Drag devices
 

As new tandem kayak team, we recently got caught in water that was
beyond our capability. The wind and waves quickly turned our boat and
rolled us. I was able to right the boat and climb back in; however,
I'd be dumped trying to bring it around into the wind... uktimately,
the Coast Guard had to pull us out.

First, of course, stay out of that position; however, given that
you're there, does anyone carry a drag device, aka: a sea anchor or
drogue. If so, what type and size to you use? How do you rig it? At
which end of the boat do you keep it standby? It's like a life jacket
in that, when you need it, you won't have time to dig it out and
attach it.

As I understand, a "sea anchor" is a different idea from a "drogue" in
that a sea anchor is supposed to hold you essentially stationary with
bow into the wind and a drogue is a smaller device that's towed and
keeps the stern into the wind while affording some steering of the
boat.

Am I on the right sheet of music? I see that *Para Sail* makes a 36"
drouge... I'd assume that ought to be big enough for a kayak????

Jones

Drag devices
 

I don't know anything about drogues, so I'll say something I do know
about. Before you add complex gear...
1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new
tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe
location that doesn't require Coasties.
2. Pay better attention to conditions
3. Don't go out as a single boat.

Glad to hear you're OK. Must have been a scary time.

Steve

!Jones wrote:
As new tandem kayak team, we recently got caught in water that was
beyond our capability. The wind and waves quickly turned our boat and
rolled us. I was able to right the boat and climb back in; however,
I'd be dumped trying to bring it around into the wind... uktimately,
the Coast Guard had to pull us out.

First, of course, stay out of that position; however, given that
you're there, does anyone carry a drag device, aka: a sea anchor or
drogue. If so, what type and size to you use? How do you rig it? At
which end of the boat do you keep it standby? It's like a life jacket
in that, when you need it, you won't have time to dig it out and
attach it.

As I understand, a "sea anchor" is a different idea from a "drogue" in
that a sea anchor is supposed to hold you essentially stationary with
bow into the wind and a drogue is a smaller device that's towed and
keeps the stern into the wind while affording some steering of the
boat.

Am I on the right sheet of music? I see that *Para Sail* makes a 36"
drouge... I'd assume that ought to be big enough for a kayak????

Jones


--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Drag devices
 

!Jones wrote:
As new tandem kayak team, we recently got caught in water that was
beyond our capability. The wind and waves quickly turned our boat and
rolled us. I was able to right the boat and climb back in; however,
I'd be dumped trying to bring it around into the wind... uktimately,
the Coast Guard had to pull us out.

Forgive me for not answering your actual question, but (perhaps you
might experiment with this suggestion in a strong wind under
otherwise-controlled conditions):

With a capsized boat and two swimmers, would it not make sense to
orient the boat bow-on to the wind *before* righting it (when, hull-up,
it would offer considerably less wind resistance, thus less inclination
to remain beam-on) then, after the first swimmer re-enters, have that
person maintain the orientation by paddling, while the second swimmer
re-enters? Then, having both re-entered while the boat is awash, take
turns, one pumping while the other maintains orientation by paddling.

You could, incidently, leave one cockpit half full of water and pump
the other completely dry. The boat would settle toward the end with
the half-watered cockpit, creating a weather-vane effect where the
other end would tend to point downwind. The choice of which cockpit to
leave partly full of water would be made on the basis of which way you
want the boat to point once you have yourself all sorted out. Hmmm, I
guess this weather-vane effect would be the basis for which paddler
would re-enter first: the paddler at the end you want, ultimately, to
be up-wind.

Not a kayaker, so I'm jus' speculatin' about how to re-enter. The
weather-vane effect, though, has been demonstrated in canoes making
open crossings. Usually achieved by shifting the paddler position or
the cargo, but, well... kayaks and kayakers are different, eh?


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Drag devices
 

Steve Cramer wrote:
I don't know anything about drogues, so I'll say something I do know
about. Before you add complex gear...
1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new
tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe
location that doesn't require Coasties.
2. Pay better attention to conditions
3. Don't go out as a single boat.

Glad to hear you're OK. Must have been a scary time.

Steve

!Jones wrote:
As new tandem kayak team, we recently got caught in water that was
beyond our capability. The wind and waves quickly turned our boat and
rolled us. I was able to right the boat and climb back in; however,
I'd be dumped trying to bring it around into the wind... uktimately,
the Coast Guard had to pull us out.

First, of course, stay out of that position; however, given that
you're there, does anyone carry a drag device, aka: a sea anchor or
drogue. If so, what type and size to you use? How do you rig it? At
which end of the boat do you keep it standby? It's like a life jacket
in that, when you need it, you won't have time to dig it out and
attach it.

As I understand, a "sea anchor" is a different idea from a "drogue" in
that a sea anchor is supposed to hold you essentially stationary with
bow into the wind and a drogue is a smaller device that's towed and
keeps the stern into the wind while affording some steering of the
boat.

Am I on the right sheet of music? I see that *Para Sail* makes a 36"
drouge... I'd assume that ought to be big enough for a kayak????

Jones


--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

I would echo what Steve is saying!! Sounds to me like you have some
other problems in the weight distribution in your tandem. I am not
clear about whether you were out single or tandem when you had this
incident occur. Even if you were tandem to start with, once you
rolled, you would have weight issues until you were both back in the
boat, and weight was again properly distributed..

I have seen numerous discussions about the use of sea anchors and
drogues on various sailing forums, and the consensus seems to be that
they are not recommended under normal situations where you would
typically have one ready to deploy on the deck. One big problem is that
for them to work you have to have a great deal of line deployed at the
same time. This becomes a major hazard if you are in the water, and
subject to being hung up on all that line. If the first thing you have
to do is cut the line loose, the drogue would have accomplished little,
and only constituted false assurance of being able to control your boat
in a wind.

Also when deployed they seriously hamper your ability to steer or
control the boat freely. The wave action is variable, and you need to
be flexible to respond. They were meant for larger sailing vessels to
ride out a storm in open ocean, which is not where you are typically
using a kayak. Also they would be inclined to self deploy at a very
inopertune time such as when you are in heavy surf and crossing seas!
To all of a sudden have a sea anchor inhibiting your ability to control
the boat, could be a very rude awakening! TnT

Drag devices
 

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:11:25 -0400, in rec.boats.paddle Steve Cramer
wrote:

1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new
tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe
location that doesn't require Coasties.
2. Pay better attention to conditions
3. Don't go out as a single boat.

Thank you for the lecture.

1. It was a Coast Guard sopnsored training session held with a
lifeboat standing by.

2. The conditions were pretty generic to the area in which we live: 20
knot wind, 4' chop on a 9 second period. No fun, these, but, if you
plan to paddle hereabouts, you'd better be able to deal with that.

3. When you end up in the laundry, another kayak isn't much help, IMO.
I had other boats all around me.

But, seriously, when you're flipped by a wave, are you *really*
thinking about getting some training?

Can one really learn how to handle a kayak in adverse conditions by
reading some books on the subject? ... by getting advice from
experts? We chose that spot and those conditions because we thought
they'd be challenging; however, they would not life threatening.
(Although, about my third time through the rinse cycle, I wasn't so
sure about that.)

We were not able to right the boat and remount. Our spotters gave us
time, then came in and fished us out.

On reflection, I think that a drag device might have helped... *that*
was the meat of the question. *I* couldn't orient the nose-high
tandem boat and get back to my stoker. ( And I believe I said that one
should avoid that situation.)

Now, an unsolicited lectu If you don't wish to fight incessant
flame wars, then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures. While
what you say is perfectly valid and nobody in their right mind would
argue otherwise, it comes across as pedantic and patronizing.

I *love* to fight flame wars, personally; however, I'm not seeking one
at the moment... I'm *still* sore from my Monday evening pasting in
the chop. I would suggest that no training session in the world
matches a good laundering for impressing one just how powerful the
waves are!!!

Jones

Drag devices
 

!Jones wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:11:25 -0400, in rec.boats.paddle Steve Cramer
wrote:

1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new
tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe
location that doesn't require Coasties.
2. Pay better attention to conditions
3. Don't go out as a single boat.

Thank you for the lecture.
snip

Now, an unsolicited lectu If you don't wish to fight incessant
flame wars, then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures. While
what you say is perfectly valid and nobody in their right mind would
argue otherwise, it comes across as pedantic and patronizing.

It would have helped to have included this tidbit in your original post
if you didn't want a lecture.

"It was a Coast Guard sponsored training session held with a lifeboat
standing by".

Anyone else have a vison of the Coast Guard being called for a rescue
when they read the original post? I know I did.

Drag devices
 

On 21 Jun 2006 15:41:32 -0700, in rec.boats.paddle
"Sees-koo-wee-hah-nay" wrote:

It would have helped to have included this tidbit in your original post
if you didn't want a lecture.

I'm sorry. I regret the misunderstanding. Actually, I didn't think
it was important because that wasn't the topic of my question at all;
it was a one sentence preamble, not my life's details. I guess what
I'm saying is that a lecture can make a point, but a trip through
rinse cycle makes an *impression*! If you've never been there, then
you won't understand until you have been..

And one more bit of advice, sir, short & sweet and I'll shut my yap.
People will post "here" for several reasons; some are serious and some
merely want to flame and spew. If you jump on new posters, then the
serious ones will move on and all you'll be left with is the flaming
and spewing. It's just a thought; *I* have no chips into RBP, so do
as you please.

Jones

Drag devices
 

On 21 Jun 2006 07:41:02 -0700, in rec.boats.paddle "Oci-One Kanubi"
wrote:

Forgive me for not answering your actual question, but (perhaps you
might experiment with this suggestion in a strong wind under
otherwise-controlled conditions):

Actually, it's "bang on" my topic. I get the impression that the drag
device isn't in common usage.

The other issue that presented itself in the middle of it all was that
my stoker lacked the upper body strength to pull herself into the
boat. She's in good physical shape; however, handicaps make it
doubtful that she ever *will* do the push-up. For this reason, we
shall stay in calm water; however, we will need to develop a wet entry
technique and practice it. I'm thinking of some kind of a stirrup
where she could get her leg involved.

Jones

Drag devices
 

!Jones wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:11:25 -0400, in rec.boats.paddle Steve Cramer
wrote:

1. Get some training. It's unclear if you are new kayakers or only a new
tandem team, but you should learn to deal with wind and waves in a safe
location that doesn't require Coasties.
2. Pay better attention to conditions
3. Don't go out as a single boat.

Thank you for the lecture.

Don't mention it. Comes with your Usenet subscription. No extra charge.

1. It was a Coast Guard sopnsored training session held with a
lifeboat standing by.

You might have mentioned that. Were you the designated crash test dummy?

2. The conditions were pretty generic to the area in which we live: 20
knot wind, 4' chop on a 9 second period. No fun, these, but, if you
plan to paddle hereabouts, you'd better be able to deal with that.

Indeed. Are you able to? If not, find some more sheltered areas until
you are.

3. When you end up in the laundry, another kayak isn't much help, IMO.
I had other boats all around me.

Then why did the Coast Guard have to be involved. Oh, right, they were
training and needed the practice. Will you always paddle in CG practice
zones? If not, ....

But, seriously, when you're flipped by a wave, are you *really*
thinking about getting some training?

Of course not, that's why you should be thinking of it NOW. Might have
been nice to think about it beforehand, but that's water under the, um,
kayak.

Can one really learn how to handle a kayak in adverse conditions by
reading some books on the subject?

No.
.... by getting advice from
experts?

No.

We chose that spot and those conditions because we thought
they'd be challenging; however, they would not life threatening.
(Although, about my third time through the rinse cycle, I wasn't so
sure about that.)

Just asking, had you ever tried to do an unassisted tandem re-entry in
4' waves? In flat water?

We were not able to right the boat and remount. Our spotters gave us
time, then came in and fished us out.

On reflection, I think that a drag device might have helped... *that*
was the meat of the question. *I* couldn't orient the nose-high
tandem boat and get back to my stoker. ( And I believe I said that one
should avoid that situation.)

Oci-1 has given an excellent set of advice on how to deal with your
problem. Of course, he was sitting at a keyboard and had time to think
about it. If you had had some previous rescue training, it might have
been an automatic response on your part.

Now, an unsolicited lectu If you don't wish to fight incessant
flame wars, then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures. While
what you say is perfectly valid and nobody in their right mind would
argue otherwise, it comes across as pedantic and patronizing.

I'm sorry if you found my suggestions pedantic ( I am, after all, a
college professor) and patronizing. Here's the point I was trying to
make, and if you spend any time here you'll see it made repeatedly: more
gear does not keep/get you out of trouble. Training leading to a
stronger skills base does.

I *love* to fight flame wars, personally; however, I'm not seeking one
at the moment... I'm *still* sore from my Monday evening pasting in
the chop. I would suggest that no training session in the world
matches a good laundering for impressing one just how powerful the
waves are!!!

If you *love* flame wars, please find another ng. Telling people what
you think about the behavior they voluntarily placed in front of the
world is not flaming, it's what newsgroups do. It's nice to be
impressed. But you don't learn much under those conditions.

Paddle safe.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Drag devices
 

!Jones wrote:
The other issue that presented itself in the middle of it all was that
my stoker lacked the upper body strength to pull herself into the
boat. She's in good physical shape; however, handicaps make it
doubtful that she ever *will* do the push-up. For this reason, we
shall stay in calm water; however, we will need to develop a wet entry
technique and practice it. I'm thinking of some kind of a stirrup
where she could get her leg involved.

Read Shumann & Shriner's book Sea Kayak Rescue. They discuss several
type of re-entry techniques, some involving slings.

Also, I'll speculate that your partner's problem *may* have had to do
with trying to pull herself up onto the boat (think getting out of a
swimming pool) rather than keeping her body flat on the surface and
swimming across the deck.

You could also try putting her in first with the boat on its side and
doing a paddlefloat roll with you pulling down on the other side. Lots
of options. Try 'em and see what works for you.

Steve

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Drag devices
 

On 21-Jun-2006, !Jones wrote:

then refrain from giving out unsolicited lectures.

Longtime readers of this newsgroup know that there are frequent
questions from beginners of the sort "This happened, what should I do
next" and the correct answer is not "Do this next" but "Don't let that
happen". In other words, it's a _lot_ easier to avoid a problem than
to fix it.

Since avoiding problems and reducing risk are preferred to solving
a problem, we tend to address that - especially for a beginner. Your
question sounded one from a beginner, Steve's response was appropriate
for _this_ newsgroup.

As to using a drogue or sea anchor - the problem with waves is that the
tendancy to broach is strong and a sea anchor only works if there is
significant velocity. Given that the drogue may not work effectively and
you have to deal with lines in the water while swimming, I'd say avoid it.

Your body will work as a drogue without risk due to entanglement in lines.
If, as someone suggested, you hang onto the bow and float vertically in
the water, then that should straighten the kayak if a drogue would. However,
as a recent incident showed. you might not be able to hold onto the kayak
if the waves are strong enough.

Since you can't do this and tend to your paddling partner at the same time,
it is essential that you either find a partner that can self rescue or avoid
these conditions.

Two things:
1 - doubles are not as safe as myth says.
2 - gear is not the solution to a kayaking problem.

Mike

Drag devices
 

!Jones wrote:
On 21 Jun 2006 07:41:02 -0700, in rec.boats.paddle "Oci-One Kanubi"
wrote:

Forgive me for not answering your actual question, but (perhaps you
might experiment with this suggestion in a strong wind under
otherwise-controlled conditions):

Actually, it's "bang on" my topic. I get the impression that the drag
device isn't in common usage.

The other issue that presented itself in the middle of it all was that
my stoker lacked the upper body strength to pull herself into the
boat. She's in good physical shape; however, handicaps make it
doubtful that she ever *will* do the push-up. For this reason, we
shall stay in calm water; however, we will need to develop a wet entry
technique and practice it. I'm thinking of some kind of a stirrup
where she could get her leg involved.


Well, again, I'm not a kayaker -- least of all a sea-kayaker -- but
consider trying this in a pool or sheltered harbor (do you live
anywhere near the Solent? Now THAT's some calm water to practice in,
off the beach at Alverstoke, say, or Lee-on-Solent, or Lymington).

Rather than have her try to lift herself vertically out of the water
beside the boat, which will present you with quite a challenge in
holding the boat stable, see if she can re-enter by moving to the
stern, grabbong both chines, and pulling herself forward, so that she
straddles the boat with both legs in the water to enhance stability, as
outriggers or a high-wire walker's pole. Once she pulls herself
forward to the rear cockpit there will be a few seconds -- or a minute
or two -- of instability while she sits up, then swings her legs
forward and into the cockpit (perhaps one leg at a time, discussing
with you which leg she will assay first so that you will know which
direction the boat will try to tip).


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

PS
 

Note inserted text below (in all caps).

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
!Jones wrote:
On 21 Jun 2006 07:41:02 -0700, in rec.boats.paddle "Oci-One Kanubi"
wrote:

Forgive me for not answering your actual question, but (perhaps you
might experiment with this suggestion in a strong wind under
otherwise-controlled conditions):

Actually, it's "bang on" my topic. I get the impression that the drag
device isn't in common usage.

The other issue that presented itself in the middle of it all was that
my stoker lacked the upper body strength to pull herself into the
boat. She's in good physical shape; however, handicaps make it
doubtful that she ever *will* do the push-up. For this reason, we
shall stay in calm water; however, we will need to develop a wet entry
technique and practice it. I'm thinking of some kind of a stirrup
where she could get her leg involved.


Well, again, I'm not a kayaker -- least of all a sea-kayaker -- but
consider trying this in a pool or sheltered harbor (do you live
anywhere near the Solent? Now THAT's some calm water to practice in,
off the beach at Alverstoke, say, or Lee-on-Solent, or Lymington).

Rather than have her try to lift herself vertically out of the water
beside the boat, which will present you with quite a challenge in
holding the boat stable, see if she can re-enter by moving to the
stern, grabbong both chines, and pulling herself forward, so that she
straddles the boat with both legs in the water to enhance stability, as
outriggers or a high-wire walker's pole,
BUT REMAINING PRONE ON THE BACK DECK AS SHE DOES
SO, TO MAXIMIZE THE STABILITY OF THE WHOLE SITUATION
. Once she pulls herself
forward to the rear cockpit there will be a few seconds -- or a minute
or two -- of instability while she sits up, then swings her legs
forward and into the cockpit (perhaps one leg at a time, discussing
with you which leg she will assay first so that you will know which
direction the boat will try to tip).


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Drag devices
 

!Jones wrote in
:

We have a Para-Tech sea anchor that was custom made for our Klepper
double. I contacted Para-Tech some years back, explained what we were
looking for, gave the specs on the Klepper, where we kayak and so forth.
We kayak off all of the Hawaiian islands, Long Island Sound north to
Maine. The Para-Tech sea anchor sits in a small yellow bag to side of
person in front seat of kayak. The bag is about the size of a small
Gatorade bottle. A rope leads from the bag to the bow. To deploy you
simply pull the first few feet of rope out of the bag and drop the bag in
the water. The rest of the rope in the bag comes out as the wind blows
you backwards or sideways. Once the rope goes taunt from the bow to the
bag now in the water, the boat stops moving and the bow is face on to the
wind.

Hawe we used it? Yes. One time in 5 years. Off the Big Island in
Hawaii. Very unusual off-shore wind rapidly went from light breeze to
about 30 knots. As we discovered when we finally made it to the landing,
even the local fishermen on the water were stunned at the rapid and
totally unusual conditions that morning. Two of them had their own boats
capsized and wound up being rescued by the Coast Guard.

Having practiced deploying the sea anchor on a large lake in Connecticut
during windy conditions, deploying it in what we still consider a very
dangerous situation went smoothly. Bow came around, we hunkered down,
and about an hour later when the wind find let up, based on GPS (Garmin
GPSMap 76cs) reading we had been blow seaward about three hundred feet.
Without the sea anchor there would have been no way to prevent us from
being blown seaward a mile or realistically many miles.

Aside from the wind blowing in our faces, the feeling and reality of
being securely anchored to the surface of the sea made cost of the sea
anchor inconsequential. I have read the other posts here regarding
training, etc. You can train all you want but there is no training that
will cover every possible situation that can happen on the sea. Your
seeking further safety information should be responded to rather than
getting responses that have nothing to do with the question. Here's some
quotes which I have collected.

"Evey vessel venturing offshore is a lonely entity, face to face with the
most elemental force on the planet earth." Carleton Mitchell

"The fallacy lies in expecting anything at sea to be as it 'should be'."
Webb Chiles

"The time to tkae measures for a ship's safety is while still able to do
so. Nothing is more dangerous than for a seaman to be grudging in taking
precautions, lest they turn out to have been unnecesary. Safety at sea,
for a thousand years, has depended on exactly the opposite philosophy."
Chester W. Nimitz, Admiral US Navy

--
Big Island Bob