Bayliner Alternatives
 

I'm the type of guy who's better at researching a product than I am at
actually making a decision. I was last here years ago, laughing at the
various debates between Harry and Skipper, since I pretty much believe
in the David Pascoe dogma that a high quality boat is the only kind of
boat you should buy.

But then, like many, I ran into reality. First I thought I'd get a
used boat cheap. But I quickly discovered that the under $5k used boat
market was pretty much a swamp of derelicts uncared for by their
owners, especially here in Pittsburgh, PA, which is not what I would
call a world centre for boating.

If you go up a bit further in price, you find the Ski Nautique brand.
I love the design and construction quality, but they are so specialized
towards skiing that they wouldn't make much of a comfortable, family
oriented runabout I could use to blast around on the river, take
pictures and have guests without the lamentable inhospitality of the
true fishing boat. I asked the Wakeboard crowd about this, and they
suggested Cobalt.

So I visited http://www.cobaltboats.com/ and wow, what a cool company.
But alas, if you go to their cheapest boat, the 200, you get prices
like these:

http://www.cobaltboats.com/model_lin...uipment200.php

So I wound up checking out a new boat dealer that sold Bayliner. I was
prepared to hate Bayliner. I am even on record somewhere deep in
USENET history as agreeing with Harry that Bayliner is not the world's
greatest boat. But at the same time, I am on the river, not an ocean.
On the other hand, I plan to migrate down to Florida at some point and
then maybe I will be on an ocean. So I'd like to have a boat that
could go on the ocean that wouldn't empty my wallet every month.

So I checked out Bayliner's entry level boat and it certainly looked
far better than the old models. The saleslady, a really cool person,
said they were, in fact, better than the old models. It's a pity she
used the argument "They're the most popular boat on the planet! If
they weren't good, people wouldn't buy them?" Try to talk that way to
an Apple computer user who KNOWS everyone buys Windows, and you're not
getting very far :-).

But still, I want to be fair. And lo and behold, even here, I see even
ol' Harry softening his opinion on them. Oh, he growls about the cleat
size, but he seems to have lost a lot of his vim and vigour on the
subject.

I kept on looking, though. There's something notably unappealing about
Bayliner. They don't talk much about quality. The rival dealer sold
Larson, "Better-built boats". So I went to this site:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...h.pl?type=list

and I'll be darned if half the reviews of Larson were unfavorable and
most of the reviews about Bayliner were raves! Reviews like this are
bound to put you off on a boat:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=326
http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=282

Well, in the end, I did find the perfect runabout. A little big and a
bit greedy on fuel, and I'm not sure if you can even buy diesel on the
Monongahela River, which might make refueling a bit interesting. But
still, who could resist this one?

http://powerandmotoryacht.com/boatte...02hinckleyT29/
for great pictures, see
http://www.boats.com/sites/hinckley/...hinckley&pic=0

Well, the perfect boat if I had $335,000-odd to spend on a runabout.
And it's sold already! I do admire the Hinckley service organization,
though. Looks like they sell you the boat, if anything goes wrong,
they fix it, they do the annual varnishing and polishing so your boat
will never look old, and then if you get tired of it and want a bigger
boat, they are there to sell it for you. The next owner will get a
service history down to individidual light bulb replacements (stuff
like Replace PAR 16 12v light bulb .... $28.95). I may not be able to
afford that sort of thing, but I admire it enormously.

Okay, back to reality.

If I have aroud $20k to spend on a nice circa 18-20' runabout, what
really are the best quality choices?

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

Thanks for your thoughts!


D

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Bayliner quality has improved over the last 5-6 years. The hull design
and quality is as good as most mid-range priced production boats. The
accessories and fittings are less, but adequate quality, too. The
company and their parent corporation, Brunswick, have been evolving and
today are without doubt the most advanced boat building corporation
from the manuafturing and supply chain standpoint. They have
incorporated modern manufacturing concepts such as Total Quality and
Lean Manufacturing, which are key elements that have allowed Toyota to
wipe out competitors such as GM or Ford.

Their supply chain effiiciencies combined with the economy of scale
allows them to make the boats cheaper than the competition. From my
own experience as engineer in a large international company with
state-of-the-art manufacturing system, I estimate that Bayliner can
produce equal boats at least 20 to 30% cheaper than smaller, less
efficient companies. Assuming that they transfer only half of the
saving to the end consumer, and equivalent quality Bayliner costs less
than similar boat from a smaller company. In today's world lower cost
does not mean lower quality. Look at the example of Japanese car
makers, and most recently Korean companies such as Hyundai. They offer
cars which are at least as good, if not better than most US
manufacturers, yet are significantly cheaper. The same applies to
Bayliner.

Are Bayliners best boats? Definitely no, you can find much better,
hand-made, expensive one-of-a-kind boats. But a $20 Bayliner will be as
good, if not better as other brand boat in the $20-25 range.



wrote:
I'm the type of guy who's better at researching a product than I am at
actually making a decision. I was last here years ago, laughing at the
various debates between Harry and Skipper, since I pretty much believe
in the David Pascoe dogma that a high quality boat is the only kind of
boat you should buy.

But then, like many, I ran into reality. First I thought I'd get a
used boat cheap. But I quickly discovered that the under $5k used boat
market was pretty much a swamp of derelicts uncared for by their
owners, especially here in Pittsburgh, PA, which is not what I would
call a world centre for boating.

If you go up a bit further in price, you find the Ski Nautique brand.
I love the design and construction quality, but they are so specialized
towards skiing that they wouldn't make much of a comfortable, family
oriented runabout I could use to blast around on the river, take
pictures and have guests without the lamentable inhospitality of the
true fishing boat. I asked the Wakeboard crowd about this, and they
suggested Cobalt.

So I visited http://www.cobaltboats.com/ and wow, what a cool company.
But alas, if you go to their cheapest boat, the 200, you get prices
like these:

http://www.cobaltboats.com/model_lin...uipment200.php

So I wound up checking out a new boat dealer that sold Bayliner. I was
prepared to hate Bayliner. I am even on record somewhere deep in
USENET history as agreeing with Harry that Bayliner is not the world's
greatest boat. But at the same time, I am on the river, not an ocean.
On the other hand, I plan to migrate down to Florida at some point and
then maybe I will be on an ocean. So I'd like to have a boat that
could go on the ocean that wouldn't empty my wallet every month.

So I checked out Bayliner's entry level boat and it certainly looked
far better than the old models. The saleslady, a really cool person,
said they were, in fact, better than the old models. It's a pity she
used the argument "They're the most popular boat on the planet! If
they weren't good, people wouldn't buy them?" Try to talk that way to
an Apple computer user who KNOWS everyone buys Windows, and you're not
getting very far :-).

But still, I want to be fair. And lo and behold, even here, I see even
ol' Harry softening his opinion on them. Oh, he growls about the cleat
size, but he seems to have lost a lot of his vim and vigour on the
subject.

I kept on looking, though. There's something notably unappealing about
Bayliner. They don't talk much about quality. The rival dealer sold
Larson, "Better-built boats". So I went to this site:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...h.pl?type=list

and I'll be darned if half the reviews of Larson were unfavorable and
most of the reviews about Bayliner were raves! Reviews like this are
bound to put you off on a boat:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=326
http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=282

Well, in the end, I did find the perfect runabout. A little big and a
bit greedy on fuel, and I'm not sure if you can even buy diesel on the
Monongahela River, which might make refueling a bit interesting. But
still, who could resist this one?

http://powerandmotoryacht.com/boatte...02hinckleyT29/
for great pictures, see
http://www.boats.com/sites/hinckley/...hinckley&pic=0

Well, the perfect boat if I had $335,000-odd to spend on a runabout.
And it's sold already! I do admire the Hinckley service organization,
though. Looks like they sell you the boat, if anything goes wrong,
they fix it, they do the annual varnishing and polishing so your boat
will never look old, and then if you get tired of it and want a bigger
boat, they are there to sell it for you. The next owner will get a
service history down to individidual light bulb replacements (stuff
like Replace PAR 16 12v light bulb .... $28.95). I may not be able to
afford that sort of thing, but I admire it enormously.

Okay, back to reality.

If I have aroud $20k to spend on a nice circa 18-20' runabout, what
really are the best quality choices?

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

Thanks for your thoughts!


D

Bayliner Alternatives
 

wrote:


What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

$25,000 odd dollars.

Now that the smart ass remark is out of my system, you are unlikely to
actually *need* any of the obviously more refined fit and finish, more
bulletproof layup, or the better systems choices you would gain by
choosing the Cobalt.
Enjoy them? Yes, you would, along with an increased pride of ownership
and better resale value. Based on the usage you describe, the 20-foot
Bayliner will probably prove as safe and capable as the 20-foot Cobalt.
Engine reliability will of course be about the same, assuming identical
power trains.

There is more *value* in the Cobalt. Whether that value is sufficient
to inspire you to reach $25,000 deeper into your pocket is an
individual decision, and there is no universal right or wrong answer. A
gazillion people enjoy boating in a Bayliner, and the company's owner
retention rate at trade-up time is one of the highest in the industry.
(disclosu some wags will dismiss the owner retention rate and claim
that "no competing dealer wants a POS Bayliner on his lot- they have to
trade them in at a Bayliner dealer because nobody else wants one!"
That, is nonsense).

A whole lot of people buy new Mercedes Benz who could very capably sit
in the rush hour traffic during that daily commute to the office in a
Chevrolet. Those folks would get a lot more car with the Benz- but they
probably don't really *need* one- "want" and "afford" become big
factors.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range. All the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's. It has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph, doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta or Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice but you
have to pay for them.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm the type of guy who's better at researching a product than I am at
actually making a decision. I was last here years ago, laughing at the
various debates between Harry and Skipper, since I pretty much believe
in the David Pascoe dogma that a high quality boat is the only kind of
boat you should buy.

But then, like many, I ran into reality. First I thought I'd get a
used boat cheap. But I quickly discovered that the under $5k used boat
market was pretty much a swamp of derelicts uncared for by their
owners, especially here in Pittsburgh, PA, which is not what I would
call a world centre for boating.

If you go up a bit further in price, you find the Ski Nautique brand.
I love the design and construction quality, but they are so specialized
towards skiing that they wouldn't make much of a comfortable, family
oriented runabout I could use to blast around on the river, take
pictures and have guests without the lamentable inhospitality of the
true fishing boat. I asked the Wakeboard crowd about this, and they
suggested Cobalt.

So I visited http://www.cobaltboats.com/ and wow, what a cool company.
But alas, if you go to their cheapest boat, the 200, you get prices
like these:

http://www.cobaltboats.com/model_lin...uipment200.php

So I wound up checking out a new boat dealer that sold Bayliner. I was
prepared to hate Bayliner. I am even on record somewhere deep in
USENET history as agreeing with Harry that Bayliner is not the world's
greatest boat. But at the same time, I am on the river, not an ocean.
On the other hand, I plan to migrate down to Florida at some point and
then maybe I will be on an ocean. So I'd like to have a boat that
could go on the ocean that wouldn't empty my wallet every month.

So I checked out Bayliner's entry level boat and it certainly looked
far better than the old models. The saleslady, a really cool person,
said they were, in fact, better than the old models. It's a pity she
used the argument "They're the most popular boat on the planet! If
they weren't good, people wouldn't buy them?" Try to talk that way to
an Apple computer user who KNOWS everyone buys Windows, and you're not
getting very far :-).

But still, I want to be fair. And lo and behold, even here, I see even
ol' Harry softening his opinion on them. Oh, he growls about the cleat
size, but he seems to have lost a lot of his vim and vigour on the
subject.

I kept on looking, though. There's something notably unappealing about
Bayliner. They don't talk much about quality. The rival dealer sold
Larson, "Better-built boats". So I went to this site:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...h.pl?type=list

and I'll be darned if half the reviews of Larson were unfavorable and
most of the reviews about Bayliner were raves! Reviews like this are
bound to put you off on a boat:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=326
http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=282

Well, in the end, I did find the perfect runabout. A little big and a
bit greedy on fuel, and I'm not sure if you can even buy diesel on the
Monongahela River, which might make refueling a bit interesting. But
still, who could resist this one?

http://powerandmotoryacht.com/boatte...02hinckleyT29/
for great pictures, see

http://www.boats.com/sites/hinckley/...hinckley&pic=0

Well, the perfect boat if I had $335,000-odd to spend on a runabout.
And it's sold already! I do admire the Hinckley service organization,
though. Looks like they sell you the boat, if anything goes wrong,
they fix it, they do the annual varnishing and polishing so your boat
will never look old, and then if you get tired of it and want a bigger
boat, they are there to sell it for you. The next owner will get a
service history down to individidual light bulb replacements (stuff
like Replace PAR 16 12v light bulb .... $28.95). I may not be able to
afford that sort of thing, but I admire it enormously.

Okay, back to reality.

If I have aroud $20k to spend on a nice circa 18-20' runabout, what
really are the best quality choices?

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

Thanks for your thoughts!


D

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Harry Krause wrote:


If by ocean, you mean a mile or so offshore on decent days and you are
familiar with Florida's weather patterns, there's nothing wrong with an
ocean-sized Bayliner of 20 or more feet.

That is how the "average" family boater wants to use the boat. As you
emphasized, Florida's weather pattern can make for drastic and rather
fast changes in the weather. Even if you are only 1 mile off shore, you
really have to keep an eye on the horizon and listen to the NOAA weather
station.

While Florida is notorious for fast changing weather, summer is ripe for
afternoon Thunderstorms with high winds and wind shear. We have had
"Thunderstorms" flip houseboats on our lake.
--
Reggie

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

seeray28(steve) wrote:
Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range. All the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's. It has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph, doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta or Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Don White wrote:
seeray28(steve) wrote:
Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we
looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range. All
the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a
good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's. It
has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS
in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other
brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta or
Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got
to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.
Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to the
elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power windows
and door locks. ;)

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was considering
the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping the boat/car
till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

--
Reggie

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Reginald P. Smithers wrote:
Don White wrote:

seeray28(steve) wrote:

Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we
looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range.
All the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a
good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's.
It has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just
about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS
in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other
brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta
or Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got
to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.

Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to the
elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power windows
and door locks. ;)

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was considering
the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping the boat/car
till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

My 2 month old 2006 Ford Ranger 'Sport' Super Cab has roll up windows
and manual locks. 1995 mini-van...same.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Reginald P. Smithers wrote:
Don White wrote:

seeray28(steve) wrote:

Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we looked
at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range. All
the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a
good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's. It
has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just
about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS in
it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other
brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta or
Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got
to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.

Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to the
elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power windows
and door locks. ;)

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was considering
the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping the boat/car
till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

My 2 month old 2006 Ford Ranger 'Sport' Super Cab has roll up windows and
manual locks. 1995 mini-van...same.


I would agree with Reggie regarding cars but not on boats. Upgrade options
on boats can normally be retrofits and do not significantly add to the
resale *price* of a used boat. They may however make the boat more
attractive to prospective buyers.

BTW Reggie, I never saw a car or boat that was not exposed to the elements.
;-)

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Reginald P. Smithers wrote:
Don White wrote:
seeray28(steve) wrote:
Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we
looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range.
All the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a
good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's.
It has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just
about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS
in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other
brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta
or Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got
to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.
Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat

Don, I meant to say: This is especially important with a boat, since
the helm is normally exposed to the elements, more so than the inside of
a car.

exposed to the
elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power windows
and door locks. ;)

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was considering
the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping the boat/car
till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.



--
Reggie

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Don White wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers wrote:
Don White wrote:

seeray28(steve) wrote:

Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we
looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range.
All the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually
a good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's.
It has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just
about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS
in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k
other brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta
or Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY
got to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.

Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to
the elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power
windows and door locks. ;)

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was
considering the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping
the boat/car till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

My 2 month old 2006 Ford Ranger 'Sport' Super Cab has roll up windows
and manual locks. 1995 mini-van...same.

I was just teasing you, I know they still offer the non power windows
and door locks, I just can't remember the last time I saw a car without
the power option.

Since they offer the power options as a "Package", I think most people
just order it automatically. I try to keep my cars for 10 yrs if they
will hold up mechanically, and I have never had a problem with the power
windows or door locks on any car. The reason I have always sold my cars
is because of a transmission problem that I could not justify the cost
of repair vs. the value of the car.

--
Reggie

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Harry Krause wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

$25,000 odd dollars.

Now that the smart ass remark is out of my system, you are unlikely to
actually *need* any of the obviously more refined fit and finish, more
bulletproof layup, or the better systems choices you would gain by
choosing the Cobalt.
Enjoy them? Yes, you would, along with an increased pride of ownership
and better resale value. Based on the usage you describe, the 20-foot
Bayliner will probably prove as safe and capable as the 20-foot Cobalt.
Engine reliability will of course be about the same, assuming identical
power trains.


That latter statement would only be true if Bayliner spent as much time
and money installing the I/O drive and its accessories and wiring as
Cobalt, which is highly unlikely.


I'd have to disagree. Unless an installation were so sloppy as to be
actually defective, (and that isn't going to be the case), one
Mercruiser will run about as well as the next. Now it's absolutely true
that, for example, the engine mounts may be more precisely located (by
1000th of an inch or so) and more neatly integrated to the stringers on
a more expensive boat, but that isn't going to improve mechanical
reliablity over an installation that simply meets basic installation
specs without exceeding them. The critical engine wiring is done at the
engine factory, with a few connections to the boat and systems
remaining for the manufacturer. A properly formed and insulated basic
connection (like you would typically find on a Bayliner) will prove
just as reliable as a connection that is more "artfully" done.


Cobalt does include a 5-year powertrain warranty as a standard item,
and while that same warranty is undoubtedly available on a Bayliner
(through an optional, factory sponsored extension), I believe the
standard powertrain warranty on a new Bayliner is 2 years. (It recently
went up, and I can't remember without pulling my notes if it went up
from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 3- so shoot me if it's 3 and I said 2). The
difference has less to do with installation techniques than with the
fact that Cobalt has already built the extended warranty into its
pricing.

Comparing hull warranties is a bit tricky as well. Cobalt offers a
10-year hull warranty, while Bayliner offers a "limited, lifetime"
warranty on the hull.......((does that mean that when the hull "dies"
so does the warranty? probably not)).......as well as a more specific
and transferable 5-year warranty on the hull and deck. A "lifetime" can
be longer than 10 years, but 10 years is twice as long as 5 years, so
it gets a little bit fuzzy comparing apples and oranges in the hull and
deck department.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

[Harry says a 20' Bayliner would be OK to go offshore if you keep your
eye on the weather].

There is a pretty sizable difference in price, so I'd like to know what
you think of the relative ocean-based performance of the 18, 19 and 20'
Bayliners. (The 18 is $13.5k, 19 is $21k and 20 is $24k).

I suspect I would mainly be staying in the ICW instead of going
offshore, but I remember Lake Worth gets pretty choppy, albiet not
nearly as much as the ocean.

Many thanks!

D

Bayliner Alternatives
 

I would definitely check out the Crownline.


Okay, back to reality.

If I have aroud $20k to spend on a nice circa 18-20' runabout, what
really are the best quality choices?

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

Thanks for your thoughts!


D

Bayliner Alternatives
 

On 1 Jun 2006 08:28:50 -0700, "David H Dennis"
wrote:

I suspect I would mainly be staying in the ICW instead of going
offshore, but I remember Lake Worth gets pretty choppy, albiet not
nearly as much as the ocean.

That's a good assumption. I would personally not go in the ocean with
anything much under 23 or 24 feet except in the calmest and most
stable weather conditions. Even then there are many 24 and 25 footers
that get in trouble and capsize every year.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:42:36 GMT, Don White wrote:

Reginald P. Smithers wrote:
Don White wrote:

Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to the
elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power windows
and door locks. ;)

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was considering
the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping the boat/car
till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

My 2 month old 2006 Ford Ranger 'Sport' Super Cab has roll up windows
and manual locks. 1995 mini-van...same.

Wow, I didn't know it was possible to get a new vehicle without the 'power'
options. I see the power stuff is a $405 option for your truck, but for
many trucks and cars the power windows, etc., are standard equipment. The
F150 doesn't show power windows as an option so I assume they're standard
equipment, as is their locking system.

--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

Bayliner Alternatives
 

ega wrote:
: I would definitely check out the Crownline.

Agreed.

Also: http://www.bluewater-boats.com/boats.html

Bayliner Alternatives
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:42:36 GMT, Don White
wrote:

Reginald P. Smithers wrote:
Don White wrote:

Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to the
elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power windows
and door locks. ;)

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was considering
the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping the boat/car
till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

My 2 month old 2006 Ford Ranger 'Sport' Super Cab has roll up windows
and manual locks. 1995 mini-van...same.

Wow, I didn't know it was possible to get a new vehicle without the
'power'
options. I see the power stuff is a $405 option for your truck, but for
many trucks and cars the power windows, etc., are standard equipment. The
F150 doesn't show power windows as an option so I assume they're standard
equipment, as is their locking system.

--
'Til next time,

John H



My hunch is that power windows and locks are cheaper to build and install
than their mechanical counterparts.

RCE

Bayliner Alternatives
 

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:50:47 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

That's the problem with you monster-size boaters...no guts, no glory!

I have a 24 ft I/O also, never have gotten it into trouble but it's
easy to spot the limits when you're on open water. I had plenty of
(mis) adventures with small boats when I was growing up on Lake
Ontario as a kid, lucky to be here.

After you've seen a few pictures of capsized Grady White 24s and the
like, you realize that 24/25 is none too big on some days. When we
were in the Abacos last month there were 3 or 4 straight days of 25 to
30 kt north easterlies coming in from open ocean. Surf in the inlets
was running close to 20 ft. **Nobody** was going outside, not even
the 55 ft Hatts.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Don White wrote:

seeray28(steve) wrote:

Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we
looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range. All
the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a
good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's. It
has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS
in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other
brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta or
Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got
to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.

Try keyless entry and auto up/down windows and you will never go back.
I'm hooked on the rain sensing wipers these days.

Dan

Bayliner Alternatives
 

Don White wrote:

Reginald P. Smithers wrote:

Don White wrote:

seeray28(steve) wrote:

Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we
looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range.
All the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually
a good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's.
It has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just
about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS
in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k
other brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta
or Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY
got to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.


Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to
the elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power
windows and door locks. ;)

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was
considering the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping
the boat/car till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

My 2 month old 2006 Ford Ranger 'Sport' Super Cab has roll up windows
and manual locks. 1995 mini-van...same.


I have four F150's - all with manual windows and locks. They all have
the "work truck" package. No carpet, vinyl seats, etc. Can't beat them
for $15K.

Dan

Bayliner Alternatives
 

I'm also from the Burgh' send me an e-mail.


wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm the type of guy who's better at researching a product than I am at
actually making a decision. I was last here years ago, laughing at the
various debates between Harry and Skipper, since I pretty much believe
in the David Pascoe dogma that a high quality boat is the only kind of
boat you should buy.

But then, like many, I ran into reality. First I thought I'd get a
used boat cheap. But I quickly discovered that the under $5k used boat
market was pretty much a swamp of derelicts uncared for by their
owners, especially here in Pittsburgh, PA, which is not what I would
call a world centre for boating.

If you go up a bit further in price, you find the Ski Nautique brand.
I love the design and construction quality, but they are so specialized
towards skiing that they wouldn't make much of a comfortable, family
oriented runabout I could use to blast around on the river, take
pictures and have guests without the lamentable inhospitality of the
true fishing boat. I asked the Wakeboard crowd about this, and they
suggested Cobalt.

So I visited http://www.cobaltboats.com/ and wow, what a cool company.
But alas, if you go to their cheapest boat, the 200, you get prices
like these:

http://www.cobaltboats.com/model_lin...uipment200.php

So I wound up checking out a new boat dealer that sold Bayliner. I was
prepared to hate Bayliner. I am even on record somewhere deep in
USENET history as agreeing with Harry that Bayliner is not the world's
greatest boat. But at the same time, I am on the river, not an ocean.
On the other hand, I plan to migrate down to Florida at some point and
then maybe I will be on an ocean. So I'd like to have a boat that
could go on the ocean that wouldn't empty my wallet every month.

So I checked out Bayliner's entry level boat and it certainly looked
far better than the old models. The saleslady, a really cool person,
said they were, in fact, better than the old models. It's a pity she
used the argument "They're the most popular boat on the planet! If
they weren't good, people wouldn't buy them?" Try to talk that way to
an Apple computer user who KNOWS everyone buys Windows, and you're not
getting very far :-).

But still, I want to be fair. And lo and behold, even here, I see even
ol' Harry softening his opinion on them. Oh, he growls about the cleat
size, but he seems to have lost a lot of his vim and vigour on the
subject.

I kept on looking, though. There's something notably unappealing about
Bayliner. They don't talk much about quality. The rival dealer sold
Larson, "Better-built boats". So I went to this site:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...h.pl?type=list

and I'll be darned if half the reviews of Larson were unfavorable and
most of the reviews about Bayliner were raves! Reviews like this are
bound to put you off on a boat:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=326
http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=282

Well, in the end, I did find the perfect runabout. A little big and a
bit greedy on fuel, and I'm not sure if you can even buy diesel on the
Monongahela River, which might make refueling a bit interesting. But
still, who could resist this one?

http://powerandmotoryacht.com/boatte...02hinckleyT29/
for great pictures, see
http://www.boats.com/sites/hinckley/...hinckley&pic=0

Well, the perfect boat if I had $335,000-odd to spend on a runabout.
And it's sold already! I do admire the Hinckley service organization,
though. Looks like they sell you the boat, if anything goes wrong,
they fix it, they do the annual varnishing and polishing so your boat
will never look old, and then if you get tired of it and want a bigger
boat, they are there to sell it for you. The next owner will get a
service history down to individidual light bulb replacements (stuff
like Replace PAR 16 12v light bulb .... $28.95). I may not be able to
afford that sort of thing, but I admire it enormously.

Okay, back to reality.

If I have aroud $20k to spend on a nice circa 18-20' runabout, what
really are the best quality choices?

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

Thanks for your thoughts!


D

Bayliner Alternatives
 

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:03:52 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Heck, that's 22' Bayliner weather, facing those sudden onset Tostitos.

Three tostitos and a margarita to go, doesn't get any better than that
in Derby. Wonder if that crazy old coot is still lurking.

Bayliner Alternatives
 

I too am from Pittsburgh (Moon Township, out by the airport). I bought
a 1995 Sea Pro Citation 19' Cuddy last year out of Cleveland. It is
more than enough for the rivers, but I don't ever intend to go ocean.
It has a 4 banger with an Alpha 1 outdrive, which is powerful enough
for me but a 6 cyclinder wouldn't hurt at all. It is somewhat basic,
but very clean and well maintained. I bought it with trailer for
$4,200. Used it all last summer and a few times this year. All I have
put into it is oil, plugs, self-winterizing, a new stereo and some
brake work on the trailer. Last summer I did a two day trip down the
Ohio with 4 people with no problem (do a google search and see my
story about waking up in the middle of the night while moored close to
shore with a barge cruising past about 6 feet away - about sh*t
myself). I guess that the point is that reasonable quality can be had
for a reasonable budget if you take some time and effort in the
search. Personally, If I had it to do over I would look for about an
18' open bow runabout instead of the Cuddy cabin. I thought that the
cabin would be good for my young grandsons, but I think they would
enjoy the open bow more and it would be easier to launch and
re-trailer. An open bow runabout would clearly be too light for ocean
usage though in my opinion.

Dave Hall


On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 21:55:29 -0400, "Lost In Space/Woodchuck"
wrote:

I'm also from the Burgh' send me an e-mail.


wrote in message
roups.com...
I'm the type of guy who's better at researching a product than I am at
actually making a decision. I was last here years ago, laughing at the
various debates between Harry and Skipper, since I pretty much believe
in the David Pascoe dogma that a high quality boat is the only kind of
boat you should buy.

But then, like many, I ran into reality. First I thought I'd get a
used boat cheap. But I quickly discovered that the under $5k used boat
market was pretty much a swamp of derelicts uncared for by their
owners, especially here in Pittsburgh, PA, which is not what I would
call a world centre for boating.

If you go up a bit further in price, you find the Ski Nautique brand.
I love the design and construction quality, but they are so specialized
towards skiing that they wouldn't make much of a comfortable, family
oriented runabout I could use to blast around on the river, take
pictures and have guests without the lamentable inhospitality of the
true fishing boat. I asked the Wakeboard crowd about this, and they
suggested Cobalt.

So I visited http://www.cobaltboats.com/ and wow, what a cool company.
But alas, if you go to their cheapest boat, the 200, you get prices
like these:

http://www.cobaltboats.com/model_lin...uipment200.php

So I wound up checking out a new boat dealer that sold Bayliner. I was
prepared to hate Bayliner. I am even on record somewhere deep in
USENET history as agreeing with Harry that Bayliner is not the world's
greatest boat. But at the same time, I am on the river, not an ocean.
On the other hand, I plan to migrate down to Florida at some point and
then maybe I will be on an ocean. So I'd like to have a boat that
could go on the ocean that wouldn't empty my wallet every month.

So I checked out Bayliner's entry level boat and it certainly looked
far better than the old models. The saleslady, a really cool person,
said they were, in fact, better than the old models. It's a pity she
used the argument "They're the most popular boat on the planet! If
they weren't good, people wouldn't buy them?" Try to talk that way to
an Apple computer user who KNOWS everyone buys Windows, and you're not
getting very far :-).

But still, I want to be fair. And lo and behold, even here, I see even
ol' Harry softening his opinion on them. Oh, he growls about the cleat
size, but he seems to have lost a lot of his vim and vigour on the
subject.

I kept on looking, though. There's something notably unappealing about
Bayliner. They don't talk much about quality. The rival dealer sold
Larson, "Better-built boats". So I went to this site:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...h.pl?type=list

and I'll be darned if half the reviews of Larson were unfavorable and
most of the reviews about Bayliner were raves! Reviews like this are
bound to put you off on a boat:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=326
http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=282

Well, in the end, I did find the perfect runabout. A little big and a
bit greedy on fuel, and I'm not sure if you can even buy diesel on the
Monongahela River, which might make refueling a bit interesting. But
still, who could resist this one?

http://powerandmotoryacht.com/boatte...02hinckleyT29/
for great pictures, see
http://www.boats.com/sites/hinckley/...hinckley&pic=0

Well, the perfect boat if I had $335,000-odd to spend on a runabout.
And it's sold already! I do admire the Hinckley service organization,
though. Looks like they sell you the boat, if anything goes wrong,
they fix it, they do the annual varnishing and polishing so your boat
will never look old, and then if you get tired of it and want a bigger
boat, they are there to sell it for you. The next owner will get a
service history down to individidual light bulb replacements (stuff
like Replace PAR 16 12v light bulb .... $28.95). I may not be able to
afford that sort of thing, but I admire it enormously.

Okay, back to reality.

If I have aroud $20k to spend on a nice circa 18-20' runabout, what
really are the best quality choices?

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

Thanks for your thoughts!


D