I've been reading boating books, many written in the US, for a few
weeks now. They talk a lot about boats like 30 foot sport fishermen,
but when I wander about the local marinas here (Helsinki, Finland) I
hardly see those boats at all. Some other types seem very rare as well,
such as bowriders, bass boats... not to mention pontoon boats.

We do have some variety too, but some examples on what kind of rough
(power boat) categories are common:
-smallish open boats, 4-5 meters (~15 feet), very abundant class, eg.
Busters http://www.buster.fi/?id=787. This brand makes aluminium boats
and is very popular, but many boats in this class are in fiberglass as
well, of course. Some boats are in ABS plastic. Side consoles, center
consoles, etc go under this class...
-hard top boats, looking usually something like this:
http://www.boat.no/hansvik/hansvik-18-hardtop-3.JPG.
-runabouts (many with covers to shield the boat/you from the elements)
-cruising boats (touring/travel boats?), like
http://www.ostamyy.com/veneet/kuvat/scan_511_468.jpg (a bit large
specimen here)
-sailboats could be a bit over 10%, maybe 15%, of all boats around here

A small minority of boats are "new" while most boats date back to 90's,
80's, and earlier decades...

I'm wondering what all kind of factors can cause these differences
between countries and locales. Can anybody comment on differences
between different states in the US or what kind of boats people use in
the European countries, and in the rest of the world... Japan etc?

It's obvious that the kind of climate and the kind of waters you
operate in has an effect. Runabouts, hardtops, cruisers and sailboats
offer some protection from the elements so that probably makes them
popular here.

Socio-economic factors play a part. The Finnish society feeds an
abundant middle class which results in lots of small boats. Shiny
express cruisers and yachts are rare, concentrating in areas like
downtown Helsinki. Contrast with the US which caters more to the upper
social classes, financially speaking. Different factors can influence
who takes up boating in the first place. A wet marina slip for a boat
with a 10 foot beam can be under 250 USD per season in Helsinki. I
gather in certain places in the US or around London for example that
figure is much higher!

I wonder how much the local culture or the mentality of the population
affects the choice of boat type. These factors may be hard to
distinguish from the ones above. In the US, large power boats may be
popular because the nation as a whole likes to burn oil in internal
combustion engines. But this is also economicly hardwired in low
taxation of gasoline. The absence of sports fishermen in Finland could
be explained by culture but also we don't have any oceans nor tuna to
fish in it...

I don't know why bowriders are rare around here. Perhaps the US boating
population places much more importance on water sports (not too popular
in Finland I think). This could be connected to the cold climate and
roughness of waters (minor sea) around here. Fishing I think is by far
the most popular activity to combine with boating in Finland.

I hope you found the speculation interesting,
Risto Varanka

Varis wrote:
I've been reading boating books, many written in the US, for a few
weeks now. They talk a lot about boats like 30 foot sport fishermen,
but when I wander about the local marinas here (Helsinki, Finland) I
hardly see those boats at all. Some other types seem very rare as well,
such as bowriders, bass boats... not to mention pontoon boats.

We do have some variety too, but some examples on what kind of rough
(power boat) categories are common:
-smallish open boats, 4-5 meters (~15 feet), very abundant class, eg.
Busters http://www.buster.fi/?id=787. This brand makes aluminium boats
and is very popular, but many boats in this class are in fiberglass as
well, of course. Some boats are in ABS plastic. Side consoles, center
consoles, etc go under this class...
-hard top boats, looking usually something like this:
http://www.boat.no/hansvik/hansvik-18-hardtop-3.JPG.
-runabouts (many with covers to shield the boat/you from the elements)
-cruising boats (touring/travel boats?), like
http://www.ostamyy.com/veneet/kuvat/scan_511_468.jpg (a bit large
specimen here)
-sailboats could be a bit over 10%, maybe 15%, of all boats around here

A small minority of boats are "new" while most boats date back to 90's,
80's, and earlier decades...

I'm wondering what all kind of factors can cause these differences
between countries and locales. Can anybody comment on differences
between different states in the US or what kind of boats people use in
the European countries, and in the rest of the world... Japan etc?

It's obvious that the kind of climate and the kind of waters you
operate in has an effect. Runabouts, hardtops, cruisers and sailboats
offer some protection from the elements so that probably makes them
popular here.

Socio-economic factors play a part. The Finnish society feeds an
abundant middle class which results in lots of small boats. Shiny
express cruisers and yachts are rare, concentrating in areas like
downtown Helsinki. Contrast with the US which caters more to the upper
social classes, financially speaking. Different factors can influence
who takes up boating in the first place. A wet marina slip for a boat
with a 10 foot beam can be under 250 USD per season in Helsinki. I
gather in certain places in the US or around London for example that
figure is much higher!

I wonder how much the local culture or the mentality of the population
affects the choice of boat type. These factors may be hard to
distinguish from the ones above. In the US, large power boats may be
popular because the nation as a whole likes to burn oil in internal
combustion engines. But this is also economicly hardwired in low
taxation of gasoline. The absence of sports fishermen in Finland could
be explained by culture but also we don't have any oceans nor tuna to
fish in it...

I don't know why bowriders are rare around here. Perhaps the US boating
population places much more importance on water sports (not too popular
in Finland I think). This could be connected to the cold climate and
roughness of waters (minor sea) around here. Fishing I think is by far
the most popular activity to combine with boating in Finland.

I hope you found the speculation interesting,
Risto Varanka

What do you pay for a liter of diesel fuel in Finnland?
What do you pay for a liter of gasoline?

That Buster XXL is way cool!


Varis wrote:
I've been reading boating books, many written in the US, for a few
weeks now. They talk a lot about boats like 30 foot sport fishermen,
but when I wander about the local marinas here (Helsinki, Finland) I
hardly see those boats at all. Some other types seem very rare as well,
such as bowriders, bass boats... not to mention pontoon boats.

We do have some variety too, but some examples on what kind of rough
(power boat) categories are common:
-smallish open boats, 4-5 meters (~15 feet), very abundant class, eg.
Busters http://www.buster.fi/?id=787. This brand makes aluminium boats
and is very popular, but many boats in this class are in fiberglass as
well, of course. Some boats are in ABS plastic. Side consoles, center
consoles, etc go under this class...
-hard top boats, looking usually something like this:
http://www.boat.no/hansvik/hansvik-18-hardtop-3.JPG.
-runabouts (many with covers to shield the boat/you from the elements)
-cruising boats (touring/travel boats?), like
http://www.ostamyy.com/veneet/kuvat/scan_511_468.jpg (a bit large
specimen here)
-sailboats could be a bit over 10%, maybe 15%, of all boats around here

A small minority of boats are "new" while most boats date back to 90's,
80's, and earlier decades...

I'm wondering what all kind of factors can cause these differences
between countries and locales. Can anybody comment on differences
between different states in the US or what kind of boats people use in
the European countries, and in the rest of the world... Japan etc?

It's obvious that the kind of climate and the kind of waters you
operate in has an effect. Runabouts, hardtops, cruisers and sailboats
offer some protection from the elements so that probably makes them
popular here.

Socio-economic factors play a part. The Finnish society feeds an
abundant middle class which results in lots of small boats. Shiny
express cruisers and yachts are rare, concentrating in areas like
downtown Helsinki. Contrast with the US which caters more to the upper
social classes, financially speaking. Different factors can influence
who takes up boating in the first place. A wet marina slip for a boat
with a 10 foot beam can be under 250 USD per season in Helsinki. I
gather in certain places in the US or around London for example that
figure is much higher!

I wonder how much the local culture or the mentality of the population
affects the choice of boat type. These factors may be hard to
distinguish from the ones above. In the US, large power boats may be
popular because the nation as a whole likes to burn oil in internal
combustion engines. But this is also economicly hardwired in low
taxation of gasoline. The absence of sports fishermen in Finland could
be explained by culture but also we don't have any oceans nor tuna to
fish in it...

I don't know why bowriders are rare around here. Perhaps the US boating
population places much more importance on water sports (not too popular
in Finland I think). This could be connected to the cold climate and
roughness of waters (minor sea) around here. Fishing I think is by far
the most popular activity to combine with boating in Finland.

I hope you found the speculation interesting,
Risto Varanka

On 14 Jul 2006 21:39:57 -0700, tschnautz wrote:
I'm wondering what all kind of factors can cause these differences
between countries and locales.

What a great question. Aside from what you've already mentioned, I
think "tradition" has a lot to do with it.
In the late 70's early 80's when Vietnamese imigrants were new to our
area (MS Gulf Coast), We were totally amazed to see them rig their
shrimp boats with poles, the size of telephone poles, sticking out the
bow of their boats and pushing their shrimp nets ahead of them instead
of dragging behind like the local shrimpers had always done. I guess
that must be the way it's done in Vietnam. For awhile, it appeared the
locals were being out shrimped!
They've (Vietnamese) mostly been assimilated into Americana by now
though and I haven't seen a boat rigged with bow nets in several
years.

Rick

ooops.... should have been:
On 14 Jul 2006 18:25:55 -0700, "Varis" wrote:

Rick

PhantMan wrote:
On 14 Jul 2006 21:39:57 -0700, tschnautz wrote:
What a great question. Aside from what you've already mentioned, I
think "tradition" has a lot to do with it.
In the late 70's early 80's when Vietnamese imigrants were new to our
area (MS Gulf Coast), We were totally amazed to see them rig their
shrimp boats with poles, the size of telephone poles, sticking out the
bow of their boats and pushing their shrimp nets ahead of them instead
of dragging behind like the local shrimpers had always done. I guess
that must be the way it's done in Vietnam. For awhile, it appeared the
locals were being out shrimped!
They've (Vietnamese) mostly been assimilated into Americana by now
though and I haven't seen a boat rigged with bow nets in several
years.

Rick

I used to live in Helsinki, worked for Wartsila shipyard so I spend a
lot of time on the water... My thoughts a

-Fuel Price
-% of income spent on a hobby that is really only available 3 months and
even in that 3 months, the water is COLD!!! (Same reason why there
are more large boats in the southern part of the US...BUT, Michigan has
more boats per capita than Florida...wierd)
-Pontoon boats/bass Boats etc are fresh water lake boats, there are a
lot of lakes in Finland but I don't think the culture has embraced boat
fishing (bass boat) and lounging (Pontoon)
-30' SPORT Fisherman are sal****er boats and getting RARE in the US.
40' to 60' are more common and the smaller boats are going with
outboards and are considered OPEN fisherman... 20' to 35' is common.
These are popular because of the vast amount of sport fishing along our
coasts. South Florida, most species can be caught within a couple miles
of the shore, in the east central (NC, SC, VA, etc) you have to travel
100 miles or more for Tuna and Mahi-mahi, so boats have to be able to
travel to those waters.

-UP NORTH in the US and on the freshwater, you will find more older
boats...12 months/year usage and the sal****er and Sun take a toll on
boats and it is rare to see boats over 25 years old in Florida.






Varis wrote:
I've been reading boating books, many written in the US, for a few
weeks now. They talk a lot about boats like 30 foot sport fishermen,
but when I wander about the local marinas here (Helsinki, Finland) I
hardly see those boats at all. Some other types seem very rare as well,
such as bowriders, bass boats... not to mention pontoon boats.

We do have some variety too, but some examples on what kind of rough
(power boat) categories are common:
-smallish open boats, 4-5 meters (~15 feet), very abundant class, eg.
Busters http://www.buster.fi/?id=787. This brand makes aluminium boats
and is very popular, but many boats in this class are in fiberglass as
well, of course. Some boats are in ABS plastic. Side consoles, center
consoles, etc go under this class...
-hard top boats, looking usually something like this:
http://www.boat.no/hansvik/hansvik-18-hardtop-3.JPG.
-runabouts (many with covers to shield the boat/you from the elements)
-cruising boats (touring/travel boats?), like
http://www.ostamyy.com/veneet/kuvat/scan_511_468.jpg (a bit large
specimen here)
-sailboats could be a bit over 10%, maybe 15%, of all boats around here

A small minority of boats are "new" while most boats date back to 90's,
80's, and earlier decades...

I'm wondering what all kind of factors can cause these differences
between countries and locales. Can anybody comment on differences
between different states in the US or what kind of boats people use in
the European countries, and in the rest of the world... Japan etc?

It's obvious that the kind of climate and the kind of waters you
operate in has an effect. Runabouts, hardtops, cruisers and sailboats
offer some protection from the elements so that probably makes them
popular here.

Socio-economic factors play a part. The Finnish society feeds an
abundant middle class which results in lots of small boats. Shiny
express cruisers and yachts are rare, concentrating in areas like
downtown Helsinki. Contrast with the US which caters more to the upper
social classes, financially speaking. Different factors can influence
who takes up boating in the first place. A wet marina slip for a boat
with a 10 foot beam can be under 250 USD per season in Helsinki. I
gather in certain places in the US or around London for example that
figure is much higher!

I wonder how much the local culture or the mentality of the population
affects the choice of boat type. These factors may be hard to
distinguish from the ones above. In the US, large power boats may be
popular because the nation as a whole likes to burn oil in internal
combustion engines. But this is also economicly hardwired in low
taxation of gasoline. The absence of sports fishermen in Finland could
be explained by culture but also we don't have any oceans nor tuna to
fish in it...

I don't know why bowriders are rare around here. Perhaps the US boating
population places much more importance on water sports (not too popular
in Finland I think). This could be connected to the cold climate and
roughness of waters (minor sea) around here. Fishing I think is by far
the most popular activity to combine with boating in Finland.

I hope you found the speculation interesting,
Risto Varanka

Chuck Gould wrote:

What do you pay for a liter of diesel fuel in Finnland?
What do you pay for a liter of gasoline?

For drivers, diesel seems to be just over 1 euro and gasoline around
1.4 euros. In marinas fuel is more expensive, I haven't really checked
prices there but I'd figure the difference is less than 20% so gasoline
could be around 1.6 euros...

There is general fuel data at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol.
Seems we are about level with Japan, I recall they were said to pay
double our price about 10 years ago.

Risto

Chuck Gould wrote:
What do you pay for a liter of diesel fuel in Finnland?
What do you pay for a liter of gasoline?


That's likely to be one strong reason why there aren't many
go-fast boats, or huge show-off sportfish types, in Finland.


Varis wrote:
For drivers, diesel seems to be just over 1 euro and gasoline around
1.4 euros. In marinas fuel is more expensive, I haven't really checked
prices there but I'd figure the difference is less than 20% so gasoline
could be around 1.6 euros...

There is general fuel data at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol.
Seems we are about level with Japan, I recall they were said to pay
double our price about 10 years ago.


Well, that's progress... and you all didn't have to invade
any Arab countries to do it!

I think there are two factors, both cultural: America is
very much a land of conspicuous consumption & easy credit...
the other is that the workboat types in our respective
countries are quite different in looks & form. Modern boats
may have evolved thru design towards similar forms but
started from a long ways apart!

Fair Skies- Doug King

Ed wrote:
-% of income spent on a hobby that is really only available 3 months and
even in that 3 months, the water is COLD!!!

Our seasonal cycle means even (cross-country) skiing or snowboarding is
available just 3 months in Southern Finland, but the point about water
being cold is good. Even in late July it can be a bit tough to find
water that's really warm enough to swim in comfortably. Rivers are a
good bet but large lakes are a different matter altogether. Considering
you are somewhat protected from the winds and mostly quite dry in your
average runabout, it's not so extraordinary to choose to stay in the
runabout instead of hopping out in skis.

-Pontoon boats/bass Boats etc are fresh water lake boats, there are a
lot of lakes in Finland but I don't think the culture has embraced boat
fishing (bass boat) and lounging (Pontoon)

The concept of lounging got me thinking and maybe when we want to
explain things like pontoon boats it's a good idea to take a closer
look at the local peculiarities. Boating is a part of the geography,
climate, culture and traditions of a region... So take the concept of
lounging and ask what a Finn does when he wants to relax and spend a
day or two with good friends?

The answer is that he heads for the cabin for a weekend of relaxing
(and drinking, in many cases). Cabin culture is something which pretty
much exploded in the latter part of the 20th century. A cabin somewhere
a bit more into the mainland is a kind of a must have for a
self-respecting middle class family. Typically you own a little patch
of land on the shore of one of those numerous lakes in Finland, you
have a cabin there and usually a separate hut/cabin with a sauna -
right next to the water of course. That way you can head right in to
the water from the sauna and back. Doesn't matter if the water is not
warm enough for swimming, you don't have to stay long and the sauna
will be pretty warm anyway.

So, the most important competitor of the pontoon boat would be Finnish
cabin with sauna. Typically it's an already existing piece of
infrastructure with little additional costs for usage. It can serve
large groups, doesn't require much maintenance, can be combined with
other activities at the cabin, and is fully usable even in late
September... It's not only tradition but given the geography with
abundant shoreline inland, you can construct a sauna-by-the-water
almost anywhere where you might use a pontoon boat.

I think this relates to bass boats as well. Many cabin owners have a
some kind of a boat, and they often like to use it for fishing. But
it's mostly an unglorified little boat (dinghy? - about 12') with a
small outboard (10 hp or less) or even with oars only. Cabin owners
don't want the expensive construction of bass boats with raised decks,
performance etc. Usually the boats can double in a hauling/passenger
role as you may need to transport stuff over the little lake to your
cabin. So instead of a costly, involved, and specialized boat - the
performance fishing boat, the bass boat - the cabin owner goes with a
simple, low-end, convenient and all-around solution, the little
cabin/cottage boat. A Terhi 385 could be typical:
http://www.terhi.fi/static_2003/eng/boat_385.php (Make sure to read the
ad blurb/description there, btw

I suppose we solved a few mysteries there...
Risto

Hmm... we don't have any other Europeans in this group? :-/

Some more notes on boating in Finland follows...

We have LOTS of boatable water where our population is concentrated in.
Have a look at
http://tinyurl.com/hxs44 . So no wonder boating is a part of our
history and everyday leisure. There are almost 1 million boats in
Finland but only 5 million people!

I have a catalogue/buyer's guide which lists "all" boats sold in
Finland - 1730 different models. For power boats, the vast majority
are domestic brands. There are also several brands from the US
(Bayliner, Boston Whaler, Caravelle, Formula, Fountain, Monterey,
Rinker, Sea Ray, Stingray) and Italy. A few from others, mostly
different European countries. I think US built cruisers at least are
somewhat popular - one can see quite a few of those in downtown
Helsinki, even ones over 30 feet.

It's interesting to note how the pleasure boat markets change over
time. Like the ebbing popularity of jet boats or the surge of deck
boats.

It seems that the pure runabouts (closed foredeck, windshield, open
deck/cockpit mid/aft) have fallen out of fashion, due to
"impracticality". I think this is true both in the US and Finland - in
that buyer's guide above, the only pure runabouts are high-performance,
expensive deep Vs. Boats have grown and can offer more complex designs
these days.

There are almost no displacement or semi-displacement models available
for power boats now. This means that our traditional cruising boat
style has changed quite a bit. Now a popular concept is a boat with an
enclosed cabin which takes up the middle, there is a small open deck
and a swim platform aft, the bow may have an open deck or be a little
cabin with berths. This kind of boat starts from 19 feet. Eg. look at
the 26 foot boat from Bella,
http://www.bellaboats.fi/service.cntum?pageId=103225, this is a fairly
luxurious boat by Finnish standards and there is a linked review from a
British magazine. I think this is a great concept in our conditions - a
cabin is way more weatherproof than the open spaces on day cruisers or
hardtops, the boat still has some advantages of open boats, and a 20
foot variant can still be somewhat affordable. Is this kind of a boat
concept unknown in the US?

The larger, sporty Busters (like the XXL) are quite popular in these
areas. I haven't been around marinas for long yet, but I've spotted at
least 2 Buster Magnums (their flagship). Compared to housing prices in
Helsinki, it's not that expensive! These days one can also spot the
occasional large RIB.

Does anyone have some nice links on the history of US (or European)
work boats?

Are sailing boats popular in the US?

Risto