Jeremy wrote:

That may not be what you meant, but it is the sentiment offered. NRS prices
the Ace at $39.95. Is it a better helmet than the $34.95 Ace Junior model?
Not as good as the $64.95 Wake? How does a $50 Cascade full coverage (not
sold by NRS) fit in? Does this heuristic get thrown off by clearance
sales?

There is a difference in quality of helmets, and the better ones tend to
be more expensive. Where are the 20 US$, 100US$ or 200 US$ whitewater
helmets in your example? Yeah, there are oranges and apples that are
both green...So does that prove that they're all the same or did you
just point to exceptions?

And I do think that comparing an Ace to a baseball hat is a gross reduction.

I'm talking about the old ACE brand, not the Pro-tec brand, which is
what you're referring to.

This ACE helmet (which used to be pretty common among boaters for a long
time, nowadays I mostly see them among Slalom racers and rental
companies), does not offer much more protection than a baseball cap:

http://kayaker.nl/niels-10.jpg

I saw a new one on Australian Ebay for about 15 US$ recently. I'm
surprised that they are even allowed to be sold any more.

Motorcyclist Magazine had an interesting article on the subject recently.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ge...helmet_review/
While the helmets they examined are not suitable for whitewater, some
of the same observations probably apply.

The big problem with motorcycle helmets is that they are designed for
dealing with one massive blow after which they need to be replaced. One
flip in whitewater can easily give you a number of heavy blows,
preferably without the helmet failing after the first hit. I'm convinced
that requires a different design approach. Add the kind of contact for
which the helmet is designed (transferring energy when hitting a flat
surface like the asphalt at high speed, or hitting something sharp like
a rock with a lot less speed) and I think that we're talking about
apples and oranges here...

Again, SOME of the observations apply. I think that dismissing over fifty
years of development into a similar application is folly.

Yeah, some of them apply... Apples and oranges are also having some
similarities. Care to be more specific about which ones do and which
ones don't in your opinion?

I'm not dismissing everything in your mentioned article, just pointing
out where the differences lie in my view. All I've read in your text is
that there "must be" similarities. So what are those and how relevant
are they when deciding upon buying a good whitewater helmet?

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Well, this thread got a lot of good activity! I finally went to our local
paddle shop today, and asked them. The overwhelming helmet type carried by
them is made by Shredder. Any comments on them?

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

I find the Grateful Heads composite helmets quite satisfactory. I had
one of their early designs, and it protected me from some hard hits on
Class III to V rapids. When Grateful Heads came out with the Darth
Vader-looking designs I got one of those, because the projection at the
back will protect my upper spine from many (though certainly not all)
possible hits, whereas the typical helmet protects only the cranium.

Please don't let anyone tell you that "helmet X is good enough for
Class II," or something like that. Rocks on a Class II river are just
as hard as rocks on a Class V river. You need a helmet, and you need
the best helmet you can find.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================


W. Watson wrote:

I'm basically a flat water paddler but am extending my horizons to class II.
Maybe III some distant day in the future. III will be my limit. Any
suggestions on a suitable helmet for II?



Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
--

"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail,
not to scorn human actions, but to understand them."
-—Baruch Spinoza

Web Page: home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews

Wilko wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
[...]
This ACE helmet (which used to be pretty common among boaters for a long
time, nowadays I mostly see them among Slalom racers and rental
companies), does not offer much more protection than a baseball cap:

http://kayaker.nl/niels-10.jpg

I saw a new one on Australian Ebay for about 15 US$ recently. I'm
surprised that they are even allowed to be sold any more.
[...]

My cheap Walmart helmet is better than that thing.

Wilko wrote:

A helmet that is made of kevlar or some other composite material will
generally be stiffer, thereby spreading the force of the blow to your
head over a bigger area, and it will usually need (a lot) more force
before deforming. A plastic helmet is more likely to deform locally and
in that case it will pass the energy on the point of impact almost
directly to the skull below it.

This is a mistake most non engineers make. Composites absorb energy by
having the fibers break. If the impact isn't strong enough to break the
fibers, the impact in tranmitted into the lining. Plastic, whether ABS,
Poly or one of the newer polycarbonates, absorb energy by flexing,
which in reality spreads the force of the impact over a greater area
and seems to allow better absorbtion of the energy by the liner. While
there is nothing inherently wrong with using a composite as long as the
liner and fit are sufficient, plastic helmets actually start with an
advantage in absorbing impact. The real purpose of the shell is to
prevent physical trauma to the head, having a rock poke a big dent in
the skull, and even a Protec will do that much.

BTW, I took an old Protec Full Coverage that was old enough that I was
reluctant to trust it anymore and beat it with a large crowbar to see
if I could get it to break or even seriously deform. As you know, I'm a
rather large and stout guy, but I couldn't break it nor did I see if
ever deform enough to the point I thought it would contribute to an
injury.


A helmet that has a decent layer of foam inside will have more distance
between your skull and the rock and it might absorb more of the energy
of the impact (depending upon the kind of foam used).

This is what really seperates a good helmet from a poor one. The amount
and type of foam and how well that helmet fits your head is much more
important than the shell material. Sweets has one of the best foam
lining systems that I've seen, and the new WRSI helmet has the right
idea, although I think that is has several basic design flaws,
the biggest that it isn't full coverage.


A helmet shaped like a baseball cap might look very fashionable, but it
usually lacks adequate protection on the sides and back, as well as
adding a visor that will yank your head back if it hits on something.
For very little money you can add a flexible (velcro'd on) visor to
almost any helmet.


I'm a believer in full coverage helmets too. I might add that I've have
never heard of an injury that was the result of the bill on a helmet,
but a lot of this style helmet has so little side coverage that it may
be hard to tell if it was a factor. I've heard the same arguement about
a facemask, which both you and I wear, but I've never heard of an
incident with them either.

I've had five different helmets over the years, two Roemer, one Prijon
Corsica, a Shred Ready Full Mental Jacket and for the last five years or
so, I've used a Grateful Heads Dropzone helmet to which I added the
visor and a face guard.

My present helmet is a Predator Full Cut with a Hardnose, which I like
very well. I haven't got pounded into the river bottom with this one
yet, but it looks like it will handle the job fine. I still wear a
Wildwater Competition when I'm in the Culebra or a Raft.


Some pictures he http://kayaker.nl/tips.html#Helmets

HTH

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---


Larry
http://kayaker.nl/

Overwhelming in what respect? Do you mean "overwhelmingly best
selling?"

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
.. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
.. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================


W. Watson wrote:
Well, this thread got a lot of good activity! I finally went to our local
paddle shop today, and asked them. The overwhelming helmet type carried by
them is made by Shredder. Any comments on them?

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

I find the Grateful Heads composite helmets quite satisfactory. I had
one of their early designs, and it protected me from some hard hits on
Class III to V rapids. When Grateful Heads came out with the Darth
Vader-looking designs I got one of those, because the projection at the
back will protect my upper spine from many (though certainly not all)
possible hits, whereas the typical helmet protects only the cranium.

Please don't let anyone tell you that "helmet X is good enough for
Class II," or something like that. Rocks on a Class II river are just
as hard as rocks on a Class V river. You need a helmet, and you need
the best helmet you can find.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================


W. Watson wrote:

I'm basically a flat water paddler but am extending my horizons to class II.
Maybe III some distant day in the future. III will be my limit. Any
suggestions on a suitable helmet for II?



Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
--

"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail,
not to scorn human actions, but to understand them."
--Baruch Spinoza

Web Page: home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews

Yes, that does require some clarification. It's certainly a bit of
hyperbole. They carry three lines, but 60% of the helmets on display are
shredder. However, according to the sales guy, it's the helment of choice
for him and the many people he kayaks with in the Sierra along Hwy 49 and
higher into the mountains. Anyway, what does the rest of the world think
about them? The name might be Shredder Ready.

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

Overwhelming in what respect? Do you mean "overwhelmingly best
selling?"

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================


W. Watson wrote:

Well, this thread got a lot of good activity! I finally went to our local
paddle shop today, and asked them. The overwhelming helmet type carried by
them is made by Shredder. Any comments on them?

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:


I find the Grateful Heads composite helmets quite satisfactory. I had
one of their early designs, and it protected me from some hard hits on
Class III to V rapids. When Grateful Heads came out with the Darth
Vader-looking designs I got one of those, because the projection at the
back will protect my upper spine from many (though certainly not all)
possible hits, whereas the typical helmet protects only the cranium.

Please don't let anyone tell you that "helmet X is good enough for
Class II," or something like that. Rocks on a Class II river are just
as hard as rocks on a Class V river. You need a helmet, and you need
the best helmet you can find.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
=============================================== =======================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
=============================================== =======================


W. Watson wrote:


I'm basically a flat water paddler but am extending my horizons to class II.
Maybe III some distant day in the future. III will be my limit. Any
suggestions on a suitable helmet for II?




Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
--

"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail,
not to scorn human actions, but to understand them."
-—Baruch Spinoza

Web Page: home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews

"Larry C" wrote:

BTW, I took an old Protec Full Coverage that was old enough that I was
reluctant to trust it anymore and beat it with a large crowbar to see
if I could get it to break or even seriously deform. As you know, I'm a
rather large and stout guy, but I couldn't break it nor did I see if
ever deform enough to the point I thought it would contribute to an
injury.

Many years ago I paddled with a guy who had a Protec helmet which had been
run over by a truck. It was still serviceable.

And on a separate note, I was on a fairly easy whitewater section on
Saturday, and a member of our group got a concussion when he flipped over
onto a rock. I don't care what material a helmet is made of if it doesn't
properly cover your forehead!

-Paul

W. Watson wrote:

Well, this thread got a lot of good activity! I finally went to our local
paddle shop today, and asked them. The overwhelming helmet type carried by
them is made by Shredder. Any comments on them?

I don't have a horse in this race of plastic versus composite shell,
but rocks have hit my head hit many times, twice on the sides, so
I strongly recommend against any helmet without ear protection.
(Pictures of the Shred-Ready Shredder show top protection only.)

Shred Ready is a brand name.


"W. Watson" wrote in message
nk.net...
Yes, that does require some clarification. It's certainly a bit of
hyperbole. They carry three lines, but 60% of the helmets on display are
shredder. However, according to the sales guy, it's the helment of choice
for him and the many people he kayaks with in the Sierra along Hwy 49 and
higher into the mountains. Anyway, what does the rest of the world think
about them? The name might be Shredder Ready.

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

Overwhelming in what respect? Do you mean "overwhelmingly best
selling?"

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================


W. Watson wrote:

Well, this thread got a lot of good activity! I finally went to our
local
paddle shop today, and asked them. The overwhelming helmet type carried
by
them is made by Shredder. Any comments on them?

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:


I find the Grateful Heads composite helmets quite satisfactory. I had
one of their early designs, and it protected me from some hard hits on
Class III to V rapids. When Grateful Heads came out with the Darth
Vader-looking designs I got one of those, because the projection at the
back will protect my upper spine from many (though certainly not all)
possible hits, whereas the typical helmet protects only the cranium.

Please don't let anyone tell you that "helmet X is good enough for
Class II," or something like that. Rocks on a Class II river are just
as hard as rocks on a Class V river. You need a helmet, and you need
the best helmet you can find.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
=============================================== =======================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
=============================================== =======================


W. Watson wrote:


I'm basically a flat water paddler but am extending my horizons to
class II.
Maybe III some distant day in the future. III will be my limit. Any
suggestions on a suitable helmet for II?




Wayne T. Watson (Watson Adventures, Prop., Nevada City, CA)
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7" N, 121° 2' 32" W, 2700 feet
--

"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail,
not to scorn human actions, but to understand them."
-—Baruch Spinoza

Web Page: home.earthlink.net/~mtnviews

A friend of mine flipped in High Falls on the cheat, smacked his protec, and
it split right down the middle, destroyed. It was an older model, they DO
look better made now a days.


"Paul Skoczylas" wrote in message
news:7fmLg.5839$0k7.3993@clgrps13...
"Larry C" wrote:

BTW, I took an old Protec Full Coverage that was old enough that I was
reluctant to trust it anymore and beat it with a large crowbar to see
if I could get it to break or even seriously deform. As you know, I'm a
rather large and stout guy, but I couldn't break it nor did I see if
ever deform enough to the point I thought it would contribute to an
injury.

Many years ago I paddled with a guy who had a Protec helmet which had been
run over by a truck. It was still serviceable.

And on a separate note, I was on a fairly easy whitewater section on
Saturday, and a member of our group got a concussion when he flipped over
onto a rock. I don't care what material a helmet is made of if it doesn't
properly cover your forehead!

-Paul