never discussed before
 

Railtramp wrote:
Bill Tuthill wrote:
Wilko wrote:
Sjeez Bill, you actually enjoy running fla****er in your ducky?
Compared to rowing a raft into a headwind, it's easy!
I can't keep up with tandem canoes, however.

Rowing into a headwind is a killer. I once ran the St Louis river at
30,000 cfs in the hope of a quick ride. Everything was great until the
river took a 90 degree turn and went straight east for 10 miles - right
into a 30+ mph headwind running up the valley. If I stopped rowing, I
just surfed in place. The current taking me downstream and the head
wind pushing me back up. Only when I had my passenger hunker down on
the floor and then power rowed with my back downstream and into the
wind did I make any progress at all. It took hours to make the first
possible place to take out. Never worked so hard before or since,
though I have come close a few times. But nothing for the lenght of
time that trip took.

You rafters, you're both just masochists! ;-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

never discussed before
 

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
Railtramp wrote:
Bill Tuthill wrote:
Wilko wrote:
Sjeez Bill, you actually enjoy running fla****er in your ducky?
Compared to rowing a raft into a headwind, it's easy!
I can't keep up with tandem canoes, however.

Rowing into a headwind is a killer. I once ran the St Louis river at
30,000 cfs in the hope of a quick ride. Everything was great until the
river took a 90 degree turn and went straight east for 10 miles - right
into a 30+ mph headwind running up the valley. If I stopped rowing, I
just surfed in place. The current taking me downstream and the head
wind pushing me back up. Only when I had my passenger hunker down on
the floor and then power rowed with my back downstream and into the
wind did I make any progress at all. It took hours to make the first
possible place to take out. Never worked so hard before or since,
though I have come close a few times. But nothing for the lenght of
time that trip took.

You rafters, you're both just masochists! ;-)

On a Grand Canyon trip many years ago (wow, like almost 20!!!) there was
such a headwind one day in Marble Canyon that I rowed with all my strength
for several hours and only gained about 200 yards of river. A big part of
the problem was that the wind kept blowing me into the shoreline eddys and I
would get washed back to the top of the stretch I had just rowed. After
about an hour, I was so exhausted that I let one of the clients try to row.
He got us blown back UPSTREAM from where we had started, and I had to regain
his ground as well as my own. We stopped and made lunch less than 2 miles
from where we spent the night before. It was the second hardest day ever on
a river....

--riverman

never discussed before
 

On a Grand Canyon trip many years ago (wow, like almost 20!!!) there was
such a headwind one day in Marble Canyon that I rowed with all my strength
for several hours and only gained about 200 yards of river. A big part of
the problem was that the wind kept blowing me into the shoreline eddys and
I would get washed back to the top of the stretch I had just rowed. After
about an hour, I was so exhausted that I let one of the clients try to
row. He got us blown back UPSTREAM from where we had started, and I had to
regain his ground as well as my own. We stopped and made lunch less than 2
miles from where we spent the night before. It was the second hardest day
ever on a river....

--riverman

hi riverman, paddlers,

just when you thought your hear it all!

we ww paddlers tend to think ww is tougher than sea, but wind does make sea
conditions as tough as any ww. i've been brought to a halt in my 19'
racing sea kayak by winds and surfed unexpected, large waves on "fla****er".
infact, that why I think "fla****er" is a misnomer and "sea" is a better
term for non-ww.

al k

never discussed before
 

Al K wrote:

we ww paddlers tend to think ww is tougher than sea, but wind does make sea
conditions as tough as any ww. i've been brought to a halt in my 19'
racing sea kayak by winds and surfed unexpected, large waves on "fla****er".
infact, that why I think "fla****er" is a misnomer and "sea" is a better
term for non-ww.

Don't worry Al, I've encountered some pretty big waves at sea during
bofors 8 winds (gale force?), one of which rose in front of me and a
friend for maybe 15ft, both of us looked at each other with disbelief...
Then it collapsed on us, and it felt like being run over by a big truck.
Good thing we tucked in just before it came down. Managing to get
through the break only three times during a ninety minute interval was
pretty tough as well. So I've got a healthy respect for the power of the
sea!

Doesn't mean that I am not more worried about big holes and strainers...
Because I tend to chose to be on the sea when conditions aren't that
bad, I don't encounter the big waves that often any more. I don't really
feel any need to do so.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

never discussed before
 

hey wilko,
i thought you said you weren't a sea kayaker -- i guess you meant you're
an Xtreme sea kayaker.
i agree, most of the time ww kayakers are in tougher waters than sea
kayakers -- just the natures of ww'ers and sea kayakers.
cheers, al k

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
Al K wrote:

we ww paddlers tend to think ww is tougher than sea, but wind does make
sea conditions as tough as any ww. i've been brought to a halt in my
19' racing sea kayak by winds and surfed unexpected, large waves on
"fla****er". infact, that why I think "fla****er" is a misnomer and "sea"
is a better term for non-ww.

Don't worry Al, I've encountered some pretty big waves at sea during
bofors 8 winds (gale force?), one of which rose in front of me and a
friend for maybe 15ft, both of us looked at each other with disbelief...
Then it collapsed on us, and it felt like being run over by a big truck.
Good thing we tucked in just before it came down. Managing to get through
the break only three times during a ninety minute interval was pretty
tough as well. So I've got a healthy respect for the power of the sea!

Doesn't mean that I am not more worried about big holes and strainers...
Because I tend to chose to be on the sea when conditions aren't that bad,
I don't encounter the big waves that often any more. I don't really feel
any need to do so.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

never discussed before
 

Al K wrote:
hey wilko,
i thought you said you weren't a sea kayaker -- i guess you meant
you're an Xtreme sea kayaker.
i agree, most of the time ww kayakers are in tougher waters than
sea kayakers -- just the natures of ww'ers and sea kayakers.

Al, I'm not a sea kayaker, I just surf in the sea surf in my playboat
(used to be in longer boats with more volume) and I've paddled a sea
kayak once or twice.

IMO that makes me a WW kayaker with some playboating tricks up his
sleeve (which helps to get out of some holes and other nasty situations)
and just enough surfing experience to not having had to swim in the sea
for the last decade. :-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

never discussed before
 

Wilko,
I take your word -- you're not a sea kayaker.
I've seen sea kayaks paddled in ww races, as at Great Falls, Maryland,
USA. And most of us have sea paddled our ww kayaks. A ww kayak is far
superior to a sea kayak in sea surf, and I don't even consider using a sea
kayak in surf any more. Heck, I even like to paddle my ww boat (Riot
Hammer -- a 9' behomith by today's ww standards) in the sea when I'm not
going far or fast because ww boats require good paddling technique.
What's more important -- where you paddle or what you paddle?
If I'm in ww, in a ww boat, swimming (unintentionally), in a sea kayak,
or a raft, I consider it ww kayaking . And so for sea.
Al K

Al, I'm not a sea kayaker, I just surf in the sea surf in my playboat
(used to be in longer boats with more volume) and I've paddled a sea kayak
once or twice.

IMO that makes me a WW kayaker with some playboating tricks up his sleeve
(which helps to get out of some holes and other nasty situations) and just
enough surfing experience to not having had to swim in the sea for the
last decade. :-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

never discussed before
 

riverman wrote:

On a Grand Canyon trip many years ago (wow, like almost 20!!!) there was
such a headwind one day in Marble Canyon that I rowed with all my strength
for several hours and only gained about 200 yards of river. A big part of
the problem was that the wind kept blowing me into the shoreline eddys and I
would get washed back to the top of the stretch I had just rowed. After
about an hour, I was so exhausted that I let one of the clients try to row.
He got us blown back UPSTREAM from where we had started, and I had to regain
his ground as well as my own. We stopped and made lunch less than 2 miles
from where we spent the night before. It was the second hardest day ever on
a river....

What was the hardest day?

The Eel river between Alderpoint and Fort Seward is mostly wide open
with forest on the west bank and oak-dotted grassland on the east bank.
But at one spot the river narrows down with a cliff on each side, only
a dozen meters apart. The Eel is famous for prevailing northwest winds,
and we got to this spot in the afternoon, when upstream winds are at a
maximum. The three rafts on this trip took at least an hour, all rowing
as hard as possible, to make it past this spot.

never discussed before
 

And I would have said the section of the Eel below Eel Rock but above the
low water bridge. Years ago, open canoes, flowing @8,000, we had a head
wind that created white caps, and brought the group to a standstill. One
couple mutinied, in the middle of no where, and it took work to convince
them they had to continue. Never saw them again after the trip, and we
don't go down to the confluence anymore.

Carol

"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ...
riverman wrote:

The Eel river between Alderpoint and Fort Seward is mostly wide open
with forest on the west bank and oak-dotted grassland on the east bank.
But at one spot the river narrows down with a cliff on each side, only
a dozen meters apart. The Eel is famous for prevailing northwest winds,
and we got to this spot in the afternoon, when upstream winds are at a
maximum. The three rafts on this trip took at least an hour, all rowing
as hard as possible, to make it past this spot.