Oceans turning acidic
 

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:01:49 GMT, Duke Nukem
wrote:

What's really causing all these hurricanes and acid increases is the
hot air about global warming and all the politicians peeing on each
other's shoes.

So why did the hurricanes lighten up *this* year? Interesting theory
but it doesn't compute. :-)

Oceans turning acidic
 

Jeff Rigby wrote:
"basskisser" wrote in message
ups.com...
Notice the next to the last paragraph. No, that can't be true. Every
Republican that doesn't have an advanced science degree KNOWS that
global warming and greenhouse gas emissions aren't related, and are a
natural phenomenon anyway!

Expert Says Oceans Are Turning Acidic
By ANTHONY MITCHELL, Associated Press Writer

Thursday, November 9, 2006
The world's oceans are becoming more acidic, which poses a threat to
sea life and Earth's fragile food chain, a climate expert said
Thursday.


Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon
dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming,
leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming
properly.


So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon dioxide.
How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as
much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount that
is dissolved in the ocean.

What? You breath out billions of tons of CO2?????

Oceans turning acidic
 

Dan wrote:
basskisser wrote:

NOYB wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
roups.com...


.... accumulation of carbon dioxide, methane and other heat-trapping
greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - byproducts of power plants,
automobiles and other fossil fuel burners.

Carbon dioxide and methane? I thought those were products of
oxygen-breathing mammals and flatuating cows.


I already predicted what you'd say.


Cite?

Infatuation....
Infatuation....
It's making Dan crazy....
It's driving him CRAAAAZY.......

Every single thread........
Every single post I make.....
Dan's right there trying to smell my ass!

Oceans turning acidic
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:01:49 GMT, Duke Nukem
wrote:

What's really causing all these hurricanes and acid increases is the
hot air about global warming and all the politicians peeing on each
other's shoes.

So why did the hurricanes lighten up *this* year? Interesting theory
but it doesn't compute. :-)

What you guys fail to understand or grasp, or perhaps you are just
sticking your head in the sand, is that there are other variables.

Oceans turning acidic Accuracy of the pH measurement
 

I was in the laboratory measuring pH when I read the article published
on the increasing pH because of global warming.

If you read the original article you would see that the difference in pH
they are talking about is in the neighborhood of 0.03 pH units. This is
insignificant and does not indicative anything except the precision of
the pH measurement and the sampling. Since the difference is the
precision of the measurements there is nothing to do with global warming.

pH is a theoretical amount of Hydrogen molecules in the solutions. In
practice pH is a measure of the impurities in water, and is
significantly affected by the temperature of the solution. It is also
affected by the actual materials in the solutions as the the amount of
Hydrogen ions are affected by the interactions of the compounds in the
solutions.

pH is measured using the electrical properties of the solution. Because
of the quality of the electronics the precision of the measurements are
several powers more accurate than the precision of the chemical
properties that are being measured.

The electronics are standardized against two reference solutions. The
accuracy of these solutions is about +/- 0.01 based on the suppliers of
the standards. See a typical specification sheet for one of those
standards is at

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...sp?sku=0594242

In practice the precision of laboratory measurements of pH is about +/-
0.03 one one sample. When you take dozens of samples there is
additional error. So you can see the differences they are trying to get
funding to study is nothing but the precision of the measurement of the
pH. (If you google you can find many papers on the laboratory precision
of pH measurements.)

Because of the inaccuracy in pH, the specifications for the drugs you
take are usually stated to 0.1 pH units.

Now, if someone can explain to me how they can say there is a 0.4 degree
change in the mean temperature of the earth when the daily temperature
difference across the surface of the earth is about 100 degrees. I don't
know much about temperature reading and statistics.


scbafreak via BoatKB.com wrote:
yes, they had to find some other "threat"


I'm Curious. Who are "They" and what could "They" possibly have to gain
from making this stuff up?

Oceans turning acidic Accuracy of the pH measurement
 

keith_nuttle wrote:
I was in the laboratory measuring pH when I read the article published
on the increasing pH because of global warming.

If you read the original article you would see that the difference in pH
they are talking about is in the neighborhood of 0.03 pH units. This is
insignificant and does not indicative anything except the precision of
the pH measurement and the sampling. Since the difference is the
precision of the measurements there is nothing to do with global warming.

pH is a theoretical amount of Hydrogen molecules in the solutions. In
practice pH is a measure of the impurities in water, and is
significantly affected by the temperature of the solution. It is also
affected by the actual materials in the solutions as the the amount of
Hydrogen ions are affected by the interactions of the compounds in the
solutions.

pH is measured using the electrical properties of the solution. Because
of the quality of the electronics the precision of the measurements are
several powers more accurate than the precision of the chemical
properties that are being measured.

The electronics are standardized against two reference solutions. The
accuracy of these solutions is about +/- 0.01 based on the suppliers of
the standards. See a typical specification sheet for one of those
standards is at

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...sp?sku=0594242

In practice the precision of laboratory measurements of pH is about +/-
0.03 one one sample. When you take dozens of samples there is
additional error. So you can see the differences they are trying to get
funding to study is nothing but the precision of the measurement of the
pH. (If you google you can find many papers on the laboratory precision
of pH measurements.)

Because of the inaccuracy in pH, the specifications for the drugs you
take are usually stated to 0.1 pH units.

Now, if someone can explain to me how they can say there is a 0.4 degree
change in the mean temperature of the earth when the daily temperature
difference across the surface of the earth is about 100 degrees. I don't
know much about temperature reading and statistics.


It isn't insignificant when you think of it in global terms. The same
thing with temperature.

Oceans turning acidic Accuracy of the pH measurement
 

Insignificant in this case was used in a statistical sense. The
difference they are attributing to global warming is smaller than the
error in the instruments they are using for the measurement.

In other words they would see greater differences on multiple
measurements on the same solution in the lab, than the difference they
are attribute to global warming,

There are no instruments capable of detecting the difference attributed
to global warming being made today.

It is like measuring teaspoons size quantities with a gallon container.

Or setting up your table saw with a cloth sewing tape measure.


basskisser wrote:
keith_nuttle wrote:

I was in the laboratory measuring pH when I read the article published
on the increasing pH because of global warming.

If you read the original article you would see that the difference in pH
they are talking about is in the neighborhood of 0.03 pH units. This is
insignificant and does not indicative anything except the precision of
the pH measurement and the sampling. Since the difference is the
precision of the measurements there is nothing to do with global warming.

pH is a theoretical amount of Hydrogen molecules in the solutions. In
practice pH is a measure of the impurities in water, and is
significantly affected by the temperature of the solution. It is also
affected by the actual materials in the solutions as the the amount of
Hydrogen ions are affected by the interactions of the compounds in the
solutions.

pH is measured using the electrical properties of the solution. Because
of the quality of the electronics the precision of the measurements are
several powers more accurate than the precision of the chemical
properties that are being measured.

The electronics are standardized against two reference solutions. The
accuracy of these solutions is about +/- 0.01 based on the suppliers of
the standards. See a typical specification sheet for one of those
standards is at

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...sp?sku=0594242

In practice the precision of laboratory measurements of pH is about +/-
0.03 one one sample. When you take dozens of samples there is
additional error. So you can see the differences they are trying to get
funding to study is nothing but the precision of the measurement of the
pH. (If you google you can find many papers on the laboratory precision
of pH measurements.)

Because of the inaccuracy in pH, the specifications for the drugs you
take are usually stated to 0.1 pH units.

Now, if someone can explain to me how they can say there is a 0.4 degree
change in the mean temperature of the earth when the daily temperature
difference across the surface of the earth is about 100 degrees. I don't
know much about temperature reading and statistics.



It isn't insignificant when you think of it in global terms. The same
thing with temperature.

Oceans turning acidic
 

Jeff Rigby wrote:

Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon
dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming,
leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming
properly.

So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon dioxide.
How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as
much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount that
is dissolved in the ocean. While there is a slight tendency for the carbon
dioxide molecule to attract an oxygen atom in water thus freeing up the
hydrogen atom to make an acid it's EXTREMELY weak.

Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes
down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved
carbon dioxide.

So far changes in the carbon dioxide levels are below the level that
may have any direct meaning for our health. Blood acts as a buffer - it
contains carbonic acid in equilibrium with bicarbonate and it is in
equilibrium with the carbon dioxide level present in the lungs, much
higher than in the surrounding air. As the blood flows continuously
through the lungs it keeps their pH at almost constant level. But if
the level of carbon dioxide in your lungs increases your urge to breath
is based on the fact that increasing amount of carbon dioxide (and
carbonic acid) lowers your blood pH.

http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-scale

Note that observed differences in blood pH are about 0.1 pH unit - 0.03
pH change will already make you pant.

Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info

Oceans turning acidic Accuracy of the pH measurement
 

keith_nuttle wrote:

If you read the original article you would see that the difference in pH
they are talking about is in the neighborhood of 0.03 pH units. This is
insignificant and does not indicative anything except the precision of
the pH measurement and the sampling. Since the difference is the
precision of the measurements there is nothing to do with global warming.

In a controlled laboratory environement you can measure with .001
precision. But that's not easy.

pH is a theoretical amount of Hydrogen molecules in the solutions. In
practice pH is a measure of the impurities in water, and is
significantly affected by the temperature of the solution. It is also
affected by the actual materials in the solutions as the the amount of
Hydrogen ions are affected by the interactions of the compounds in the
solutions.

You are mixing several things together. pH is a negative logarithm of
H+ ions activity in water. Period. Presence of other substances may
change this activity, but you are not measuring these substances, you
are measuring pH.

pH is measured using the electrical properties of the solution. Because
of the quality of the electronics the precision of the measurements are
several powers more accurate than the precision of the chemical
properties that are being measured.

No idea what you mean by "precision of chemical properties". No such
animal AFAIK.

The electronics are standardized against two reference solutions. The
accuracy of these solutions is about +/- 0.01 based on the suppliers of
the standards. See a typical specification sheet for one of those
standards is at

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...sp?sku=0594242

http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-electrod...ration-buffers

Calibration buffers have pH measured with +/- 0.001 accuracy, and
that's the real limit of pH measurements. Hard to reach, but it can be
done.

In practice the precision of laboratory measurements of pH is about +/-
0.03 one one sample. When you take dozens of samples there is
additional error. So you can see the differences they are trying to get
funding to study is nothing but the precision of the measurement of the
pH. (If you google you can find many papers on the laboratory precision
of pH measurements.)

See above. Attainable limit is 30 times lower than you suggest. 0.03 is
a good accuracy in the standard lab environement.

Now, if someone can explain to me how they can say there is a 0.4 degree
change in the mean temperature of the earth when the daily temperature
difference across the surface of the earth is about 100 degrees. I don't
know much about temperature reading and statistics.

Simplest approach will be to average all measurement done by all
meterological services in the whole world during whole year. As they
stick to precise termometers and to precise procedures, data are
comparable on a year to year basis (or - more general - any period to
period basis). And I suppose the real thing is done in similar way,
probably with weighted averaging to account for non-uniform
distribution of measuring points.

Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info

Oceans turning acidic
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
Jeff Rigby wrote:

Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon
dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming,
leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming
properly.

** Vital sea life? plants that like carbon dioxide?? Which vital sea
life??

So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon
dioxide.
How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as
much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount
that
is dissolved in the ocean. While there is a slight tendency for the
carbon
dioxide molecule to attract an oxygen atom in water thus freeing up the
hydrogen atom to make an acid it's EXTREMELY weak.

Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes
down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved
carbon dioxide.

PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very
little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base.

So far changes in the carbon dioxide levels are below the level that
may have any direct meaning for our health. Blood acts as a buffer - it
contains carbonic acid in equilibrium with bicarbonate and it is in
equilibrium with the carbon dioxide level present in the lungs, much
higher than in the surrounding air. As the blood flows continuously
through the lungs it keeps their pH at almost constant level. But if
the level of carbon dioxide in your lungs increases your urge to breath
is based on the fact that increasing amount of carbon dioxide (and
carbonic acid) lowers your blood pH.

http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-scale

Note that observed differences in blood pH are about 0.1 pH unit - 0.03
pH change will already make you pant.

Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com
http://www.ph-meter.info


Thank you for that explanation. Some further information; In natural water
(with calcium and organic growths) acid changes are primarily due to organic
matter being eaten by certain types of bacteria. The buffering effect of
calcium in water or blood tends to buffer or balance the SLOW absorption of
carbon dioxide. In other words the systems in sea water like the blood act
as buffers to prevent fast change in acid levels unless it's due to the
faster activities of bacteria on organic waste.

With the higher output of the sun till 2004 and higher carbon dioxide I'd
expect much more plant growth. In most phytoplankton, it's life cycle is
short, it dies and becomes fodder for bacteria. Bacteria create co2 and
acids when they eat the dead phytoplankton.