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Oceans turning acidic
Notice the next to the last paragraph. No, that can't be true. Every
Republican that doesn't have an advanced science degree KNOWS that global warming and greenhouse gas emissions aren't related, and are a natural phenomenon anyway! Expert Says Oceans Are Turning Acidic By ANTHONY MITCHELL, Associated Press Writer Thursday, November 9, 2006 Printable Version Email This Article (11-09) 10:43 PST NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) -- The world's oceans are becoming more acidic, which poses a threat to sea life and Earth's fragile food chain, a climate expert said Thursday. Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming, leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming properly. "The oceans are rapidly changing," said professor Stefan Rahmstorf on the sidelines of a U.N. conference on climate change that has drawn delegates from more than 100 countries to Kenya. "Ocean acidification is a major threat to marine organisms." Fish stocks and the world's coral reefs could also be hit while acidification risks "fundamentally altering" the food chain, he said. In a study titled "The Future Oceans - Warming Up, Rising High, Turning Sour," Rahmstorf and eight other scientists warned that the world is witnessing, on a global scale, problems similar to the acid rain phenomenon of the 1970s and 1980s. Rahmstorf, the head of Germany's Potsdam Institute for Research into Climatic Effects, says more research is urgently needed to assess the impact of ocean acidification. David Santillo, a senior scientist at Greenpeace's Research Laboratories in Exeter, Britain, said it had come as a shock to scientists that the oceans are turning acidic because of carbon dioxide emissions. "The knock on effect for humans is that some of these marine resources that we rely on may not be available in the future," the marine biologist, who was not involved in Rahmstorf's study, told The Associated Press by telephone. Rahmstorf also reiterated warnings of rising sea levels caused by global warming, saying that in 70 years, temperature increases will lead more frequent storms with 200 million people threatened by floods. Scientists blame the past century's one-degree rise in average global temperatures at least in part for the accumulation of carbon dioxide, methane and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - byproducts of power plants, automobiles and other fossil fuel burners. The 1997 Kyoto accord requires 35 industrialized countries to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions by 5 percent below 1990 levels by 2012. The Kyoto countries meeting in Nairobi are continuing talks on what kind of emissions targets and timetables should follow 2012 |
Oceans turning acidic
"basskisser" wrote in message ups.com... .... accumulation of carbon dioxide, methane and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - byproducts of power plants, automobiles and other fossil fuel burners. Carbon dioxide and methane? I thought those were products of oxygen-breathing mammals and flatuating cows. |
Oceans turning acidic
NOYB wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message ups.com... .... accumulation of carbon dioxide, methane and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - byproducts of power plants, automobiles and other fossil fuel burners. Carbon dioxide and methane? I thought those were products of oxygen-breathing mammals and flatuating cows. I already predicted what you'd say. |
Oceans turning acidic
"basskisser" wrote in message ups.com... Notice the next to the last paragraph. No, that can't be true. Every Republican that doesn't have an advanced science degree KNOWS that global warming and greenhouse gas emissions aren't related, and are a natural phenomenon anyway! Expert Says Oceans Are Turning Acidic By ANTHONY MITCHELL, Associated Press Writer Thursday, November 9, 2006 The world's oceans are becoming more acidic, which poses a threat to sea life and Earth's fragile food chain, a climate expert said Thursday. Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming, leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming properly. So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon dioxide. How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount that is dissolved in the ocean. While there is a slight tendency for the carbon dioxide molecule to attract an oxygen atom in water thus freeing up the hydrogen atom to make an acid it's EXTREMELY weak. We must remember that life evolved in high Carbon dioxide environments and we can thrive in levels MUCH higher than exist today. |
Oceans turning acidic
"basskisser" wrote in message ups.com... NOYB wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message ups.com... .... accumulation of carbon dioxide, methane and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - byproducts of power plants, automobiles and other fossil fuel burners. Carbon dioxide and methane? I thought those were products of oxygen-breathing mammals and flatuating cows. I already predicted what you'd say. yes, they had to find some other "threat" since global temps started dropping after 2004. It's global acid, that's why those coral atolls are sinking, they are dissolving. |
Oceans turning acidic
yes, they had to find some other "threat"
I'm Curious. Who are "They" and what could "They" possibly have to gain from making this stuff up? -- Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com |
Oceans turning acidic
basskisser wrote:
NOYB wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message roups.com... .... accumulation of carbon dioxide, methane and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - byproducts of power plants, automobiles and other fossil fuel burners. Carbon dioxide and methane? I thought those were products of oxygen-breathing mammals and flatuating cows. I already predicted what you'd say. Cite? |
Oceans turning acidic
Jeff Rigby wrote: We must remember that life evolved in high Carbon dioxide environments and we can thrive in levels MUCH higher than exist today. You mean back when living to 29 was considered an "advanced age"? :-) |
Oceans turning acidic
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message oups.com... Jeff Rigby wrote: We must remember that life evolved in high Carbon dioxide environments and we can thrive in levels MUCH higher than exist today. You mean back when living to 29 was considered an "advanced age"? :-) It seems to be that real lifespan has not changed much over the years. Average has gone up, as lots of childhood diseases have been arrested. As well as accidents do not kill as many. Due to antibiotics. And to have the ocean turn more acidic, I think there would have to a lot of samples taken over a huge area. Just the shear quantity of water could absorb a lot of CO2 before a noticible pH change could be recorded. |
Oceans turning acidic
"Duke Nukem" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 01:52:16 GMT, "Calif Bill" wrote: "Chuck Gould" wrote in message groups.com... Jeff Rigby wrote: We must remember that life evolved in high Carbon dioxide environments and we can thrive in levels MUCH higher than exist today. You mean back when living to 29 was considered an "advanced age"? :-) It seems to be that real lifespan has not changed much over the years. Average has gone up, as lots of childhood diseases have been arrested. As well as accidents do not kill as many. Due to antibiotics. And to have the ocean turn more acidic, I think there would have to a lot of samples taken over a huge area. Just the shear quantity of water could absorb a lot of CO2 before a noticible pH change could be recorded. What's really causing all these hurricanes and acid increases is the hot air about global warming and all the politicians peeing on each other's shoes. I would not mind the pols peeing on each other, it is us mortals that are getting splashed a lot. |
Oceans turning acidic
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:01:49 GMT, Duke Nukem
wrote: What's really causing all these hurricanes and acid increases is the hot air about global warming and all the politicians peeing on each other's shoes. So why did the hurricanes lighten up *this* year? Interesting theory but it doesn't compute. :-) |
Oceans turning acidic
Jeff Rigby wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message ups.com... Notice the next to the last paragraph. No, that can't be true. Every Republican that doesn't have an advanced science degree KNOWS that global warming and greenhouse gas emissions aren't related, and are a natural phenomenon anyway! Expert Says Oceans Are Turning Acidic By ANTHONY MITCHELL, Associated Press Writer Thursday, November 9, 2006 The world's oceans are becoming more acidic, which poses a threat to sea life and Earth's fragile food chain, a climate expert said Thursday. Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming, leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming properly. So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon dioxide. How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount that is dissolved in the ocean. What? You breath out billions of tons of CO2????? |
Oceans turning acidic
Dan wrote: basskisser wrote: NOYB wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message roups.com... .... accumulation of carbon dioxide, methane and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - byproducts of power plants, automobiles and other fossil fuel burners. Carbon dioxide and methane? I thought those were products of oxygen-breathing mammals and flatuating cows. I already predicted what you'd say. Cite? Infatuation.... Infatuation.... It's making Dan crazy.... It's driving him CRAAAAZY....... Every single thread........ Every single post I make..... Dan's right there trying to smell my ass! |
Oceans turning acidic
Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:01:49 GMT, Duke Nukem wrote: What's really causing all these hurricanes and acid increases is the hot air about global warming and all the politicians peeing on each other's shoes. So why did the hurricanes lighten up *this* year? Interesting theory but it doesn't compute. :-) What you guys fail to understand or grasp, or perhaps you are just sticking your head in the sand, is that there are other variables. |
Oceans turning acidic Accuracy of the pH measurement
I was in the laboratory measuring pH when I read the article published
on the increasing pH because of global warming. If you read the original article you would see that the difference in pH they are talking about is in the neighborhood of 0.03 pH units. This is insignificant and does not indicative anything except the precision of the pH measurement and the sampling. Since the difference is the precision of the measurements there is nothing to do with global warming. pH is a theoretical amount of Hydrogen molecules in the solutions. In practice pH is a measure of the impurities in water, and is significantly affected by the temperature of the solution. It is also affected by the actual materials in the solutions as the the amount of Hydrogen ions are affected by the interactions of the compounds in the solutions. pH is measured using the electrical properties of the solution. Because of the quality of the electronics the precision of the measurements are several powers more accurate than the precision of the chemical properties that are being measured. The electronics are standardized against two reference solutions. The accuracy of these solutions is about +/- 0.01 based on the suppliers of the standards. See a typical specification sheet for one of those standards is at http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...sp?sku=0594242 In practice the precision of laboratory measurements of pH is about +/- 0.03 one one sample. When you take dozens of samples there is additional error. So you can see the differences they are trying to get funding to study is nothing but the precision of the measurement of the pH. (If you google you can find many papers on the laboratory precision of pH measurements.) Because of the inaccuracy in pH, the specifications for the drugs you take are usually stated to 0.1 pH units. Now, if someone can explain to me how they can say there is a 0.4 degree change in the mean temperature of the earth when the daily temperature difference across the surface of the earth is about 100 degrees. I don't know much about temperature reading and statistics. scbafreak via BoatKB.com wrote: yes, they had to find some other "threat" I'm Curious. Who are "They" and what could "They" possibly have to gain from making this stuff up? |
Oceans turning acidic Accuracy of the pH measurement
keith_nuttle wrote: I was in the laboratory measuring pH when I read the article published on the increasing pH because of global warming. If you read the original article you would see that the difference in pH they are talking about is in the neighborhood of 0.03 pH units. This is insignificant and does not indicative anything except the precision of the pH measurement and the sampling. Since the difference is the precision of the measurements there is nothing to do with global warming. pH is a theoretical amount of Hydrogen molecules in the solutions. In practice pH is a measure of the impurities in water, and is significantly affected by the temperature of the solution. It is also affected by the actual materials in the solutions as the the amount of Hydrogen ions are affected by the interactions of the compounds in the solutions. pH is measured using the electrical properties of the solution. Because of the quality of the electronics the precision of the measurements are several powers more accurate than the precision of the chemical properties that are being measured. The electronics are standardized against two reference solutions. The accuracy of these solutions is about +/- 0.01 based on the suppliers of the standards. See a typical specification sheet for one of those standards is at http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...sp?sku=0594242 In practice the precision of laboratory measurements of pH is about +/- 0.03 one one sample. When you take dozens of samples there is additional error. So you can see the differences they are trying to get funding to study is nothing but the precision of the measurement of the pH. (If you google you can find many papers on the laboratory precision of pH measurements.) Because of the inaccuracy in pH, the specifications for the drugs you take are usually stated to 0.1 pH units. Now, if someone can explain to me how they can say there is a 0.4 degree change in the mean temperature of the earth when the daily temperature difference across the surface of the earth is about 100 degrees. I don't know much about temperature reading and statistics. It isn't insignificant when you think of it in global terms. The same thing with temperature. |
Oceans turning acidic Accuracy of the pH measurement
Insignificant in this case was used in a statistical sense. The
difference they are attributing to global warming is smaller than the error in the instruments they are using for the measurement. In other words they would see greater differences on multiple measurements on the same solution in the lab, than the difference they are attribute to global warming, There are no instruments capable of detecting the difference attributed to global warming being made today. It is like measuring teaspoons size quantities with a gallon container. Or setting up your table saw with a cloth sewing tape measure. basskisser wrote: keith_nuttle wrote: I was in the laboratory measuring pH when I read the article published on the increasing pH because of global warming. If you read the original article you would see that the difference in pH they are talking about is in the neighborhood of 0.03 pH units. This is insignificant and does not indicative anything except the precision of the pH measurement and the sampling. Since the difference is the precision of the measurements there is nothing to do with global warming. pH is a theoretical amount of Hydrogen molecules in the solutions. In practice pH is a measure of the impurities in water, and is significantly affected by the temperature of the solution. It is also affected by the actual materials in the solutions as the the amount of Hydrogen ions are affected by the interactions of the compounds in the solutions. pH is measured using the electrical properties of the solution. Because of the quality of the electronics the precision of the measurements are several powers more accurate than the precision of the chemical properties that are being measured. The electronics are standardized against two reference solutions. The accuracy of these solutions is about +/- 0.01 based on the suppliers of the standards. See a typical specification sheet for one of those standards is at http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...sp?sku=0594242 In practice the precision of laboratory measurements of pH is about +/- 0.03 one one sample. When you take dozens of samples there is additional error. So you can see the differences they are trying to get funding to study is nothing but the precision of the measurement of the pH. (If you google you can find many papers on the laboratory precision of pH measurements.) Because of the inaccuracy in pH, the specifications for the drugs you take are usually stated to 0.1 pH units. Now, if someone can explain to me how they can say there is a 0.4 degree change in the mean temperature of the earth when the daily temperature difference across the surface of the earth is about 100 degrees. I don't know much about temperature reading and statistics. It isn't insignificant when you think of it in global terms. The same thing with temperature. |
Oceans turning acidic
Jeff Rigby wrote:
Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming, leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming properly. So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon dioxide. How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount that is dissolved in the ocean. While there is a slight tendency for the carbon dioxide molecule to attract an oxygen atom in water thus freeing up the hydrogen atom to make an acid it's EXTREMELY weak. Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved carbon dioxide. So far changes in the carbon dioxide levels are below the level that may have any direct meaning for our health. Blood acts as a buffer - it contains carbonic acid in equilibrium with bicarbonate and it is in equilibrium with the carbon dioxide level present in the lungs, much higher than in the surrounding air. As the blood flows continuously through the lungs it keeps their pH at almost constant level. But if the level of carbon dioxide in your lungs increases your urge to breath is based on the fact that increasing amount of carbon dioxide (and carbonic acid) lowers your blood pH. http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-scale Note that observed differences in blood pH are about 0.1 pH unit - 0.03 pH change will already make you pant. Borek -- http://www.chembuddy.com http://www.ph-meter.info |
Oceans turning acidic Accuracy of the pH measurement
keith_nuttle wrote:
If you read the original article you would see that the difference in pH they are talking about is in the neighborhood of 0.03 pH units. This is insignificant and does not indicative anything except the precision of the pH measurement and the sampling. Since the difference is the precision of the measurements there is nothing to do with global warming. In a controlled laboratory environement you can measure with .001 precision. But that's not easy. pH is a theoretical amount of Hydrogen molecules in the solutions. In practice pH is a measure of the impurities in water, and is significantly affected by the temperature of the solution. It is also affected by the actual materials in the solutions as the the amount of Hydrogen ions are affected by the interactions of the compounds in the solutions. You are mixing several things together. pH is a negative logarithm of H+ ions activity in water. Period. Presence of other substances may change this activity, but you are not measuring these substances, you are measuring pH. pH is measured using the electrical properties of the solution. Because of the quality of the electronics the precision of the measurements are several powers more accurate than the precision of the chemical properties that are being measured. No idea what you mean by "precision of chemical properties". No such animal AFAIK. The electronics are standardized against two reference solutions. The accuracy of these solutions is about +/- 0.01 based on the suppliers of the standards. See a typical specification sheet for one of those standards is at http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/pr...sp?sku=0594242 http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-electrod...ration-buffers Calibration buffers have pH measured with +/- 0.001 accuracy, and that's the real limit of pH measurements. Hard to reach, but it can be done. In practice the precision of laboratory measurements of pH is about +/- 0.03 one one sample. When you take dozens of samples there is additional error. So you can see the differences they are trying to get funding to study is nothing but the precision of the measurement of the pH. (If you google you can find many papers on the laboratory precision of pH measurements.) See above. Attainable limit is 30 times lower than you suggest. 0.03 is a good accuracy in the standard lab environement. Now, if someone can explain to me how they can say there is a 0.4 degree change in the mean temperature of the earth when the daily temperature difference across the surface of the earth is about 100 degrees. I don't know much about temperature reading and statistics. Simplest approach will be to average all measurement done by all meterological services in the whole world during whole year. As they stick to precise termometers and to precise procedures, data are comparable on a year to year basis (or - more general - any period to period basis). And I suppose the real thing is done in similar way, probably with weighted averaging to account for non-uniform distribution of measuring points. Borek -- http://www.chembuddy.com http://www.ph-meter.info |
Oceans turning acidic
wrote in message oups.com... Jeff Rigby wrote: Oceans have already absorbed a third of the world's emissions of carbon dioxide, one of the heat-trapping gases blamed for global warming, leading to acidification that prevents vital sea life from forming properly. ** Vital sea life? plants that like carbon dioxide?? Which vital sea life?? So we should expect burning lungs for those who breathe out carbon dioxide. How in the world does anyone believe this bunk. Your breath has twice as much carbon dioxide as there is in the atmosphere/many times the amount that is dissolved in the ocean. While there is a slight tendency for the carbon dioxide molecule to attract an oxygen atom in water thus freeing up the hydrogen atom to make an acid it's EXTREMELY weak. Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved carbon dioxide. PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base. So far changes in the carbon dioxide levels are below the level that may have any direct meaning for our health. Blood acts as a buffer - it contains carbonic acid in equilibrium with bicarbonate and it is in equilibrium with the carbon dioxide level present in the lungs, much higher than in the surrounding air. As the blood flows continuously through the lungs it keeps their pH at almost constant level. But if the level of carbon dioxide in your lungs increases your urge to breath is based on the fact that increasing amount of carbon dioxide (and carbonic acid) lowers your blood pH. http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-scale Note that observed differences in blood pH are about 0.1 pH unit - 0.03 pH change will already make you pant. Borek -- http://www.chembuddy.com http://www.ph-meter.info Thank you for that explanation. Some further information; In natural water (with calcium and organic growths) acid changes are primarily due to organic matter being eaten by certain types of bacteria. The buffering effect of calcium in water or blood tends to buffer or balance the SLOW absorption of carbon dioxide. In other words the systems in sea water like the blood act as buffers to prevent fast change in acid levels unless it's due to the faster activities of bacteria on organic waste. With the higher output of the sun till 2004 and higher carbon dioxide I'd expect much more plant growth. In most phytoplankton, it's life cycle is short, it dies and becomes fodder for bacteria. Bacteria create co2 and acids when they eat the dead phytoplankton. |
Oceans turning acidic
Jeff Rigby wrote:
Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved carbon dioxide. PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base. Remember that this change takes place in the presence of only about 380 ppmv of CO2 in the air. Increase amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and the change will be higher. That doesn't mean carbonic acid is not a weak one, you just don't need a strong acid to change pH when you have solution close to pH 7. Borek -- http://www.chembuddy.com http://www.ph-meter.info |
Oceans turning acidic
basskisser wrote:
Dan wrote: basskisser wrote: NOYB wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message egroups.com... .... accumulation of carbon dioxide, methane and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - byproducts of power plants, automobiles and other fossil fuel burners. Carbon dioxide and methane? I thought those were products of oxygen-breathing mammals and flatuating cows. I already predicted what you'd say. Cite? Infatuation.... Infatuation.... It's making Dan crazy.... It's driving him CRAAAAZY....... Every single thread........ Every single post I make..... Dan's right there trying to smell my ass! Now that's CHILDISH!! |
Oceans turning acidic
"Dan" wrote in message nk.net... basskisser wrote: Dan wrote: basskisser wrote: NOYB wrote: "basskisser" wrote in message legroups.com... .... accumulation of carbon dioxide, methane and other heat-trapping greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - byproducts of power plants, automobiles and other fossil fuel burners. Carbon dioxide and methane? I thought those were products of oxygen-breathing mammals and flatuating cows. I already predicted what you'd say. Cite? Infatuation.... Infatuation.... It's making Dan crazy.... It's driving him CRAAAAZY....... Every single thread........ Every single post I make..... Dan's right there trying to smell my ass! Now that's CHILDISH!! I have the idiot KF'd.. I suspect he posts comments to my posts here on a regular basis. Perhaps you can confirm this. If my hunch is correct, he is living in a glass house. ;-) |
Oceans turning acidic
wrote in message oups.com... Jeff Rigby wrote: Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved carbon dioxide. PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base. Remember that this change takes place in the presence of only about 380 ppmv of CO2 in the air. Increase amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and the change will be higher. That doesn't mean carbonic acid is not a weak one, you just don't need a strong acid to change pH when you have solution close to pH 7. Borek -- http://www.chembuddy.com http://www.ph-meter.info That's like saying water is a solvent and it dissolves most compounds because the hydrogen and oxygen molecule's geometry lends itself to tearing apart most compounds. We should be concerned with water too. In fact it's not the carbon dioxide that creates the acid, it's water. Without water carbon dioxide is not an acid. I'm not disagreeing with your comments, I find them VERY enlightening. Following is typical household chemicals and their Ph ranking: 1 Stomach Fluids 2 Lemon Juice 3 Vinegar 4 Tomatoes 5 Coffee 6 Milk 7 Pure Water 8 Blood 9 Baking Soda 10 Borax 11 Rolaids, Tums 12 Household Ammonia 13 Bleach 14 Lye |
Oceans turning acidic
Jeff Rigby wrote:
Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved carbon dioxide. PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base. Remember that this change takes place in the presence of only about 380 ppmv of CO2 in the air. Increase amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and the change will be higher. That doesn't mean carbonic acid is not a weak one, you just don't need a strong acid to change pH when you have solution close to pH 7. That's like saying water is a solvent and it dissolves most compounds because the hydrogen and oxygen molecule's geometry lends itself to tearing apart most compounds. We should be concerned with water too. In fact it's not the carbon dioxide that creates the acid, it's water. Without water carbon dioxide is not an acid. Water dissociates creating the same amounts of H+ and OH- ions. First are connected with solution acidity, the latter with solution basicity. Thus water is acidic and basic - to the same extent - at the same time. That's why pure water is neutral. Almost every substance you can dissolve will change pH of the solution, just sometimes this change is unmeasurable. CO2 is so called acid anhdyride (just like SO3, P2O5 or N2O5 oxides) - it reacts with water to create carbonic acid, which in turns dissociate and acidifies the solution. Other anhydrides listed create stable acids (known as strong mineral acids - sulfuris, nitric and phosphoric). Trick is, carbonic acid is very unstable, thus it concentration in water is very low, much lower than the concentration of CO2. In fact there are papers that suggest that carbonic acid is much stronger than it is commonly believed, just - as its concentration is very low - measurable effect (ie pH change) is low. Trick is, if you want to calculate pH of CO2 saturated solution you have to deal with at least two reactions - first being carbonic acid creation, second its dissociation. You know only how much CO2 is present and what is solution pH - these are controllable/measurable. But the "internal workings" - ie carbonic acid creation/carbonic acid dissociation - are seen as one step with one equilibrium constant which can not be split without additional data. But that's completely OT here :) I'm not disagreeing with your comments, I find them VERY enlightening. Following is typical household chemicals and their Ph ranking: Note: pH, not Ph. 1 Stomach Fluids 2 Lemon Juice 3 Vinegar 4 Tomatoes 5 Coffee 6 Milk 7 Pure Water 8 Blood 9 Baking Soda 10 Borax 11 Rolaids, Tums 12 Household Ammonia 13 Bleach 14 Lye Yup. Classical list shown whenever pH scale is discussed: http://www.chembuddy.com/?left=pH-ca...right=pH-scale http://www.ph-meter.info/pH-scale also wiki and many *.edu sites. and so on :) I would just change blood pH to 7.4, as 8 is misleading. Other solutions have pH that can vary, blood pH doesn't change much (see my other post about panting somewhere in this thread). Borek -- http://www.chembuddy.com http://www.ph-meter.info |
Oceans turning acidic
wrote in message oups.com... Jeff Rigby wrote: Not that weak. If you take a distilled water and left it open pH goes down from 7 to about 5.7 - just because of the presence of dissolved carbon dioxide. PH changes from 7, in other words from 5-9 in distilled water take very little acid or base, in other words it's a very weak acid or base. Remember that this change takes place in the presence of only about 380 ppmv of CO2 in the air. Increase amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and the change will be higher. That doesn't mean carbonic acid is not a weak one, you just don't need a strong acid to change pH when you have solution close to pH 7. That's like saying water is a solvent and it dissolves most compounds because the hydrogen and oxygen molecule's geometry lends itself to tearing apart most compounds. We should be concerned with water too. In fact it's not the carbon dioxide that creates the acid, it's water. Without water carbon dioxide is not an acid. Water dissociates creating the same amounts of H+ and OH- ions. First are connected with solution acidity, the latter with solution basicity. Thus water is acidic and basic - to the same extent - at the same time. That's why pure water is neutral. I understood that water does NOT disassociate, it's a very stable and strong bond, EXTREMELY strong bond, it's equalibrium reaction has very few disassocited ions. It's geometry, were oxygen and hydorgen atoms are placed in the molecule allow the water moleule to have a strong charge at each end where the oxygen has a - charge and the Hydrogen has + charge. It ionizes molecules because of this GEOMETRY not because water disassociates. It's because of this geometry that water has unique properties when frozen. Cold water sinks but ice floats!. Pure water can not carry a charge! Try for yourself, put two electrodes in distilled water and try to run a current thru water, you won't get one untill you introduce a compound that can be ionized to carry the current. If pure water can not carry a charge then it is not disassociated. You can crack the water molecule with enough voltage but it doesn't ionize it cracks and releases hydrogen gas and oxygen gas. |
Oceans turning acidic
Jeff Rigby wrote:
Water dissociates creating the same amounts of H+ and OH- ions. First are connected with solution acidity, the latter with solution basicity. Thus water is acidic and basic - to the same extent - at the same time. That's why pure water is neutral. I understood that water does NOT disassociate, it's a very stable and strong bond, EXTREMELY strong bond, it's equalibrium reaction has very few disassocited ions. H2O - H+ + OH- You are right that equilibrium for this reaction is far to the left - ie water is dissociated only slightly, but nonetheless it is dissociated and it can't be neglected whenever we are talking about pH of solutions, especially those close to the neutral. Note, that pH = -log([H+]) - if pure water has pH = 7 there MUST be some free H+ ions in the solution, and they come just from water autodissociation. If you think that 10^-7 is so low concentration that it can be neglected, think about pH indicators - some of them change color just because concentration of H+ changes from 10^-7 to 10^-8 mol/L. So these pretty small changes in concentrations can produce large effects. Which is - BTW - one of the reasons why some people want to precisely monitor pH of oceans :) It's geometry, were oxygen and hydorgen atoms are placed in the molecule allow the water moleule to have a strong charge at each end where the oxygen has a - charge and the Hydrogen has + charge. Yep, water molecule is a dipole. It ionizes molecules because of this GEOMETRY not because water disassociates. These are two completely different things. Autodissociation of water is one thing, dissociation of salts - induced by water properties - is second thing. Don't mix them. Pure water can not carry a charge! Try for yourself, put two electrodes in distilled water and try to run a current thru water, you won't get one untill you introduce a compound that can be ionized to carry the current. If pure water can not carry a charge then it is not disassociated. You can crack the water molecule with enough voltage but it doesn't ionize it cracks and releases hydrogen gas and oxygen gas. Ultrapure water has very high resistivity, something like 18MOhm/cm, that's right. But it doesn't mean it is not dissociating :) Borek -- http://www.chembuddy.com http://www.ph-meter.info |
Oceans turning acidic
"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" u25927@uwe wrote in message news:690cec9d084bd@uwe... yes, they had to find some other "threat" I'm Curious. Who are "They" and what could "They" possibly have to gain from making this stuff up? Yes, lets list who they are and maybe we can find out why they are biased against developing nations. -- Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com |
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