Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...wed-storylevel
Los Angeles Times
November 9, 2006
Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
An alleged accomplice in the disappearance of a yachting couple out of
O.C. says there were some frantic minutes, then a callous drowning.
By Christine Hanley, Times Staff Writer

Thomas and Jackie Hawks fought their alleged captors to the bitter end
and in a moment of tenderness managed to hold hands before an anchor
dragged them to the bottom of the sea.

Family and friends of the couple were brought to tears Wednesday when a
prosecution witness gave an excruciating, minute-by-minute account of
events aboard their 55-foot yacht, Well Deserved, during the Santa Ana
murder trial of Jennifer L. Deleon.

Deleon, 25, a Long Beach mother of two, is accused of helping her
husband, Skylar, and three other men in a plot to murder the Hawkses,
steal their yacht and plunder their savings. If convicted, she could
get life in prison without parole. Skylar Deleon, the alleged
mastermind, goes on trial in January.

Jennifer Deleon was not on board when the Hawkses were presumably
killed - their bodies haven't been found. But prosecutors say she
used her 9-month-old child to gain the couple's trust and later helped
destroy evidence by cleaning the boat. They reject her defense that she
didn't know what her husband was up to until after the alleged murders,
then followed his lead only because she was afraid of him.

On Wednesday, Alonso Machain, who was on the boat with the couple the
day they disappeared, provided the first eyewitness account of the
alleged crimes, acknowledging that he was hoping for leniency in
exchange for his testimony.

Machain, who is rail-thin and looks much younger than his 23 years,
testified that he met Skylar Deleon at Seal Beach City Jail, when he
was working as a jailer and Deleon was in a work furlough program for
committing home burglary. Machain said Deleon, during his jail stay,
convinced him that he was rich, earning more than $2 million a month
and traveling the world. Machain said he grew to respect and admire
Deleon, and the two became good friends.

In October 2004, Machain said, Skylar Deleon asked him whether he'd
like to make a "few million dollars." At the time, Machain was
unemployed. When Machain asked how he could make that much money
legally, Deleon responded that "it isn't illegal unless you get
caught," Machain said. He said Deleon told him he was routinely
solicited to carry out murders, which he did "on the side."

Deleon told him the Hawkses "were bad" and it would "make the world a
better place if they were taken out," Machain said. After the couple
were killed, he allegedly told Machain, they would get to keep their
boat and anything else they owned.

Machain said Deleon accompanied him to the Lakewood Mall, where they
bought two stun guns, and Machain went alone to another store to buy
two pairs of handcuffs. On a test-sail with the Hawkses on Nov. 6,
2004, Machain was to have overpowered Jackie Hawks while Deleon subdued
her husband. But Machain said Deleon abandoned the plan once they were
all on the boat, for unknown reasons. It was during that outing that
Machain said Deleon first learned that Thomas Hawks was a retired
probation officer "very physically fit for his age."

Back at the docks, Machain said, Deleon called his wife and told her
she had to come down to the boat to meet the Hawkses and make them
"feel more at ease." Within the next week he also decided that a third
person would be needed to help overcome Thomas Hawks.

On the morning of Nov. 15, Machain said, he and Deleon met up with that
person - whose name, he later learned, was John Fitzgerald Kennedy
- before returning to the pier. Once they were headed out to sea, he
said, Jackie Hawks called someone to report that she and her husband
were with the buyers.

Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash, jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer, grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

And this is applicable to talk.politics.guns?
Shouldn't this be in talk.politics.stunguns........

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...wed-storylevel
Los Angeles Times
November 9, 2006
Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
An alleged accomplice in the disappearance of a yachting couple out of
O.C. says there were some frantic minutes, then a callous drowning.
By Christine Hanley, Times Staff Writer

Thomas and Jackie Hawks fought their alleged captors to the bitter end
and in a moment of tenderness managed to hold hands before an anchor
dragged them to the bottom of the sea.

Family and friends of the couple were brought to tears Wednesday when a
prosecution witness gave an excruciating, minute-by-minute account of
events aboard their 55-foot yacht, Well Deserved, during the Santa Ana
murder trial of Jennifer L. Deleon.

Deleon, 25, a Long Beach mother of two, is accused of helping her
husband, Skylar, and three other men in a plot to murder the Hawkses,
steal their yacht and plunder their savings. If convicted, she could
get life in prison without parole. Skylar Deleon, the alleged
mastermind, goes on trial in January.

Jennifer Deleon was not on board when the Hawkses were presumably
killed - their bodies haven't been found. But prosecutors say she
used her 9-month-old child to gain the couple's trust and later helped
destroy evidence by cleaning the boat. They reject her defense that she
didn't know what her husband was up to until after the alleged murders,
then followed his lead only because she was afraid of him.

On Wednesday, Alonso Machain, who was on the boat with the couple the
day they disappeared, provided the first eyewitness account of the
alleged crimes, acknowledging that he was hoping for leniency in
exchange for his testimony.

Machain, who is rail-thin and looks much younger than his 23 years,
testified that he met Skylar Deleon at Seal Beach City Jail, when he
was working as a jailer and Deleon was in a work furlough program for
committing home burglary. Machain said Deleon, during his jail stay,
convinced him that he was rich, earning more than $2 million a month
and traveling the world. Machain said he grew to respect and admire
Deleon, and the two became good friends.

In October 2004, Machain said, Skylar Deleon asked him whether he'd
like to make a "few million dollars." At the time, Machain was
unemployed. When Machain asked how he could make that much money
legally, Deleon responded that "it isn't illegal unless you get
caught," Machain said. He said Deleon told him he was routinely
solicited to carry out murders, which he did "on the side."

Deleon told him the Hawkses "were bad" and it would "make the world a
better place if they were taken out," Machain said. After the couple
were killed, he allegedly told Machain, they would get to keep their
boat and anything else they owned.

Machain said Deleon accompanied him to the Lakewood Mall, where they
bought two stun guns, and Machain went alone to another store to buy
two pairs of handcuffs. On a test-sail with the Hawkses on Nov. 6,
2004, Machain was to have overpowered Jackie Hawks while Deleon subdued
her husband. But Machain said Deleon abandoned the plan once they were
all on the boat, for unknown reasons. It was during that outing that
Machain said Deleon first learned that Thomas Hawks was a retired
probation officer "very physically fit for his age."

Back at the docks, Machain said, Deleon called his wife and told her
she had to come down to the boat to meet the Hawkses and make them
"feel more at ease." Within the next week he also decided that a third
person would be needed to help overcome Thomas Hawks.

On the morning of Nov. 15, Machain said, he and Deleon met up with that
person - whose name, he later learned, was John Fitzgerald Kennedy
- before returning to the pier. Once they were headed out to sea, he
said, Jackie Hawks called someone to report that she and her husband
were with the buyers.

Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash, jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer, grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


td

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...wed-storylevel
Los Angeles Times
November 9, 2006
Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
snip

Talk Politics Guns moral to the story: Always have a firearm within reach.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Put a big hook in 'em and use 'em for fishbait in shark waters...


tiny dancer wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...wed-storylevel
Los Angeles Times
November 9, 2006
Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
An alleged accomplice in the disappearance of a yachting couple out of
O.C. says there were some frantic minutes, then a callous drowning.
By Christine Hanley, Times Staff Writer

Thomas and Jackie Hawks fought their alleged captors to the bitter end
and in a moment of tenderness managed to hold hands before an anchor
dragged them to the bottom of the sea.

Family and friends of the couple were brought to tears Wednesday when a
prosecution witness gave an excruciating, minute-by-minute account of
events aboard their 55-foot yacht, Well Deserved, during the Santa Ana
murder trial of Jennifer L. Deleon.

Deleon, 25, a Long Beach mother of two, is accused of helping her
husband, Skylar, and three other men in a plot to murder the Hawkses,
steal their yacht and plunder their savings. If convicted, she could
get life in prison without parole. Skylar Deleon, the alleged
mastermind, goes on trial in January.

Jennifer Deleon was not on board when the Hawkses were presumably
killed - their bodies haven't been found. But prosecutors say she
used her 9-month-old child to gain the couple's trust and later helped
destroy evidence by cleaning the boat. They reject her defense that she
didn't know what her husband was up to until after the alleged murders,
then followed his lead only because she was afraid of him.

On Wednesday, Alonso Machain, who was on the boat with the couple the
day they disappeared, provided the first eyewitness account of the
alleged crimes, acknowledging that he was hoping for leniency in
exchange for his testimony.

Machain, who is rail-thin and looks much younger than his 23 years,
testified that he met Skylar Deleon at Seal Beach City Jail, when he
was working as a jailer and Deleon was in a work furlough program for
committing home burglary. Machain said Deleon, during his jail stay,
convinced him that he was rich, earning more than $2 million a month
and traveling the world. Machain said he grew to respect and admire
Deleon, and the two became good friends.

In October 2004, Machain said, Skylar Deleon asked him whether he'd
like to make a "few million dollars." At the time, Machain was
unemployed. When Machain asked how he could make that much money
legally, Deleon responded that "it isn't illegal unless you get
caught," Machain said. He said Deleon told him he was routinely
solicited to carry out murders, which he did "on the side."

Deleon told him the Hawkses "were bad" and it would "make the world a
better place if they were taken out," Machain said. After the couple
were killed, he allegedly told Machain, they would get to keep their
boat and anything else they owned.

Machain said Deleon accompanied him to the Lakewood Mall, where they
bought two stun guns, and Machain went alone to another store to buy
two pairs of handcuffs. On a test-sail with the Hawkses on Nov. 6,
2004, Machain was to have overpowered Jackie Hawks while Deleon subdued
her husband. But Machain said Deleon abandoned the plan once they were
all on the boat, for unknown reasons. It was during that outing that
Machain said Deleon first learned that Thomas Hawks was a retired
probation officer "very physically fit for his age."

Back at the docks, Machain said, Deleon called his wife and told her
she had to come down to the boat to meet the Hawkses and make them
"feel more at ease." Within the next week he also decided that a third
person would be needed to help overcome Thomas Hawks.

On the morning of Nov. 15, Machain said, he and Deleon met up with that
person - whose name, he later learned, was John Fitzgerald Kennedy
- before returning to the pier. Once they were headed out to sea, he
said, Jackie Hawks called someone to report that she and her husband
were with the buyers.

Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash, jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer, grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


td

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"tiny dancer" wrote in message
.. .

wrote in message
oups.com...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...wed-storylevel
Los Angeles Times
November 9, 2006
Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
An alleged accomplice in the disappearance of a yachting couple out of
O.C. says there were some frantic minutes, then a callous drowning.
By Christine Hanley, Times Staff Writer

Thomas and Jackie Hawks fought their alleged captors to the bitter end
and in a moment of tenderness managed to hold hands before an anchor
dragged them to the bottom of the sea.

Family and friends of the couple were brought to tears Wednesday when a
prosecution witness gave an excruciating, minute-by-minute account of
events aboard their 55-foot yacht, Well Deserved, during the Santa Ana
murder trial of Jennifer L. Deleon.

Deleon, 25, a Long Beach mother of two, is accused of helping her
husband, Skylar, and three other men in a plot to murder the Hawkses,
steal their yacht and plunder their savings. If convicted, she could
get life in prison without parole. Skylar Deleon, the alleged
mastermind, goes on trial in January.

Jennifer Deleon was not on board when the Hawkses were presumably
killed - their bodies haven't been found. But prosecutors say she
used her 9-month-old child to gain the couple's trust and later helped
destroy evidence by cleaning the boat. They reject her defense that she
didn't know what her husband was up to until after the alleged murders,
then followed his lead only because she was afraid of him.

On Wednesday, Alonso Machain, who was on the boat with the couple the
day they disappeared, provided the first eyewitness account of the
alleged crimes, acknowledging that he was hoping for leniency in
exchange for his testimony.

Machain, who is rail-thin and looks much younger than his 23 years,
testified that he met Skylar Deleon at Seal Beach City Jail, when he
was working as a jailer and Deleon was in a work furlough program for
committing home burglary. Machain said Deleon, during his jail stay,
convinced him that he was rich, earning more than $2 million a month
and traveling the world. Machain said he grew to respect and admire
Deleon, and the two became good friends.

In October 2004, Machain said, Skylar Deleon asked him whether he'd
like to make a "few million dollars." At the time, Machain was
unemployed. When Machain asked how he could make that much money
legally, Deleon responded that "it isn't illegal unless you get
caught," Machain said. He said Deleon told him he was routinely
solicited to carry out murders, which he did "on the side."

Deleon told him the Hawkses "were bad" and it would "make the world a
better place if they were taken out," Machain said. After the couple
were killed, he allegedly told Machain, they would get to keep their
boat and anything else they owned.

Machain said Deleon accompanied him to the Lakewood Mall, where they
bought two stun guns, and Machain went alone to another store to buy
two pairs of handcuffs. On a test-sail with the Hawkses on Nov. 6,
2004, Machain was to have overpowered Jackie Hawks while Deleon subdued
her husband. But Machain said Deleon abandoned the plan once they were
all on the boat, for unknown reasons. It was during that outing that
Machain said Deleon first learned that Thomas Hawks was a retired
probation officer "very physically fit for his age."

Back at the docks, Machain said, Deleon called his wife and told her
she had to come down to the boat to meet the Hawkses and make them
"feel more at ease." Within the next week he also decided that a third
person would be needed to help overcome Thomas Hawks.

On the morning of Nov. 15, Machain said, he and Deleon met up with that
person - whose name, he later learned, was John Fitzgerald Kennedy
- before returning to the pier. Once they were headed out to sea, he
said, Jackie Hawks called someone to report that she and her husband
were with the buyers.

Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash, jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer, grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


td


They should be used for cut bait. Trolling strips cut off while they're
still alive.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

tiny dancer wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...wed-storylevel
Los Angeles Times
November 9, 2006
Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
An alleged accomplice in the disappearance of a yachting couple out of
O.C. says there were some frantic minutes, then a callous drowning.
By Christine Hanley, Times Staff Writer

Thomas and Jackie Hawks fought their alleged captors to the bitter end
and in a moment of tenderness managed to hold hands before an anchor
dragged them to the bottom of the sea.

Family and friends of the couple were brought to tears Wednesday when a
prosecution witness gave an excruciating, minute-by-minute account of
events aboard their 55-foot yacht, Well Deserved, during the Santa Ana
murder trial of Jennifer L. Deleon.

Deleon, 25, a Long Beach mother of two, is accused of helping her
husband, Skylar, and three other men in a plot to murder the Hawkses,
steal their yacht and plunder their savings. If convicted, she could
get life in prison without parole. Skylar Deleon, the alleged
mastermind, goes on trial in January.

Jennifer Deleon was not on board when the Hawkses were presumably
killed - their bodies haven't been found. But prosecutors say she
used her 9-month-old child to gain the couple's trust and later helped
destroy evidence by cleaning the boat. They reject her defense that she
didn't know what her husband was up to until after the alleged murders,
then followed his lead only because she was afraid of him.

On Wednesday, Alonso Machain, who was on the boat with the couple the
day they disappeared, provided the first eyewitness account of the
alleged crimes, acknowledging that he was hoping for leniency in
exchange for his testimony.

Machain, who is rail-thin and looks much younger than his 23 years,
testified that he met Skylar Deleon at Seal Beach City Jail, when he
was working as a jailer and Deleon was in a work furlough program for
committing home burglary. Machain said Deleon, during his jail stay,
convinced him that he was rich, earning more than $2 million a month
and traveling the world. Machain said he grew to respect and admire
Deleon, and the two became good friends.

In October 2004, Machain said, Skylar Deleon asked him whether he'd
like to make a "few million dollars." At the time, Machain was
unemployed. When Machain asked how he could make that much money
legally, Deleon responded that "it isn't illegal unless you get
caught," Machain said. He said Deleon told him he was routinely
solicited to carry out murders, which he did "on the side."

Deleon told him the Hawkses "were bad" and it would "make the world a
better place if they were taken out," Machain said. After the couple
were killed, he allegedly told Machain, they would get to keep their
boat and anything else they owned.

Machain said Deleon accompanied him to the Lakewood Mall, where they
bought two stun guns, and Machain went alone to another store to buy
two pairs of handcuffs. On a test-sail with the Hawkses on Nov. 6,
2004, Machain was to have overpowered Jackie Hawks while Deleon subdued
her husband. But Machain said Deleon abandoned the plan once they were
all on the boat, for unknown reasons. It was during that outing that
Machain said Deleon first learned that Thomas Hawks was a retired
probation officer "very physically fit for his age."

Back at the docks, Machain said, Deleon called his wife and told her
she had to come down to the boat to meet the Hawkses and make them
"feel more at ease." Within the next week he also decided that a third
person would be needed to help overcome Thomas Hawks.

On the morning of Nov. 15, Machain said, he and Deleon met up with that
person - whose name, he later learned, was John Fitzgerald Kennedy
- before returning to the pier. Once they were headed out to sea, he
said, Jackie Hawks called someone to report that she and her husband
were with the buyers.

Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash, jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer, grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"tiny dancer" wrote in message
.. .

wrote in message
oups.com...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...wed-storylevel
Los Angeles Times
November 9, 2006
Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
An alleged accomplice in the disappearance of a yachting couple out of
O.C. says there were some frantic minutes, then a callous drowning.
By Christine Hanley, Times Staff Writer

Thomas and Jackie Hawks fought their alleged captors to the bitter end
and in a moment of tenderness managed to hold hands before an anchor
dragged them to the bottom of the sea.

Family and friends of the couple were brought to tears Wednesday when a
prosecution witness gave an excruciating, minute-by-minute account of
events aboard their 55-foot yacht, Well Deserved, during the Santa Ana
murder trial of Jennifer L. Deleon.

Deleon, 25, a Long Beach mother of two, is accused of helping her
husband, Skylar, and three other men in a plot to murder the Hawkses,
steal their yacht and plunder their savings. If convicted, she could
get life in prison without parole. Skylar Deleon, the alleged
mastermind, goes on trial in January.

Jennifer Deleon was not on board when the Hawkses were presumably
killed - their bodies haven't been found. But prosecutors say she
used her 9-month-old child to gain the couple's trust and later helped
destroy evidence by cleaning the boat. They reject her defense that she
didn't know what her husband was up to until after the alleged murders,
then followed his lead only because she was afraid of him.

On Wednesday, Alonso Machain, who was on the boat with the couple the
day they disappeared, provided the first eyewitness account of the
alleged crimes, acknowledging that he was hoping for leniency in
exchange for his testimony.

Machain, who is rail-thin and looks much younger than his 23 years,
testified that he met Skylar Deleon at Seal Beach City Jail, when he
was working as a jailer and Deleon was in a work furlough program for
committing home burglary. Machain said Deleon, during his jail stay,
convinced him that he was rich, earning more than $2 million a month
and traveling the world. Machain said he grew to respect and admire
Deleon, and the two became good friends.

In October 2004, Machain said, Skylar Deleon asked him whether he'd
like to make a "few million dollars." At the time, Machain was
unemployed. When Machain asked how he could make that much money
legally, Deleon responded that "it isn't illegal unless you get
caught," Machain said. He said Deleon told him he was routinely
solicited to carry out murders, which he did "on the side."

Deleon told him the Hawkses "were bad" and it would "make the world a
better place if they were taken out," Machain said. After the couple
were killed, he allegedly told Machain, they would get to keep their
boat and anything else they owned.

Machain said Deleon accompanied him to the Lakewood Mall, where they
bought two stun guns, and Machain went alone to another store to buy
two pairs of handcuffs. On a test-sail with the Hawkses on Nov. 6,
2004, Machain was to have overpowered Jackie Hawks while Deleon subdued
her husband. But Machain said Deleon abandoned the plan once they were
all on the boat, for unknown reasons. It was during that outing that
Machain said Deleon first learned that Thomas Hawks was a retired
probation officer "very physically fit for his age."

Back at the docks, Machain said, Deleon called his wife and told her
she had to come down to the boat to meet the Hawkses and make them
"feel more at ease." Within the next week he also decided that a third
person would be needed to help overcome Thomas Hawks.

On the morning of Nov. 15, Machain said, he and Deleon met up with that
person - whose name, he later learned, was John Fitzgerald Kennedy
- before returning to the pier. Once they were headed out to sea, he
said, Jackie Hawks called someone to report that she and her husband
were with the buyers.

Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash, jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer, grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


td

I must be behind the times. I thought this was all over by now. This story
came out earlier. In fact, previously it ended with the fact that the wife's
head smacked loudly in the side of the boat just before the anchor pulled
her into the water. So maybe she at least didn't feel anything further. I
hope. What a horrible cast of characters. jc

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
snipped
Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the
boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct
tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to
the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything
funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried
to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash,
jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer,
grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo


You have your *opinions* and I have mine. Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths. You just don't get it bo. Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'? Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future* when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS. The
Hawks never got to see their grandchild. Remember him? The one they were
selling their boat so they could spend time with the new grandchild. Shasta
Groene will NEVER get back her innocence lost. She will NEVER get back her
brother/s or her mom. The *victims* had no choice in the matter. Those who
perpetrated the crimes/killings did.


td

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

agreed!


tiny dancer wrote:
"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
snipped
Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the
boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct
tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to
the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything
funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried
to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash,
jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer,
grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo


You have your *opinions* and I have mine. Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths. You just don't get it bo. Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'? Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future* when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS. The
Hawks never got to see their grandchild. Remember him? The one they were
selling their boat so they could spend time with the new grandchild. Shasta
Groene will NEVER get back her innocence lost. She will NEVER get back her
brother/s or her mom. The *victims* had no choice in the matter. Those who
perpetrated the crimes/killings did.


td

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

tiny dancer wrote:

"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:

snipped

Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the

boat

near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct

tape

as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to

the

main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything

funny

he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried

to

fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash,

jewelry

and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer,

grabbed

a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo



You have your *opinions* and I have mine. Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths. You just don't get it bo. Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'? Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future* when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS. The
Hawks never got to see their grandchild. Remember him? The one they were
selling their boat so they could spend time with the new grandchild. Shasta
Groene will NEVER get back her innocence lost. She will NEVER get back her
brother/s or her mom. The *victims* had no choice in the matter. Those who
perpetrated the crimes/killings did.


td




Well said.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

tiny dancer wrote:
"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
snipped

Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo


You have your *opinions* and I have mine.

But there are open-minded folks out there (one or two) who might be
swayed by my arguments.

Or yours.

Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths.

Exactly how hideous does it have to be to let you play God? Or a
person in a black robe? Or 12 people off the street?

You just don't get it bo.

So much for the "you have your opinion" approach.

Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'?

I do, obviously. Just because *you* don't, it isn't fair to say
*nobody* does. Obviously, *somebody* does. Or do you think I'm the
only person who is opposed to the death penalty?

Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future* when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS.

I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.

The
Hawks never got to see their grandchild. Remember him? The one they were
selling their boat so they could spend time with the new grandchild. Shasta
Groene will NEVER get back her innocence lost. She will NEVER get back her
brother/s or her mom. The *victims* had no choice in the matter. Those who
perpetrated the crimes/killings did.

That justifies a severe punishment, it doesn't justify killing them.

And you live in a fantasy world. In your fantasy land, governments are
fair and wise, prosecutors restrained, everyone gets a fair trial and
nobody gets framed by crooked cops and ambitious d.a.s In your
fantasy, the death penalty is only used when it is absoloutely certain
the person did the crime. Heck, why not add that if they make a
mistake, the court will bring the dead man back to life, since you're
in a fantasy world anyway.

Out here in the real world the court system is adversarial and d.a.'s
run in elections. They go for the strongest penalties they can get
when the crime is heinous because the public demands it.

Now read that carefully: not "when guilt is unquestionable", but "when
the crime is heinous". That's a reality. That will never change. You
MUST judge the death penalty with that unchangeable fact in mind,
because if you don't, you're waving your magic wand and making the real
world disappear for fantasy land.


Bo Raxo

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

That justifies a severe punishment, it doesn't justify killing them.

It does to me.


Now read that carefully: not "when guilt is unquestionable", but "when
the crime is heinous". That's a reality. That will never change. You
MUST judge the death penalty with that unchangeable fact in mind,
because if you don't, you're waving your magic wand and making the real
world disappear for fantasy land.

I have, and I support it. BTW, I dont' ahve a magic wand.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ps.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
snipped

Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where
the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty
and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in
'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be
able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo


You have your *opinions* and I have mine.

But there are open-minded folks out there (one or two) who might be
swayed by my arguments.

Or yours.

Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths.

Exactly how hideous does it have to be to let you play God?


IIRC, it was Deleon who *played god*. It was he who decided he wanted what
the Hawks had and decided to kill 'em for it. Now, he could have gone about
it the way the Hawks did. Work hard, for many many years. Save wisely, and
buy themselves their *dream boat*. But no, he chose not to go that route.
He CHOSE to kill 'em and take theirs instead. He CHOSE the time, place and
method of two peoples' deaths.

Now, were I going to *choose* my own death, lets see, would I choose to be
beaten up, handcuffed to my spouse, weighted down with an anchor, and be
dropped alive into the ocean? Probably not, just not my idea of a *neato*
way to die. Oh yeah, I forgot the amount of time where I'm tied up, have
duct tape over my eyes and mouth, ANTICIPATING my FINAL FATE. Probably an
hour or so.

IIRC, Mrs. Hawks was crying, pleading to see her grandchild. Nope, still
don't think it would be at the top of my 'ways to die' list.


Or a
person in a black robe? Or 12 people off the street?


See above.



You just don't get it bo.

So much for the "you have your opinion" approach.

Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'?

I do, obviously. Just because *you* don't, it isn't fair to say
*nobody* does. Obviously, *somebody* does. Or do you think I'm the
only person who is opposed to the death penalty?


Take a vote. How many people here, right here and now, on this case, think
Deleon should get the death penalty for the cold-blooded, premeditated,
particularly heinous and callous murders of two completely innocent people
who just happened to have what he wanted?



Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future*
when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS.

I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


As were the lives of the victims, weren't they? Once they are GONE, you
seem to forget about 'em pretty damn fast. Deleon has killed before IIRC.
Just how many lives does he get to *forfeit*?



The
Hawks never got to see their grandchild. Remember him? The one they
were
selling their boat so they could spend time with the new grandchild.
Shasta
Groene will NEVER get back her innocence lost. She will NEVER get back
her
brother/s or her mom. The *victims* had no choice in the matter. Those
who
perpetrated the crimes/killings did.

That justifies a severe punishment, it doesn't justify killing them.


The *punishment* as prescribed is death, or at least it is a possibility. A
known possibility. Deleon KNEW he could get death. Do you think, on the
way back to shore, when he and his *buds* were eating the Hawks food and
fishing with their gear, they expressed any REMORSE for the killings of two
people? Do you suppose maybe they, oh say, said a couple Hail Mary's for
them?



And you live in a fantasy world.

And you sir, live in a cold and sterile world. One that negates the victims
the moment they are gone/dead. For just a second there, Paul Simons words
rang in my mind. I am a rock.

Deleon brought on his own misery. And he spread that misery to many MANY
unsuspecting victims, probably too countless to imagine. All the friends,
family, acquaintances of the Hawks. And probably many of the 'rec boats
talk' people who are posting or reading this. Deleon spread a bit of *fear*
I'd guess, among those who read about this crime. Recognizing that there
are such evil people in this world.


In your fantasy land, governments are
fair and wise, prosecutors restrained, everyone gets a fair trial and
nobody gets framed by crooked cops and ambitious d.a.s In your
fantasy, the death penalty is only used when it is absoloutely certain
the person did the crime. Heck, why not add that if they make a
mistake, the court will bring the dead man back to life, since you're
in a fantasy world anyway.

Out here in the real world the court system is adversarial and d.a.'s
run in elections. They go for the strongest penalties they can get
when the crime is heinous because the public demands it.

Now read that carefully: not "when guilt is unquestionable", but "when
the crime is heinous". That's a reality. That will never change. You
MUST judge the death penalty with that unchangeable fact in mind,
because if you don't, you're waving your magic wand and making the real
world disappear for fantasy land.


Bo Raxo


Yeah, right. In the real world, all the cases we've followed here on true
crime, most every one of them has been decided by a thoughtful jury who gave
the evidence significant weight in the process. You can mourn all your
sympathy to the dregs of society. Me, I like to save mine for the real
victims here. The innocent people who were merely going about their routine
lives, and ended up 'bumping into' the Deleons of the world.


td

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.


Bo Raxo

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

tiny dancer wrote:
"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ps.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
snipped

Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where
the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty
and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in
'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be
able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo


You have your *opinions* and I have mine.

But there are open-minded folks out there (one or two) who might be
swayed by my arguments.

Or yours.

Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths.

Exactly how hideous does it have to be to let you play God?


IIRC, it was Deleon who *played god*. It was he who decided he wanted what
the Hawks had and decided to kill 'em for it.

Yes, and he was wrong to do so. That doesn't magically mean that makes
it right for you to do so.

Let's put it another way: If someone is a rapist, that doesn't make it
alright for us to sentence him or her to be raped. Because, you see,
it is wrong to rape a human being (or an animal, I'll add).

Wrong. Always wrong.

Same thing with killing.



You just don't get it bo.

So much for the "you have your opinion" approach.

Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'?

I do, obviously. Just because *you* don't, it isn't fair to say
*nobody* does. Obviously, *somebody* does. Or do you think I'm the
only person who is opposed to the death penalty?


Take a vote. How many people here, right here and now, on this case, think
Deleon should get the death penalty for the cold-blooded, premeditated,
particularly heinous and callous murders of two completely innocent people
who just happened to have what he wanted?


You said "nobody cares". You were wrong. Now you say "not many people
care".

Oh, well, that's different: you have a mob on your side. I'll play
that game: Do you know how many countries that are remotely stable,
non-third world democracies, have the death penalty? You want to take
a vote, let every free country in the world vote. You'll lose.



Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future*
when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS.

I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


As were the lives of the victims, weren't they? Once they are GONE, you
seem to forget about 'em pretty damn fast.

Oh yeah, I'm forgetting them, I want to give the three killers LWOP for
polliting the ocean. Sheesh! Any other silly straw man arguments?

Deleon has killed before IIRC.

I don't. And that still doesn't make the death penalty right.

Just how many lives does he get to *forfeit*?


So if they kill nice people, people with grandchildren, they die. If
they'd killed some criminal with a long rap sheet, would that get them
a lesser punishment, then? The lives of people like the Hawks are
worth more than human beings who are criminals, is that it?

HERE'S THE QUESTION: If Mrs. Deleon had taken the boat out after Skyler
stole it, stun gunned her husband, and threw him overboard, would you
give her the death penalty for that?

I guess not: she isn't one of those good people. Her life is worth
less. And we're going to let the government, in your world, decide
which human lives are worth more, and which less.

Yeah, great moral position. Can't see any danger there - sheeeesh.


Bo Raxo

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

tiny dancer wrote:

And you sir, live in a cold and sterile world.

You want to kill people. I don't, I think human life is precious.
Which one of us lives in a cold world?

One that negates the victims
the moment they are gone/dead.

I want to put the killers in prison, just not kill them. That negates
the victims? If I imprison a rapist, instead of raping him, have I
negated the rape victim?

For just a second there, Paul Simons words
rang in my mind. I am a rock.


Yeah, you're a killer. Deleon does it for money, you do it to "get
even". The only difference is there is a chance Deleon could have
gotten what he was killing for, you won't: You can tie an anchor to all
three killers and toss them in the ocean, and it won't change the
victims' suffering one bit, not give then one more microsecond of the
lives that were stolen from them.


Bo Raxo

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Bo Raxo wrote:
snip


Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo

I am normally anti-death penalty, but I have one name for you. Timothy
Buss. Google it.

-L.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
oups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:

And you sir, live in a cold and sterile world.

You want to kill people. I don't, I think human life is precious.
Which one of us lives in a cold world?

One that negates the victims
the moment they are gone/dead.

I want to put the killers in prison, just not kill them. That negates
the victims? If I imprison a rapist, instead of raping him, have I
negated the rape victim?

For just a second there, Paul Simons words
rang in my mind. I am a rock.


Yeah, you're a killer. Deleon does it for money, you do it to "get
even". The only difference is there is a chance Deleon could have
gotten what he was killing for, you won't: You can tie an anchor to all
three killers and toss them in the ocean, and it won't change the
victims' suffering one bit, not give then one more microsecond of the
lives that were stolen from them.


Bo Raxo


Tell that to all the victims of REPEAT OFFENDERS. Tell that to the kid that
Joseph Duncan raped and tried to strangle when he was 17. Tell that to the
women Richard Allen Davis kidnapped and raped prior to Polly Klass. Tell
that to the victim prior to Carlie Brucia, tell it to the victims that came
before Jessica Lunsford, etc. You say 'they will never get out again'. I
say, look at history. Life may mean *life* now. Wait 20 or 30 years, until
the prisons are more over-crowded and parole boards need to do a little
thinning out again. Think Kenneth MacDuff. I wonder how many lives he
destroyed after his first *kills*? When it was thought 'he'd never see the
light of day again.' IIRC, there were at least five more dead women, five
more sets of families, friends, children who lost their mothers. Now that
he's finally gotten the death penalty, we know for sure *he* won't have any
more *kills* to his credit.


td

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

tiny dancer wrote:


Tell that to all the victims of REPEAT OFFENDERS. Tell that to the kid that
Joseph Duncan raped and tried to strangle when he was 17.

He was not sentenced to LWOP. I guess you're arguing a rapist should be
sentenced to death, because then there will be no more victims. But
LWOP makes that happen just as surely as a death penalty.

Oh, you can argue that we will never, ever execute the wrong person,
only the clearly guilty.. But I can't argue we will never, ever
release a LWOP prisoner.

Uh huh.

Tell that to the
women Richard Allen Davis kidnapped and raped prior to Polly Klass.

Also wasn't given LWOP. If he had been, there would have been no more
victims. Didn't require the death penalty So the example proves
nothing.


Tell
that to the victim prior to Carlie Brucia,

That guy also wasn't given LWOP. If he had been, there would have been
no more victims. Didn't require the death penalty So the example
proves nothing.



tell it to the victims that came
before Jessica Lunsford, etc.



That guy also wasn't given LWOP. If he had been, there would have been
no more victims. Didn't require the death penalty So the example
proves nothing.

You say 'they will never get out again'. I
say, look at history. Life may mean *life* now. Wait 20 or 30 years, until
the prisons are more over-crowded and parole boards need to do a little
thinning out again.

Oh sure, I can just see some governor approving that...get real!!! You
think the system is good enough to never execute an innocent person,
but lousy enough to let the worst killers to free if they aren't
executed. C'mon, that's contradictory.


Think Kenneth MacDuff.

He got a plea bargain, that's how he got out. You want to outlaw plea
bargains? Has nothing to do with death penalty versus life without
parole.

The system is good enough that we'd only kill those clearly guilty, but
lousy enough that we can't possibly consider LWOP a real alternative.

Makes no sense.


Bo Raxo

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"-L." wrote in message
ups.com...

Bo Raxo wrote:
snip


Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo

I am normally anti-death penalty, but I have one name for you. Timothy
Buss. Google it.

-L.


And then google Kenneth McDuff.


Kenneth Mcduff was arrested May 4th, 1992. He was arrested when he should
have been dead.

Kenneth McDuff was convicted of the 1966 shooting deaths of two boys and the
vicious rape-strangulation of their 16-year-old female friend. A Fort Worth
jury ruled that McDuff should die in the electric chair, a sentence changed
to life in prison in 1972 after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down the death
penalty. In 1989, with Texas officials under fire from the federal
judiciary, McDuff was quietly turned loose on an unsuspecting society.

Within days, a naked body of a woman turned up. Prostitute Sarafia Parker,
31, had been beaten, strangled and dumped in a field near Temple.

In early 1991, McDuff enrolled at Texas State Technical College in Waco.
Soon, Central Texas prostitutes began disappearing. One, Valencia Joshua,
22, was last seen alive Feb. 24, 1991. Her naked, decomposed body later was
discovered in a shallow grave in woods behind the college. Another of the
missing women, Regenia Moore, was last seen kicking and screaming in the cab
of McDuff's pickup truck. During the Christmas holidays of 1991, Colleen
Reed disappeared from an Austin car wash. Witnesses reported hearing a woman
scream that night and seeing two men speeding away in a yellow or tan
Thunderbird. Little more than two months later, on March 1, 1992, Melissa
Northrup, pregnant with a third child, vanished from the Waco convenience
store where she worked. McDuff's beige Thunderbird, broken down, was
discovered a block from the store.

Fifty-seven days later, a fisherman found the young woman's nearly nude body
floating in a gravel pit in Dallas County, 90 miles north of Waco. By then,
McDuff was the target of a nationwide manhunt. Just days after Mrs.
Northrup's funeral, McDuff was recognized on television's "America's Most
Wanted'' and arrested May 4 in Kansas City.

In 1993, a Houston jury ordered him executed for the kidnap-slaying of
22-year-old Melissa Northrup, a Waco mother of two. In 1994, a Seguin jury
assessed him the death penalty for the abduction-rape-murder of 28-year-old
Colleen Reed, an Austin accountant. Pamplin's son Larry, the current sheriff
of Falls County, appeared at McDuff's Houston trial for the 1992 abduction
and murder of Melissa Northrup.

"Kenneth McDuff is absolutely the most vicious and savage individual I
know,'' he told reporters. "He has absolutely no conscience, and I think he
enjoys killing.''
If McDuff had been executed as scheduled, he said, "no telling how many
lives would have been saved.''
At least nine, probably more, Texas authorities suspect.

His riegn of terror finally ended on November 17, 1998 when Kenneth McDuff
was put to death by the state of Texas by Lethal Injection. May his victims
rest in peace.

Now here we are, 14 years after his arrest and people want to abolish the
death penalty again. They want to set in motion the events that led to the
deaths of these women. When are people going to learn.


http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?p=9389559


td

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Bo Raxo wrote:
tiny dancer wrote:


Think Kenneth MacDuff.

He got a plea bargain, that's how he got out. You want to outlaw plea
bargains? Has nothing to do with death penalty versus life without
parole.


Oh wait, I was thinking of someone else. This is an hilarious example:
if he'd been originally sentenced to LWOP, nobody else would have
died.

But he was given the death penalty, under a flawed process, and the
conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court. And the state whose
law he was convicted under was poorly written so it didn't roll over to
a life sentence, as with for example Manson. *That* is why he got out -
poorly written laws, and *because* people like you wanted the death
penalty.

No death penalty, and he would not have gotten out. Plus, that
loophole in state laws has been plugged, overturn the death penalty and
they automatically become LWOP. So it is no excuse to keep killing
people.

You want to claim the system is flawed, and that is a reason to execute
people? Do you see that makes no sense?


Bo Raxo

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
oups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:


Tell that to all the victims of REPEAT OFFENDERS. Tell that to the kid
that
Joseph Duncan raped and tried to strangle when he was 17.

He was not sentenced to LWOP. I guess you're arguing a rapist should be
sentenced to death, because then there will be no more victims. But
LWOP makes that happen just as surely as a death penalty.

Oh, you can argue that we will never, ever execute the wrong person,
only the clearly guilty.. But I can't argue we will never, ever
release a LWOP prisoner.

Uh huh.

Tell that to the
women Richard Allen Davis kidnapped and raped prior to Polly Klass.

Also wasn't given LWOP. If he had been, there would have been no more
victims. Didn't require the death penalty So the example proves
nothing.


Tell
that to the victim prior to Carlie Brucia,

That guy also wasn't given LWOP. If he had been, there would have been
no more victims. Didn't require the death penalty So the example
proves nothing.



tell it to the victims that came
before Jessica Lunsford, etc.



That guy also wasn't given LWOP. If he had been, there would have been
no more victims. Didn't require the death penalty So the example
proves nothing.

You say 'they will never get out again'. I
say, look at history. Life may mean *life* now. Wait 20 or 30 years,
until
the prisons are more over-crowded and parole boards need to do a little
thinning out again.

Oh sure, I can just see some governor approving that...get real!!! You
think the system is good enough to never execute an innocent person,
but lousy enough to let the worst killers to free if they aren't
executed. C'mon, that's contradictory.


Think Kenneth MacDuff.

He got a plea bargain, that's how he got out. You want to outlaw plea
bargains? Has nothing to do with death penalty versus life without
parole.


He did NOT get a plea bargain. He got PAROLED.


Kenneth Mcduff was arrested May 4th, 1992. He was arrested when he should
have been dead.

Kenneth McDuff was convicted of the 1966 shooting deaths of two boys and the
vicious rape-strangulation of their 16-year-old female friend. A Fort Worth
jury ruled that McDuff should die in the electric chair, a sentence changed
to life in prison in 1972 after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down the death
penalty. In 1989, with Texas officials under fire from the federal
judiciary, McDuff was quietly turned loose on an unsuspecting society.

Within days, a naked body of a woman turned up. Prostitute Sarafia Parker,
31, had been beaten, strangled and dumped in a field near Temple.

In early 1991, McDuff enrolled at Texas State Technical College in Waco.
Soon, Central Texas prostitutes began disappearing. One, Valencia Joshua,
22, was last seen alive Feb. 24, 1991. Her naked, decomposed body later was
discovered in a shallow grave in woods behind the college. Another of the
missing women, Regenia Moore, was last seen kicking and screaming in the cab
of McDuff's pickup truck. During the Christmas holidays of 1991, Colleen
Reed disappeared from an Austin car wash. Witnesses reported hearing a woman
scream that night and seeing two men speeding away in a yellow or tan
Thunderbird. Little more than two months later, on March 1, 1992, Melissa
Northrup, pregnant with a third child, vanished from the Waco convenience
store where she worked. McDuff's beige Thunderbird, broken down, was
discovered a block from the store.

Fifty-seven days later, a fisherman found the young woman's nearly nude body
floating in a gravel pit in Dallas County, 90 miles north of Waco. By then,
McDuff was the target of a nationwide manhunt. Just days after Mrs.
Northrup's funeral, McDuff was recognized on television's "America's Most
Wanted'' and arrested May 4 in Kansas City.

In 1993, a Houston jury ordered him executed for the kidnap-slaying of
22-year-old Melissa Northrup, a Waco mother of two. In 1994, a Seguin jury
assessed him the death penalty for the abduction-rape-murder of 28-year-old
Colleen Reed, an Austin accountant. Pamplin's son Larry, the current sheriff
of Falls County, appeared at McDuff's Houston trial for the 1992 abduction
and murder of Melissa Northrup.

"Kenneth McDuff is absolutely the most vicious and savage individual I
know,'' he told reporters. "He has absolutely no conscience, and I think he
enjoys killing.''
If McDuff had been executed as scheduled, he said, "no telling how many
lives would have been saved.''
At least nine, probably more, Texas authorities suspect.

His riegn of terror finally ended on November 17, 1998 when Kenneth McDuff
was put to death by the state of Texas by Lethal Injection. May his victims
rest in peace.

Now here we are, 14 years after his arrest and people want to abolish the
death penalty again. They want to set in motion the events that led to the
deaths of these women. When are people going to learn.


http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?p=9389559



The system is good enough that we'd only kill those clearly guilty, but
lousy enough that we can't possibly consider LWOP a real alternative.

Makes no sense.


Bo Raxo


And there is absolutely NO way you can assure me that won't happen again.


td

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
oups.com...

Bo Raxo wrote:
tiny dancer wrote:


Think Kenneth MacDuff.

He got a plea bargain, that's how he got out. You want to outlaw plea
bargains? Has nothing to do with death penalty versus life without
parole.


Oh wait, I was thinking of someone else. This is an hilarious example:
if he'd been originally sentenced to LWOP, nobody else would have
died.

But he was given the death penalty, under a flawed process, and the
conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court. And the state whose
law he was convicted under was poorly written so it didn't roll over to
a life sentence, as with for example Manson. *That* is why he got out -
poorly written laws, and *because* people like you wanted the death
penalty.

No death penalty, and he would not have gotten out. Plus, that
loophole in state laws has been plugged, overturn the death penalty and
they automatically become LWOP. So it is no excuse to keep killing
people.

You want to claim the system is flawed, and that is a reason to execute
people? Do you see that makes no sense?


Bo Raxo


Nope, wait until you have a kid. And somebody hurts your kid. I'm thinking
you might change your story. Especially if you find out your kid was just
one in a long line.

I've had it with degenerates who treat innocent human beings as pawns in
their sick games. Yes, there is a difference in human life IMO. There is
no way in hell I'd lay down my life for Joseph Duncan or this Deleon dude.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

-L. wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:
snip


Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo

I am normally anti-death penalty, but I have one name for you. Timothy
Buss. Google it.


And life without parole wouldn't have worked as well? These days, a
crime like his would have gotten LWOP - sentences used to be lighter 30
years ago. And even murderers eligible for parole almost never get it
granted - not since Willie Horton.

Yes, his crime was heinous. That doesn't change the moral calculus of
whether it is right to kill people. It isn't. He tortured his second
victim, and raped him. Would you sentence him to torture? Would you
sentence him to rape? If those things aren't right, why is the killing
part right? Because it satisfies your rage?


Bo Raxo

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
oups.com...

-L. wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:
snip


Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be
able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo

I am normally anti-death penalty, but I have one name for you. Timothy
Buss. Google it.


And life without parole wouldn't have worked as well? These days, a
crime like his would have gotten LWOP - sentences used to be lighter 30
years ago. And even murderers eligible for parole almost never get it
granted - not since Willie Horton.

Yes, his crime was heinous. That doesn't change the moral calculus of
whether it is right to kill people. It isn't. He tortured his second
victim, and raped him. Would you sentence him to torture? Would you
sentence him to rape? If those things aren't right, why is the killing
part right? Because it satisfies your rage?


No, listen carefully. BECAUSE IT FIXES THINGS SO HE CAN NEVER AGAIN HURT
ANYONE ELSE, period.

You can *project* this rage if you choose. If it makes you feel better than
those of us who don't agree with you. But that's all it is, projection.
I've told you a hundred times, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with rage or
revenge. It has to do with safety. With being ABSOLUTLEY POSITIVE that
this scum will never again hurt anyone else. He will never have the chance
or opportunity to harm another innocent being, EVER. period.


td


Bo Raxo

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Bo Raxo wrote:
wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't see it that way.


Bo, I don't thinkt hat the "Killers" had any respect for life at all.
let alone their own.


Sorry pard, the only people listed here who had the right to "life,
liberty, and the persuit of happiness," were the victims, of those who
cold bloodedly forfieted their (Hawks)rights, for them.

I'm sorry, well, not really..but I can't follow your sympathy for the
criminals listed.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

On 9 Nov 2006 22:59:32 -0800, "Bo Raxo" wrote:


wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.


Bo Raxo

And does that same philosophy apply to partial birth abortions?

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Bo Raxo wrote:
tiny dancer wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...wed-storylevel

SNIP


Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

Yup. No chance for the DeLeons to get out and do it again.

You think prison really teaches repentance and good thoughts? I think
that anyone who could do such a horrific crime is a psychopath and will
never be "right", and should never be allowed back among the rest of us.

There's a case near here, where a fellow in his fifties just killed an
18 year old woman. About five months ago he was released from prison,
where he had finished doing 25 to life, for a previous murder of a five
year old boy.

Since I don't like paying taxes for fifty years to keep them alive, I
vote for the needle.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.

You wouldn't want to be going to the bottom of the sea, tied to an
anchor, Bo.

A 25 year-old is damn well old enough to be completely accountable for
his actions. And no, I don't think he's ever going to be sorry about
what he did. In fact, I think he's right up there on the psycho-meter
with the DeLeons.

I vote with those who think dying isn't good enough for Machain and the
DeLeons.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Bo Raxo wrote:
wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:

I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.

Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.

That's where you make the error, Bo. We want to take the lives of the
DeLeons and Machains, the Ted Bundys, the Charles Chat Ngs, and other
premeditated murderers because we are _protecting_ the lives of
innumerable others.

Executing these psychopaths means they can never get out of jail because
they've convinced a bleeding heart like you that they've "reformed". Or
they might escape. Ted Bundy managed to escape from jail, not once but
twice, and continued to kill after he had escaped.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Bo Raxo wrote:

And life without parole wouldn't have worked as well? Yes, his crime was heinous. He tortured his second
victim, and raped him. Would you sentence him to torture? Would you
sentence him to rape? If those things aren't right, why is the killing
part right? Bo Raxo

I'm not all that thrilled with humans to where I think they are too
wonderfull or sacred to kill, but that's just me. Where is your line
between right and wrong? Is your line written in stone or drawn in
sand? Are you flexible to circumstances? Some societies worst
punishment for the worst crime is shunning. LWOP seems pretty barbaric
compared to that. So, what is 'right' for you? What would be your
punishment for this alledged crime? Apparently LWOP is fine, but what
comes next? Would solitary confinement and bread and water be OK?
Therapy and counseling until the person realizes their mistake or
eventually dies? If they finally see the error of their ways, what
then? Please don't say roll call at the Pearly Gates trumps all earthly
punishments. Sam

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 03:21:03 -0500, "tiny dancer"
wrote:


"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
roups.com...

Bo Raxo wrote:
tiny dancer wrote:


Think Kenneth MacDuff.

He got a plea bargain, that's how he got out. You want to outlaw plea
bargains? Has nothing to do with death penalty versus life without
parole.


Oh wait, I was thinking of someone else. This is an hilarious example:
if he'd been originally sentenced to LWOP, nobody else would have
died.

But he was given the death penalty, under a flawed process, and the
conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court. And the state whose
law he was convicted under was poorly written so it didn't roll over to
a life sentence, as with for example Manson. *That* is why he got out -
poorly written laws, and *because* people like you wanted the death
penalty.

No death penalty, and he would not have gotten out. Plus, that
loophole in state laws has been plugged, overturn the death penalty and
they automatically become LWOP. So it is no excuse to keep killing
people.

You want to claim the system is flawed, and that is a reason to execute
people? Do you see that makes no sense?


Bo Raxo


Nope, wait until you have a kid. And somebody hurts your kid. I'm thinking
you might change your story. Especially if you find out your kid was just
one in a long line.

You mean a kid like Devin Miles Gibson, diapered and left to
asphyxiate in the car, his mom, acquitted of all charges, quipping:
"Putting me behind bars wasn't going to solve anything. No matter what
the outcome was, it wasn't going to bring Devin back."

You were fine with that one, Tiny. Sure, it was probably not
intentional (funny, how she'd finally discovered the concept of
"outcome", a bit late for Devin's sake), but then no one ever
suggested Michele face capital punishment in turn.

Fact is, most of the same arguments you use on career criminals apply
he there's no reason to assume she won't have more children, no
reason to assume she'll be more responsible or better able to care for
them in the future. No reason at all to believe there won't be more
Devins in her future.

His death was even more agonizing than the Hawks', more prolonged ...
and wasn't his *mother* supposed to care for him? What do you suppose
his last thoughts were as he lay, suffocating, burning up, encased in
his own ****?

Was *that* a better way to die than plunging through icy waters
weighted down by your own anchor?

Yet you were fine with Michele walking away scot-free.

I've had it with degenerates who treat innocent human beings as pawns in
their sick games. Yes, there is a difference in human life IMO. There is
no way in hell I'd lay down my life for Joseph Duncan or this Deleon dude.

Sorry, but the raw outrage is misplaced here. I don't necessarily
agree with Bo, I don't care what happens to the Duncans or Davies of
this world. I *think* capital punishment is nearly run its course in
the USA (hell, even the Chinese, its most enthusiastic practitioners,
are backing off a bit on it), but that's neither here nor there.

You seem like the quintessential juror for whom the circumstances of
the case are less important than the question, does she identify more
with the victim or the perpetrator?

Andy Katz

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bo Raxo wrote:
wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is
inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't see it that way.


Bo, I don't thinkt hat the "Killers" had any respect for life at all.
let alone their own.


Sorry pard, the only people listed here who had the right to "life,
liberty, and the persuit of happiness," were the victims, of those who
cold bloodedly forfieted their (Hawks)rights, for them.

I'm sorry, well, not really..but I can't follow your sympathy for the
criminals listed.


My practical view is that we ought to eliminate the death penalty. Costs
too much to execute them. 10-15 times the cost to keep them the rest of
their lives. That said, we can have special prisons for them. No TV, no
library, no radio. Get to sit in their cells 23 hours a day.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"-L." wrote in message
ups.com...

Bo Raxo wrote:
snip


Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo

I am normally anti-death penalty, but I have one name for you. Timothy
Buss. Google it.

-L.


Same here. I have opposed the death penalty all my life, but if we are
going to have it, this is the type of case where it's appropriate.

MaryL

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

"Duke Nukem" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:57:27 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


My practical view is that we ought to eliminate the death penalty. Costs
too much to execute them. 10-15 times the cost to keep them the rest of
their lives. That said, we can have special prisons for them. No TV, no
library, no radio. Get to sit in their cells 23 hours a day.

My practical view is kill 'em all immediately.

That would be OK also. One appeal, 2 weeks later. By-by. Friends daughter
was kidnapped and badly abused before being killed. They got the death
penalty, the bad couple were about 40 2 years ago when sentenced to death.
They will probably die of old age.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

In article ,
"tiny dancer" wrote:


Take a vote. How many people here, right here and now, on this case, think
Deleon should get the death penalty for the cold-blooded, premeditated,
particularly heinous and callous murders of two completely innocent people
who just happened to have what he wanted?


I vote to eliminate this evil scumbag ASAP.

In case you forgot, this cretin tried to have his own father killed
while in Jail awaiting trial in this case.

Hey Bo, what do you have to say about that?

Pigeon

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Bo,
In my opinion, pal, you are one sick *******. It is the same logic
you use right here in your argument that probably drove these useless
pieces of human garbage to do what they did to those two wonderful
people. What makes you feel this way? Is it because you can relate to
what Skylar, his despicable whore of a wife, and their cohorts were
thinking when they committed such an ugly atrocity to fellow human
beings? You are a pathetic loser.

Liberalism is a mental disorder, indeed.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

Bo Raxo wrote:
And life without parole wouldn't have worked as well? These days, a
crime like his would have gotten LWOP - sentences used to be lighter 30
years ago. And even murderers eligible for parole almost never get it
granted - not since Willie Horton.

Coulda woulda should doesn't help Christoper. I am very much in favor
of life sentences - as long as they are true life sentences. This
monster should never have been released.


Yes, his crime was heinous. That doesn't change the moral calculus of
whether it is right to kill people. It isn't. He tortured his second
victim, and raped him. Would you sentence him to torture? Would you
sentence him to rape? If those things aren't right, why is the killing
part right? Because it satisfies your rage?

He deserves to be dead. It really is that simple. I wouldn't cry if he
was tortured and raped. He showed no mercy to Tara Sue or Christopher.
My Mom was Tara Sue's parents friend - my brother knows her brothers.
I went to highschool with Christoper's Mom. My best friend's sister
went to school with Buss - was in his class when he killed Tara Sue.
These people are very real to me.

Personally, I would have let Randy Huffman hunt him Buss down once he
was released, like Randy wanted to do. But the cops put a watch on
Huffman until Buss was out of town. Had Randy taken care of the
situation, Christopher would be alive.

-L.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

MaryL wrote:
Same here. I have opposed the death penalty all my life, but if we are
going to have it, this is the type of case where it's appropriate.

MaryL

Buss got the DP and it was stayed when then Gov. of IL George Ryan
(whom I also know) abolished the DP in Illinois. I wished he (George)
could have waited a bit longer.

-L.

Account of pair's fate at sea chills courtroom
 

In many ways I thing Gov. Geo needed it himself.


-L. wrote:
MaryL wrote:
Same here. I have opposed the death penalty all my life, but if we are
going to have it, this is the type of case where it's appropriate.

MaryL

Buss got the DP and it was stayed when then Gov. of IL George Ryan
(whom I also know) abolished the DP in Illinois. I wished he (George)
could have waited a bit longer.

-L.