Jeremy wrote:
For the sake of offering an opposing view...

Wilko wrote:
-Decide on how much you want to spend on a helmet. (If you have a 20
dollar head, get a 20 dollar helmet. :-) )

This one is very popular to state, but I'm not convinced it has any value.
For many whitewater helmets, the high price goes to support nice paint and
hand-made, small production runs. That doesn't translate to added safety.

That's not what I meant... For example, you can get an ACE "helmet" that
is supposedly designed for whitewater but that offers hardly any better
protection than a baseball cap for maybe 15 or 20 US$. You can also
invest a bit more (let's say 60 US$) and get a helmet that offers a lot
more protection than the ACE. I see no need to pay hundreds of dollars
for the most expensive models and brands, but there is definitely merit
in spending more than what gets you the cheapest helmets if you want
decent protection! (I think I paid 60 US$ for the Shred Ready helmet.)

Motorcyclist Magazine had an interesting article on the subject recently.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ge...helmet_review/
While the helmets they examined are not suitable for whitewater, some
of the same observations probably apply.

The big problem with motorcycle helmets is that they are designed for
dealing with one massive blow after which they need to be replaced. One
flip in whitewater can easily give you a number of heavy blows,
preferably without the helmet failing after the first hit. I'm convinced
that requires a different design approach. Add the kind of contact for
which the helmet is designed (transferring energy when hitting a flat
surface like the asphalt at high speed, or hitting something sharp like
a rock with a lot less speed) and I think that we're talking about
apples and oranges here...

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Wilko wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
For the sake of offering an opposing view...

Wilko wrote:
-Decide on how much you want to spend on a helmet. (If you have a 20
dollar head, get a 20 dollar helmet. :-) )

This one is very popular to state, but I'm not convinced it has any value.
For many whitewater helmets, the high price goes to support nice paint and
hand-made, small production runs. That doesn't translate to added safety.

That's not what I meant... For example, you can get an ACE "helmet" that
is supposedly designed for whitewater but that offers hardly any better
protection than a baseball cap for maybe 15 or 20 US$. You can also
invest a bit more (let's say 60 US$) and get a helmet that offers a lot
more protection than the ACE. I see no need to pay hundreds of dollars
for the most expensive models and brands, but there is definitely merit
in spending more than what gets you the cheapest helmets if you want
decent protection! (I think I paid 60 US$ for the Shred Ready helmet.)

That may not be what you meant, but it is the sentiment offered. NRS prices
the Ace at $39.95. Is it a better helmet than the $34.95 Ace Junior model?
Not as good as the $64.95 Wake? How does a $50 Cascade full coverage (not
sold by NRS) fit in? Does this heuristic get thrown off by clearance
sales?

And I do think that comparing an Ace to a baseball hat is a gross reduction.

Motorcyclist Magazine had an interesting article on the subject recently.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ge...helmet_review/
While the helmets they examined are not suitable for whitewater, some
of the same observations probably apply.

The big problem with motorcycle helmets is that they are designed for
dealing with one massive blow after which they need to be replaced. One
flip in whitewater can easily give you a number of heavy blows,
preferably without the helmet failing after the first hit. I'm convinced
that requires a different design approach. Add the kind of contact for
which the helmet is designed (transferring energy when hitting a flat
surface like the asphalt at high speed, or hitting something sharp like
a rock with a lot less speed) and I think that we're talking about
apples and oranges here...

Again, SOME of the observations apply. I think that dismissing over fifty
years of development into a similar application is folly.

Jeremy wrote:

That may not be what you meant, but it is the sentiment offered. NRS prices
the Ace at $39.95. Is it a better helmet than the $34.95 Ace Junior model?
Not as good as the $64.95 Wake? How does a $50 Cascade full coverage (not
sold by NRS) fit in? Does this heuristic get thrown off by clearance
sales?

There is a difference in quality of helmets, and the better ones tend to
be more expensive. Where are the 20 US$, 100US$ or 200 US$ whitewater
helmets in your example? Yeah, there are oranges and apples that are
both green...So does that prove that they're all the same or did you
just point to exceptions?

And I do think that comparing an Ace to a baseball hat is a gross reduction.

I'm talking about the old ACE brand, not the Pro-tec brand, which is
what you're referring to.

This ACE helmet (which used to be pretty common among boaters for a long
time, nowadays I mostly see them among Slalom racers and rental
companies), does not offer much more protection than a baseball cap:

http://kayaker.nl/niels-10.jpg

I saw a new one on Australian Ebay for about 15 US$ recently. I'm
surprised that they are even allowed to be sold any more.

Motorcyclist Magazine had an interesting article on the subject recently.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ge...helmet_review/
While the helmets they examined are not suitable for whitewater, some
of the same observations probably apply.

The big problem with motorcycle helmets is that they are designed for
dealing with one massive blow after which they need to be replaced. One
flip in whitewater can easily give you a number of heavy blows,
preferably without the helmet failing after the first hit. I'm convinced
that requires a different design approach. Add the kind of contact for
which the helmet is designed (transferring energy when hitting a flat
surface like the asphalt at high speed, or hitting something sharp like
a rock with a lot less speed) and I think that we're talking about
apples and oranges here...

Again, SOME of the observations apply. I think that dismissing over fifty
years of development into a similar application is folly.

Yeah, some of them apply... Apples and oranges are also having some
similarities. Care to be more specific about which ones do and which
ones don't in your opinion?

I'm not dismissing everything in your mentioned article, just pointing
out where the differences lie in my view. All I've read in your text is
that there "must be" similarities. So what are those and how relevant
are they when deciding upon buying a good whitewater helmet?

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Wilko wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
[...]
This ACE helmet (which used to be pretty common among boaters for a long
time, nowadays I mostly see them among Slalom racers and rental
companies), does not offer much more protection than a baseball cap:

http://kayaker.nl/niels-10.jpg

I saw a new one on Australian Ebay for about 15 US$ recently. I'm
surprised that they are even allowed to be sold any more.
[...]

My cheap Walmart helmet is better than that thing.