"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...



The real problem is one of religion, Bryan. In this great country, cars
occupy almost mythical status in the mind of the consumer.

And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's part of the American
culture.

This is the alternative:

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2052.html


RCE

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...



The real problem is one of religion, Bryan. In this great country, cars
occupy almost mythical status in the mind of the consumer.

And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's part of the American
culture.

You've just proven my point. "Someone else can deal with the problem. I'm
too busy or stupid".

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...



The real problem is one of religion, Bryan. In this great country, cars
occupy almost mythical status in the mind of the consumer.

And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's part of the American
culture.

You've just proven my point. "Someone else can deal with the problem. I'm
too busy or stupid".


If I truly believed that a 40 mpg hybrid in every garage would solve the
problem, I'd listen.
But, I am of the belief that they won't. They are a nothing but an
admirable but symbolic gesture in the bigger scheme of things, IMOH. I
respect those that feel good about themselves owning and driving one, but to
think they are making a significant difference is being blind-sighted.

You know, everytime something that our culture traditionally enjoys is found
to be bad for the environment or is wasteful or is deemed not appropriate by
some, the answer is to ban them.

Why not investigate ways that they can continue to be enjoyed by those that
do while addressing the offending problems?

RCE

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...



The real problem is one of religion, Bryan. In this great country, cars
occupy almost mythical status in the mind of the consumer.

And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's part of the American
culture.

You've just proven my point. "Someone else can deal with the problem.
I'm too busy or stupid".


If I truly believed that a 40 mpg hybrid in every garage would solve the
problem, I'd listen.
But, I am of the belief that they won't. They are a nothing but an
admirable but symbolic gesture in the bigger scheme of things, IMOH. I
respect those that feel good about themselves owning and driving one, but
to think they are making a significant difference is being blind-sighted.

You know, everytime something that our culture traditionally enjoys is
found to be bad for the environment or is wasteful or is deemed not
appropriate by some, the answer is to ban them.

Why not investigate ways that they can continue to be enjoyed by those
that do while addressing the offending problems?

RCE


Here's a radical idea: How about a president who makes it his hobby to tell
people he trusts them to make changes? Our grandparents made sacrifices
during WWII. There were no Victory Garden police walking around checking
back yards.

As far as the 40 mpg hybrids you keep mentioning, you need to stop that.
According to two people I know who own them, Escalades get 12-14 mpg on a
good day. A Camry or an Impala get numbers in the high 20s - low 30s. I
wasn't a math whiz in high school, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I
*think* that's about twice the gas mileage of an Escalade.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


As far as the 40 mpg hybrids you keep mentioning, you need to stop that.
According to two people I know who own them, Escalades get 12-14 mpg on a
good day. A Camry or an Impala get numbers in the high 20s - low 30s. I
wasn't a math whiz in high school, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but
I *think* that's about twice the gas mileage of an Escalade.




A 40 mpg hybrid, a Camry or an Impala are not suitable to tow a 5000 lb boat
to the launch site.
A F-350 diesel pickup that gets 16-18 mpg is, among many other uses.

RCE

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


As far as the 40 mpg hybrids you keep mentioning, you need to stop that.
According to two people I know who own them, Escalades get 12-14 mpg on a
good day. A Camry or an Impala get numbers in the high 20s - low 30s. I
wasn't a math whiz in high school, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but
I *think* that's about twice the gas mileage of an Escalade.




A 40 mpg hybrid, a Camry or an Impala are not suitable to tow a 5000 lb
boat to the launch site.
A F-350 diesel pickup that gets 16-18 mpg is, among many other uses.

RCE



I never suggested that someone who needs to tow should own anything but a
vehicle capable of doing it.

Maybe we should check here and see what we both believe, based on our own
observations. I'll use the word "truck" here to mean actual trucks, SUVs,
Humjobs, etc. Now: For every 100 trucks you see, what percentage do you
think actually tow anything, or, for that matter, to do ANYTHING that only a
truck can do? To assist with the answer, think about two things. First,
think about how trucks are sold in commercials - how they portray the
customers, and the activities shown. Second, think back to the 1960s -
1970s. Do you have any memory of how many trucks you'd see in parking lots,
compared to what you see now? I'm not talking about the parking lot of a
hunting lodge - I'm talking about places which represent a more average
selection of drivers.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


As far as the 40 mpg hybrids you keep mentioning, you need to stop that.
According to two people I know who own them, Escalades get 12-14 mpg on
a good day. A Camry or an Impala get numbers in the high 20s - low 30s.
I wasn't a math whiz in high school, so please correct me if I'm wrong,
but I *think* that's about twice the gas mileage of an Escalade.




A 40 mpg hybrid, a Camry or an Impala are not suitable to tow a 5000 lb
boat to the launch site.
A F-350 diesel pickup that gets 16-18 mpg is, among many other uses.

RCE



I never suggested that someone who needs to tow should own anything but a
vehicle capable of doing it.

Maybe we should check here and see what we both believe, based on our own
observations. I'll use the word "truck" here to mean actual trucks, SUVs,
Humjobs, etc. Now: For every 100 trucks you see, what percentage do you
think actually tow anything, or, for that matter, to do ANYTHING that only
a truck can do? To assist with the answer, think about two things. First,
think about how trucks are sold in commercials - how they portray the
customers, and the activities shown. Second, think back to the 1960s -
1970s. Do you have any memory of how many trucks you'd see in parking
lots, compared to what you see now? I'm not talking about the parking lot
of a hunting lodge - I'm talking about places which represent a more
average selection of drivers.


Few trucks, but lots of big cars with huge, sweeping fins.
That's what consumers liked .... that's what they got.

I understand your position and the points you are making, Doug. I just
don't think you are going to change a nation's 100 year old mindset
overnight or anytime soon for that matter. You are correct in everything
you say, if you subscribe to that type of thinking. Most don't. Nobody is
going to give up suburbia and move back to the cities anytime soon.
Incentives have been forced down our throats to no avail .... HOV lanes that
are 10% utilized, gas guzzler taxes, even high fuel prices. Americans want
their big cars and trucks, whatever the cost.

RCE

I never suggested that someone who needs to tow should own anything but a
vehicle capable of doing it.

Maybe we should check here and see what we both believe, based on our own
observations. I'll use the word "truck" here to mean actual trucks, SUVs,
Humjobs, etc. Now: For every 100 trucks you see, what percentage do you
think actually tow anything, or, for that matter, to do ANYTHING that only
a truck can do? To assist with the answer, think about two things. First,
think about how trucks are sold in commercials - how they portray the
customers, and the activities shown. Second, think back to the 1960s -
1970s. Do you have any memory of how many trucks you'd see in parking
lots, compared to what you see now? I'm not talking about the parking lot
of a hunting lodge - I'm talking about places which represent a more
average selection of drivers.


All you are talking about Doug, is consumer preferences. People buy what
they want to own, depending on their preferences. The best way to change
what they buy is to change their preferences. If you are expecting
consumers to make those changes on their own, without a big-time motivator,
dream on. The is no more effective way to change consumer preferences
toward automobiles than with the price of gas. The process is underway.
Expect to see many less "trucks" in the supermarket parking lot in five
years. Seriously. This method of changing preferences is far more natural
and will be far more effective than any governmental mandated changes, and
will happen much more quickly than waiting for it to happen due to a rising
social consciousness.

The bonus of higher gas prices besides changing what people buy, is that it
makes the economic viability of, and therefore the research into alternative
energy technology more of a reality.