Well, you might try our clubs model. We decided to forego the PAC
membership since most of it wasn't very relavent and instead became an
Affiliate member. No real advantage but it still gets you access to the
insurance program. Instead of trying to get every member of the club to
join, we just charge the event membership to anyone that doesn't have
an ACA number.

The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their
insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't
available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor,
you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired.

We don't insure any club trips, although one club that I belong does
sometimes. As a SWR instructor, I follow liability issues fairly
closely. As far as I or my fellow instructors can find, there has never
been an incident that involved a club trip and an injury that resulted
in a lawsuit. IMO,
Liability in paddling clubs is an issue that tends to get blown way out
of porportion.

Larry

On Oct 28, 8:35*am, Brian Nystrom wrote:
Disclaimer: I'm a member of one of the largest PAC clubs in the US, but
the opinions expressed below are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of other club members or officers. That said...

wrote:
My local club seems utterly confused by ACA and their proposed rate
increases. Is this situation common to all paddling clubs?Yeah, pretty much. It seems to me that they must have hired a former IRS
employee as a consultant with the mandate to "make the fee structure as
confusing as humanly possible". Frankly, when I see something this
unnecessarily complex, it makes me suspicious that the real motive is to
try to conceal the true cost from the clubs until it's too late. It's
not as if the ACA has been above concealing things from their member
club in the past. Remember the insurance debacle a couple of years ago?

The ACA is one of the most unprofessional, inefficient, bush-league
organizations I've ever dealt with. It seems that every year they come
up with grandiose plans for club services that never come to fruition.
Heck, it's taken them YEARS to get to the point where they can get
membership cards out in a reasonably timely manner, yet now they think
they can manage all of our membership mailings and fee collection?
"Sure, sign me up and I'll take some of that swamp land you're selling
too! What's that, my check is in the mail? Okee doke!" Of course, they
have no trouble at all reaching deeper into our pockets every year,
pretty much without fail. However, there's a limit to how much the ACA
is going to be able to get out of the PAC "cash cow".

IMO, the only thing they provide to clubs that's of any real value is
liability insurance (unless you're into whitewater, Paddler magazine is
a waste of good trees) and I'm not sure that it's worth what it's
costing us now. We've been forced to increase our membership dues
substantially over the past few years, due entirely to increases in what
we have to pay the ACA. That has undoubtedly cost us members to other
local, non-ACA clubs and we're probably one fee increase away from
reaching the breaking point at which point we'll just drop our ACA
affiliation. If they ever make their new Trip Leader certification
mandatory, that will be the last straw for sure.

Most of the other clubs in our area have eschewed membership in the ACA
PAC program and just go it alone. They rely on the principles of the
"Common Adventure Model" for liability protection. To date AFAIK, none
of the clubs or their members have been sued for anything that has
happened at any of their club functions, trips, etc., primarily because
their safety record is exemplary, as is ours. With the cost of insurance
going through the roof, I suspect that CAM is the wave of the future.

Is anyone from the ACA listening out there???

Larry C wrote:
Well, you might try our clubs model. We decided to forego the PAC
membership since most of it wasn't very relavent and instead became an
Affiliate member. No real advantage but it still gets you access to the
insurance program. Instead of trying to get every member of the club to
join, we just charge the event membership to anyone that doesn't have
an ACA number.

The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their
insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't
available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor,
you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired.

I would differ with that last statement somewhat, as I've paddled with
an ACA "Open water" instructor who is uncomfortable in 2' seas, has no
endurance and won't paddle within 50 yards of a rock, except when
landing. How this person ever got their rating is beyond me, but I've
heard of several similar situations.

We don't insure any club trips, although one club that I belong does
sometimes. As a SWR instructor, I follow liability issues fairly
closely. As far as I or my fellow instructors can find, there has never
been an incident that involved a club trip and an injury that resulted
in a lawsuit. IMO,
Liability in paddling clubs is an issue that tends to get blown way out
of porportion.

I agree. Our club has gone through a long and painful process of dealing
with problems caused by a few "Chicken Little" types that scared us into
getting overly worked up over risk/liability, despite the fact that we
had never had a problem. While there have been some positive changes
made due to the analysis we performed, overall it's done a lot of damage
to the club. Ironically, the people that screamed the loudest about
risk/liability have all left the club, leaving others to clean up their
mess.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Larry C wrote:
The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their
insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't
available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor,
you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired.

I would differ with that last statement somewhat, as I've paddled with
an ACA "Open water" instructor who is uncomfortable in 2' seas, has no
endurance and won't paddle within 50 yards of a rock, except when
landing. How this person ever got their rating is beyond me, but I've
heard of several similar situations.

Brian, go to
http://www.acanet.org/instruction/kayak_instruction.lasso and read
the syllabi for the various ACA courses. There seem to be many stages
of classes, especially in ocean kayak (which is essentially unknown
territory for me, represented by all those articles in "Canoe & Kayak"
and "Paddler" which I irritably skip).

Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most
certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the
certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. Given
that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport,
as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the
specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the
course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those
skills.

Think of it as the "one-room schoolhouse" model, since, in the scope
and scale of society that's kinda what our clubs are. The
fourth-graders teach the first-graders to count. The sixth-graders
teach the second-graders addition and subtraction. The seventh graders
teach multiplication and division, the eighth-graders teach fractions.
the 11th-graders teach geometry, and the 12-graders teach algebra. So,
perhaps, in the progression of skills and classes set up by the ACA,
the specific instructors you have observed are actually acting within
the parameters of their certifications, even though they might be
highly uncomfortable if asked to exceed those parameters.

And always remember that, absent a few idiots who try to make a living
by turning a recreational activity into a job, ours is essentially a
VOLUNTEER activity and the standards are commensurately... uh,
"flexible"?


[1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an
additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue
certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly
good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every
paddler will learn? How twisted is that? ACA oughta be giving FREE
memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified
then give up the time to teach safety and rescue.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
.. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
.. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:
Larry C wrote:
The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their
insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't
available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor,
you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired.
I would differ with that last statement somewhat, as I've paddled with
an ACA "Open water" instructor who is uncomfortable in 2' seas, has no
endurance and won't paddle within 50 yards of a rock, except when
landing. How this person ever got their rating is beyond me, but I've
heard of several similar situations.

Brian, go to
http://www.acanet.org/instruction/kayak_instruction.lasso and read
the syllabi for the various ACA courses. There seem to be many stages
of classes, especially in ocean kayak (which is essentially unknown
territory for me, represented by all those articles in "Canoe & Kayak"
and "Paddler" which I irritably skip).

Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most
certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the
certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. Given
that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport,
as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the
specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the
course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those
skills.

Think of it as the "one-room schoolhouse" model, since, in the scope
and scale of society that's kinda what our clubs are. The
fourth-graders teach the first-graders to count. The sixth-graders
teach the second-graders addition and subtraction. The seventh graders
teach multiplication and division, the eighth-graders teach fractions.
the 11th-graders teach geometry, and the 12-graders teach algebra. So,
perhaps, in the progression of skills and classes set up by the ACA,
the specific instructors you have observed are actually acting within
the parameters of their certifications, even though they might be
highly uncomfortable if asked to exceed those parameters.

And always remember that, absent a few idiots who try to make a living
by turning a recreational activity into a job, ours is essentially a
VOLUNTEER activity and the standards are commensurately... uh,
"flexible"?


[1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an
additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue
certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly
good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every
paddler will learn? How twisted is that? ACA oughta be giving FREE
memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified
then give up the time to teach safety and rescue.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================


Brian Nystrom wrote:
Larry C wrote:
The only real strong point of the ACA is instruction and safety. Their
insurance program allows instructors protection that just isn't
available commercially. And if you do have an ACA certified instructor,
you have some clue to the level of competence that he has acquired.
I would differ with that last statement somewhat, as I've paddled with
an ACA "Open water" instructor who is uncomfortable in 2' seas, has no
endurance and won't paddle within 50 yards of a rock, except when
landing. How this person ever got their rating is beyond me, but I've
heard of several similar situations.

Brian, go to
http://www.acanet.org/instruction/kayak_instruction.lasso and read
the syllabi for the various ACA courses. There seem to be many stages
of classes, especially in ocean kayak (which is essentially unknown
territory for me, represented by all those articles in "Canoe & Kayak"
and "Paddler" which I irritably skip).

Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most
certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the
certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. Given
that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport,
as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the
specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the
course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those
skills.

Think of it as the "one-room schoolhouse" model, since, in the scope
and scale of society that's kinda what our clubs are. The
fourth-graders teach the first-graders to count. The sixth-graders
teach the second-graders addition and subtraction. The seventh graders
teach multiplication and division, the eighth-graders teach fractions.
the 11th-graders teach geometry, and the 12-graders teach algebra. So,
perhaps, in the progression of skills and classes set up by the ACA,
the specific instructors you have observed are actually acting within
the parameters of their certifications, even though they might be
highly uncomfortable if asked to exceed those parameters.

And always remember that, absent a few idiots who try to make a living
by turning a recreational activity into a job, ours is essentially a
VOLUNTEER activity and the standards are commensurately... uh,
"flexible"?

I agree with what you're saying with one exception; it seems to me that
it's folly to "certify" people with marginal skills, as they may take
that certification and try to use it to do things that they're not
really qualified for.

I absolutely agree that training is valuable and the more trained
paddlers there are on the water, the better it is for the entire
paddling community. That's one of the reasons that we don't require
people who take our trip leader training course to actually lead trips.
What we try to do is to teach people the necessary skills and lead them
to a realistic evaluation of their abilities and deficiencies. We
actively encourage people to go on to take other types of training. Our
basic philosophy is that trained trip participants are nearly as
important/beneficial as trained trip leaders.

[1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an
additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue
certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly
good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every
paddler will learn? How twisted is that? ACA oughta be giving FREE
memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified
then give up the time to teach safety and rescue.

I have some friends who are ACA coaches that share your annoyance.

I'll have to disagree with this statement. From my experience, the
great majority of ACA certified instructors are "outdoor
professionals", camp counselors, guides, heads of school outdoor
programs, etc. I know that CCC has a very strong volunteer ACA training
program, but outside of that I think you will find that most ACA
instuctors have monetary reasons to maintain the training and the
insurance.

It's surprising how many of the SWR instructor candidates take the
course and never teach.

Larry


Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most
certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the
certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. *Given
that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport,
as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the
specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the
course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those
skills.



[1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an
additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue
certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly
good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every
paddler will learn? *How twisted is that? *ACA oughta be giving FREE
memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified
then give up the time to teach safety and rescue.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. * * * * * * * * * *rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. * * Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. * * * * * * * * * * rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Could be. My view is fairly parochial, since I have had nothing to do
with any ACA instructors (or any kind of instruction since I took a
couple of NOC clinics in the early '90s) except for our little cadre of
volunteer SW S&R instructors in the DC area.

We were real lucky there. Jeff Davis, the Safety chairman for the
Canoe Cruisers' Ass'n, got himself certified by Charlie as an IT.
Jeff's policy as CCA Safety chair was to present threee two-day classes
each summer, open to CCA members only, and charge only a $15 equipment
fee. For that fee each student got a copy of Charlie Walbridge &
Wayne Sundmacher's book, a prusic loop that he made in class, and two
days of instruction. Further, any student was welcome to return for a
refresher class, absolutely free, if he would act as an assistant and
perform safety overwatch during the in-water units of instruction (this
meant Jeff always had upstream- and downstream-safety without sending
any of the students out of hearing distance).

Well, sometime in the mid-'90s my friend Bob Bonnet and I started to
make a habit of assisting Jeff at all three of his summer classes[1],
and once Jeff became certified as an IT he started using his safety
classes as Development and Certification workshops -- sorta OJT for us
candidate instructors.

After Jeff certified me and Bob as SW S&R Instructors I became safety
chair of the Monocacy Canoe Club, and I decided to leverage Jeff's
cartification: I got the MCC steering committee to agree to sponsor up
to four MCC members each year to the tune of a $25 membership in the
CCA and the $15 equipment fee -- $40 each -- to attend Jeff's classes
enough times to become certified instructors. I kept hinting to Jeff
that he should set up some kind of IT program within his club, the CCA,
but he never did. Nevertheless, as a result of this MCC program, by
2002 or so we had 20 or 25 certified SW S&R instructors in the
Baltimore-Washington area, and the three clubs (CCA, MCC, and Greater
Baltimore CC) were presenting, amongst them, six classes per summer,
each of which could have two or more certified instructors, and some of
which accepted as many as 20 students.

For the MCC safety classes, I arranged to have two instructors, four
assistants (who had been through the class) and up to 16 students.
This meant, for certain exercises where the students waited in line for
their turn to perform a particular evolution -- say, the strainer swim
and the zip-line crossing, we could split the class into two section,
each with an instructor and two safety-boaters, so the students
wouldn't have to wait so long in line. Essentially, we had an 8:1
student:instructor ratio (or better) and an 8:3 student:rescuer ratio
(or better).

[1] Bob and I spent so much time in Jeff's classes because we were just
pushing our way up to Class IV and (in Bob's case -- he was a kayaker)
Class V, without mentors, and driving all up and down the coast probing
for ourselves things like Section IV, the Watauga, and the Bottom
Moose. The thing abour S&R skills -- any skills, for that matter -- is
that if you don't practice, you forget, and by good fortune or good
judgement, we never got realtime practice from serious situations on
the river. So we kept going to Jeff's classes so that we would be
sharp if anything *did* occur.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
.. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
.. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Larry C wrote:
I'll have to disagree with this statement. From my experience, the
great majority of ACA certified instructors are "outdoor
professionals", camp counselors, guides, heads of school outdoor
programs, etc. I know that CCC has a very strong volunteer ACA training
program, but outside of that I think you will find that most ACA
instuctors have monetary reasons to maintain the training and the
insurance.

It's surprising how many of the SWR instructor candidates take the
course and never teach.

Larry


Recruiting volunteer instructors is always difficult, and most
certified instructors (at least in the whitewater world) take the
certification for volunteer activities, not to teach for pay[1]. ?Given
that, and given that more certified instructors is good for the sport,
as a whole, it makes sense to certify anyone who has mastered ***the
specific skills (and any prerequisite skills, of course) covered in the
course ***, and demonstrated the ability to actually teach those
skills.



[1] this is a separate beef of mine: that I have to pay ACA an
additional annual fee to retain my Swif****er Safety and Rescue
certification... PAY for the privilege of giving away several perfectly
good weekends to VOLUNTEER to teach something that we all hope every
paddler will learn? ?How twisted is that? ?ACA oughta be giving FREE
memberships to anyone who will take the trouble to become certified
then give up the time to teach safety and rescue.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. ? ? Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================