
able to identify who owns the boat. Short of raising a hand and saying
"It's mine, officer", the accepted norm for that would be a state
registration.

You reference to the 181 days is not inconsistent with this water
cop's enforcement activities. You can boat in Florida with a boat that
is registered in any state. *After* you have boated there for 91
straight days or 181 within a given year, Florida wants you to get a
Florida registration- and that is very consistent with other state
laws that I am aware of. But even on the first day of use in Florida,
the boat has to have a registration from some state.

Because the State of Florida requires that a boat be registered in
*some* state
to be used on Florida waterways, the watercop is simply doing his job
when he cites a boat that has no registration from any state. Unless
the author of the linked newspaper article was lying, the watercop
only writes a warning ticket to owners of boats who live in states
where there is no state registration requirement. Under the terms of
the warning, the boaters still have two weeks to get their boat out of
Florida or get a registration. A Florida resident who is boating
without a registration doesn't have the excuse "I come from a state
where they don't require boats to be registered", and gets a ticket.

Consider a parallel situation with automobile license plates. If you
were driving around in FLorida, Michigan, or any other state with
either no license plates or with tabs that had expired 2-3 years ago
you wouldn't think it unusual at all to be stopped by a cop. There
proably isn't a federal law that requires states to license
automobiles, either, but telling the Michigan cop that your Montana
plates may be 2 years out of date but since you're not in Montana it
doesn't matter won't get you very far.

Venice, FL bad water cop
 

Because the State of Florida requires that a boat be registered in
*some* state
to be used on Florida waterways, the watercop is simply doing his job
when he cites a boat that has no registration from any state.

The state of FL has no right to require other states to do anything.
If they want to get horsey about it, I imagine the other states on the
Gulf Coast should reciprocate and immeditely ticket any FL boater that
enters their water without a registration in their state. Most states
recognize transients and welcome them and their $$. This cop is simply
writing tickets to non-locals, knowing that 99% of them will just pay
the fine, rather than returning later (possibly multiple times) to go
to court to fight it. It's just another form of piracy.


Your auto argument is moot, since every state require auto
registration and plates. Again, this guy would give you a ticket just
because you had an out-of-state plate. Same thing he's doing to boats.
A few more comments by others:
__________________________________________________ ___--
Here's the deal. The law is the law. When different municipalities
or
different officers are allowed to interpret the same law differently,
chaos
ensues. That's the problem that we have in Florida right now
regarding the
anchorage law snafu. Some municipalities seem to think that they are
above
the law and have decided to go their own way regardless of what the
State Law
says. I fully support the state's right to collect a use tax after 90
days
but that's not what this guy is doing. He is making it up as he
goes. As the
good old boys say, "taint right".
__________________________________________________ __-
Wait, let me get this straight:
We own a documented boat which is also registered in Maryland. We
travel to Florida, and find ourselves in lovely Venice.
This guy boards our boat and gives us a warning ticket because we
MIGHT be staying in Florida for more than 90 days.
(Or does he give us a regular ticket because we MIGHT be staying in
Florida over the 90 days?)
In either event he makes us very aware, either subtly or not so
subtly, of the badge, and his power, and authority, which as a law-
abiding citizen has never happened to me before because I've always
had a good relationship with police of any sort. I feel guilty, even
though I'm not. I feel persecuted. I feel bad. I don't NEED to be
there.

In fact if I have this straight then we certainly have no reason to go
to lovely Venice in the first place, do we.

Too bad.
__________________________________________________ ___
Just for grins I went on the web site for the Florida Wildlife
Commission.
There is an ask it section where you can post a question about
vessel
registration. Maybe the folks in Venice, FL. should go to
Myflorida.com
and read what it says. Maybe reading the FWC web site should become
part of their training.

It clearly states the 90 day rule for visiting boaters. Of course
this doesn't
mean that this officer has to stop acting like a jerk. He can still
stop vessels
and harass cruisers from out of state.

What I find hard to believe is he has kept his job for 26 years.
Must be related
to, or has pictures on someone that has the power to make sure he
doesn't
loose his job.
__________________________________________________ ________
Not to mention dozens of "I just won't stop there any more" comments.
HIt 'em in the pocketbook.

Venice, FL bad water cop
 

On Mar 8, 7:42?am, "Keith" wrote:
Because the State of Florida requires that a boat be registered in
*some* state
to be used on Florida waterways, the watercop is simply doing his job
when he cites a boat that has no registration from any state.

The state of FL has no right to require other states to do anything.

Nor are they trying to make any other states do anything.

If you want to use a boat in Florida, the Florida law says it must be
registered in some state. If none of the other 49 states wanted to
register boats, Florida would not have the power to require them to do
so.

People who bring boats to Florida from states where there is no
registration of boats or where it is considered "optional" are
informed about the Florida law, let off with a warning, and told they
have 2-weeks to finish up their visit to Florida *or* apply for a
registration.

Yes, yes, yes, the guy is a jerk. No doubt. But charges that he is
ticketing people for operating "completely legal" do not appear to be
true. Completely legal in one state isn't always completely legal in
another.Example: for a long time, the drinking age in Idaho was 19
while it was 21 in Washington. If a cop caught a 19 year old kid
chugging a beer in a Washington State Park, the defense "but I'm a
resident of Idaho" wouldn't fly at all. Nobody gets a pass from
obeying the law in one state simply because the law in their home
state is different.

Heck, same with fish and game laws. If you can keep a limit of 20
Xfish in Georgia but the state limit is only 12 Xfish in Florida,
nobody would argue that they should be allowed to keep 20 Xfish while
in Florida because he or she was a legal resident of Georgia.

Venice, FL bad water cop
 

On 8 Mar 2007 17:25:34 -0800, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

People who bring boats to Florida from states where there is no
registration of boats or where it is considered "optional" are
informed about the Florida law, let off with a warning, and told they
have 2-weeks to finish up their visit to Florida *or* apply for a
registration.

There's the crux of the matter.

A warning implies that one has broken a law and the law enforcement
option is to issue a warning so that one doesn't (1) do it again or is
notified that a problem exists and needs correction.

What this guy is doing is judging intent ahead of time - if the
reports are as stated. He can't do that - in fact, a case could be
made for profiling if he does this on a regular basis. I'm surprised
that somebody hasn't done so.

It's a question of intent. He has the right to stop a vessel and ask,
but if the owner presents documents that indicate it is owned by a
person whose state of residence doesn't require registration or
visible evidence of registration, he does not have the right to issue
a warning for a law that has not been broken.

A warning is an official law enforcement document - law enforcement
officers and adminsitrations track warnings issued. In this case, to
issue a warning, he would have to be able to prove that the vessel has
been in Florida waters for longer than two weeks - which would be
impossible to prove. He can't issue a warning for less than two weeks
because no law has been broken.

Venice, FL bad water cop
 

On Mar 8, 5:43�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 8 Mar 2007 17:25:34 -0800, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
People who bring boats to Florida from states where there is no
registration of boats or where it is considered "optional" are
informed about the Florida law, let off with a warning, and told they
have 2-weeks to finish up their visit to Florida *or* apply for a
registration.

There's the crux of the matter.

A warning implies that one has broken a law and the law enforcement
option is to issue a warning so that one doesn't (1) do it again or is
notified that a problem exists and needs correction.


Yes, indeed. I agree completely. The Florida State Law says that to
operate a boat on the waterways in Florida it must have a valid
registration in *some* state. (There is no need to get a FLA
registration unless operating more than 90 days at a time or more than
181 days per year).

People who operate unregistered boats in Florida have indeed broken a
Florida State Law, even if the operation of a boat without a
registration happens to be legal in whatever state they normally live
in. The two week grace period is for people who have been given a
warning ticket- but the offense occurs the first moment that an
unregistered boat is operated.

It's a simple as a speed limit, really. If I live in a state where the
speed limit is 70 and get hauled over for doing 65 mph in some state
where the limit is 55, the fact that where I come from the limit is 70
mph won't get too far off the ground in front of any judge in the
country.

People operating unregistered boats are in violation of Florida State
Law. The purpose of the warning is to call that fact to their
attention and alert them that they need to address the problem or get
out of state within two weeks.






What this guy is doing is judging intent ahead of time - if the
reports are as stated. *He can't do that - in fact, a case could be
made for profiling if he does this on a regular basis. *I'm surprised
that somebody hasn't done so.

It's a question of intent. *He has the right to stop a vessel and ask,
but if the owner presents documents that indicate it is owned by a
person whose state of residence doesn't require registration or
visible evidence of registration, he does not have the right to issue
a warning for a law that has not been broken.

A warning is an official law enforcement document - law enforcement
officers and adminsitrations track warnings issued. *In this case, to
issue a warning, he would have to be able to prove that the vessel has
been in Florida waters for longer than two weeks - which would be
impossible to prove. *He can't issue a warning for less than two weeks
because no law has been broken.

No, I think you misread the news article. The citable offense is
operating the unregistered boat in Florida *at all*, not operating it
there for more than two weeks. Once the warning has been issued, the
violator then has two weeks to correct the situation or get out of
state. If a warning has been issued and the same guy gets caught 2
weeks later, he won't get another warning- he'll get the full meal
deal.