"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
snipped
Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the
boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct
tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to
the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything
funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried
to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash,
jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer,
grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo


You have your *opinions* and I have mine. Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths. You just don't get it bo. Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'? Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future* when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS. The
Hawks never got to see their grandchild. Remember him? The one they were
selling their boat so they could spend time with the new grandchild. Shasta
Groene will NEVER get back her innocence lost. She will NEVER get back her
brother/s or her mom. The *victims* had no choice in the matter. Those who
perpetrated the crimes/killings did.


td

agreed!


tiny dancer wrote:
"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
snipped
Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the
boat
near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct
tape
as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to
the
main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything
funny
he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried
to
fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash,
jewelry
and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer,
grabbed
a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo


You have your *opinions* and I have mine. Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths. You just don't get it bo. Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'? Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future* when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS. The
Hawks never got to see their grandchild. Remember him? The one they were
selling their boat so they could spend time with the new grandchild. Shasta
Groene will NEVER get back her innocence lost. She will NEVER get back her
brother/s or her mom. The *victims* had no choice in the matter. Those who
perpetrated the crimes/killings did.


td

tiny dancer wrote:

"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:

snipped

Machain said he was standing in the kitchen of the main cabin when
Deleon and Kennedy overpowered Thomas Hawks in a lower area of the

boat

near a bedroom. The commotion caused Jackie Hawks to try to move past
Machain, he said, and she screamed, "What's going on?"

With Jackie Hawks cornered in the kitchen, Machain said, he pulled out
his stun gun. "I knew I had to act. I had to overpower Mrs. Hawks. I
struggled with her. She was fighting me."

Eventually he got her handcuffed, he said, and took her down to the
bedroom, where her husband was already handcuffed on the bed. That's
when she asked Deleon, "How could you do this to us? You brought your
wife and kids here. We trusted you."

Machain helped Deleon cover the couple's eyes and mouths with duct

tape

as Jackie Hawks cried, saying she didn't want to die and that she
wanted to see her new grandchild. The Hawkses were then taken up to

the

main cabin one at a time to sign and fingerprint title transfer
documents. Jackie Hawks was told that if she cooperated she would be
released. "She was shaking uncontrollably," Machain recalled. When it
was her husband's turn, Deleon told him that if he tried anything

funny

he would be struck with a Magnum flashlight. Thomas Hawks responded
that he wouldn't try anything, according to Machain.

The couple were brought back to the bedroom while Deleon and Kennedy
prepared the anchor on the aft deck, Machain said. Left to "baby-sit"
them, he watched as Thomas Hawks tried to console his wife.

She was still crying and asking, in a muffled voice through the tape,
why their captors were doing this to them.

"I could see Mr. Hawks trying to reach over and hold her hand and
comfort her," Machain said.

On the deck, the couple were tied together standing, her back to her
husband's chest with their hands still cuffed behind them.

Realizing what was happening, Thomas Hawks kicked Deleon as he tried

to

fasten the couple to the anchor, sending him back into a deck chair,
Machain said.

Kennedy responded with a "hard swing" to the husband's right temple.
"It was a pretty hard blow" that left him staggering and making
"slurring noises," Machain said.

He would have fallen to his knees but "Mrs. Hawks was holding him up,"
all the time "screaming, yelling, asking, 'What's going on?' " he
recalled.

Deleon lifted the anchor and threw it overboard as Kennedy pushed the
couple overboard, Machain said.

Deleon then turned the yacht around and the men collected cash,

jewelry

and other valuables, Machain said. Kennedy cracked open a beer,

grabbed

a fishing rod and fished all the way back to the harbor, he said.



Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo



You have your *opinions* and I have mine. Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths. You just don't get it bo. Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'? Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future* when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS. The
Hawks never got to see their grandchild. Remember him? The one they were
selling their boat so they could spend time with the new grandchild. Shasta
Groene will NEVER get back her innocence lost. She will NEVER get back her
brother/s or her mom. The *victims* had no choice in the matter. Those who
perpetrated the crimes/killings did.


td




Well said.

tiny dancer wrote:
"Bo Raxo" wrote in message
ups.com...

tiny dancer wrote:
snipped

Thanks for the update on this one. Another one of those cases where the
death penalty should be *streamlined*. Once they are found guilty and
sentenced to die, give 'em one appeal and then stick the needle in 'em.
Just *my* opinion, of course.


Yeah, that'll bring the Hawks back to life, right? And make the
streets safer than if Skylar Deleon spends the rest of his life in
prison.

And there is no chance whatsoever that a 25 year old could grow and
change over the next two or three decades, doing good by working with
fellow inmates or convincing young people to not make the mistakes he
did. Like *some* other inmates who committed heinous crimes in their
youth have managed to do.

Nope, you say we might as well throw that life away as garbage. Must
be great to be able to see in to the future and know with such
certainty whether a person will ever be able to change and ever be able
to do any good for his fellow man. I don't know where one finds such
certainty about human nature and the future, but somehow I think it
comes from a place to which I wouldn't want to go.


Bo Raxo


You have your *opinions* and I have mine.

But there are open-minded folks out there (one or two) who might be
swayed by my arguments.

Or yours.

Some crimes are so atrocious, so
hideous, committed by sociopaths.

Exactly how hideous does it have to be to let you play God? Or a
person in a black robe? Or 12 people off the street?

You just don't get it bo.

So much for the "you have your opinion" approach.

Who gives a
flying **** about 'doing good for their fellow man'?

I do, obviously. Just because *you* don't, it isn't fair to say
*nobody* does. Obviously, *somebody* does. Or do you think I'm the
only person who is opposed to the death penalty?

Criminals like
Deleon, Joseph Duncan, Charles Ng, gave up their right to a *future* when
they cold bloodedly killed totally and completely INNOCENT VICTIMS.

I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.

The
Hawks never got to see their grandchild. Remember him? The one they were
selling their boat so they could spend time with the new grandchild. Shasta
Groene will NEVER get back her innocence lost. She will NEVER get back her
brother/s or her mom. The *victims* had no choice in the matter. Those who
perpetrated the crimes/killings did.

That justifies a severe punishment, it doesn't justify killing them.

And you live in a fantasy world. In your fantasy land, governments are
fair and wise, prosecutors restrained, everyone gets a fair trial and
nobody gets framed by crooked cops and ambitious d.a.s In your
fantasy, the death penalty is only used when it is absoloutely certain
the person did the crime. Heck, why not add that if they make a
mistake, the court will bring the dead man back to life, since you're
in a fantasy world anyway.

Out here in the real world the court system is adversarial and d.a.'s
run in elections. They go for the strongest penalties they can get
when the crime is heinous because the public demands it.

Now read that carefully: not "when guilt is unquestionable", but "when
the crime is heinous". That's a reality. That will never change. You
MUST judge the death penalty with that unchangeable fact in mind,
because if you don't, you're waving your magic wand and making the real
world disappear for fantasy land.


Bo Raxo

Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

That justifies a severe punishment, it doesn't justify killing them.

It does to me.


Now read that carefully: not "when guilt is unquestionable", but "when
the crime is heinous". That's a reality. That will never change. You
MUST judge the death penalty with that unchangeable fact in mind,
because if you don't, you're waving your magic wand and making the real
world disappear for fantasy land.

I have, and I support it. BTW, I dont' ahve a magic wand.

wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.


Bo Raxo

Bo Raxo wrote:
wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't see it that way.


Bo, I don't thinkt hat the "Killers" had any respect for life at all.
let alone their own.


Sorry pard, the only people listed here who had the right to "life,
liberty, and the persuit of happiness," were the victims, of those who
cold bloodedly forfieted their (Hawks)rights, for them.

I'm sorry, well, not really..but I can't follow your sympathy for the
criminals listed.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Bo Raxo wrote:
wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is
inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't see it that way.


Bo, I don't thinkt hat the "Killers" had any respect for life at all.
let alone their own.


Sorry pard, the only people listed here who had the right to "life,
liberty, and the persuit of happiness," were the victims, of those who
cold bloodedly forfieted their (Hawks)rights, for them.

I'm sorry, well, not really..but I can't follow your sympathy for the
criminals listed.


My practical view is that we ought to eliminate the death penalty. Costs
too much to execute them. 10-15 times the cost to keep them the rest of
their lives. That said, we can have special prisons for them. No TV, no
library, no radio. Get to sit in their cells 23 hours a day.

On 9 Nov 2006 22:59:32 -0800, "Bo Raxo" wrote:


wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:


I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.


Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.


Bo Raxo

And does that same philosophy apply to partial birth abortions?

Bo Raxo wrote:
wrote:
Bo Raxo wrote:

I don't think life is a right that can be forfeited. It is inalienable
and irrevocable, in my opinion.

Thats right! The Hawks lives were inalienable, and irrevocable in my
opinion too

Okay, ,we agree so far. So if it's wrong to take a human life (except
in self defense), then it's wrong whether the life belongs to a couple
of retirees or a couple of cold-blooded killers.

After all, wrong is wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right.

That's where you make the error, Bo. We want to take the lives of the
DeLeons and Machains, the Ted Bundys, the Charles Chat Ngs, and other
premeditated murderers because we are _protecting_ the lives of
innumerable others.

Executing these psychopaths means they can never get out of jail because
they've convinced a bleeding heart like you that they've "reformed". Or
they might escape. Ted Bundy managed to escape from jail, not once but
twice, and continued to kill after he had escaped.