On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:01:12 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

The people that sell these things make specific claims: "Better fuel
economy!", "More power!", "Reduced emissions", etc. Fuel economy,
power production, and tailpipe emissions are all testable by widely
known, well understood, and generally agreed to be useful and valid
methods. Fuel magnets are not a new idea; people have been selling
them for 50 years or more. If they worked, you'd know about it,
because engine manufacturors would include them in their product.
Once one vendor did, everyone else would have to follow suit -- all
things being equal, would you use the engine that is rated for 10%
more fuel use?

All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.

On 30 Jan 2007 10:41:50 -0800, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

On Jan 30, 10:16?am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:


I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.- Hide quoted text -


I think a snake would be diamagnetic. :-)

Chuck, I don't think you are dong the boating community any favor by
giving these devices undeserved publicity.

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:08�am, David Scheidt wrote:

Chuck Gould wrote:

:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No
one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.


I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
indepedent organization.

Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
"unverifiable".

It remains an interesting possibility.

I always remember the gorilla. Until about 100 years ago, the gorilla
was considered to be a myth. Not because hundreds of thousands of
people hadn't seen a gorilla, but because the *right* people (western
scientists) had never seen one. :-)


One could make the same argument about almost anything. Say, a
perpetual motion machine. "until 100 years ago nobody believed in
Gorillas, now they don't believe in my perpetual motion machine"

The explanation you quoted in the first post was pretty much gibberish,
near as I can tell. Magnets creating othohydrogen and killing bacteria?

You don't believe this stuff do you?



--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:31:27 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .

All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.


The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch


Would it make chili taste better? That's the question.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

On Jan 30, 4:31 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message

...



All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.

The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch

I DO know a lot about magnetism and will state that what was posted is
mostly blather unrelated to any possible reason for magnetism to help
diesel burn better.

Chuck,

Good grief, hombre, why even mention this crap on here except to provoke a
response. Not a good thing to do if one wishes to enhance one's
credibility.

Butch
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
ups.com...
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.

Eisboch wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.



The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch


In all that gabble about ortho and para hydrogen did anyone mention they
are nuclear spin isomers of a H2 molecule? Para-hydrogen has the spins
in opposite directions, Ortho-hydrogen has the spins in the same
direction. However Diesel and Gasolene dont contain free Hydrogen
molecules! It is possible for certain hydrocarbon molecules to have
different spin isomers, but the bigger the molecule, the more readily it
can 'flop' from one state to another and the more similar are the
physical and chemical properties of the many different states. In any
case, the effects cannot persist for long outside the extremely strong
magnetic field required to noticably influence nuclear spin. By the time
the fuel has left the device, any possible effect is OVER. For a quick
sanity check on the claims, look at the miniscule side effects to the
patient of NMR imaging, in which an intense magnetic field is used to
align the spin of a proportion of the atoms in the patient so their
distribution and element can be determined. If *any* of the claimed
long term effects on diesel bacteria were true, either *every* patient
would be given NMR treatment instead of antibiotics or NMR would only be
useful for autopsies as it would kill all the patients.

If Chuck wants to perform a useful service, he should perform a
double-blind trial. He will need a twin engine boat with advanced fuel
system and engine monitoring. Ideally the engines would be new,
otherwise they should be the same age and hours and recently serviced.
He will also need two of the 'magnetic devices', some fuel line, 4
bulkhead fittings, 2 identical opaque enclosures large enough to house
the devices and some tamper-proof warrenty labels. Each enclosure
should be assembled with two bulkhead fittings and a device mounted
inside it. The external appearance *must* be identical. In one of them
the device should be connected to the fittings, in the other the same
length of fuel line should be used to conect the two fittings bypassing
the device. Have a stranger shuffle the two boxes while you are out of
the room and then return and seal the two boxes with the warrenty seals
and label them A and B. Have boxes A and B fitted in identical sections
of the fuel lines to the port and starboard engines and run the boat
next season. Keep detailed signed records of fuel consumption and all
engine performance data available and which box is on which engine. At
every service interval, swap boxes A & B. When you lay the boat up for
the winter, get a witness and open the boxes to determine which of A & B
was the dummy and which was 'active'. Post the raw results and give us
a link here. Write an article for the magazine.

I would expect any *genuine* fuel conditioning device manufacturer
(filtration, additives or whatever) to co-operate with a proper double
blind trial conduted by a boating magazine , even to the extent of
providing the two devices free. I doubt the magnetic widget suppliers
will even let chuck buy a pair if he lets slip he wants to do proper
tests on them. If Chuck is willing to attempt the trial but finds the
manufacturer un-cooperative, we must assume the devices are pure snake oil.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

Butch Davis wrote:
Chuck,

Good grief, hombre, why even mention this crap on here except to provoke a
response. Not a good thing to do if one wishes to enhance one's
credibility.

Butch
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
ups.com...
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.



I hope they don't put that article in his magazine, it would hurt the
magazine's creditability much more.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 01:17:44 +0000, Ian Malcolm
wrote:

we must assume the devices are pure snake oil.

Aaayup.

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects
and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of
minimum results. It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer
testimonials".

But if it doesn't actually DO anything then there's nothing to break, is
there? Talk about a perfect scam.

They're bogus, completely. But PT Barnum was right and folks like that
prove him right every day.