On Oct 31, 2:32 pm, Brian Nystrom wrote:
Larry C wrote:

To respond to Brian. 1. I've had pretty good luck on the whitewater
side. Most of the instructors are very competent and pretty good
teachers. I'm only certified in SWR, and while I sometimes disagree
with subject matter and teach methods with some instructors, I have a
lot of respect for the ability of every ACA SWR instructor I've met.

I can't comment on the whitewater side of things, since I'm not into it,
but I would think that the nature of the activity dictates that to be an
instructor, one has to possess significant skills. I expected that on
the sea kayaking side, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
Apparently, one can be certified as an "open water" instructor without
actually paddling on anything other than flat water, unless that's
changed in the last three years. Apparently, there is no requirement to
demonstrate skills in actual, typical open-water conditions, which is an
utterly outrageous situation. In my mind, "open water" means one needs
to be able to deal with wind, waves, rocks, surf and other boat traffic.

Brian, it's clear that you're no fan of the ACA, and you're not alone,
but exactly where do you get the information to back up those
outrageous claims? You've met an incompetent instructor? One? Maybe
two? Big sample to generalize from.

I can tell you from first hand candidate and evaluator experience going
back several years that people can and do get denied Open Water and WW
certs if they can't perform, and that the standards do require actual
performance of the skills. My experience covers canoe, kayak, WW, and
Touring, and I've found the bar to be set pretty high. YMMV.

Steve

wrote:
On Oct 31, 2:32 pm, Brian Nystrom wrote:
Larry C wrote:

To respond to Brian. 1. I've had pretty good luck on the whitewater
side. Most of the instructors are very competent and pretty good
teachers. I'm only certified in SWR, and while I sometimes disagree
with subject matter and teach methods with some instructors, I have a
lot of respect for the ability of every ACA SWR instructor I've met.

I can't comment on the whitewater side of things, since I'm not into it,
but I would think that the nature of the activity dictates that to be an
instructor, one has to possess significant skills. I expected that on
the sea kayaking side, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
Apparently, one can be certified as an "open water" instructor without
actually paddling on anything other than flat water, unless that's
changed in the last three years. Apparently, there is no requirement to
demonstrate skills in actual, typical open-water conditions, which is an
utterly outrageous situation. In my mind, "open water" means one needs
to be able to deal with wind, waves, rocks, surf and other boat traffic.

Brian, it's clear that you're no fan of the ACA, and you're not alone,
but exactly where do you get the information to back up those
outrageous claims? You've met an incompetent instructor? One? Maybe
two? Big sample to generalize from.

I can tell you from first hand candidate and evaluator experience going
back several years that people can and do get denied Open Water and WW
certs if they can't perform, and that the standards do require actual
performance of the skills. My experience covers canoe, kayak, WW, and
Touring, and I've found the bar to be set pretty high. YMMV.

I don't doubt what you're saying, but what I've seen and heard points
out how inconsistently the programs are administered. Between that and
the constantly increasing cost of being affiliated with them, the ACA is
doing a great job of shooting itself in the foot. It would be great if
they could get their act together, but I'm not holding my breath.
Luckily for the ACA, they have a lot of skilled individuals that are
doing a great job and compensating somewhat for the lack of organization
at the top.