Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No
one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.

I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

David Scheidt wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No
one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.

Mirrors, maybe, but not smoke!

They're supposed to reduce the smoke....

DT

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
n.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.

Chuck,
You should ask the dealer to lend you a "magnetic fuel conditioner", so
you can do some "test" on your boat. You could then publish the results
in your magazine. If the fuel is being burnt more efficiently and less
is being pumped out as unburned fuel and/or smoke, one should expect an
increase in your mpg and/or gph at any given rpm.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 10:08�am, David Scheidt wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:

:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. *The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. *No
one has done such studies. *Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.

I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
indepedent organization.

Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
"unverifiable".

It remains an interesting possibility.

I always remember the gorilla. Until about 100 years ago, the gorilla
was considered to be a myth. Not because hundreds of thousands of
people hadn't seen a gorilla, but because the *right* people (western
scientists) had never seen one. :-)

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 10:16?am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:


I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.- Hide quoted text -


I think a snake would be diamagnetic. :-)

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jan 30, 10:08?am, David Scheidt wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:

:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No
one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.

I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
indepedent organization.

Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
"unverifiable".

It remains an interesting possibility.

I always remember the gorilla. Until about 100 years ago, the gorilla
was considered to be a myth. Not because hundreds of thousands of
people hadn't seen a gorilla, but because the *right* people (western
scientists) had never seen one. :-)


What's that saying you use down there...?? * I'm from
Missouri *

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
:On Jan 30, 10:08???am, David Scheidt wrote:
: Chuck Gould wrote:
:
: :I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
: :a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
: :by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
: :well-known and respected local company representing it as well.
:
: If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
: independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. ?The studies would
: show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
: emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
: improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. ?No
: one has done such studies. ?Instead, what you've got is
: pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
: smoke, and a few mirrors.

:I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
:experience with one.

:You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
:personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
:indepedent organization.

The people that sell these things make specific claims: "Better fuel
economy!", "More power!", "Reduced emissions", etc. Fuel economy,
power production, and tailpipe emissions are all testable by widely
known, well understood, and generally agreed to be useful and valid
methods. Fuel magnets are not a new idea; people have been selling
them for 50 years or more. If they worked, you'd know about it,
because engine manufacturors would include them in their product.
Once one vendor did, everyone else would have to follow suit -- all
things being equal, would you use the engine that is rated for 10%
more fuel use?

I don't believe they work, because I know enough physics to understand
that the claims people make are equivalant to claiming the moon is
made of green cheese.

:Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
:that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
:needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
:than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
:some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
:convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
:sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
:"unverifiable".

So you ask someone, who's just spent a silly amount of money having
one of these things installed, whether it works. Of course they're
going to say it does. To say it doesn't, would mean admiting that
they'd been taken in on the scam. People don't like to admit they've
made mistakes that cost them money.


David

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:01:12 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

The people that sell these things make specific claims: "Better fuel
economy!", "More power!", "Reduced emissions", etc. Fuel economy,
power production, and tailpipe emissions are all testable by widely
known, well understood, and generally agreed to be useful and valid
methods. Fuel magnets are not a new idea; people have been selling
them for 50 years or more. If they worked, you'd know about it,
because engine manufacturors would include them in their product.
Once one vendor did, everyone else would have to follow suit -- all
things being equal, would you use the engine that is rated for 10%
more fuel use?

All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On 30 Jan 2007 10:41:50 -0800, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

On Jan 30, 10:16?am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:


I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.- Hide quoted text -


I think a snake would be diamagnetic. :-)

Chuck, I don't think you are dong the boating community any favor by
giving these devices undeserved publicity.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:08�am, David Scheidt wrote:

Chuck Gould wrote:

:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No
one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.


I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
indepedent organization.

Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
"unverifiable".

It remains an interesting possibility.

I always remember the gorilla. Until about 100 years ago, the gorilla
was considered to be a myth. Not because hundreds of thousands of
people hadn't seen a gorilla, but because the *right* people (western
scientists) had never seen one. :-)


One could make the same argument about almost anything. Say, a
perpetual motion machine. "until 100 years ago nobody believed in
Gorillas, now they don't believe in my perpetual motion machine"

The explanation you quoted in the first post was pretty much gibberish,
near as I can tell. Magnets creating othohydrogen and killing bacteria?

You don't believe this stuff do you?



--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:31:27 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .

All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.


The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch


Would it make chili taste better? That's the question.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 4:31 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message

...



All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.

The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch

I DO know a lot about magnetism and will state that what was posted is
mostly blather unrelated to any possible reason for magnetism to help
diesel burn better.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck,

Good grief, hombre, why even mention this crap on here except to provoke a
response. Not a good thing to do if one wishes to enhance one's
credibility.

Butch
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
ups.com...
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.



The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch


In all that gabble about ortho and para hydrogen did anyone mention they
are nuclear spin isomers of a H2 molecule? Para-hydrogen has the spins
in opposite directions, Ortho-hydrogen has the spins in the same
direction. However Diesel and Gasolene dont contain free Hydrogen
molecules! It is possible for certain hydrocarbon molecules to have
different spin isomers, but the bigger the molecule, the more readily it
can 'flop' from one state to another and the more similar are the
physical and chemical properties of the many different states. In any
case, the effects cannot persist for long outside the extremely strong
magnetic field required to noticably influence nuclear spin. By the time
the fuel has left the device, any possible effect is OVER. For a quick
sanity check on the claims, look at the miniscule side effects to the
patient of NMR imaging, in which an intense magnetic field is used to
align the spin of a proportion of the atoms in the patient so their
distribution and element can be determined. If *any* of the claimed
long term effects on diesel bacteria were true, either *every* patient
would be given NMR treatment instead of antibiotics or NMR would only be
useful for autopsies as it would kill all the patients.

If Chuck wants to perform a useful service, he should perform a
double-blind trial. He will need a twin engine boat with advanced fuel
system and engine monitoring. Ideally the engines would be new,
otherwise they should be the same age and hours and recently serviced.
He will also need two of the 'magnetic devices', some fuel line, 4
bulkhead fittings, 2 identical opaque enclosures large enough to house
the devices and some tamper-proof warrenty labels. Each enclosure
should be assembled with two bulkhead fittings and a device mounted
inside it. The external appearance *must* be identical. In one of them
the device should be connected to the fittings, in the other the same
length of fuel line should be used to conect the two fittings bypassing
the device. Have a stranger shuffle the two boxes while you are out of
the room and then return and seal the two boxes with the warrenty seals
and label them A and B. Have boxes A and B fitted in identical sections
of the fuel lines to the port and starboard engines and run the boat
next season. Keep detailed signed records of fuel consumption and all
engine performance data available and which box is on which engine. At
every service interval, swap boxes A & B. When you lay the boat up for
the winter, get a witness and open the boxes to determine which of A & B
was the dummy and which was 'active'. Post the raw results and give us
a link here. Write an article for the magazine.

I would expect any *genuine* fuel conditioning device manufacturer
(filtration, additives or whatever) to co-operate with a proper double
blind trial conduted by a boating magazine , even to the extent of
providing the two devices free. I doubt the magnetic widget suppliers
will even let chuck buy a pair if he lets slip he wants to do proper
tests on them. If Chuck is willing to attempt the trial but finds the
manufacturer un-cooperative, we must assume the devices are pure snake oil.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Butch Davis wrote:
Chuck,

Good grief, hombre, why even mention this crap on here except to provoke a
response. Not a good thing to do if one wishes to enhance one's
credibility.

Butch
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
ups.com...
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.



I hope they don't put that article in his magazine, it would hurt the
magazine's creditability much more.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 01:17:44 +0000, Ian Malcolm
wrote:

we must assume the devices are pure snake oil.

Aaayup.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects
and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of
minimum results. It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer
testimonials".

But if it doesn't actually DO anything then there's nothing to break, is
there? Talk about a perfect scam.

They're bogus, completely. But PT Barnum was right and folks like that
prove him right every day.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 10:26�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
n.



I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.

If you want to know how effective the mfg'er and the dealer believe
check out the warranty onhttp://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects
and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of
minimum results. *It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer
testimonials".

According to my contact at this company's local retail dealer, the
devices are being sold with a "satisfaction guarantee". IOW, put one
on, see if it works for you, and if it doesn't you get your money
back. My contact said that his company would not have agreed to carry
the item if it were not for the satsfaction guarantee. Like my, all he
has to go on are a list of satisfied customers and some general
understanding that it *might* work.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 11:51?am, Wayne.B wrote:
On 30 Jan 2007 10:41:50 -0800, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:16?am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.- Hide quoted text -

I think a snake would be diamagnetic. :-)

Chuck, I don't think you are dong the boating community any favor by
giving these devices undeserved publicity.

I'm not endorsing them or claiming any specific knowledge that they
work.
Everybody who has been boating for more than a week should already be
aware of these devices; they are on display and advertised all over
the place.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 10:36�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.

Chuck,
You should ask the dealer to lend you a "magnetic fuel conditioner", so
you can do some "test" on your boat. *You could then publish the results
in your magazine. *If the fuel is being burnt more efficiently and less
is being pumped out as unburned fuel and/or smoke, one should expect an
increase in your mpg and/or gph at any given rpm.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'd be willing to try one out to see if I could tell any difference,
but they're not suitable for use with iron fuel tanks.

Like I have said, I'm not claiming that these things work- merely
intrigued by the possiblity that they might and that there may be some
scientific basis for a magnetic field affecting the electrons of the
hyrodgen atom.

If these devices are a scam (and they might be), it is certainly one
of the longest running and most successful scams to come down the pike
in a long time. Magnetic fuel conditioners have been around for at
least 10 years that I can remember, and probably more. The local
dealer for another brand of magnetic fuel conditioner mentioned to me
that he sold out of these things today, retailing as many in the first
5 days of this year's boat show as he sold in all 9 days last year.

So far in this discussion we have:

Gould, wondering whether these things could work
Others, absolutely certain that they could not work
Still others, claiming that they have used one of these devices and
been pleased with the result.

Notably missing:

Anyone with first hand experience with a magnetic fuel conditioner who
noticed either no results or negative results. Anybody out there
willing to fess up? :-)

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 11:01�am, David Scheidt wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:

:On Jan 30, 10:08???am, David Scheidt wrote:
: Chuck Gould wrote:
:
: :I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
: :a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
: :by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
: :well-known and respected local company representing it as well.
:
: If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
: independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. ?The studies would
: show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
: emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
: improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. ?No
: one has done such studies. ?Instead, what you've got is
: pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
: smoke, and a few mirrors.

:I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
:experience with one.

:You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
:personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
:indepedent organization.

The people that sell these things make specific claims: "Better fuel
economy!", "More power!", "Reduced emissions", etc. *Fuel economy,
power production, and tailpipe emissions are all testable by widely
known, well understood, and generally agreed to be useful and valid
methods. *Fuel magnets are not a new idea; people have been selling
them for 50 years or more. *If they worked, you'd know about it,
because engine manufacturors would include them in their product.
Once one vendor did, everyone else would have to follow suit -- all
things being equal, would you use the engine that is rated for 10%
more fuel use? *

I don't believe they work, because I know enough physics to understand
that the claims people make are equivalant to claiming the moon is
made of green cheese.

:Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
:that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
:needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
:than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
:some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
:convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
:sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
:"unverifiable".

So you ask someone, who's just spent a silly amount of money having
one of these things installed, whether it works. *Of course they're
going to say it does. *To say it doesn't, would mean admiting that
they'd been taken in on the scam. *People don't like to admit they've
made mistakes that cost them money. *

David

How would an acceptable test from an independent organization differ
from
this data, compiled by a company certified by the California Air
Resouce Board?

http://www.diesel-fuels.com/pdf/lgx-test.pdf


Please understand, I'm not defending the data or insisting that these
devices work, simply wondering what the standard for an independent
test would be?

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:

:I'd be willing to try one out to see if I could tell any difference,
:but they're not suitable for use with iron fuel tanks.

:Like I have said, I'm not claiming that these things work- merely
:intrigued by the possiblity that they might and that there may be some
:scientific basis for a magnetic field affecting the electrons of the
:hyrodgen atom.

The moon is made of green cheese, Chuck. That's just as likely as
these things working. The allegedly scientific explanation makes as
much sense as pointing a wand at your engine, saying "Abra-Cadbra!"
and expecting your fuel usage to fall. Don't take my word for it,
though. See what the FTC has to say:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm

If they worked, you'd know it. They're a scam.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 9:21�pm, David Scheidt wrote:


The moon is made of green cheese, Chuck. *That's just as likely as
these things working. *The allegedly scientific explanation makes as
much sense as pointing a wand at your engine, saying "Abra-Cadbra!"
and expecting your fuel usage to fall. *Don't take my word for it,
though. *See what the FTC has to say:http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm

If they worked, you'd know it. *They're a scam.

Certainly very interesting.

Any comment on the data developed by a CARB certified testing agency
and linked in a previous post in this thread? �

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:26�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
n.



I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.
If you want to know how effective the mfg'er and the dealer believe
check out the warranty onhttp://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects
and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of
minimum results. �It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer
testimonials".

According to my contact at this company's local retail dealer, the
devices are being sold with a "satisfaction guarantee". IOW, put one
on, see if it works for you, and if it doesn't you get your money
back. My contact said that his company would not have agreed to carry
the item if it were not for the satsfaction guarantee. Like my, all he
has to go on are a list of satisfied customers and some general
understanding that it *might* work.


As someone else pointed out, according to the EPA, who has tested the
"magnetic fuel conditioners" they do not work and according to the FTC
they are scams, and all consumers should be skeptical of their "consumer
testimonials".

Reminds me of all the "consumer testimonials" provided by Slick 50.
After a few years it was found that Slick 50 actually damaged many engines.
The claims were proven false and Slick 50 agreed to settle out of court.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/07/slick.htm

If this magnetic fuel conditioner actually worked, the mfg'er could gain
some great PR by proving the EPA wrong. It is also reasonable to assume
the EPA would love to endorse a product that actually increased fuel
efficiency and reduced pollution. It is also reasonable to expect boat
mfg'ers would jump on a very inexpensive product that would allow them
to provide better fuel economy. Everything about this product says scam.

While your retailer might be providing a satisfaction guarantee, the
mfg'er is not as confident about the product as the the retailer.

When the EPA states magnetic fuel conditioners are a scam, it really
isn't in the best interest of a magazine to provide free PR for a
product that the experts believe will not work.

I would have thought you would have avoided this product like the
plague, even if it is being retailed by a local store who does advertise
in your mag.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
:On Jan 30, 9:21???pm, David Scheidt wrote:

:
: The moon is made of green cheese, Chuck. ?That's just as likely as
: these things working. ?The allegedly scientific explanation makes as
: much sense as pointing a wand at your engine, saying "Abra-Cadbra!"
: and expecting your fuel usage to fall. ?Don't take my word for it,
: though. ?See what the FTC has to say:http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm
:
: If they worked, you'd know it. ?They're a scam.

:Certainly very interesting.

:Any comment on the data developed by a CARB certified testing agency
:and linked in a previous post in this thread? ???

Too small a sample size to mean anything, for one thing. I'm not in
the mood to really look at the numbers, but there's substantal
variation in them run to run. That's not necessarily a flaw, but it
does mean that they need more data to show that the changes they
report mean anything. And they don't report some things that would
make a difference in how the engine runs, like the coolant
temperature, or the ambient temperature.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:

I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

Then don't be such a gullible shill.

-rick-

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 9:54�pm, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:26?am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
n.

I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.
If you want to know how effective the mfg'er and the dealer believe
check out the warranty onhttp://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects
and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of
minimum results. ?It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer
testimonials".

According to my contact at this company's local retail dealer, the
devices are being sold with a "satisfaction guarantee". IOW, put one
on, see if it works for you, and if it doesn't you get your money
back. My contact said that his company would not have agreed to carry
the item if it were not for the satsfaction guarantee. Like my, all he
has to go on are a list of satisfied customers and some general
understanding that it *might* work.

As someone else pointed out, according to the EPA, who has tested the
"magnetic fuel conditioners" they do not work and according to the FTC
they are scams, and all consumers should be skeptical of their "consumer
testimonials".

Reminds me of all the "consumer testimonials" provided by Slick 50.
After a few years it was found that Slick 50 actually damaged many engines.
* The claims were proven false and Slick 50 agreed to settle out of court.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 5:17�pm, Ian Malcolm
wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .

All good points. *In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. *This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. *It's the placebo effect.

The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million *dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a *field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch

In all that gabble about ortho and para hydrogen did anyone mention they
are nuclear spin isomers of a H2 molecule? *Para-hydrogen has the spins
in opposite directions, Ortho-hydrogen has the spins in the same
direction. *However Diesel and Gasolene dont contain free Hydrogen
molecules! *It is possible for certain hydrocarbon molecules to have
different spin isomers, but the bigger the molecule, the more readily it
can 'flop' from one state to another and the more similar are the
physical and chemical properties of the many different states. *In any
case, the effects cannot persist for long outside the extremely strong
magnetic field required to noticably influence nuclear spin. By the time
the fuel has left the device, any possible effect is OVER. For a quick
sanity check on the claims, look at the miniscule side effects to the
patient of NMR imaging, in which an intense magnetic field is used to
align the spin of a proportion of the atoms in the patient so their
distribution and element can be determined. *If *any* of the claimed
long term effects on diesel bacteria were true, either *every* patient
would be given NMR treatment instead of antibiotics or NMR would only be
useful for autopsies as it would kill all the patients.

If Chuck wants to perform a useful service, he should perform a
double-blind trial. *He will need a twin engine boat with advanced *fuel
system and engine monitoring. *Ideally the engines would be new,
otherwise they should be the same age and hours and recently serviced.
He will also need two of the 'magnetic devices', some fuel line, 4
bulkhead fittings, 2 identical opaque enclosures large enough to house
the devices and some tamper-proof warrenty labels. *Each enclosure
should be assembled with two bulkhead fittings and a device mounted
inside it. The external appearance *must* be identical. *In one of them
the device should be connected to the fittings, in the other the same
length of fuel line should be used to conect the two fittings bypassing
the device. *Have a *stranger shuffle the two boxes while you are out of
the room and then return and seal the two boxes with the warrenty seals
and label them A and B. *Have boxes A and B fitted in identical sections
of the fuel lines to the port and starboard engines and run the boat
next season. Keep detailed signed records of fuel consumption and all
engine performance data available and which box is on which engine. *At
every service interval, swap boxes A & B. * When you lay the boat up for
the winter, get a witness and open the boxes to determine which of A & B
was the dummy and which was 'active'. *Post the raw results and give us
a link here. *Write an article for the magazine.

I would expect any *genuine* fuel conditioning device manufacturer
(filtration, additives or whatever) to co-operate with a proper double
blind trial conduted by a boating magazine , even to the extent of
providing the two devices free. *I doubt the magnetic widget suppliers
will even let chuck buy a pair if he lets slip he wants to do proper
tests on them. *If Chuck is willing to attempt the trial but finds the
manufacturer un-cooperative, we must assume the devices are pure snake oil.

--
Ian Malcolm. * London, ENGLAND. *(NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's something that might be of interest to many rec.boats old-
timers:

http://www.algae-x.net/Endorsements/.../snake_oil.pdf

What are the odds that the "Denninger" who ran a test (not entirely
dissimilar from what Ian describes above) with a 45-foot Hatteras and
reported the results in a blog called "Snake Oil Chronicles" couldn't
be the Karl Denninger who at one time was a regular poster here?

*If* this were the same Denninger (don't know that it is) would his
detailed report of testing a magnetic fuel conditioner be more
acceptable to the group than comments from an unknown person?

Once again, I would not want to say absolutely that this is the same
person- but it's a rather unusual last name, and the universe of
people named Denninger who are interested in boating and likely to own
a Hatteras or similar quality vessel has to be extremely small. I do
not mean to imply that this person is or absolutely has to be Karl
Denninger, ex-denizen of this newsgroup, and if an apology is in order
for merely wondering whether it might be, I'll extend it in advance.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:

On Jan 30, 5:17�pm, Ian Malcolm
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

All good points. �In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. �This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. �It's the placebo effect.

The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million �dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a �field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch

In all that gabble about ortho and para hydrogen did anyone mention they
are nuclear spin isomers of a H2 molecule? �Para-hydrogen has the spins
in opposite directions, Ortho-hydrogen has the spins in the same
direction. �However Diesel and Gasolene dont contain free Hydrogen
molecules! �It is possible for certain hydrocarbon molecules to have
different spin isomers, but the bigger the molecule, the more readily it
can 'flop' from one state to another and the more similar are the
physical and chemical properties of the many different states. �In any
case, the effects cannot persist for long outside the extremely strong
magnetic field required to noticably influence nuclear spin. By the time
the fuel has left the device, any possible effect is OVER. For a quick
sanity check on the claims, look at the miniscule side effects to the
patient of NMR imaging, in which an intense magnetic field is used to
align the spin of a proportion of the atoms in the patient so their
distribution and element can be determined. �If *any* of the claimed
long term effects on diesel bacteria were true, either *every* patient
would be given NMR treatment instead of antibiotics or NMR would only be
useful for autopsies as it would kill all the patients.

If Chuck wants to perform a useful service, he should perform a
double-blind trial. �He will need a twin engine boat with advanced �fuel
system and engine monitoring. �Ideally the engines would be new,
otherwise they should be the same age and hours and recently serviced.
He will also need two of the 'magnetic devices', some fuel line, 4
bulkhead fittings, 2 identical opaque enclosures large enough to house
the devices and some tamper-proof warrenty labels. �Each enclosure
should be assembled with two bulkhead fittings and a device mounted
inside it. The external appearance *must* be identical. �In one of them
the device should be connected to the fittings, in the other the same
length of fuel line should be used to conect the two fittings bypassing
the device. �Have a �stranger shuffle the two boxes while you are out of
the room and then return and seal the two boxes with the warrenty seals
and label them A and B. �Have boxes A and B fitted in identical sections
of the fuel lines to the port and starboard engines and run the boat
next season. Keep detailed signed records of fuel consumption and all
engine performance data available and which box is on which engine. �At
every service interval, swap boxes A & B. � When you lay the boat up for
the winter, get a witness and open the boxes to determine which of A & B
was the dummy and which was 'active'. �Post the raw results and give us
a link here. �Write an article for the magazine.

I would expect any *genuine* fuel conditioning device manufacturer
(filtration, additives or whatever) to co-operate with a proper double
blind trial conduted by a boating magazine , even to the extent of
providing the two devices free. �I doubt the magnetic widget suppliers
will even let chuck buy a pair if he lets slip he wants to do proper
tests on them. �If Chuck is willing to attempt the trial but finds the
manufacturer un-cooperative, we must assume the devices are pure snake oil.

--
Ian Malcolm. � London, ENGLAND. �(NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Here's something that might be of interest to many rec.boats old-
timers:

http://www.algae-x.net/Endorsements/.../snake_oil.pdf

What are the odds that the "Denninger" who ran a test (not entirely
dissimilar from what Ian describes above) with a 45-foot Hatteras and
reported the results in a blog called "Snake Oil Chronicles" couldn't
be the Karl Denninger who at one time was a regular poster here?

*If* this were the same Denninger (don't know that it is) would his
detailed report of testing a magnetic fuel conditioner be more
acceptable to the group than comments from an unknown person?

Once again, I would not want to say absolutely that this is the same
person- but it's a rather unusual last name, and the universe of
people named Denninger who are interested in boating and likely to own
a Hatteras or similar quality vessel has to be extremely small. I do
not mean to imply that this person is or absolutely has to be Karl
Denninger, ex-denizen of this newsgroup, and if an apology is in order
for merely wondering whether it might be, I'll extend it in advance.


It would seem to be the same Karl. I cant comment on his credibility here.

To be a valid trial, both the boat operator and the experimenter must
have no idea which box contains the active device and which is the dummy
until all the data is in. Otherwise you cant eliminate subconscious
differences in operating habits and fuel system hygiene.

I can think of a number of ways of rigging a test unit that is only
going to be used for a few hours or tens of hours (e.g. a slow
dissolving fuel additive packed into it) to get results in a short
trial. Buying the device retail at a random location would vastly
reduce the risk of such tampering. OTOH its possible that *all* the
devices contain such an additive as the operator is unlikely to
attribute a gradual decline in performance to the device being used up.

Sampling the fuel before and after the device after a couple of hours
running and getting it analysed could eliminate the slow release
additive possibility.

The effect of magnetism on clean bulk fuel seems unlikely to cause
differences in combustion efficiency. Its possible there *IS* a subtle
biological effect to bacteria not seen in larger organisms, such as the
possibility that it may reduce the clumping leading to smaller particles
that can pass the filters and injector and get burnt with the fuel but
my comments on the claim it kills them stand.

If there was a lethal effect on any bacteria, not affecting larger
organisms I would expect that anyone that has been NMR imaged would have
a week or two of severe digestive discomfort and unpleasant symptoms
until a normal population of gut bacteria has been restored. Anyone who
has ever had a course of oral broad spectrum antibiotics will know what
I mean . . .

Since *all* diesel fuel will have been in a steel tank at some time
during the production and supply chain and it is being fed to an engine
fuel system with many steel parts , the requirement that the boat's
tank isn't steel is *interesting*. It does depend on the reason claimed
for its unsuitability for steel tanks. Their main website claims that
the unit will trap particles from corroded steel tanks and that this is
beneficial.

In any case the psuedoscientific 'bafflegab' used to describe its
operation does little to inspire confidence in the product or the
principles behind it.

It would be interesting to dissect one and see what's actually in there!

IMHO the jury is still out but its not looking good for the defendant . . .

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
ntirely
dissimilar from what Ian describes above) with a 45-foot Hatteras and
reported the results in a blog called "Snake Oil Chronicles" couldn't
be the Karl Denninger who at one time was a regular poster here?

*If* this were the same Denninger (don't know that it is) would his
detailed report of testing a magnetic fuel conditioner be more
acceptable to the group than comments from an unknown person?

Once again, I would not want to say absolutely that this is the same
person- but it's a rather unusual last name, and the universe of
people named Denninger who are interested in boating and likely to own
a Hatteras or similar quality vessel has to be extremely small. I do
not mean to imply that this person is or absolutely has to be Karl
Denninger, ex-denizen of this newsgroup, and if an apology is in order
for merely wondering whether it might be, I'll extend it in advance.


Chuck,
Why can't the FTC and EPA duplicate these results? Even more amazing is
if Diesel-Tex DTX is not a scam, why don't they provide the EPA with the
test results, so they can conduct the tests, and the EPA can remove this
product from it's list of useless products? It not only would be good
for business, but it would be good for the environment. Why don't you
ask the mfg'er why he has not provided this independent data to the FTC
and EPA? This would not only be a more interesting article, but also
provide a true service to your readers. I understand that your magazine
relies on advertisement dollars to make money, but the magazine
creditability is what makes your "reviews" worthwhile to the readers.
If they believe your "reviews" are nothing more than unpaid ads, they
will discount all of your "reviews".

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

Chuck,
This boating related post sure has encouraged a lively discussion.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On 30 Jan 2007 22:41:41 -0800, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

Once again, I would not want to say absolutely that this is the same
person- but it's a rather unusual last name, and the universe of
people named Denninger who are interested in boating and likely to own
a Hatteras or similar quality vessel has to be extremely small.

It's the same Karl. He posted about it in this group at the time and
drew quite a bit of flack for his subjective assessment of the
product.

As others have said, if magnetic fuel treatment really worked, the
manufacturers and big fleet operators would be falling all over
themselves to install the product. They are not doing that.

Other than pride of ownership, the most likely reason for some of
these glowing reports is that people upgrade their entire filtration
system and start using a good fuel treatment additive at the same
time that they install the magnet. Those steps *are* proven to be
beneficial.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 31, 4:35�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:

ntirely





dissimilar from what Ian describes above) with a 45-foot Hatteras and
reported the results in a blog called "Snake Oil Chronicles" couldn't
be the Karl Denninger who at one time was a regular poster here?

*If* this were the same Denninger (don't know that it is) would his
detailed report of testing a magnetic fuel conditioner be more
acceptable to the group than comments from an unknown person?

Once again, I would not want to say absolutely that this is the same
person- but it's a rather unusual last name, and the universe of
people named Denninger who are interested in boating and likely to own
a Hatteras or similar quality vessel has to be extremely small. I do
not mean to imply that this person is or absolutely has to be Karl
Denninger, ex-denizen of this newsgroup, and if an apology is in order
for merely wondering whether it might be, I'll extend it in advance.

Chuck,
Why can't the FTC and EPA duplicate these results? *Even more amazing is
if Diesel-Tex DTX is not a scam, why don't they provide the EPA with the
test results, so they can conduct the tests, and the EPA can remove this
product from it's list of useless products? *It not only would be good
for business, but it would be good for the environment. *Why don't you
ask the mfg'er why he has not provided this independent data to the FTC
and EPA? *This would not only be a more interesting article, but also
provide a true service to your readers. *I understand that your magazine
relies on advertisement dollars to make money, but the magazine
creditability is what makes your "reviews" worthwhile to the readers.
If they believe your "reviews" are nothing more than unpaid ads, they
will discount all of your "reviews".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What "review"?

I pose a question regarding whether or not such a device could work,
and explore how it might work if it does.

Hardly a review, and certainly not an endorsement.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 31, 4:38?am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

Chuck,
This boating related post sure has encouraged a lively discussion.

Indeed. And that's not a bad thing at all.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 31, 6:39�am, Wayne.B wrote:
On 30 Jan 2007 22:41:41 -0800, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
Once again, I would not want to say absolutely that this is the same
person- but it's a rather unusual last name, and the universe of
people named Denninger who are interested in boating and likely to own
a Hatteras or similar quality vessel has to be extremely small.

It's the same Karl. *He posted about it in this group at the time and
drew quite a bit of flack for his subjective assessment of the
product.

He tired it out on one of his two engines (each with a dedicated fuel
tank), made careful notes about the engine hours, took photographs of
filter changes, etc. What sort of assessment could he make, based on
his own personal experience, except subjective? Why would it be wrong
to report his personal experience? I remember Karl as a pretty sharp,
analytical sort of guy. Wasn't he a software engineer (or similar) who
started an ISP and got bought out during the dot.bomb craze for
something north of $10mm? I hope he got cash, not stock. Not exactly
some hillbillie who clipped an ad out of National Enquirer, sent away
mail order for a miracle device, and then pronounced it "workin' like
a charm" 30 seconds after installing it.

I'm still not claiming that these devices work, but this is an
interesting discussion.

Two of the reasons advanced so far by folks who claim they cannot work
have been lack of an independent test and no reports from an actual
user known to the group. When an independent test was discovered, it
was dismissed under the premise that if the results supported any
assumption that the devices worked then the sample had to be too small
or the methodology must be flawed. (Another dismissal of the test was
based upon the fact that the "government" didn't conduct it). When an
actual user known to the group was discovered, it was pointed out that
at one time he reported the same results in this NG and had to take
flak over it. I'm not sure how the response from the NG changes the
nature of the results he reported. One needs to accept the results at
face value, find a specific flaw in his methodology, or impugn his
character and motivations. Back in the days of
The Rec.boats Wars of the Eternal Flame, Karl and I probably had some
disagreements but I wouldn't characterize him as dishonest or
deceptive.

I think Karl's experience should be noted as a that of a known person
who has tried magnetic fuel treatment and based on his personal
observations and experiences genuinely believes that it works.

Still doesn't "prove" they work, just a bit of evidence on the side
that they might.




As others have said, if magnetic fuel treatment really worked, the
manufacturers and big fleet operators would be falling all over
themselves to install the product. *They are not doing that.

Other than pride of ownership, the most likely reason for some of
these glowing reports is that people upgrade their entire filtration
system *and start using a good fuel treatment additive at the same
time that they install the magnet. *Those steps *are* proven to be
beneficial. *

I'll go back and look at Karl's site again. I didn't notice that he
had upgraded any portion of his filtration system- but it could well
be that he did and I missed it. I recall seeing photos of two
identical filters- one downstream from a magnetic treatment device and
the other simply downstream from its fuel tank.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 31, 4:35�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:


Chuck,
Why can't the FTC and EPA duplicate these results? *Even more amazing is
if Diesel-Tex DTX is not a scam, why don't they provide the EPA with the
test results, so they can conduct the tests, and the EPA can remove this
product from it's list of useless products?

According to the site your furnished, the EPA has never tested the two
most popular devices used for marine application. Neither of the two
most popular marine devices appear on the FTC's list of "useless
products" in the sub sections where various brands are listed. I don't
think the EPA is likely to accept test results provided by anybody
else as valid. It is interesting to note that at the state level a
laboaratory in California that is certified to conduct testing for
California Air Resource Board compliance purposes measured some
differences in combustion with vs. without a device installed. (And
yes, the lab could have made an error).


�It not only would be good
for business, but it would be good for the environment. *Why don't you
ask the mfg'er why he has not provided this independent data to the FTC
and EPA? *This would not only be a more interesting article, but also
provide a true service to your readers. *I understand that your magazine
relies on advertisement dollars to make money, but the magazine
creditability is what makes your "reviews" worthwhile to the readers.
If they believe your "reviews" are nothing more than unpaid ads, they
will discount all of your "reviews".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 3:31 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message

...



All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.

The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch

Think runnning your diesel fuel line through an MRI machine.