"basskisser" wrote in message
ups.com...
Notice the next to the last paragraph. No, that can't be true. Every
Republican that doesn't have an advanced science degree KNOWS that
global warming and greenhouse gas emissions aren't related, and are a
natural phenomenon anyway!

Expert Says Oceans Are Turning Acidic
By ANTHONY MITCHELL, Associated Press Writer

Thursday, November 9, 2006
The world's oceans are becoming more acidic, which poses a threat to
sea life and Earth's fragile food chain, a climate expert said
Thursday.


Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon
dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming,
leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming
properly.


So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon dioxide.
How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as
much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount that
is dissolved in the ocean. While there is a slight tendency for the carbon
dioxide molecule to attract an oxygen atom in water thus freeing up the
hydrogen atom to make an acid it's EXTREMELY weak.

We must remember that life evolved in high Carbon dioxide environments and
we can thrive in levels MUCH higher than exist today.

Jeff Rigby wrote:


We must remember that life evolved in high Carbon dioxide environments and
we can thrive in levels MUCH higher than exist today.

You mean back when living to 29 was considered an "advanced age"? :-)

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jeff Rigby wrote:


We must remember that life evolved in high Carbon dioxide environments
and
we can thrive in levels MUCH higher than exist today.

You mean back when living to 29 was considered an "advanced age"? :-)


It seems to be that real lifespan has not changed much over the years.
Average has gone up, as lots of childhood diseases have been arrested. As
well as accidents do not kill as many. Due to antibiotics. And to have the
ocean turn more acidic, I think there would have to a lot of samples taken
over a huge area. Just the shear quantity of water could absorb a lot of
CO2 before a noticible pH change could be recorded.

Jeff Rigby wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
ups.com...
Notice the next to the last paragraph. No, that can't be true. Every
Republican that doesn't have an advanced science degree KNOWS that
global warming and greenhouse gas emissions aren't related, and are a
natural phenomenon anyway!

Expert Says Oceans Are Turning Acidic
By ANTHONY MITCHELL, Associated Press Writer

Thursday, November 9, 2006
The world's oceans are becoming more acidic, which poses a threat to
sea life and Earth's fragile food chain, a climate expert said
Thursday.


Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon
dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming,
leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming
properly.


So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon dioxide.
How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as
much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount that
is dissolved in the ocean.

What? You breath out billions of tons of CO2?????

Jeff Rigby wrote:

Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon
dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming,
leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming
properly.

So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon dioxide.
How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as
much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount that
is dissolved in the ocean. While there is a slight tendency for the carbon
dioxide molecule to attract an oxygen atom in water thus freeing up the
hydrogen atom to make an acid it's EXTREMELY weak.

Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes
down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved
carbon dioxide.

So far changes in the carbon dioxide levels are below the level that
may have any direct meaning for our health. Blood acts as a buffer - it
contains carbonic acid in equilibrium with bicarbonate and it is in
equilibrium with the carbon dioxide level present in the lungs, much
higher than in the surrounding air. As the blood flows continuously
through the lungs it keeps their pH at almost constant level. But if
the level of carbon dioxide in your lungs increases your urge to breath
is based on the fact that increasing amount of carbon dioxide (and
carbonic acid) lowers your blood pH.

http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-scale

Note that observed differences in blood pH are about 0.1 pH unit - 0.03
pH change will already make you pant.

Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info

wrote in message
oups.com...
Jeff Rigby wrote:

Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon
dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming,
leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming
properly.

** Vital sea life? plants that like carbon dioxide?? Which vital sea
life??

So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon
dioxide.
How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as
much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount
that
is dissolved in the ocean. While there is a slight tendency for the
carbon
dioxide molecule to attract an oxygen atom in water thus freeing up the
hydrogen atom to make an acid it's EXTREMELY weak.

Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes
down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved
carbon dioxide.

PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very
little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base.

So far changes in the carbon dioxide levels are below the level that
may have any direct meaning for our health. Blood acts as a buffer - it
contains carbonic acid in equilibrium with bicarbonate and it is in
equilibrium with the carbon dioxide level present in the lungs, much
higher than in the surrounding air. As the blood flows continuously
through the lungs it keeps their pH at almost constant level. But if
the level of carbon dioxide in your lungs increases your urge to breath
is based on the fact that increasing amount of carbon dioxide (and
carbonic acid) lowers your blood pH.

http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-scale

Note that observed differences in blood pH are about 0.1 pH unit - 0.03
pH change will already make you pant.

Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info


Thank you for that explanation. Some further information; In natural water
(with calcium and organic growths) acid changes are primarily due to organic
matter being eaten by certain types of bacteria. The buffering effect of
calcium in water or blood tends to buffer or balance the SLOW absorption of
carbon dioxide. In other words the systems in sea water like the blood act
as buffers to prevent fast change in acid levels unless it's due to the
faster activities of bacteria on organic waste.

With the higher output of the sun till 2004 and higher carbon dioxide I'd
expect much more plant growth. In most phytoplankton, it's life cycle is
short, it dies and becomes fodder for bacteria. Bacteria create co2 and
acids when they eat the dead phytoplankton.

Jeff Rigby wrote:

Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes
down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved
carbon dioxide.

PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very
little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base.

Remember that this change takes place in the presence of only about 380
ppmv of CO2 in the air. Increase amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the change will be higher. That doesn't mean carbonic acid is not a
weak one, you just don't need a strong acid to change pH when you have
solution close to pH 7.

Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info

wrote in message
oups.com...
Jeff Rigby wrote:

Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes
down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved
carbon dioxide.

PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very
little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base.

Remember that this change takes place in the presence of only about 380
ppmv of CO2 in the air. Increase amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the change will be higher. That doesn't mean carbonic acid is not a
weak one, you just don't need a strong acid to change pH when you have
solution close to pH 7.

Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info

That's like saying water is a solvent and it dissolves most compounds
because the hydrogen and oxygen molecule's geometry lends itself to tearing
apart most compounds. We should be concerned with water too. In fact it's
not the carbon dioxide that creates the acid, it's water. Without water
carbon dioxide is not an acid.

I'm not disagreeing with your comments, I find them VERY enlightening.
Following is typical household chemicals and their Ph ranking:

1 Stomach Fluids
2 Lemon Juice
3 Vinegar
4 Tomatoes
5 Coffee
6 Milk
7 Pure Water
8 Blood
9 Baking Soda
10 Borax
11 Rolaids, Tums
12 Household Ammonia
13 Bleach
14 Lye

Jeff Rigby wrote:

Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes
down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved
carbon dioxide.

PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very
little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base.

Remember that this change takes place in the presence of only about 380
ppmv of CO2 in the air. Increase amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the change will be higher. That doesn't mean carbonic acid is not a
weak one, you just don't need a strong acid to change pH when you have
solution close to pH 7.

That's like saying water is a solvent and it dissolves most compounds
because the hydrogen and oxygen molecule's geometry lends itself to tearing
apart most compounds. We should be concerned with water too. In fact it's
not the carbon dioxide that creates the acid, it's water. Without water
carbon dioxide is not an acid.

Water dissociates creating the same amounts of H+ and OH- ions. First
are connected with solution acidity, the latter with solution basicity.
Thus water is acidic and basic - to the same extent - at the same time.
That's why pure water is neutral. Almost every substance you can
dissolve will change pH of the solution, just sometimes this change is
unmeasurable. CO2 is so called acid anhdyride (just like SO3, P2O5 or
N2O5 oxides) - it reacts with water to create carbonic acid, which in
turns dissociate and acidifies the solution. Other anhydrides listed
create stable acids (known as strong mineral acids - sulfuris, nitric
and phosphoric). Trick is, carbonic acid is very unstable, thus it
concentration in water is very low, much lower than the concentration
of CO2. In fact there are papers that suggest that carbonic acid is
much stronger than it is commonly believed, just - as its concentration
is very low - measurable effect (ie pH change) is low. Trick is, if you
want to calculate pH of CO2 saturated solution you have to deal with at
least two reactions - first being carbonic acid creation, second its
dissociation. You know only how much CO2 is present and what is
solution pH - these are controllable/measurable. But the "internal
workings" - ie carbonic acid creation/carbonic acid dissociation - are
seen as one step with one equilibrium constant which can not be split
without additional data.

But that's completely OT here

I'm not disagreeing with your comments, I find them VERY enlightening.
Following is typical household chemicals and their Ph ranking:

Note: pH, not Ph.

1 Stomach Fluids
2 Lemon Juice
3 Vinegar
4 Tomatoes
5 Coffee
6 Milk
7 Pure Water
8 Blood
9 Baking Soda
10 Borax
11 Rolaids, Tums
12 Household Ammonia
13 Bleach
14 Lye

Yup. Classical list shown whenever pH scale is discussed:
http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=pH-ca...right=pH-scale
http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-scale
also wiki and many *.edu sites.

and so on I would just change blood pH to 7.4, as 8 is misleading.
Other solutions have pH that can vary, blood pH doesn't change much
(see my other post about panting somewhere in this thread).

Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info

wrote in message
oups.com...
Jeff Rigby wrote:

Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH
goes
down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved
carbon dioxide.

PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take
very
little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base.

Remember that this change takes place in the presence of only about 380
ppmv of CO2 in the air. Increase amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and
the change will be higher. That doesn't mean carbonic acid is not a
weak one, you just don't need a strong acid to change pH when you have
solution close to pH 7.

That's like saying water is a solvent and it dissolves most compounds
because the hydrogen and oxygen molecule's geometry lends itself to
tearing
apart most compounds. We should be concerned with water too. In fact
it's
not the carbon dioxide that creates the acid, it's water. Without water
carbon dioxide is not an acid.

Water dissociates creating the same amounts of H+ and OH- ions. First
are connected with solution acidity, the latter with solution basicity.
Thus water is acidic and basic - to the same extent - at the same time.
That's why pure water is neutral.

I understood that water does NOT disassociate, it's a very stable and strong
bond, EXTREMELY strong bond, it's equalibrium reaction has very few
disassocited ions. It's geometry, were oxygen and hydorgen atoms are placed
in the molecule allow the water moleule to have a strong charge at each end
where the oxygen has a - charge and the Hydrogen has + charge. It ionizes
molecules because of this GEOMETRY not because water disassociates. It's
because of this geometry that water has unique properties when frozen. Cold
water sinks but ice floats!.

Pure water can not carry a charge! Try for yourself, put two electrodes in
distilled water and try to run a current thru water, you won't get one
untill you introduce a compound that can be ionized to carry the current.
If pure water can not carry a charge then it is not disassociated. You can
crack the water molecule with enough voltage but it doesn't ionize it cracks
and releases hydrogen gas and oxygen gas.