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Boating magazines
There's been too much discussion of trolling and net nannying lately. Here's
an opportunity go get back on topic and discuss boating. Here's a few questions to get the ball rolling. Boating magazines: Why do we buy them? Do we rely on them to make buying decisions? Do we expect honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? Do we get honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? Do advertisers influence magazine content (other than their ads)? Do some manufacturers bribe publication personnel to get favorable press? Jim |
Boating magazines
Jim wrote:
: There's been too much discussion of trolling and net nannying lately. Here's : an opportunity go get back on topic and discuss boating. Here's a few : questions to get the ball rolling. : Boating magazines: : Why do we buy them? : Do we rely on them to make buying decisions? : Do we expect honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? : Do we get honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? : Do advertisers influence magazine content (other than their ads)? : Do some manufacturers bribe publication personnel to get favorable press? : Jim I subscribe mainly to Trailer Boats Magazine. I read it for technical articles, human interes artles and to vicariously "boat" when I'm not boating. I also have a subscription to Hal Schell's (RIP) Bay and Delta Yachtsman magazine. I don't own a yacht but it has good, interesting articles on the California Delta areas. Buying decisions... probably not. I usually only find positive comments in the reviews and they're a bit biased although still interesting. b. |
Boating magazines
Jim wrote:
There's been too much discussion of trolling and net nannying lately. Here's an opportunity go get back on topic and discuss boating. Here's a few questions to get the ball rolling. I would be surprised if anyone disagrees with my evaluation of boating magazines but what they heck. Boating magazines: Why do we buy them? I have when I was in the market for a new boat or a new accessories. I view them as a nice catalog or brochure, with more information and description than the West Marine Catalog. It helps me narrow done my choices. Do we rely on them to make buying decisions? I use them the same way I would use this NG as an opportunity to narrow down my choices, but do not take the info as the gosple. Do we expect honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? I expect the information to be factually correct, but understand all of the info provided is desinged to highlight the products features and benefits. Normally they are not, nor do they pretend to be a crtical evaluation of the product as it compares to others in it's field. If the boating magazine reviewed the product, and it was a piece of **** that they could not say anything positive, they normally decline to write the article. You will find very very few negative evalations in any of the magazines. Do we get honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? see above Do advertisers influence magazine content (other than their ads)? It is very common for pieces about a product catagory to be written so the mag can sell ads space around the article. I don't think the advertisers need to try to influence the mag, it is a very symbiotic relationship between boating mags, mfg'ers and magazine buyers. Do some manufacturers bribe publication personnel to get favorable press? Why should the boating industry be any different than any other industry? I would think there are competitant honest individuals in the boating press, and there are sleeze balls. You probably have the same in your industry. Most magazines try their best not to provide false information, they just sell features of whatever product they are "reviewing". From what I have seen, Chuck is one of the honest ones who does his best to sell the sizzle whenever he writes an article. The idea is to promote the hobby, the products and the mfg'ers. Why do you ask? Jim -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
Jim wrote: There's been too much discussion of trolling and net nannying lately. Here's an opportunity go get back on topic and discuss boating. Here's a few questions to get the ball rolling. Boating magazines: Why do we buy them? It would be unusual for anybody to buy one. The vast majority are available on a free circulation basis. Sometimes there's a charge for magazines normally picked up at a stand to be mailed to your house, but most of the "subscription only" titles are now free. Despite a cover price of several dollars, I don't pay for Sea or Power & Motoryacht, for example. Just being able to add another name to the "paid circulation" (guffaw, guffaw) numbers is worth more than the price of a subscription. Do we rely on them to make buying decisions? You shouldn't rely exclusively on any one source. You should gather information from multiple sources and consider your subjective preferences as well. Do we expect honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? I've never really seen a boat "review" in a boating magazine. What you see in most are product information pieces. IOW: Here are the prominent features of this particular product. Do we get honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? Nearly always. Remember that if you're considering boats with a proper design and hull configuration for your intended purpose and if the boat is adequately stout for the conditions under which it is intended to be used, most of the reasons that you, personally, would dislike a boat are going to be subjective. Do advertisers influence magazine content (other than their ads)? Yes and no. Most magazines are not going to devote a lot of ink to publicizing products that are not advertised in the magazine (and especially won't do a lavish spread on a non-advertiser's product that competes with a major supporter). 1/2 of the articles in the magazine I write and edit for have nothing to do with a specific product. Do some manufacturers bribe publication personnel to get favorable press? Unfortunately, not in my experience. :-) |
Boating magazines
Harry Krause wrote:
s of this particular product. You're reading the wrong magazine. Try Passagemaker. It *reviews* boats and brings up the good, the bad, and the ugly? Does the magazine sell ad space to boat builders and boat products? I would read any review of any boat or product with a very jaded eye. I have read Passagemaker a number of years ago, and it was a great magazine with some great articles, but I can't remember one product review where they said a product was an inferior product to brand x. The good the bad and the ugly I remember were minor little tweaks the author would like to see improved, but overall they always think it is one hell of a boat or product for a certain segment of the market. At $38 per year or about $4.50 a copy, the publisher is not making his money from the subscription sales. Things might have changed since I read the mag, but it seems like a bad business model for a publishing company. -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
"Jim" wrote in message nk.net... There's been too much discussion of trolling and net nannying lately. Here's an opportunity go get back on topic and discuss boating. Here's a few questions to get the ball rolling. Boating magazines: Why do we buy them? No. Do we rely on them to make buying decisions? No. Do we expect honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? Depends on the publication, but generally no. Do we get honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? Depends on the publication, but generally no. Do advertisers influence magazine content (other than their ads)? Again, it depends on the publication but generally yes. Do some manufacturers bribe publication personnel to get favorable press? Possible. Payola. Gifts. Reduced prices. Who knows for sure. Jim |
Boating magazines
Harry Krause wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: Harry Krause wrote: s of this particular product. You're reading the wrong magazine. Try Passagemaker. It *reviews* boats and brings up the good, the bad, and the ugly? Does the magazine sell ad space to boat builders and boat products? I would read any review of any boat or product with a very jaded eye. I have read Passagemaker a number of years ago, and it was a great magazine with some great articles, but I can't remember one product review where they said a product was an inferior product to brand x. The good the bad and the ugly I remember were minor little tweaks the author would like to see improved, but overall they always think it is one hell of a boat or product for a certain segment of the market. At $38 per year or about $4.50 a copy, the publisher is not making his money from the subscription sales. Things might have changed since I read the mag, but it seems like a bad business model for a publishing company. Since you have no admitted area of expertise, the only judgment I can make on your pronouncements is that they are worthless. I didn't realize this thread was about my area of expertise. I thought it was about individuals opinions concerning boating magazine and their "reviews" of new boats and products. Jim was wondering about how much weight individuals place on the info provided in boating magazines. I really thought my position would go unchallenged, but you have a different opinion, so that is good. Do you find all of the product reviews in Passagemaker to be completely unbiased without any concern towards the advertising dollars paid by the mfg'er? -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
Harry Krause wrote: You're reading the wrong magazine. Try Passagemaker. It *reviews* boats and brings up the good, the bad, and the ugly. Nonsense. I've been on press runs with some of the writers in the Pacific NW who write some of the reviews for Passagemaker. Their "review" of the Nordic Tug we were last on in this specific situation was far more glowing than mine. Care to reference any article appearing in Passagemaker that pronounced a boat (that you personally think is a piece of crap) a piece of crap? I think there's less editorial integrity at Passagemaker since the Parlatore's sold out to Boat Trader, but that's simply my personal impression and you would be entitled to disagree. |
Boating magazines
" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message . .. "Jim" wrote in message nk.net... There's been too much discussion of trolling and net nannying lately. Here's an opportunity go get back on topic and discuss boating. Here's a few questions to get the ball rolling. Boating magazines: Why do we buy them? I don't Do we rely on them to make buying decisions? No. Do we expect honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? Depends on the publication, but generally no. Do we get honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? Depends on the publication, but generally no. Do advertisers influence magazine content (other than their ads)? Again, it depends on the publication but generally yes. Do some manufacturers bribe publication personnel to get favorable press? Possible. Payola. Gifts. Reduced prices. Who knows for sure. Jim Oops......edit. |
Boating magazines
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: .. Do you find all of the product reviews in Passagemaker to be completely unbiased without any concern towards the advertising dollars paid by the mfg'er? -- Reggie Several years ago now, in Passagemaker, there was a major advertiser selling toilet paper oil filters. Perhaps it was just a coincidence, but month after month there seemed to be feature articles about the "miracles" of TP oil filtration. The TP filter guy stopped advertising, and while it has been several months since I last thumbed through a Passagemaker magazine I think it's been a lot longer since I've noticed any TP filter articles there. Are TP oil filters "bad"? Probably depends on who you ask. Point: If you don't notice any correlation between advertising content and feature articles in any "enthusiast" magazine (boating, autos, model building, hunting, fishing, photography, computers, etc) it's more likely a lack of careful examination than any saintly editorial "purity" in play. I can tell you for a fact that at least years ago, when I was in the auto business, being named "Car of the Year" was available to any Motor Trend advertiser willing to pay the big enough bucks. Anybody else remember the Krysler K Kar, "Car of the Year" award? :-) |
Boating magazines
Chuck Gould wrote:
snip.. I can tell you for a fact that at least years ago, when I was in the auto business, being named "Car of the Year" was available to any Motor Trend advertiser willing to pay the big enough bucks. Anybody else remember the Krysler K Kar, "Car of the Year" award? :-) I got sucked into buying the 1985 model. That thing would blow head gaskets every 25000-30000 km. |
Boating magazines
On 27 Jun 2006 15:34:29 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: . Do you find all of the product reviews in Passagemaker to be completely unbiased without any concern towards the advertising dollars paid by the mfg'er? -- Reggie Several years ago now, in Passagemaker, there was a major advertiser selling toilet paper oil filters. Perhaps it was just a coincidence, but month after month there seemed to be feature articles about the "miracles" of TP oil filtration. The TP filter guy stopped advertising, and while it has been several months since I last thumbed through a Passagemaker magazine I think it's been a lot longer since I've noticed any TP filter articles there. Are TP oil filters "bad"? Probably depends on who you ask. Point: If you don't notice any correlation between advertising content and feature articles in any "enthusiast" magazine (boating, autos, model building, hunting, fishing, photography, computers, etc) it's more likely a lack of careful examination than any saintly editorial "purity" in play. I can tell you for a fact that at least years ago, when I was in the auto business, being named "Car of the Year" was available to any Motor Trend advertiser willing to pay the big enough bucks. Anybody else remember the Krysler K Kar, "Car of the Year" award? :-) There is one enthusiast magazine without said correlation. That is 'Motorcycle Consumer News'. No advertising, just the good and the bad and actual comparisons. http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/editor_intro.asp We need one of these for boats. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
Boating magazines
JohnH wrote:
On 27 Jun 2006 15:34:29 -0700, "Chuck Gould" wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: . Do you find all of the product reviews in Passagemaker to be completely unbiased without any concern towards the advertising dollars paid by the mfg'er? -- Reggie Several years ago now, in Passagemaker, there was a major advertiser selling toilet paper oil filters. Perhaps it was just a coincidence, but month after month there seemed to be feature articles about the "miracles" of TP oil filtration. The TP filter guy stopped advertising, and while it has been several months since I last thumbed through a Passagemaker magazine I think it's been a lot longer since I've noticed any TP filter articles there. Are TP oil filters "bad"? Probably depends on who you ask. Point: If you don't notice any correlation between advertising content and feature articles in any "enthusiast" magazine (boating, autos, model building, hunting, fishing, photography, computers, etc) it's more likely a lack of careful examination than any saintly editorial "purity" in play. I can tell you for a fact that at least years ago, when I was in the auto business, being named "Car of the Year" was available to any Motor Trend advertiser willing to pay the big enough bucks. Anybody else remember the Krysler K Kar, "Car of the Year" award? :-) There is one enthusiast magazine without said correlation. That is 'Motorcycle Consumer News'. No advertising, just the good and the bad and actual comparisons. http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/editor_intro.asp We need one of these for boats. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** JohnH, There is one, It is called called Powerboat Reports. It does a decent job of not only reviewing the product but doing follow up with boat owners. http://www.powerboat-reports.com/ The biggest problem I have seen is a limited number of reviews for each product category. -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: JohnH, There is one, It is called called Powerboat Reports. It does a decent job of not only reviewing the product but doing follow up with boat owners. http://www.powerboat-reports.com/ The biggest problem I have seen is a limited number of reviews for each product category. I haven't paid much attention to Powerboat Reports in the last few years. Is it still about an 8-16 page newsletter? When I last read it, it seemed to be very New England oriented. Anything built in New England was pretty good and got reviewed. Stuff from elsewhere was generally ignored. Powerboat Reports accepts no advertising (unless that has recently changed). Any magazine relying strictly on subscription income is going to have very limited staff and resources to work with. They probably don't have the capacity to print a greater number of reviews. It would be hard to develop a meaningful number of follow ups with actual owners for a lot of boats. As you know, with some of the larger boats a sales volume of a few dozen a year isn't too bad. Subtract the 90% sold to people who don't subscribe to a particular magazine, and now you're down to 5 or 6 boats. Take out another 50% who won't bother to return the survey, and you're reading a whole lot into 3, 4, or 5 responses about a boat. The Consumer Reports model is different than anything a boating magazine could even begin to attempt to do. When they review a car, for instance, they go out and buy one (anonymously) off a retail dealer's lot. They give it to a staffer to drive back and forth to work for several months, etc etc etc etc. When they look for comments from the public, they're trying to collect comments from a universe of perhaps 100,000 units sold. Big difference. You wouldn't see any articles about boats if boating magazines were expected to write a check for $750,000 to buy a new 42-foot WhatKnot just to do a boat review.......... And that's one of the reasons you will see a limited number of reviews in a publication like Powerboat Reports; There is no "relationship" with an advertiser, and a lot of manufacturers simply don't make their boats available for testing by anybody who just happens along to ask. |
Boating magazines
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:32:01 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote: JohnH wrote: On 27 Jun 2006 15:34:29 -0700, "Chuck Gould" wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: . Do you find all of the product reviews in Passagemaker to be completely unbiased without any concern towards the advertising dollars paid by the mfg'er? -- Reggie Several years ago now, in Passagemaker, there was a major advertiser selling toilet paper oil filters. Perhaps it was just a coincidence, but month after month there seemed to be feature articles about the "miracles" of TP oil filtration. The TP filter guy stopped advertising, and while it has been several months since I last thumbed through a Passagemaker magazine I think it's been a lot longer since I've noticed any TP filter articles there. Are TP oil filters "bad"? Probably depends on who you ask. Point: If you don't notice any correlation between advertising content and feature articles in any "enthusiast" magazine (boating, autos, model building, hunting, fishing, photography, computers, etc) it's more likely a lack of careful examination than any saintly editorial "purity" in play. I can tell you for a fact that at least years ago, when I was in the auto business, being named "Car of the Year" was available to any Motor Trend advertiser willing to pay the big enough bucks. Anybody else remember the Krysler K Kar, "Car of the Year" award? :-) There is one enthusiast magazine without said correlation. That is 'Motorcycle Consumer News'. No advertising, just the good and the bad and actual comparisons. http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/editor_intro.asp We need one of these for boats. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** JohnH, There is one, It is called called Powerboat Reports. It does a decent job of not only reviewing the product but doing follow up with boat owners. http://www.powerboat-reports.com/ The biggest problem I have seen is a limited number of reviews for each product category. Thanks! Do you subscribe? For $15 one gets 7 issues. Does it only produce 7 issues per year? -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
Boating magazines
I agree that Powerboat Reports is an excellent rag. Worth the $$, at
least for a few years. I finally dropped my subscription because they just kept going over the same basic stuff over and over. I know it changes over time but not that much. The only one I still receive for free is Power Cruising. Good for local knowledge stuff, but mostly more like a hotel/resort guide. Passagemaker has totally gone to ****, only reporting on whored up things and picnic boats. They've totally lost their way for their old market segment. Probably still good for smaller boats, but not for passagemakers. They're misnamed. The older copies are still worth their weight in gold though. Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: There is one, It is called called Powerboat Reports. It does a decent job of not only reviewing the product but doing follow up with boat owners. http://www.powerboat-reports.com/ |
Boating magazines
Harry Krause wrote: I doubt they'd publish an article about a boat that was a piece of crap. I find your pieces interesting sometimes, Chuck, but superficial and with too much gladhanding. I understand the pressures, though. Did standards change in the last few hours? What happened to "They review everything, good, bad or indifferent?" |
Boating magazines
"Don White" wrote in message ... Chuck Gould wrote: snip.. I can tell you for a fact that at least years ago, when I was in the auto business, being named "Car of the Year" was available to any Motor Trend advertiser willing to pay the big enough bucks. Anybody else remember the Krysler K Kar, "Car of the Year" award? :-) I got sucked into buying the 1985 model. That thing would blow head gaskets every 25000-30000 km. I had a '79 Dodge Omni. Actually it wasn't a bad little car. It was as basic as a car could be, had a 4 speed manual transmission and the engine developed 72 hp. At the time Chrysler was buying the engines for the Omni, Horizon and K-cars from Volkswagen. There was a guy I worked with that had just bought a '80 Audi 4000 and was always bragging about how fine a car it was and how superior the engine was compared to junk American cars. One day he was showing it off to a couple of people and had the hood open. I went over to the little Omni, popped the hood and showed him that the engine was almost identical to that of his Audi. (the Audi was fuel injected and the Omni had a carb, but the Audi only developed about 4 more horsepower). He didn't like that at all and ended up trading the Audi in on a Fiat Spider. Eisboch |
Boating magazines
Harry Krause wrote: In much more depth, as opposed to your gloss-over. I dunno, Chuck. You seem to be willing to promote about any brand you encounter, include Bayliners, and flatbottom boats for offshore use. OK. Here's your chance for total vindication, Harry. Why not hit the Google and find any instance where I promoted a "flat bottomed boat" for "offshore use". Offshore use. Not inland waters, Harry, "offshore use". While you are of course posting through your ever-spinning hat, I wouldn't recommend actually looking through that same fedora it while you conduct your fruitless search. :-) |
Boating magazines
Around 6/27/2006 7:00 PM, Eisboch wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message ... Chuck Gould wrote: snip.. I can tell you for a fact that at least years ago, when I was in the auto business, being named "Car of the Year" was available to any Motor Trend advertiser willing to pay the big enough bucks. Anybody else remember the Krysler K Kar, "Car of the Year" award? :-) I got sucked into buying the 1985 model. That thing would blow head gaskets every 25000-30000 km. I had a '79 Dodge Omni. Did it look anything like this? http://users.rcn.com/jdfensty/images/omni3.jpg :) -- ~/Garth - 1966 Glastron V-142 Skiflite: "Blue-Boat" "There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." -- Kenneth Grahame ~~ Ventis secundis, tene cursum ~~ |
Boating magazines
Harry Krause wrote:
Passagemaker presents a lot of information on the boats they trial, and the articles include many areas on boats that need improvement. I'm not claiming the magazine is immune to the pressures of advertising, but I don't get the feeling most of the articles they publish are advertorials. Harry, Obviously they are doing a good job, because while the articles are advertorials, you are not supposed to think they are. I always liked where they would highlight a weakness and then say "after discussing this problem with "X" he agreed and said the test boat was a prototype and the problem would be corrected in production boats" or some similar comment to make it seems like they were unbiased. I enjoyed the non product review articles in Cruising World and Passagemaker, but found their Fluff Pieces to be as obvious as in any of the boating mags. They would be very pleased to know you thought they were presenting the good, the ugly and the bad in their product reviews. Their objective really is to make you think they are presenting the good , the ugly and the bad, but in reality they really are advertorials. -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
Chuck Gould wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: JohnH, There is one, It is called called Powerboat Reports. It does a decent job of not only reviewing the product but doing follow up with boat owners. http://www.powerboat-reports.com/ The biggest problem I have seen is a limited number of reviews for each product category. I haven't paid much attention to Powerboat Reports in the last few years. Is it still about an 8-16 page newsletter? When I last read it, it seemed to be very New England oriented. Anything built in New England was pretty good and got reviewed. Stuff from elsewhere was generally ignored. Powerboat Reports accepts no advertising (unless that has recently changed). Any magazine relying strictly on subscription income is going to have very limited staff and resources to work with. They probably don't have the capacity to print a greater number of reviews. It would be hard to develop a meaningful number of follow ups with actual owners for a lot of boats. As you know, with some of the larger boats a sales volume of a few dozen a year isn't too bad. Subtract the 90% sold to people who don't subscribe to a particular magazine, and now you're down to 5 or 6 boats. Take out another 50% who won't bother to return the survey, and you're reading a whole lot into 3, 4, or 5 responses about a boat. The Consumer Reports model is different than anything a boating magazine could even begin to attempt to do. When they review a car, for instance, they go out and buy one (anonymously) off a retail dealer's lot. They give it to a staffer to drive back and forth to work for several months, etc etc etc etc. When they look for comments from the public, they're trying to collect comments from a universe of perhaps 100,000 units sold. Big difference. You wouldn't see any articles about boats if boating magazines were expected to write a check for $750,000 to buy a new 42-foot WhatKnot just to do a boat review.......... And that's one of the reasons you will see a limited number of reviews in a publication like Powerboat Reports; There is no "relationship" with an advertiser, and a lot of manufacturers simply don't make their boats available for testing by anybody who just happens along to ask. Chuck, I have to agree with your assessment of Powerboat Reports, due to it's limited market size for subscriptions, it is limited as to how many products and how detailed their reviews can be. but they still do a decent job of the products they do review. I actually found their reviews to be more valid than Consumer Reports, because they are boaters reviewing boating products. Consumer Reports often totally miss the mark with their "Best Buy" category, often endorsing a product that really should be at the bottom of the list for a number of reasons. If a mfg'er has a QC problem, and CR samples a well built product, it can get a very high rating, even though it is not representative of the average product . Other times, they identify product features that are not really important to the average user, skewing the results of their test. I think both mags do a decent job, but I have never had the confidence in CR results to pay for their magazine or purchase a report online. -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message ... Consumer Reports often totally miss the mark with their "Best Buy" category, often endorsing a product that really should be at the bottom of the list for a number of reasons. If a mfg'er has a QC problem, and CR samples a well built product, it can get a very high rating, even though it is not representative of the average product . Other times, they identify product features that are not really important to the average user, skewing the results of their test. I think both mags do a decent job, but I have never had the confidence in CR results to pay for their magazine or purchase a report online. I don't read Consumer Reports either, but I am curious as to why you have no confidence if you don't buy it or purchase reports online. How else do you read it to form your opinion? Eisboch |
Boating magazines
Eisboch wrote:
"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message ... Consumer Reports often totally miss the mark with their "Best Buy" category, often endorsing a product that really should be at the bottom of the list for a number of reasons. If a mfg'er has a QC problem, and CR samples a well built product, it can get a very high rating, even though it is not representative of the average product . Other times, they identify product features that are not really important to the average user, skewing the results of their test. I think both mags do a decent job, but I have never had the confidence in CR results to pay for their magazine or purchase a report online. I don't read Consumer Reports either, but I am curious as to why you have no confidence if you don't buy it or purchase reports online. How else do you read it to form your opinion? Eisboch Richard (or is it Dick), There are many "Best Buy" winners in categories that I am very familiar with, that I, and anyone in the business would consider the bottom of the barrel. I have asked other "experts" or those familiar with other product categories if they have seen similar results, and 100% of those I have "surveyed" have agreed they have seen similar problems with their reviews. It doesn't mean all of their evaluations are off, it just means they are off enough, that you really can not have a confidence level in their ratings. I would be interested if others in rec.boats have seen similar problems with their ratings. I am not talking about reading a review, buying the product based upon the review, and being completely happy with the product you purchased. I am talking about a product category in which you have detailed experience in either sales, marketing, manufacturing and/or service. Do you find their ratings to accurately reflect the real world? Have you found any of their "Best Buy" to actually be the "Dog" of the category? I don't believe they have sold their soul for a Best Buy rating, I just think for many reasons, they often totally miss the mark. -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
Speaking of advertising...Does anyone know which magazines have the best
circulation? Either for power or sail? The reason I ask is I have been considering advertising my product in Lats&Atts and I am trying to assess the benefit versus cost and if this is one of the better (sailing) magazines. The magazine recently printed an article (in the June issue) about my product after meeting with them at the Toronto Boat Show this past January. Sales have increased as a result, but the cost to actually advertise is expensive. The magazine (Lats&Atts) appears to be a good one to advertise my lifeline hooks in, but I am wondering if I should consider another magazine to advertise my hooks for rails (more for powerboats). So hence my question as to what magazines have the higher circulations. Mark (the Rail, Canopy, & LifeLine Hook guy) www.ripnet.com/vtf/prod03.htm "Jim" wrote in message nk.net... There's been too much discussion of trolling and net nannying lately. Here's an opportunity go get back on topic and discuss boating. Here's a few questions to get the ball rolling. Boating magazines: Why do we buy them? Do we rely on them to make buying decisions? Do we expect honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? Do we get honest reviews of boats and gear on their pages? Do advertisers influence magazine content (other than their ads)? Do some manufacturers bribe publication personnel to get favorable press? Jim |
Boating magazines
Eisboch wrote:
"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message ... Consumer Reports often totally miss the mark with their "Best Buy" category, often endorsing a product that really should be at the bottom of the list for a number of reasons. If a mfg'er has a QC problem, and CR samples a well built product, it can get a very high rating, even though it is not representative of the average product . Other times, they identify product features that are not really important to the average user, skewing the results of their test. I think both mags do a decent job, but I have never had the confidence in CR results to pay for their magazine or purchase a report online. I don't read Consumer Reports either, but I am curious as to why you have no confidence if you don't buy it or purchase reports online. How else do you read it to form your opinion? Eisboch Hee hee! Good point. Whenever I set out to buy a new auto/tool/appliance/electronic item I travel with my 'bible' in my hand. I suscribe to the magazine and took advantage of a cut rate promotional rate on the online service. |
Boating magazines
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:20:19 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:
I have never had the confidence in CR results to pay for their magazine or purchase a report online. They are not perfect and sometimes miss the mark, but on balance they are the best consumer testing and reporting organization that I'm aware of. I wouldn't dream of buying a big ticket item without checking to see what they had to say about either that specific model, or the manufacturer in general. Their automotive reporting has always been spot on im my experience, especially the reliability evaluations. |
Boating magazines
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:03:34 -0400, "Mark"
wrote: So hence my question as to what magazines have the higher circulations. I'm not sure that's the most important factor. What you really want is the magazine that deliver the highest number of actual boat owners who use them in a manner consistent with needing your product. I'd guess that Latts & Atts rates fairly well on that score. |
Boating magazines
Harry Krause wrote:
.. As I have told you before, "Reggie," since you have no obvious expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name, I consider your opinions worthless. Well if you are going to turn every discussion into personal insults it really does limit your ability to have a discussion when you have a difference of opinion. Since I have no expertise in any subject, you really should be able to do a good job debating, but you gave up as soon as someone disagreed with you. All in all, your disagreement did stir up some boating and boating mag. discussion. -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
Don White wrote:
Eisboch wrote: "Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message ... Consumer Reports often totally miss the mark with their "Best Buy" category, often endorsing a product that really should be at the bottom of the list for a number of reasons. If a mfg'er has a QC problem, and CR samples a well built product, it can get a very high rating, even though it is not representative of the average product . Other times, they identify product features that are not really important to the average user, skewing the results of their test. I think both mags do a decent job, but I have never had the confidence in CR results to pay for their magazine or purchase a report online. I don't read Consumer Reports either, but I am curious as to why you have no confidence if you don't buy it or purchase reports online. How else do you read it to form your opinion? Eisboch Hee hee! Good point. Whenever I set out to buy a new auto/tool/appliance/electronic item I travel with my 'bible' in my hand. I suscribe to the magazine and took advantage of a cut rate promotional rate on the online service. Don, As I said, I am very familiar with some of their reviews, and have discussed this with others. I am glad you have had excellent results using your bible. It really does make it easier. I tend to use online reviews (such as Cnet) where you have an editor's opinion and numerous user's opinions. -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:20:19 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: I have never had the confidence in CR results to pay for their magazine or purchase a report online. They are not perfect and sometimes miss the mark, but on balance they are the best consumer testing and reporting organization that I'm aware of. I wouldn't dream of buying a big ticket item without checking to see what they had to say about either that specific model, or the manufacturer in general. Their automotive reporting has always been spot on im my experience, especially the reliability evaluations. That might be because they have an extremly large pool of users expressing what they view as important criteria and they are providing realiability over a long period. I like the reviews where they provide both the experts and the users opinions. I feel you get the best of both worlds. I know many people who swear by CR and say they have never gone wrong buying a BB. The just missed the mark on those products I knew. -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:01:17 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: Harry Krause wrote: . As I have told you before, "Reggie," since you have no obvious expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name, I consider your opinions worthless. Well if you are going to turn every discussion into personal insults it really does limit your ability to have a discussion when you have a difference of opinion. Since I have no expertise in any subject, you really should be able to do a good job debating, but you gave up as soon as someone disagreed with you. All in all, your disagreement did stir up some boating and boating mag. discussion. Why would I want to "debate" someone with no expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name? I didn't "give up" debating you, "Reggie." I didn't play. Speaking of 'never seen boats'...Harry, you mentioned being interested in another boat. Are you considering the sale of the Parker and the 36'er, or only one of them? -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
Boating magazines
JohnH wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:01:17 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: Harry Krause wrote: . As I have told you before, "Reggie," since you have no obvious expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name, I consider your opinions worthless. Well if you are going to turn every discussion into personal insults it really does limit your ability to have a discussion when you have a difference of opinion. Since I have no expertise in any subject, you really should be able to do a good job debating, but you gave up as soon as someone disagreed with you. All in all, your disagreement did stir up some boating and boating mag. discussion. Why would I want to "debate" someone with no expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name? I didn't "give up" debating you, "Reggie." I didn't play. Speaking of 'never seen boats'...Harry, you mentioned being interested in another boat. Are you considering the sale of the Parker and the 36'er, or only one of them? -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** JohnH, If we are not careful it is easy to turn the NG back into the the slug fest some would prefer it to become. Asking about the Lobster Boat that no one has seen, is one of the topics that is sure to open up a can of worms, and is best left alone. Sometimes you just need to pretend you didn't see a post. As anyone who has spent anytime in Usenet will tell you, listing your credentials, your profession, or your extensive fleet of boats, has never kept a discussion on topic. If anything it diverts the thread off topic into the validity of the the person's profession, expertise. or the personal info as presented by the individual. My opinion of boating magazines "reviews" is accepted as fact by those in the industry, and by the average reader, including those who read PassageMaker. Heck, even Harry agreed they really don't present the good, the bad and the ugly, and they will not do a article on any product that they can not present in a favorable light. That was the point of my original post. If I was to present my resume including personal information and boating credentials, it would not have added to the on topic discussion, but would have been the equivalent of pouring gas on an open flame of personal insults. I am hoping if I ignore Harry's insults and do not throw insults back at him, he will try to stick to the discussion. If not, so be it. -- Reggie That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
Boating magazines
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:14:43 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:01:17 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: Harry Krause wrote: . As I have told you before, "Reggie," since you have no obvious expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name, I consider your opinions worthless. Well if you are going to turn every discussion into personal insults it really does limit your ability to have a discussion when you have a difference of opinion. Since I have no expertise in any subject, you really should be able to do a good job debating, but you gave up as soon as someone disagreed with you. All in all, your disagreement did stir up some boating and boating mag. discussion. Why would I want to "debate" someone with no expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name? I didn't "give up" debating you, "Reggie." I didn't play. Speaking of 'never seen boats'...Harry, you mentioned being interested in another boat. Are you considering the sale of the Parker and the 36'er, or only one of them? -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** JohnH, If we are not careful it is easy to turn the NG back into the the slug fest some would prefer it to become. Asking about the Lobster Boat that no one has seen, is one of the topics that is sure to open up a can of worms, and is best left alone. Sometimes you just need to pretend you didn't see a post. As anyone who has spent anytime in Usenet will tell you, listing your credentials, your profession, or your extensive fleet of boats, has never kept a discussion on topic. If anything it diverts the thread off topic into the validity of the the person's profession, expertise. or the personal info as presented by the individual. My opinion of boating magazines "reviews" is accepted as fact by those in the industry, and by the average reader, including those who read PassageMaker. Heck, even Harry agreed they really don't present the good, the bad and the ugly, and they will not do a article on any product that they can not present in a favorable light. That was the point of my original post. If I was to present my resume including personal information and boating credentials, it would not have added to the on topic discussion, but would have been the equivalent of pouring gas on an open flame of personal insults. I am hoping if I ignore Harry's insults and do not throw insults back at him, he will try to stick to the discussion. If not, so be it. Why are you telling me all this? The second two paragraphs have already been said, and I don't disagree with any of it. As to the first paragraph, I see nothing wrong with asking Harry a question about his boats. There is surely no reason for that question to open a can of worms and cause a 'slug fest'. It seems that incessant name-calling, personal insults, lies, and other forms of misbehavior would generate more of a slug fest. However, if one *does* live in a glass house, one shouldn't throw stones. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
Boating magazines
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:21:31 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:01:17 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: Harry Krause wrote: . As I have told you before, "Reggie," since you have no obvious expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name, I consider your opinions worthless. Well if you are going to turn every discussion into personal insults it really does limit your ability to have a discussion when you have a difference of opinion. Since I have no expertise in any subject, you really should be able to do a good job debating, but you gave up as soon as someone disagreed with you. All in all, your disagreement did stir up some boating and boating mag. discussion. Why would I want to "debate" someone with no expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name? I didn't "give up" debating you, "Reggie." I didn't play. Speaking of 'never seen boats'...Harry, you mentioned being interested in another boat. Are you considering the sale of the Parker and the 36'er, or only one of them? -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** Yes. Well, keep us posted. I may be interested once you've settled on a price. Oh, that's for the Parker, not the big one. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
Boating magazines
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:01:17 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: Harry Krause wrote: . As I have told you before, "Reggie," since you have no obvious expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name, I consider your opinions worthless. Well if you are going to turn every discussion into personal insults it really does limit your ability to have a discussion when you have a difference of opinion. Since I have no expertise in any subject, you really should be able to do a good job debating, but you gave up as soon as someone disagreed with you. All in all, your disagreement did stir up some boating and boating mag. discussion. Why would I want to "debate" someone with no expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name? I didn't "give up" debating you, "Reggie." I didn't play. Speaking of 'never seen boats'...Harry, you mentioned being interested in another boat. Are you considering the sale of the Parker and the 36'er, or only one of them? -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** Yes. Don't be so definite. I would think that a 'could be' scenario should also be considered, especially considering the fact that Harry Potter may be killed off in the next book. But then again, it could be a 'no' scenario if Ohio State wins the National Championship next this upcoming college football season. So the correct answer should be "Yes, Could Be and No." ;-) |
Boating magazines
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:36:05 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:21:31 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:01:17 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: Harry Krause wrote: . As I have told you before, "Reggie," since you have no obvious expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name, I consider your opinions worthless. Well if you are going to turn every discussion into personal insults it really does limit your ability to have a discussion when you have a difference of opinion. Since I have no expertise in any subject, you really should be able to do a good job debating, but you gave up as soon as someone disagreed with you. All in all, your disagreement did stir up some boating and boating mag. discussion. Why would I want to "debate" someone with no expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name? I didn't "give up" debating you, "Reggie." I didn't play. Speaking of 'never seen boats'...Harry, you mentioned being interested in another boat. Are you considering the sale of the Parker and the 36'er, or only one of them? -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** Yes. Well, keep us posted. I may be interested once you've settled on a price. Oh, that's for the Parker, not the big one. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** Email me an tentative, non-binding offer, and I'll let you know what I think. If I "list" it, I'll list it high, of course, and see what comes up. I'd rather wait and let more depreciation kick in. Also, I'm still in the thinking stage, as you said you were. Plus, I've got another boat to get rid of first! -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
Boating magazines
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:35 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:36:05 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:21:31 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:01:17 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: Harry Krause wrote: . As I have told you before, "Reggie," since you have no obvious expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name, I consider your opinions worthless. Well if you are going to turn every discussion into personal insults it really does limit your ability to have a discussion when you have a difference of opinion. Since I have no expertise in any subject, you really should be able to do a good job debating, but you gave up as soon as someone disagreed with you. All in all, your disagreement did stir up some boating and boating mag. discussion. Why would I want to "debate" someone with no expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name? I didn't "give up" debating you, "Reggie." I didn't play. Speaking of 'never seen boats'...Harry, you mentioned being interested in another boat. Are you considering the sale of the Parker and the 36'er, or only one of them? -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** Yes. Well, keep us posted. I may be interested once you've settled on a price. Oh, that's for the Parker, not the big one. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** Email me an tentative, non-binding offer, and I'll let you know what I think. If I "list" it, I'll list it high, of course, and see what comes up. I'd rather wait and let more depreciation kick in. Also, I'm still in the thinking stage, as you said you were. Plus, I've got another boat to get rid of first! -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** You'd be amazed at how little my Parker has depreciated. Absolutely amazed. I can still get 90-95% of what I paid. I know. I've seen the prices of the new ones! I wonder how they're selling this year. I still like that 22' Grady with the 'Grady Transom'. My wife retires next year, so we thinking of moving out of the DC area shortly thereafter. We've not yet decided where to go, and that decision will influence whether or not I buy another boat and what kind of boat (especially size-wise) that I buy. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
Boating magazines
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:02:07 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:43:35 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:36:05 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:21:31 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: JohnH wrote: On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:01:17 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Reginald P. Smithers III wrote: Harry Krause wrote: . As I have told you before, "Reggie," since you have no obvious expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name, I consider your opinions worthless. Well if you are going to turn every discussion into personal insults it really does limit your ability to have a discussion when you have a difference of opinion. Since I have no expertise in any subject, you really should be able to do a good job debating, but you gave up as soon as someone disagreed with you. All in all, your disagreement did stir up some boating and boating mag. discussion. Why would I want to "debate" someone with no expertise, no stated profession, no boat that anyone has seen, and no real name? I didn't "give up" debating you, "Reggie." I didn't play. Speaking of 'never seen boats'...Harry, you mentioned being interested in another boat. Are you considering the sale of the Parker and the 36'er, or only one of them? -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** Yes. Well, keep us posted. I may be interested once you've settled on a price. Oh, that's for the Parker, not the big one. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** Email me an tentative, non-binding offer, and I'll let you know what I think. If I "list" it, I'll list it high, of course, and see what comes up. I'd rather wait and let more depreciation kick in. Also, I'm still in the thinking stage, as you said you were. Plus, I've got another boat to get rid of first! -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** You'd be amazed at how little my Parker has depreciated. Absolutely amazed. I can still get 90-95% of what I paid. I know. I've seen the prices of the new ones! I wonder how they're selling this year. I still like that 22' Grady with the 'Grady Transom'. My wife retires next year, so we thinking of moving out of the DC area shortly thereafter. We've not yet decided where to go, and that decision will influence whether or not I buy another boat and what kind of boat (especially size-wise) that I buy. -- John H I was wondering how they were selling, too, so I asked my salesguy, and he told me they're ahead of last year. He could be b.s.'ing me, but I don't think so. He has no reason to do so. A new Parker equipped like mine is about $80,000 now. I love it. You can't go wrong with that Grady, either. A friend of mine who retired a few years ago moved to the Northern Neck of Virginia and says he and his wife like it "just fine." He lives somewhere near Reedville. The northern neck is definitely on the list of possibles, but the middle neck is currently a little higher. Mathews, VA, has been mentioned as a nice place. I'm going to take a motorcycle ride down through there in a few weeks and just scout the whole area. -- John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
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