Chuck Gould wrote:
:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No
one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.

David Scheidt wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No
one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.

Mirrors, maybe, but not smoke!

They're supposed to reduce the smoke....

DT

On Jan 30, 10:08�am, David Scheidt wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:

:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. *The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. *No
one has done such studies. *Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.

I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
indepedent organization.

Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
"unverifiable".

It remains an interesting possibility.

I always remember the gorilla. Until about 100 years ago, the gorilla
was considered to be a myth. Not because hundreds of thousands of
people hadn't seen a gorilla, but because the *right* people (western
scientists) had never seen one. :-)

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jan 30, 10:08?am, David Scheidt wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:

:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No
one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.

I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
indepedent organization.

Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
"unverifiable".

It remains an interesting possibility.

I always remember the gorilla. Until about 100 years ago, the gorilla
was considered to be a myth. Not because hundreds of thousands of
people hadn't seen a gorilla, but because the *right* people (western
scientists) had never seen one. :-)


What's that saying you use down there...?? * I'm from
Missouri *

Chuck Gould wrote:
:On Jan 30, 10:08???am, David Scheidt wrote:
: Chuck Gould wrote:
:
: :I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
: :a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
: :by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
: :well-known and respected local company representing it as well.
:
: If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
: independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. ?The studies would
: show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
: emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
: improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. ?No
: one has done such studies. ?Instead, what you've got is
: pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
: smoke, and a few mirrors.

:I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
:experience with one.

:You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
ersonal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
:indepedent organization.

The people that sell these things make specific claims: "Better fuel
economy!", "More power!", "Reduced emissions", etc. Fuel economy,
power production, and tailpipe emissions are all testable by widely
known, well understood, and generally agreed to be useful and valid
methods. Fuel magnets are not a new idea; people have been selling
them for 50 years or more. If they worked, you'd know about it,
because engine manufacturors would include them in their product.
Once one vendor did, everyone else would have to follow suit -- all
things being equal, would you use the engine that is rated for 10%
more fuel use?

I don't believe they work, because I know enough physics to understand
that the claims people make are equivalant to claiming the moon is
made of green cheese.

:Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
:that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
:needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
:than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
:some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
:convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
:sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
:"unverifiable".

So you ask someone, who's just spent a silly amount of money having
one of these things installed, whether it works. Of course they're
going to say it does. To say it doesn't, would mean admiting that
they'd been taken in on the scam. People don't like to admit they've
made mistakes that cost them money.


David

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:01:12 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

The people that sell these things make specific claims: "Better fuel
economy!", "More power!", "Reduced emissions", etc. Fuel economy,
power production, and tailpipe emissions are all testable by widely
known, well understood, and generally agreed to be useful and valid
methods. Fuel magnets are not a new idea; people have been selling
them for 50 years or more. If they worked, you'd know about it,
because engine manufacturors would include them in their product.
Once one vendor did, everyone else would have to follow suit -- all
things being equal, would you use the engine that is rated for 10%
more fuel use?

All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.

On Jan 30, 11:01�am, David Scheidt wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:

:On Jan 30, 10:08???am, David Scheidt wrote:
: Chuck Gould wrote:
:
: :I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
: :a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
: :by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
: :well-known and respected local company representing it as well.
:
: If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
: independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. ?The studies would
: show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
: emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
: improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. ?No
: one has done such studies. ?Instead, what you've got is
: pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
: smoke, and a few mirrors.

:I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
:experience with one.

:You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
ersonal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
:indepedent organization.

The people that sell these things make specific claims: "Better fuel
economy!", "More power!", "Reduced emissions", etc. *Fuel economy,
power production, and tailpipe emissions are all testable by widely
known, well understood, and generally agreed to be useful and valid
methods. *Fuel magnets are not a new idea; people have been selling
them for 50 years or more. *If they worked, you'd know about it,
because engine manufacturors would include them in their product.
Once one vendor did, everyone else would have to follow suit -- all
things being equal, would you use the engine that is rated for 10%
more fuel use? *

I don't believe they work, because I know enough physics to understand
that the claims people make are equivalant to claiming the moon is
made of green cheese.

:Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
:that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
:needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
:than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
:some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
:convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
:sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
:"unverifiable".

So you ask someone, who's just spent a silly amount of money having
one of these things installed, whether it works. *Of course they're
going to say it does. *To say it doesn't, would mean admiting that
they'd been taken in on the scam. *People don't like to admit they've
made mistakes that cost them money. *

David

How would an acceptable test from an independent organization differ
from
this data, compiled by a company certified by the California Air
Resouce Board?

http://www.diesel-fuels.com/pdf/lgx-test.pdf


Please understand, I'm not defending the data or insisting that these
devices work, simply wondering what the standard for an independent
test would be?

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 30, 10:08�am, David Scheidt wrote:

Chuck Gould wrote:

:I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
:a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
:by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
:well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

If these things worked, the people who sell them would commission real
independent testing labs to do well-designed studies. The studies would
show if they work or not, in terms of reduced fuel consumption, lowered
emissions, increased power, reduced contamination in the fuel,
improved sex life, or whatever else they're claiming this week. No
one has done such studies. Instead, what you've got is
pseudo-scientific techno-babble, unverifiable anecdotal claims,
smoke, and a few mirrors.


I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

You seem to feel that they cannot work, apparently also without
personal experience but based upon the lack of a test from an
indepedent organization.

Personally, if I were using one and noticed a difference I would feel
that my direct personal experience was all the proof I personally
needed. But that's just me, and other people would require more proof
than personal experience. Even so, I'm half tempted to call or email
some of those indiviuals on the website and see if they are *still*
convinced that there's some benefit to their magnetic fuel treatment
sytems. But you're right, even their anecdotal claims are
"unverifiable".

It remains an interesting possibility.

I always remember the gorilla. Until about 100 years ago, the gorilla
was considered to be a myth. Not because hundreds of thousands of
people hadn't seen a gorilla, but because the *right* people (western
scientists) had never seen one. :-)


One could make the same argument about almost anything. Say, a
perpetual motion machine. "until 100 years ago nobody believed in
Gorillas, now they don't believe in my perpetual motion machine"

The explanation you quoted in the first post was pretty much gibberish,
near as I can tell. Magnets creating othohydrogen and killing bacteria?

You don't believe this stuff do you?



--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

Chuck Gould wrote:

I don't claim that they do or do not work, as I have no personal
experience with one.

Then don't be such a gullible shill.

-rick-