Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 6:32 pm, "Frogwatch" wrote:
On Jan 30, 4:31 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:





"Wayne.B" wrote in message

.. .

All good points. In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. It's the placebo effect.

The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch

I DO know a lot about magnetism and will state that what was posted is
mostly blather unrelated to any possible reason for magnetism to help
diesel burn better.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, but if you believe that it makes diesel fuel burn better, isn't
the diesel
fuel burn better?

It's kind of a Quantum Zen thing - if one believes it to be true, then
it must be
true regardless of evidence to the contrary because it is true to you.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On Jan 30, 6:42 pm, "Butch Davis" wrote:
Chuck,

Good grief, hombre, why even mention this crap on here except to provoke a
response. Not a good thing to do if one wishes to enhance one's
credibility.

It's typical pseudo-scientific pablum which intrigues certain types of
individuals - big words that they think have a presence of authority
and a sense of "well, it could be" ignoring the high energy physics
required to actually accomplish the desired effect.

One is reminded of the arthritis fad of a few years ago - magnetic
bracelets and vests with magnets in them to decrease back pain.
All the rage because "they worked" - complete with testimonials.

Worked until something better came along.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 31, 4:38?am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.
Chuck,
This boating related post sure has encouraged a lively discussion.

Indeed. And that's not a bad thing at all.

I couldn't agree more.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 31, 4:35�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Chuck,
Why can't the FTC and EPA duplicate these results? �Even more amazing is
if Diesel-Tex DTX is not a scam, why don't they provide the EPA with the
test results, so they can conduct the tests, and the EPA can remove this
product from it's list of useless products?

According to the site your furnished, the EPA has never tested the two
most popular devices used for marine application. Neither of the two
most popular marine devices appear on the FTC's list of "useless
products" in the sub sections where various brands are listed. I don't
think the EPA is likely to accept test results provided by anybody
else as valid. It is interesting to note that at the state level a
laboaratory in California that is certified to conduct testing for
California Air Resource Board compliance purposes measured some
differences in combustion with vs. without a device installed. (And
yes, the lab could have made an error).


�It not only would be good
for business, but it would be good for the environment. �Why don't you
ask the mfg'er why he has not provided this independent data to the FTC
and EPA? �This would not only be a more interesting article, but also
provide a true service to your readers. �I understand that your magazine
relies on advertisement dollars to make money, but the magazine
creditability is what makes your "reviews" worthwhile to the readers.
If they believe your "reviews" are nothing more than unpaid ads, they
will discount all of your "reviews".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



Why hasn't the mfg'er request a testing by the EPA? This is almost as
good as a perpetual motion machine. ;) Trust me, if it works, the EPA
will want to endorse it as another method to reduce pollution and
decrease consumption.

As an X saleman, wouldn't you think this product would be as easy as
selling sliced bread, if it worked?

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:

:else as valid. It is interesting to note that at the state level a
:laboaratory in California that is certified to conduct testing for
:California Air Resource Board compliance purposes measured some
:differences in combustion with vs. without a device installed. (And
:yes, the lab could have made an error).

CARB compliance means that it doesn't increase emissions, not that it
improves them. That's the only thing you can conclude from the study.
There's not enough data to draw a stronger conclusion. You don't know
what the normal variance in exhaust emissions for that engine is.
That can be surprisingly large, particularly since they're not
controling for engine operating temperature.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

On 31 Jan 2007 08:07:59 -0800, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

He tired it out on one of his two engines (each with a dedicated fuel
tank), made careful notes about the engine hours, took photographs of
filter changes, etc. What sort of assessment could he make, based on
his own personal experience, except subjective? Why would it be wrong
to report his personal experience? I remember Karl as a pretty sharp,
analytical sort of guy. Wasn't he a software engineer (or similar) who
started an ISP and got bought out during the dot.bomb craze for
something north of $10mm? I hope he got cash, not stock. Not exactly
some hillbillie who clipped an ad out of National Enquirer, sent away
mail order for a miracle device, and then pronounced it "workin' like
a charm" 30 seconds after installing it.

No question Karl was (is) an intelligent guy who knew a few things
about diesels but that was not his primary forte, nor was molecular
biology or nuclear magnetics. In all fairness, they are not my
profession either.

Fact is though, Karl's observation is only one data point in a very
non-quantative analysis, not exactly the sort of thing that great
science is made of. I'm sure he knows what he saw but given the lack
of controls, lack of independant repeated results and lack of
measurable data, there is nothing there to hang your hat on.

On the other hand there are lots and lots of well funded people who
can, and probably have, done a well thought out analysis. Other than
the FTC there is no incentive for them to report negative results,
only potential lawsuits. If they had gotten positive results
however, you can bet that these things would be on every commercial
diesel vehicle in the country. As far as I know, virtually no one is
doing that.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On 31 Jan 2007 08:07:59 -0800, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

He tired it out on one of his two engines (each with a dedicated fuel
tank), made careful notes about the engine hours, took photographs of
filter changes, etc. What sort of assessment could he make, based on
his own personal experience, except subjective? Why would it be wrong
to report his personal experience? I remember Karl as a pretty sharp,
analytical sort of guy. Wasn't he a software engineer (or similar) who
started an ISP and got bought out during the dot.bomb craze for
something north of $10mm? I hope he got cash, not stock. Not exactly
some hillbillie who clipped an ad out of National Enquirer, sent away
mail order for a miracle device, and then pronounced it "workin' like
a charm" 30 seconds after installing it.

No question Karl was (is) an intelligent guy who knew a few things
about diesels but that was not his primary forte, nor was molecular
biology or nuclear magnetics. In all fairness, they are not my
profession either.

Fact is though, Karl's observation is only one data point in a very
non-quantative analysis, not exactly the sort of thing that great
science is made of. I'm sure he knows what he saw but given the lack
of controls, lack of independant repeated results and lack of
measurable data, there is nothing there to hang your hat on.

On the other hand there are lots and lots of well funded people who
can, and probably have, done a well thought out analysis. Other than
the FTC there is no incentive for them to report negative results,
only potential lawsuits. If they had gotten positive results
however, you can bet that these things would be on every commercial
diesel vehicle in the country. As far as I know, virtually no one is
doing that.


A large fleet could save millions each year if this product actually
worked. Once one fleet installed it, it would be included in the
"testimonials" instead of some individuals who purchased the product at
local boat or auto show. We would also expect all other fleet to
quickly follow suite.

It seems so simple, I can not figure out why anyone would believe in
thier claims. That being said, the "Split Fire" sparkplugs have been
around for years, and they have been proven to be a waste of money.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/05/c3737cmp.htm,

So I guess it is reasonable to expect people to buy useless products,
and their will always be someone there to sell it to them.

Wayne, I wonder if Chuck is being swayed by this logic.

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Jan 30, 5:17�pm, Ian Malcolm
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

All good points. �In addition the US government would surely have
discovered these magical powers by now and specified them for use on
the extensive fleet of military diesels. �This has not happened.

Meanwhile, the people who have shelled out their hard earned cash for
these gadgets have an emotional commitment to believing that they
spent the money wisely. �It's the placebo effect.

The History Channel's "Modern Marvels" recently aired a show on magnetic
forces.
In it, the properties of diamagnetic materials (usually considered
"non-magnetic" and of organic origins) were demonstrated.

Although very weak, they do have magnetic properties, when subjected to a
custom, multi-million �dollar, cryogenically cooled, high powered "super
magnet" with a �field density of a million times that of the earth's.

So, although the physics may have a remote link to accuracy, I rather doubt
a passive device the size of a salt shaker and available on the Internet
would have any measurable effect.

Eisboch

In all that gabble about ortho and para hydrogen did anyone mention they
are nuclear spin isomers of a H2 molecule? �Para-hydrogen has the spins
in opposite directions, Ortho-hydrogen has the spins in the same
direction. �However Diesel and Gasolene dont contain free Hydrogen
molecules! �It is possible for certain hydrocarbon molecules to have
different spin isomers, but the bigger the molecule, the more readily it
can 'flop' from one state to another and the more similar are the
physical and chemical properties of the many different states. �In any
case, the effects cannot persist for long outside the extremely strong
magnetic field required to noticably influence nuclear spin. By the time
the fuel has left the device, any possible effect is OVER. For a quick
sanity check on the claims, look at the miniscule side effects to the
patient of NMR imaging, in which an intense magnetic field is used to
align the spin of a proportion of the atoms in the patient so their
distribution and element can be determined. �If *any* of the claimed
long term effects on diesel bacteria were true, either *every* patient
would be given NMR treatment instead of antibiotics or NMR would only be
useful for autopsies as it would kill all the patients.

If Chuck wants to perform a useful service, he should perform a
double-blind trial. �He will need a twin engine boat with advanced �fuel
system and engine monitoring. �Ideally the engines would be new,
otherwise they should be the same age and hours and recently serviced.
He will also need two of the 'magnetic devices', some fuel line, 4
bulkhead fittings, 2 identical opaque enclosures large enough to house
the devices and some tamper-proof warrenty labels. �Each enclosure
should be assembled with two bulkhead fittings and a device mounted
inside it. The external appearance *must* be identical. �In one of them
the device should be connected to the fittings, in the other the same
length of fuel line should be used to conect the two fittings bypassing
the device. �Have a �stranger shuffle the two boxes while you are out of
the room and then return and seal the two boxes with the warrenty seals
and label them A and B. �Have boxes A and B fitted in identical sections
of the fuel lines to the port and starboard engines and run the boat
next season. Keep detailed signed records of fuel consumption and all
engine performance data available and which box is on which engine. �At
every service interval, swap boxes A & B. � When you lay the boat up for
the winter, get a witness and open the boxes to determine which of A & B
was the dummy and which was 'active'. �Post the raw results and give us
a link here. �Write an article for the magazine.

I would expect any *genuine* fuel conditioning device manufacturer
(filtration, additives or whatever) to co-operate with a proper double
blind trial conduted by a boating magazine , even to the extent of
providing the two devices free. �I doubt the magnetic widget suppliers
will even let chuck buy a pair if he lets slip he wants to do proper
tests on them. �If Chuck is willing to attempt the trial but finds the
manufacturer un-cooperative, we must assume the devices are pure snake oil.

--
Ian Malcolm. � London, ENGLAND. �(NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Here's something that might be of interest to many rec.boats old-
timers:

http://www.algae-x.net/Endorsements/.../snake_oil.pdf

What are the odds that the "Denninger" who ran a test (not entirely
dissimilar from what Ian describes above) with a 45-foot Hatteras and
reported the results in a blog called "Snake Oil Chronicles" couldn't
be the Karl Denninger who at one time was a regular poster here?

*If* this were the same Denninger (don't know that it is) would his
detailed report of testing a magnetic fuel conditioner be more
acceptable to the group than comments from an unknown person?

Once again, I would not want to say absolutely that this is the same
person- but it's a rather unusual last name, and the universe of
people named Denninger who are interested in boating and likely to own
a Hatteras or similar quality vessel has to be extremely small. I do
not mean to imply that this person is or absolutely has to be Karl
Denninger, ex-denizen of this newsgroup, and if an apology is in order
for merely wondering whether it might be, I'll extend it in advance.



The test sorta read like Karl use to write. He was always pretty careful
when he would get into this sorts thing.

Capt Jack R..

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
ups.com...
I was inspired to do some research on this subject after encountering
a fellow selling these things at the local boat show. What attracted
by attention wasn't the guy from Florida peddling the devices, but a
well-known and respected local company representing it as well.

I would not go so far as to say that these things work, but it may not
be beyond the
realm of possibility and if they do work the following item attempts
to explain why.
There are a lot of references available on this, by the way. Key
search terms would include
"diamagnetic", "orthodydrogen", "parahydrogen", and "ferromagnetic"
and "paramagnetic".

*******

Can a Fuel Magnet be an Attractive Device?

The concept almost defies common sense. "Run your diesel fuel over a
magnetic conditioner en route to the engine, and it will burn cleaner
and more efficiently."

Skeptics can be easily forgiven for observing, "I can dip a magnet
into diesel fuel and not even one drop is going to stick to the
magnet, so how can anybody make a case that diesel fuel is affected by
magnetism?"

We happened across a display at the recent boat show, where at device
known as the Diesel-Tex DTX diesel fuel conditioner was being
demonstrated by the manufacturer. We noticed that the product is sold
in the Pacific NW by [deleted for newsgroup], and as they're a
respectable firm with a very good reputation we assumed there must be
some merit to the concept of magnetically conditioning diesel fuel.

After spending an evening researching the idea on the internet, we
discovered some interesting basics about magnetism and fuel that may
allow a credible case to be made for a concept that sounds, on the
surface, like a snake-oil pitch.

We found hundreds of references confirming that nearly all materials
are affected by magnetic fields. The reactions to exposure to a
magnetic field can be categorized as diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and
ferromagnetic. Every schoolchild is familiar with ferromagnetic
reaction, and has experimented with attracting steel and iron objects
to a bar or electro magnet. Ferro magnetic materials are highly
susceptible to a magnetic field, and can even become permanently
"magnetized" once the original magnetic field has been removed.

Simply because we cannot see diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions
doesn't mean they aren't equally real. (I've never personally seen
"electricity", but I have to believe it exists). The differences
between diamagnetic and paramagnetic reactions consist primarily of
how the magnetic field affects the electrons in an atom.

As an electron rotates around the nucleus of an atom, it creates a
magnetic field.
Electrons most frequently occur in pairs, and rotate in opposite
directions. The opposite rotations create two opposing magnetic fields
that cancel one another out, so most materials have net magnetic field
of zero. Magnetic fields will realign the electron orbits of any
element. Diamagnetic materials have all electrons in pairs and react
negatively to a magnetic field. Paramagnetic materials have some
electrons that are not offset by an opposing half of a pair, and react
positively to a magnetic field. The key concept to appreciate is that
virtually every element on the periodic table will react either
positively or negatively to a magnetic field, even if we don't see a
dramatic attraction like we expect with ferromagnetism.

Diesel oil is a hydrocarbon that is about 84% carbon and 16% hydrogen
by respective weight. Even though the hydrogen is only 16% of the
hydrocarbon molecule, it produces about 45% of the thermal energy
extracted by combustion. Common hydrogen separates into parahydrogen
and orthohydrogen when subjected to any electrical influence or
magnetic field that will realign the orbits of its electrons.
Orthohydrogen is more reactive than parahydrogen and is able to
attract additional oxygen molecules.

The theory of magnetic diesel fuel treatment states that exposing the
diesel fuel to the magnetic field will increase the ratio of
orthohydrogen atoms that can be additionally oxygenized to promote
more complete combustion, extraction of energy, and a reduction in
unburned fuel molecules in the exhaust.

An additionally claimed benefit of magnetic diesel fuel treatment is
the elimination of microbial organisms from the fuel. This is
apparently accomplished by disrupting the balance between the positive
and negative electrical charges found within and immediately
surrounding each cell, resulting in perforating the cellular membrane
and killing the organism.

Do magnetic fuel conditioners work? We aren't in a position to state
from personal experience that they absolutely do or do not, but
growing numbers of boaters are reporting positive results from the
installation of Diesel-Tex diesel fuel conditioners. Cleaner transoms,
less exhaust smoke, and better engine performance are frequently
mentioned in testimonial letters on the Diesel-Tex website,
(www.dieseltex.com). Most testimonial letters appearing in marketing
campaigns are printed with initials instead of signatures, but the
letters on the Diesel-Tex site tend to offer the full name, address,
phone number, and email address of the person offering to share their
personal experience. That fact tends to inspire some credibility, and
if our evening's research has led us to the right conclusion there is
no reason to believe that magnetism cannot affect diesel fuel or that
such effects could not include modifying parahydrogen to the more
combustible orthohydrogen.

I remember about 35 years ago there was a device on the market call a
Hydro-Catalyst, I believe. It consisted of 2 or 4 wire mesh cones,
depending on the carburetor, mounted to a gasket. This device was installed
between the carb and intake manifold. There claim was 20~30% increase if
fuel economy.

Sounds like this magnetic device would work just about as well as the
Hydro-Catalyst,

Magnetic fuel conditioners.....
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:

On Jan 30, 10:26�am, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
n.



I would be willing to bet it can be used as a snake oil.

If you want to know how effective the mfg'er and the dealer believe
check out the warranty
onhttp://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page462.html

"Dieseltx carries a "LIFETIME" warranty against manufacturing defects
and workmanship, does not cover improper installation or it's results. "

If Dieseltx really believe it worked, they would provide some kind of
minimum results. �It reminds me of all snake oils and their "customer
testimonials".


According to my contact at this company's local retail dealer, the
devices are being sold with a "satisfaction guarantee". IOW, put one
on, see if it works for you, and if it doesn't you get your money
back. My contact said that his company would not have agreed to carry
the item if it were not for the satsfaction guarantee. Like my, all he
has to go on are a list of satisfied customers and some general
understanding that it *might* work.


As someone else pointed out, according to the EPA, who has tested the
"magnetic fuel conditioners" they do not work and according to the FTC
they are scams, and all consumers should be skeptical of their "consumer
testimonials".

Reminds me of all the "consumer testimonials" provided by Slick 50.
After a few years it was found that Slick 50 actually damaged many engines.
The claims were proven false and Slick 50 agreed to settle out of court.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/07/slick.htm

If this magnetic fuel conditioner actually worked, the mfg'er could gain
some great PR by proving the EPA wrong.


If the actually worked the auto manuf. would be all over it to improve
their CAFE requirements.


It is also reasonable to assume
the EPA would love to endorse a product that actually increased fuel
efficiency and reduced pollution. It is also reasonable to expect boat
mfg'ers would jump on a very inexpensive product that would allow them
to provide better fuel economy. Everything about this product says scam.

While your retailer might be providing a satisfaction guarantee, the
mfg'er is not as confident about the product as the the retailer.

When the EPA states magnetic fuel conditioners are a scam, it really
isn't in the best interest of a magazine to provide free PR for a
product that the experts believe will not work.

I would have thought you would have avoided this product like the
plague, even if it is being retailed by a local store who does advertise
in your mag.