Wm Watt wrote:
Kathy D'Errico wrote:
I have a 16 foot hybrid canoe that I can use solo or tandem. It
really takes a lot of work paddling solo and I was wondering if
a kayak paddle would work better for me? or what would better than
the traditional lightweight paddle?

The canoe paddle serves as both paddle and rudder. Kayak paddles don't
do the rudder job well.

Why not? It seems to me that a kayak paddle should be easier to use as a
rudder since you can rudder on either side without having to shift the
paddle in your hands. Kayakers use various types of rudder strokes all
the time, though kayaks can also be directed using leans and sweeps
which are probably more difficult in a canoe.

A kayak paddle will allow you to extert more force at the cost of more
effort. It's the same canoe and nothing is free.

True, but a kayak paddle is more efficient, since there is less time for
the boat to decelerate between strokes, so you do gain a bit of speed at
no cost.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wm Watt wrote:

The canoe paddle serves as both paddle and rudder. Kayak paddles don't
do the rudder job well.

Why not? It seems to me that a kayak paddle should be easier to use as a
rudder since you can rudder on either side without having to shift the
paddle in your hands. Kayakers use various types of rudder strokes all
the time, though kayaks can also be directed using leans and sweeps
which are probably more difficult in a canoe.

A kayak paddle will allow you to extert more force at the cost of more
effort. It's the same canoe and nothing is free.

True, but a kayak paddle is more efficient, since there is less time for
the boat to decelerate between strokes, so you do gain a bit of speed at
no cost.

On my recent trip/experiment, I found that directional adjustment was
instinctive using either type blade. The only exception to this is
when you crossed modes. It felt awkward and ineffective when you tried
a blade specific stroke using the wrong type of blade. Canoe strokes
did not work well with a kayak paddle. I suspect this is more mental
than physical (a blade is a blade after all - though there are length
and grip differences). The instinctive part just disappeared. With
sufficient practice, perhaps this would resolve itself.

Blakely
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I really APPRECIATE IT! As I
canoe mainly on an open bay following the shoreline, I think I will try
the kayak paddle approach. I stopped down to a local kayak store
yesterday and tried out a kayak paddle with a canoe. It seemed to work
fine for me except that the 245cm paddle was a little short. I think a
slightly longer one would do the trick. Blakely-what size kayak paddle
is your Carlisle? As you are sitting in the stern which is narrower,
you are probably able to use a standard size kayak paddle? My problem
is that I am sitting in the midsection going solo, so that the paddle
was slightly short for the mid. Also, do you sit or kneel when using
your kayak paddle? Thank your for your "experiment".

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wm Watt wrote:

The canoe paddle serves as both paddle and rudder. Kayak paddles don't
do the rudder job well.

Why not? It seems to me that a kayak paddle should be easier to use as a
rudder since you can rudder on either side without having to shift the
paddle in your hands. Kayakers use various types of rudder strokes all
the time, though kayaks can also be directed using leans and sweeps
which are probably more difficult in a canoe.


Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?
You only need or want to paddle on both sides in white water or some
other extreme conditions where efficiency is questionable, and when
poling is sometimes better.


A kayak paddle will allow you to extert more force at the cost of more
effort. It's the same canoe and nothing is free.

True, but a kayak paddle is more efficient, since there is less time for
the boat to decelerate between strokes, so you do gain a bit of speed at
no cost.

That's only a problem in a short boat. Once a canoe exceeds about 12 ft
in length a moderate paddle stroke will maintain a steady rate of
speed.

- a paddle blade is better formed to act as a rudder

- the handle of a paddle has a grip at the top to facilitate twisting
the blade. Twisting the blade in the water is part of a normal canoe
stroke.

- in a canoe the solo paddler sits amidships like a kayak paddler but
because a canoe is wider the paddler sits to one side where the paddle
can be dipped vertically into the water. For a solo canoe paddler, a
kayak paddle is not as efficient. The canoe is too wide amidships. A
kayak paddle with a sufficiently large blade may be more powerful, but
not more efficient.

For someone who mostly uses a kayak paddle it may feel more efficient
than a canoe paddle but that's because the person is conditioned to a
kayak paddle. I've used both kinds in the small boats I built. The
shortest boat needs a kayak paddle because it does't track well. It's
like one of those short white water kayaks.

I was interested in the account of using a kayak paddle when paddling
double in a canoe. Sitting in the end of the canoe would be narrow
enough to make a kayak paddle practical. I've never tried it but think
it would be interesting. There would still be the problem of the kayak
paddle not acting well as a rudder, but on a straight course it would
be interesting to try. People use bent blade paddles on straight
courses so there is a precedent.

Wm Watt wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wm Watt wrote:

The canoe paddle serves as both paddle and rudder. Kayak paddles don't
do the rudder job well.
Why not? It seems to me that a kayak paddle should be easier to use as a
rudder since you can rudder on either side without having to shift the
paddle in your hands. Kayakers use various types of rudder strokes all
the time, though kayaks can also be directed using leans and sweeps
which are probably more difficult in a canoe.


Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?

Why not? You use a rudder stroke on whatever side it most convenient at
the time. That's SOP in kayaks.

You only need or want to paddle on both sides in white water or some
other extreme conditions where efficiency is questionable, and when
poling is sometimes better.

Why? What's the downside of doing it all the time? I realize that it's
not traditional to do so in a canoes, but other than that, why would you
not want to?

A kayak paddle will allow you to extert more force at the cost of more
effort. It's the same canoe and nothing is free.
True, but a kayak paddle is more efficient, since there is less time for
the boat to decelerate between strokes, so you do gain a bit of speed at
no cost.

That's only a problem in a short boat. Once a canoe exceeds about 12 ft
in length a moderate paddle stroke will maintain a steady rate of
speed.

I beg to differ. Every stroke accelerates the boat and every pause
allows it to decelerate. If the boat is heavily laden, the changes may
be quite small, but particularly when paddling a light boat unladen, it
makes a difference over several hours of paddling.

- a paddle blade is better formed to act as a rudder

We're talking about paddles, aren't we? If you mean a canoe paddle is a
better shape than a kayak paddle, that would depend on the type of
paddles you're comparing. For example, I would think that a bent-shaft
canoe paddle would make a less than ideal rudder and would be less
effective than a kayak paddle.

- the handle of a paddle has a grip at the top to facilitate twisting
the blade. Twisting the blade in the water is part of a normal canoe
stroke.

It works fine with a kayak paddle, too. It doesn't take much twist to
rudder a boat, nor does the twisting action require much effort.

- in a canoe the solo paddler sits amidships like a kayak paddler but
because a canoe is wider the paddler sits to one side where the paddle
can be dipped vertically into the water. For a solo canoe paddler, a
kayak paddle is not as efficient. The canoe is too wide amidships. A
kayak paddle with a sufficiently large blade may be more powerful, but
not more efficient.

I can see where the width of the boat could be problematic, but that can
be overcome to some degree by using a long enough paddle to easily reach
the water on both sides.

For someone who mostly uses a kayak paddle it may feel more efficient
than a canoe paddle but that's because the person is conditioned to a
kayak paddle. I've used both kinds in the small boats I built. The
shortest boat needs a kayak paddle because it does't track well. It's
like one of those short white water kayaks.

There's a difference between the inherent efficiency of the paddle
itself and the efficiency of the boat/paddle combination. The
alternating stroke of a kayak paddle reduces "dead spots" in the stroke
as well as the need for a "J" stroke or other technique for compensating
for paddling on only one side. Any time you add a ruddering component to
a stroke, it reduces the efficiency of the stroke.

I was interested in the account of using a kayak paddle when paddling
double in a canoe. Sitting in the end of the canoe would be narrow
enough to make a kayak paddle practical. I've never tried it but think
it would be interesting. There would still be the problem of the kayak
paddle not acting well as a rudder, but on a straight course it would
be interesting to try. People use bent blade paddles on straight
courses so there is a precedent.

Trust me Bill, a kayak paddle works just fine as a rudder; there are
thousands of years of precedent for that. The extra length of a kayak
paddle also allows for extended sweep strokes, which are a more
efficient means of correcting a boat's course than ruddering, as the
stroke propels the boat forward as it turns it, rather than just
creating drag as ruddering does.

Brian Nystrom wrote:

Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?

Why not? You use a rudder stroke on whatever side it most convenient at
the time. That's SOP in kayaks.

Then it's no advantage as previously claimed?


You only need or want to paddle on both sides in white water or some
other extreme conditions where efficiency is questionable, and when
poling is sometimes better.

Why? What's the downside of doing it all the time? I realize that it's
not traditional to do so in a canoes, but other than that, why would you
not want to?

We were trying to establish an advantage of one over the other?
You claimed an advantage for being ablt to "ruudder on both sides".
Now the advantage you claimed for steeing on both sides seems to have
disappeared.



That's only a problem in a short boat. Once a canoe exceeds about 12 ft
in length a moderate paddle stroke will maintain a steady rate of
speed.

I beg to differ. Every stroke accelerates the boat and every pause
allows it to decelerate. If the boat is heavily laden, the changes may
be quite small, but particularly when paddling a light boat unladen, it
makes a difference over several hours of paddling.

I have to disagree. A canoe has more momentum.
You have a point though when thewind blows.

Gettin timed out .....


- a paddle blade is better formed to act as a rudder

We're talking about paddles, aren't we? If you mean a canoe paddle is a
better shape than a kayak paddle, that would depend on the type of
paddles you're comparing. For example, I would think that a bent-shaft
canoe paddle would make a less than ideal rudder and would be less
effective than a kayak paddle.

- the handle of a paddle has a grip at the top to facilitate twisting
the blade. Twisting the blade in the water is part of a normal canoe
stroke.

It works fine with a kayak paddle, too. It doesn't take much twist to
rudder a boat, nor does the twisting action require much effort.

- in a canoe the solo paddler sits amidships like a kayak paddler but
because a canoe is wider the paddler sits to one side where the paddle
can be dipped vertically into the water. For a solo canoe paddler, a
kayak paddle is not as efficient. The canoe is too wide amidships. A
kayak paddle with a sufficiently large blade may be more powerful, but
not more efficient.

I can see where the width of the boat could be problematic, but that can
be overcome to some degree by using a long enough paddle to easily reach
the water on both sides.

For someone who mostly uses a kayak paddle it may feel more efficient
than a canoe paddle but that's because the person is conditioned to a
kayak paddle. I've used both kinds in the small boats I built. The
shortest boat needs a kayak paddle because it does't track well. It's
like one of those short white water kayaks.

There's a difference between the inherent efficiency of the paddle
itself and the efficiency of the boat/paddle combination. The
alternating stroke of a kayak paddle reduces "dead spots" in the stroke
as well as the need for a "J" stroke or other technique for compensating
for paddling on only one side. Any time you add a ruddering component to
a stroke, it reduces the efficiency of the stroke.

I was interested in the account of using a kayak paddle when paddling
double in a canoe. Sitting in the end of the canoe would be narrow
enough to make a kayak paddle practical. I've never tried it but think
it would be interesting. There would still be the problem of the kayak
paddle not acting well as a rudder, but on a straight course it would
be interesting to try. People use bent blade paddles on straight
courses so there is a precedent.

Trust me Bill, a kayak paddle works just fine as a rudder; there are
thousands of years of precedent for that. The extra length of a kayak
paddle also allows for extended sweep strokes, which are a more
efficient means of correcting a boat's course than ruddering, as the
stroke propels the boat forward as it turns it, rather than just
creating drag as ruddering does.

Wm Watt wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?
Why not? You use a rudder stroke on whatever side it most convenient at
the time. That's SOP in kayaks.

Then it's no advantage as previously claimed?

What are you talking about? Of course it's beneficial to be able to
rudder on on whatever side is most convenient.

You only need or want to paddle on both sides in white water or some
other extreme conditions where efficiency is questionable, and when
poling is sometimes better.

Why? What's the downside of doing it all the time? I realize that it's
not traditional to do so in a canoes, but other than that, why would you
not want to?

We were trying to establish an advantage of one over the other?
You claimed an advantage for being ablt to "ruudder on both sides".
Now the advantage you claimed for steeing on both sides seems to have
disappeared.

Where in the world did you come up with that? How about answering the
question posed, instead of diverting the discussion?

That's only a problem in a short boat. Once a canoe exceeds about 12 ft
in length a moderate paddle stroke will maintain a steady rate of
speed.

I beg to differ. Every stroke accelerates the boat and every pause
allows it to decelerate. If the boat is heavily laden, the changes may
be quite small, but particularly when paddling a light boat unladen, it
makes a difference over several hours of paddling.

I have to disagree. A canoe has more momentum.
You have a point though when thewind blows.

A typical canoe also has more drag to decelerate it between strokes. I
don't buy the momentum argument.

Gettin timed out .....

Whatever.

Brian Nystrom wrote in
news:t9QRg.3882$SD5.3043@trndny01:

Wm Watt wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?
Why not? You use a rudder stroke on whatever side it most convenient
at the time. That's SOP in kayaks.

Then it's no advantage as previously claimed?

What are you talking about? Of course it's beneficial to be able to
rudder on on whatever side is most convenient.

One can even start with a bow rudder to move the bow, then slide it back to
a hanging draw, then back to a stern rudder (draw) to effectively draw the
kayak sideways.

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in
news:t9QRg.3882$SD5.3043@trndny01:

Wm Watt wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?
Why not? You use a rudder stroke on whatever side it most convenient
at the time. That's SOP in kayaks.
Then it's no advantage as previously claimed?
What are you talking about? Of course it's beneficial to be able to
rudder on on whatever side is most convenient.

One can even start with a bow rudder to move the bow, then slide it back to
a hanging draw, then back to a stern rudder (draw) to effectively draw the
kayak sideways.

Or you can go from a bow rudder to a stern draw to create an "S" and
steer around obstacles - technique that Nigel Foster teaches.