Preventing Dismasting
 

I have been reading a lot of articles about peple that got caught in bad
weather. Some of them lose their masts and some don't. Obviously getting
Dismasted is pretty bad so I was wondering about peoples opinions undere
severe conditions. I am new to sailing so i am still learning here.

The conditions I am thinking are that if you have a good strong heavy boat
made well for blue water cruising and get caught in heavy wind and seas that
may pose a threat to tearing your boat apart what do you do reccommend doing?
Lets say that the sails have been reefed to as small as possible and it is
still to hard to hold onto the rudder and keep her sailing. I have read, and
heard, that most boat are better at sailing than the people sailing them,
meaning that many people fight the rudder and try to sail in a particular
diretion when you can try to sail as much into the wind as possible and fight
the rudder less so that you don't snap a rudder cable. Should you try and
let the boat lead in really rough weather or is that just not possible?
Would it be a good idea to drop all sails, put out a sea anchor and go below
waiting it out? What are the potential problems here?

I want to assume that all safety gear is on board in working order and in use.
Also that you are not close enough to land to have to worry about running
aground, say 500NM out. This would also mean that you waould have no way of
sailing in before the storm hits to ride out the waether on land.

Thanks,
Bill

--
Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com

Preventing Dismasting
 

Remove the mainsail from the boom and run before it with bare poles or storm
jib.

Certain offshore racing classes are required to carry storm sails. A trisail
for the boom and storm jib for forward. In this case its much less sail than
a fully reefed boat. The Main is removed for the trisail to be added.
http://www.mdschool.com/Photos99/108/BDA99/Trisail.jpg

Older long keel designs would self tender somewhat. Certainly not more
modern fin keel designs so you will need a sea anchor to assist control. But
you should be able to go below once you have the helm lashed, anchor out at
the correct distance etc.

DP
"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6bfedf6757156@uwe...
I have been reading a lot of articles about peple that got caught in bad
weather. Some of them lose their masts and some don't. Obviously getting
Dismasted is pretty bad so I was wondering about peoples opinions undere
severe conditions. I am new to sailing so i am still learning here.

The conditions I am thinking are that if you have a good strong heavy boat
made well for blue water cruising and get caught in heavy wind and seas
that
may pose a threat to tearing your boat apart what do you do reccommend
doing?
Lets say that the sails have been reefed to as small as possible and it is
still to hard to hold onto the rudder and keep her sailing. I have read,
and
heard, that most boat are better at sailing than the people sailing them,
meaning that many people fight the rudder and try to sail in a particular
diretion when you can try to sail as much into the wind as possible and
fight
the rudder less so that you don't snap a rudder cable. Should you try and
let the boat lead in really rough weather or is that just not possible?
Would it be a good idea to drop all sails, put out a sea anchor and go
below
waiting it out? What are the potential problems here?

I want to assume that all safety gear is on board in working order and in
use.
Also that you are not close enough to land to have to worry about running
aground, say 500NM out. This would also mean that you waould have no way
of
sailing in before the storm hits to ride out the waether on land.

Thanks,
Bill

--
Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com

Preventing Dismasting
 

The answer you want is not simple but I'll give it a shot. First of all,
unless the boat is in absolutely terrible shape, wind alone will not dismast
you. It may knock you down until the spreaders are in the water but that's
about it.

Most dismasting occurs due to wave action. There are two scenarios, first
if you are surfing downwind too fast you can bury the bow in the back of a
wave and somersault. This is known as "pitchpoling". Not a good idea and
many boats would not survive this punishment. Second, if the seas are
breaking and you broach or are lying ahull and conditions worsen. A
breaking sea on the beam can cause a rollover. It's problematic if the
sticks stay or break.

As to what to do in these conditions, there are as many forms of advice as
their are sailors. It is important to understand that you will probably
never, ever, encounter what are called survival conditions. I have been in
squall lines with 50 plus knots. The boat does better than I do. I've also
had entire trips of a few hundred miles with 30+ knots. The boat did fine
with a reefed main and staysail.

There is a video I would recommend. "Sailing in Heavy Weather" it is just
one of the series of videos that are part of the Annapolis Book of
Seamanship Videos. There is not only some good advice but some pretty good
footage off the coast of California.

Hope this helps,

Rich

s/v Drifter
Tarpon Springs, FL
"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6bfedf6757156@uwe...
I have been reading a lot of articles about peple that got caught in bad
weather. Some of them lose their masts and some don't. Obviously getting
Dismasted is pretty bad so I was wondering about peoples opinions undere
severe conditions. I am new to sailing so i am still learning here.

The conditions I am thinking are that if you have a good strong heavy boat
made well for blue water cruising and get caught in heavy wind and seas
that
may pose a threat to tearing your boat apart what do you do reccommend
doing?
Lets say that the sails have been reefed to as small as possible and it is
still to hard to hold onto the rudder and keep her sailing. I have read,
and
heard, that most boat are better at sailing than the people sailing them,
meaning that many people fight the rudder and try to sail in a particular
diretion when you can try to sail as much into the wind as possible and
fight
the rudder less so that you don't snap a rudder cable. Should you try and
let the boat lead in really rough weather or is that just not possible?
Would it be a good idea to drop all sails, put out a sea anchor and go
below
waiting it out? What are the potential problems here?

I want to assume that all safety gear is on board in working order and in
use.
Also that you are not close enough to land to have to worry about running
aground, say 500NM out. This would also mean that you waould have no way
of
sailing in before the storm hits to ride out the waether on land.

Thanks,
Bill

--
Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com

Preventing Dismasting
 

There is a video I would recommend. "Sailing in Heavy Weather" it is just
one of the series of videos that are part of the Annapolis Book of
Seamanship Videos. There is not only some good advice but some pretty good
footage off the coast of California.

Thanks. I'll look into those videos. I saw that they have a lot of videos in
the series to go through so maybe I'll start adding them to my collection. I
already have the Annapolis guide to seamanship in my collection of sailing
books. I haven't read much of it yet because I got a huge stack of really
good books for X-Mas that I am slowly working through.

Bill

--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...iling/200701/1

Preventing Dismasting
 

Read this book
http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Weather-.../dp/0071353232

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c00a904f9f81@uwe...
There is a video I would recommend. "Sailing in Heavy Weather" it is
just
one of the series of videos that are part of the Annapolis Book of
Seamanship Videos. There is not only some good advice but some pretty
good
footage off the coast of California.

Thanks. I'll look into those videos. I saw that they have a lot of videos
in
the series to go through so maybe I'll start adding them to my collection.
I
already have the Annapolis guide to seamanship in my collection of sailing
books. I haven't read much of it yet because I got a huge stack of really
good books for X-Mas that I am slowly working through.

Bill

--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.asp...iling/200701/1

Preventing Dismasting
 

"Rich Schultz" wrote in message
. ..


snip

As to what to do in these conditions, there are as many forms of advice as
their are sailors. It is important to understand that you will probably
never, ever, encounter what are called survival conditions. I have been
in
squall lines with 50 plus knots. The boat does better than I do.
snip

Rich


That's a really good point Rich. In many cases the boat is just fine.
However the crew, through fear, are the ones who don't weather the storm. No
pun intended. Fear is natural. I have been scared for my life at sea only to
find that the boat was more than capable of handling the conditions. There
are well documented cases of people abandoning their boats only have the
boat found, at a later date, in a somewhat messy but seaworthy condition.

Farringtons "rescue in the pacific" has a couple of cases that are somewhat
questionable.
http://books.buyaustralian.com/featu...d=00 70486190

Its not for me to point any blame at the crews of a couple of these yachts.
Bbut its certainly worth the read to see just what happens to the human
psyche in extreme conditions.

Although a lot of "hollywood" was involved, you may remember the Perfect
Storm movie had a similar case, where the inexperienced crew panicked and
put in a mayday while the old salt skipper was more than comfortable in
those conditions. It would be good to know the truth about that scenario.

DP

Preventing Dismasting
 

That's a really good point Rich. In many cases the boat is just fine.
However the crew, through fear, are the ones who don't weather the storm. No
pun intended. Fear is natural. I have been scared for my life at sea only to
find that the boat was more than capable of handling the conditions. There
are well documented cases of people abandoning their boats only have the
boat found, at a later date, in a somewhat messy but seaworthy condition.

I read somewhere (sorry I can't remember where) that nearly half of all boats
that are abandoned in a storm are found later floating and in some kind of
working order. They were saying that the danger of abandoning the boat was
far greater than the danger of staying on board in at least half of those
conditions. One story I read the boat was taking on water and heeling so
much that the bilge pump wouldn't pump out any water. It was about three
feet deep in the cabin. The boat was found later with the pump running on
batteries after a week or so and no water inside to speak of. The
investigation says that the captain trying to steer the boat in such heavy
winds caused it to heel so muh and caused most of the problems they were
having. Jumping ino the ocean during a storm to be rescued was much more
dangerous than staying on a boat that was floating around for over a week
with no problems that would be life threatening. I am really curious as to
what they could have done differently. It seems that the people that trust
thier boat and thier ability to survive tend to do so much more than those
that can't handle the ride.

--
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Preventing Dismasting
 

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c0106ae25519@uwe...
That's a really good point Rich. In many cases the boat is just fine.
However the crew, through fear, are the ones who don't weather the storm.
No
pun intended. Fear is natural. I have been scared for my life at sea only
to
find that the boat was more than capable of handling the conditions. There
are well documented cases of people abandoning their boats only have the
boat found, at a later date, in a somewhat messy but seaworthy condition.

I read somewhere (sorry I can't remember where) that nearly half of all
boats
that are abandoned in a storm are found later floating and in some kind of
working order. They were saying that the danger of abandoning the boat
was
far greater than the danger of staying on board in at least half of those
conditions. One story I read the boat was taking on water and heeling so
much that the bilge pump wouldn't pump out any water. It was about three
feet deep in the cabin. The boat was found later with the pump running on
batteries after a week or so and no water inside to speak of. The
investigation says that the captain trying to steer the boat in such heavy
winds caused it to heel so muh and caused most of the problems they were
having. Jumping ino the ocean during a storm to be rescued was much more
dangerous than staying on a boat that was floating around for over a week
with no problems that would be life threatening. I am really curious as
to
what they could have done differently. It seems that the people that
trust
thier boat and thier ability to survive tend to do so much more than those
that can't handle the ride.

There is an old saying that "you always step up into a liferaft" . In
otherwords dont get off the boat untill you are sure its going down. The
term "liferaft" conjours up some romantic belief that all will be well once
you get in. Far from it. They can capsize. Sea sickness can set in much
faster. They are harder to spot from the air. They are a smaller target to
fire a heaving line too. Items ( like the grab bag) are more easily lost
overboard. The list goes on. Using the liferaft is the "last" thing a
skipper should consider.

On a side note. Always make sure your grab back is bouyant. For instance
water bottles should not be full and should have lanyards. Then they will
float and not sink if lost overboard.

Its hard to comment on your story of the foundering yacht without more info.
But it makes sense that if the boat is heeling too far the pumps may not
work. Buckets. although more tiring, are far more effecient than manual
bilge pumps. Electric pumps are great if you still have power.

DP

Preventing Dismasting
 

There is an old saying that "you always step up into a liferaft" . In
otherwords dont get off the boat untill you are sure its going down.

In this case the Coast Gaurd had ordered them off the boat but they had made
a mayday call and had no idea what to do.

term "liferaft" conjours up some romantic belief that all will be well once
you get in. Far from it. They can capsize. Sea sickness can set in much
faster. They are harder to spot from the air. They are a smaller target to
fire a heaving line too. Items ( like the grab bag) are more easily lost
overboard. The list goes on. Using the liferaft is the "last" thing a
skipper should consider.

They got lucky. The skippers son was a competative swimmer at the time and
was the only one able to make it to the life and get in unaided. Everyone
else needed help from him getting in. They would have all drowned if it
wasn't for him.

On a side note. Always make sure your grab back is bouyant. For instance
water bottles should not be full and should have lanyards. Then they will
float and not sink if lost overboard.

Excellent idea. Do they make them with floats in them or other means to keep
them afloat or do you have to make sure of that yourself after you equip it?

Its hard to comment on your story of the foundering yacht without more info.
But it makes sense that if the boat is heeling too far the pumps may not
work. Buckets. although more tiring, are far more effecient than manual
bilge pumps. Electric pumps are great if you still have power.

They had power that lasted another week but their hull was leaking at the
seal between the deck and the side. I don't think the boat was capable of
the trip but even so it mannaged to survive even after they jumped off.

Needless to say, before I attempt a real blue water trip I will need to know
what the boat can handle and how to trust in that.

Does anyone recommend taking your boat out in bad weather on purpose, locally,
in order to test the boat and your abilities? I know there are classes in
this but if you are capable and experienced, do you go out to test the boat
and check for leaks and such with prior notification to CG or anything like
that? It seems like a lot of problems could be fixed before someone sets out
for a longer voyage if they have been through it on purpose at least once.

Bill

--
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Preventing Dismasting
 

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c017a6e846c1@uwe...


snip

On a side note. Always make sure your grab back is bouyant. For instance
water bottles should not be full and should have lanyards. Then they will
float and not sink if lost overboard.

Excellent idea. Do they make them with floats in them or other means to
keep
them afloat or do you have to make sure of that yourself after you equip
it?

snip


There are floating ones available like this
http://www.whitworths.com.au/main_it...AbsolutePage=3

However there is not a great deal of room in them. There would be nothing
wrong with useing something larger and adding some closed cell foam inside.

DP

Preventing Dismasting
 

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c017a6e846c1@uwe...
There is an old saying that "you always step up into a liferaft" . In
otherwords dont get off the boat untill you are sure its going down.

In this case the Coast Gaurd had ordered them off the boat but they had
made
a mayday call and had no idea what to do.

Hmm.. sounds like it was Pan Pan situation not a mayday.

DP

Preventing Dismasting
 

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c017a6e846c1@uwe...
There is an old saying that "you always step up into a liferaft" . In

snip

Needless to say, before I attempt a real blue water trip I will need to
know
what the boat can handle and how to trust in that.

Does anyone recommend taking your boat out in bad weather on purpose,
locally,
in order to test the boat and your abilities? I know there are classes in
this but if you are capable and experienced, do you go out to test the
boat
and check for leaks and such with prior notification to CG or anything
like
that? It seems like a lot of problems could be fixed before someone sets
out
for a longer voyage if they have been through it on purpose at least once.


Absolutely! But within reason. Certainly not in 50+ knots close to a lee
shore. But next time your out why not reef down and see how you ride out an
oncoming storm. Everyone gets caught in them. So you might as well get used
to them.

Even though it was only inshore, we managed to race an entire series in
winds over 30 knots on extremely lightweight 24 ft trailer yachts a few
years back. There was minimal damage as most people raced conservatively
instead of pushing their boats as they would have in 20-25 knots. Of course
storms at sea are much more difficult. But on the safety of a lake or
harbour you are able to test your systems without risking your life too
much.

DP

Preventing Dismasting
 

Absolutely! But within reason. Certainly not in 50+ knots close to a lee
shore. But next time your out why not reef down and see how you ride out an
oncoming storm. Everyone gets caught in them. So you might as well get used
to them.

Even though it was only inshore, we managed to race an entire series in
winds over 30 knots on extremely lightweight 24 ft trailer yachts a few
years back. There was minimal damage as most people raced conservatively
instead of pushing their boats as they would have in 20-25 knots. Of course
storms at sea are much more difficult. But on the safety of a lake or
harbour you are able to test your systems without risking your life too
much.

That sounds like so much fun. I'll remember to take my boat out in some
harsher conditions, when I get one, to practice before I really go anywhere.
Thanks for the advice.

Bill

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Preventing Dismasting
 

"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message
news:6c090f4cc9cc4@uwe...
Absolutely! But within reason. Certainly not in 50+ knots close to a lee
shore. But next time your out why not reef down and see how you ride out
an
oncoming storm. Everyone gets caught in them. So you might as well get
used
to them.

Even though it was only inshore, we managed to race an entire series in
winds over 30 knots on extremely lightweight 24 ft trailer yachts a few
years back. There was minimal damage as most people raced conservatively
instead of pushing their boats as they would have in 20-25 knots. Of
course
storms at sea are much more difficult. But on the safety of a lake or
harbour you are able to test your systems without risking your life too
much.

That sounds like so much fun. I'll remember to take my boat out in some
harsher conditions, when I get one, to practice before I really go
anywhere.
Thanks for the advice.

Bill


I will assume by your posts that you havent had a great deal of experience
at all yet. Certainly dont go out in a "blow" intentionally for at least 12
months, unless you have an experienced sailor/s on board with you. By
experienced, I also mean one that has sailed your type or similar before.
Its no good getting the world champion dinghy sailor on board if he has
never sailed a yacht before.

I would highly recomend doing some proper courses too. Your national yaching
association will be able to assist in finding the right school..

DP

Preventing Dismasting
 

I will assume by your posts that you havent had a great deal of experience
at all yet. Certainly dont go out in a "blow" intentionally for at least 12
months, unless you have an experienced sailor/s on board with you. By
experienced, I also mean one that has sailed your type or similar before.
Its no good getting the world champion dinghy sailor on board if he has
never sailed a yacht before.

I would highly recomend doing some proper courses too. Your national yaching
association will be able to assist in finding the right school..

DP

I haven't that's why I am asking so many questions. It will be a while
before I go out in anything strong. I am learning from some really
experienced people that usually either single hand sail or go out with their
wives but they are looking for someone that can crew for them that actually
wants to sail. They are starting slow just because its all informal and they
have to work around their families that live onboard with them but they want
to go out and do more stuff that thier wives are not really interested in.

If I don't think i am really learning much from them I will probably get some
professional courses.

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Preventing Dismasting
 

D Parker wrote:
....

On a side note. Always make sure your grab back is bouyant. For instance
water bottles should not be full and should have lanyards. Then they will
float and not sink if lost overboard.


My Father-in-Law spent 18 days in a lifeboat when his tanker got
torpedoed off of The Cape Verde Islands at the end of WWII. The
emergency radio sank when it was dropped getting into the boat! Even
if the transmitter was not strong enough to reach anyone, the receiver
would have provided time signals for determining Longitude. As it
turned out, my FiL was the radio officer, and had calibrated his
watch, which survived.

After 13 days they reached Tobago but were afraid to make a night
approach, and ended up drifting by. They were picked up near Curacao
5 days later.

Preventing Dismasting
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
D Parker wrote:
...

On a side note. Always make sure your grab back is bouyant. For instance
water bottles should not be full and should have lanyards. Then they will
float and not sink if lost overboard.


My Father-in-Law spent 18 days in a lifeboat when his tanker got torpedoed
off of The Cape Verde Islands at the end of WWII. The emergency radio
sank when it was dropped getting into the boat! Even if the transmitter
was not strong enough to reach anyone, the receiver would have provided
time signals for determining Longitude. As it turned out, my FiL was the
radio officer, and had calibrated his watch, which survived.

After 13 days they reached Tobago but were afraid to make a night
approach, and ended up drifting by. They were picked up near Curacao 5
days later.

Wow.. scary stuff.. particularly in those days when SAR wasnt near as
advanced as it is these days.

D{

Preventing Dismasting
 

The standard emergency rescue radio in WWII was "the Gibson Girl." I don't
know if anyone was ever saved by using one. I'd be glad to hear of any
positive results if anyone knows of any.

Bill Longyard



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff"

My Father-in-Law spent 18 days in a lifeboat when his tanker got torpedoed
off of The Cape Verde Islands at the end of WWII. The emergency radio
sank when it was dropped getting into the boat! Even if the transmitter
was not strong enough to reach anyone, the receiver would have provided
time signals for determining Longitude. As it turned out, my FiL was the
radio officer, and had calibrated his watch, which survived.

After 13 days they reached Tobago but were afraid to make a night
approach, and ended up drifting by. They were picked up near Curacao 5
days later.