Hello,

Is the 470 a wise choice for my first double hand boat? I am
considering a purchase of an old one for under $2K, maybe under $1K.
Is this a bad idea for me?

My primary concerns about the 470 would to confirm:
-It lets me participate and learn, spend some fun time with my wife.
Will sail with my kids when
I've learned to handle the boat and they are old / strong enough

-It works, and will continue to do so safely even if hull goes
"soft". Won't buy the 470 if the class's construction/materials are
such that I cannot expect to keep even a soft boat for 5-10 years.
Willing to have affordable work done to get longevity out of the hull
even if it makes not-to-class SPEC)

-it's affordable. If the Hull is so flawed in it's reputedly light
build / design that I cannot safely sale it for years, then it's not
affordable.



My profile:

5'4" 150-160 lbs (Me)
5'6" 130 lbs (Wife)
I move from state to state a lot, so local 470 scene is not important
(un-controllable) to me.

New to sailing. Enough experience on a homemade, 14 ft, cat rig'd scow
to want to learn more. Also learned enough on that scow, and in
canoeing to respect moving water and keep my exposure in line with my
experience.

Thinking about buying an older boat to sail for fun and challenge, no
compettive racing. Might enter races, but will be happy at the back of
the pack. Expect to get wet and swim while we learn.

Don't know much, am going to read more, take lessons, and proceed
slowly, in fair weather baby steps. Realise that scaring my wife is
not a good idea.

Am thinking about buying a used 470 for less than $1000. Know 470 is a
lightly built, sometimes called a "throwaway" , per the classe's
constriction/materials SPECs. Know they get too soft to rig to full
tension and sail hard for more than a couple of seasons. Know my
affordable used boat will probably less than race ready in hull
stiffness. Know the 470 is no daysailer for kids and can get one in
trouble if not experienced.

I compare this desire to sail a challenging boat to my involvment in
cylcing: I have an old road racing bike that is too heavy to compete
on. It inexpensive. Don't care if breaks, cuz old parts are cheap.
Don't care if I can't hang with the young, fully dedicted race crowd
because I have other things to attend to (family, career, etc). Might
show up for the race, but am happy only to finish. Am not embarrased
to show up with old equipment and prefer it because it's cheaper to
maintain Am happy to work as vigorously the full on race crowd with the
less than race ready equipment I have. The primary concern about my
bike is it lets me participate, it works, and it's affordable.

Any advice appreciated.

If there is an obvious hull choice that makes more sense, I'm all ears.

Thanks,
Pat Smith

spincircles wrote:

Is the 470 a wise choice for my first double hand boat? I am
considering a purchase of an old one for under $2K, maybe under $1K.
Is this a bad idea for me?

My primary concerns about the 470 would to confirm:
-It lets me participate and learn, spend some fun time with my wife.
Will sail with my kids when
I've learned to handle the boat and they are old / strong enough

Unless your wife and kids have a high sense of advinture, it's probably
not the best choice. It's tippy, with crowded cockpit full of a
gazillion lines and a low boom. Not at all a comfortable cruising boat.
You'll get wet even if you do stay upright. The 470 is known as a boat
that wives hate.


-It works, and will continue to do so safely even if hull goes
"soft". Won't buy the 470 if the class's construction/materials are
such that I cannot expect to keep even a soft boat for 5-10 years.
Willing to have affordable work done to get longevity out of the hull
even if it makes not-to-class SPEC)

The hull will last more or less indefinitely as long as you keep it out
of the sun most of the time and don't let it fill with water. A 470
hull loses it's competetive performance relatively early in life, but it
will still work many years later. One caveat is that with a such a
light hull minor collissions (i.e. with the dock) can result in damage
that a stouter boat would shrug off.

-it's affordable. If the Hull is so flawed in it's reputedly light
build / design that I cannot safely sale it for years, then it's not
affordable.

With proper care, it should last many years without falling apart. But
there are better choices if your goal is a low maintenance boat. You
will learn to do glass work, which is not expensive, just time consuming.


My profile:

5'4" 150-160 lbs (Me)
5'6" 130 lbs (Wife)
I move from state to state a lot, so local 470 scene is not important
(un-controllable) to me.

Well, the 470 is basically a dead class in the US, so you can be fairly
sure you won't find much of a scene no matter where you go.


New to sailing. Enough experience on a homemade, 14 ft, cat rig'd scow
to want to learn more. Also learned enough on that scow, and in
canoeing to respect moving water and keep my exposure in line with my
experience.

Thinking about buying an older boat to sail for fun and challenge, no
compettive racing. Might enter races, but will be happy at the back of
the pack. Expect to get wet and swim while we learn.

Don't know much, am going to read more, take lessons, and proceed
slowly, in fair weather baby steps. Realise that scaring my wife is
not a good idea.

Am thinking about buying a used 470 for less than $1000. Know 470 is a
lightly built, sometimes called a "throwaway" , per the classe's
constriction/materials SPECs. Know they get too soft to rig to full
tension and sail hard for more than a couple of seasons. Know my
affordable used boat will probably less than race ready in hull
stiffness. Know the 470 is no daysailer for kids and can get one in
trouble if not experienced.

I compare this desire to sail a challenging boat to my involvment in
cylcing: I have an old road racing bike that is too heavy to compete
on. It inexpensive. Don't care if breaks, cuz old parts are cheap.
Don't care if I can't hang with the young, fully dedicted race crowd
because I have other things to attend to (family, career, etc). Might
show up for the race, but am happy only to finish. Am not embarrased
to show up with old equipment and prefer it because it's cheaper to
maintain Am happy to work as vigorously the full on race crowd with the
less than race ready equipment I have. The primary concern about my
bike is it lets me participate, it works, and it's affordable.

Any advice appreciated.


Well, from the above it sounds like you have your eyes open. What you
say is pretty spot on. Look hard at what you say above and using what
you know about yourself and your family see if it makes sense to go with
a 470. Normally, when somebody mentions family and 470 in the same
question, the answer is "no". In your case it's a "maybe", with me
erring on the "no" side of things.

The 470 is a great boat for the right sailor. Trapese, Spinaker, and
all the sail controls you would ever want led back into the cockpit via
complicated and ingeneous spaghetti-rigging. If that's your kind of
thing, go for it. If you're more of a cruiser / fun sailor, all that
extra gee gaw gets in the way.


If there is an obvious hull choice that makes more sense, I'm all ears.

If it wasn't for the wife and kids thing, I'd probably steer you in the
direction of the Laser - good physical workout, fun, active class just
about everywhere, easily obtainable used, etc. But since you are
looking at a two or more hander, it's probably out.

My advice would be to look at something that's big enough to take four
but can be sailed with one - that way you don't have to pick and choose
which family member comes along. Something along the lines of a CL-16,
Hunter 16, Wayfarer, Albacore, Lightning, Mutineer or Interlake. These
boats fall in different places along the sporty-stable continum; it's up
to you do decide where you want to be on that line. Here are two good
resources for getting the lay of the land:

http://www.ruach.net/Dinghy.html
http://www.sailboatsales.com/boats.htm

Good luck. Feel free to ask about other specific models.

//walt

Walt wrote:

spincircles wrote:

Is the 470 a wise choice for my first double hand boat? I am
considering a purchase of an old one for under $2K, maybe under $1K.
Is this a bad idea for me?

My primary concerns about the 470 would to confirm:
-It lets me participate and learn, spend some fun time with my wife.
Will sail with my kids when
I've learned to handle the boat and they are old / strong enough


Unless your wife and kids have a high sense of advinture, it's probably
not the best choice. It's tippy, with crowded cockpit full of a
gazillion lines and a low boom.

I'll second that. For you plus your wife I'd suggest looking for a
non-trapeze boat. Don't forget that in a single trapeze you want the
heavier weight out on the wire. That's you. Over here in the UK I'd
suggest an Enterprise, but I have no idea if they ever happened in the US.

Andy

On 11 Oct 2006 09:45:31 -0700, "spincircles"
wrote:

Hello,

Is the 470 a wise choice for my first double hand boat? I am
considering a purchase of an old one for under $2K, maybe under $1K.
Is this a bad idea for me?

My primary concerns about the 470 would to confirm:
-It lets me participate and learn, spend some fun time with my wife.
Will sail with my kids when
I've learned to handle the boat and they are old / strong enough



Any advice appreciated.

If there is an obvious hull choice that makes more sense, I'm all ears.

Thanks,
Pat Smith


You will be able to sail the 470 without trapeze / spinnaker
(initially) in light to moderate wind, so I would say its not a bad
choice.

Just make sure there's a hiking strap for the crew!

Malcolm Osborne
South Africa

Think Wayfarer. You can sail competitively if you want or just cruise.
It's a lot of sail. It's simple, it's classic.

The one watchpoint I would steer you towards (as with any boat), is be
sure your wife/partner is as keen as you because getting, say, a
Wayfarer up a ramp as a single adult on your own can be VERY hard work.

Best wishes
Stephen Page

best family day sailor is a Flying Scot, pretty fast, very roomy,
reasonable to buy, and quite stable. and you can trailer it with a
Toyota Corolla or similar. If you wish to race sometime, there are
fleets nationwide. Check it out on the net...

I owned a 470 for a while, fun boat, but not what you are looking for.
I sold mine for $950, and the hull was practically brand new, rarely
sailed and never raced.

buena suerte!

L