Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RG" wrote in message
. ..

The thing is, I'm not suggesting government mandated anything. What I
*am* suggesting is that the government might be able to lose its
unwillingness to offend the auto industry, and present the public with
information would help them change their preferences. Why not? It's no
different than the advertising which makes people buy things, right?
People don't just buy based on their own preferences. They also do so
because humans are "clubby" - they want to be members of a group, no
matter how stupid the group may be. Sometimes they choose the wrong
group, sometimes not. But, effect one customer, and he/she may effect
others. Actually, that's a virtual certainty.

Wanting to belong is nothing more than a facet of personal preference.
The government can disseminate all the information it wants to, but it is
unlikely that it is telling anything to anyone that they don't already
know. Not terribly effective.

A good parallel here is the Surgeon's General warning on every pack of
cigarettes. Is there an American alive today that doesn't already know
the health risks of smoking? And yet it continues. But in reduced
numbers. However, I think the reduced numbers have much more to do with
the financial cost of a pack of cigs, versus any governmental educational
program. If you want to get an American's attention, speak to him through
his wallet.


Cool. Now I'll get Stalin-esque. Slap an enormous, annual tax on trucks,
unless an owner can show that he actually has a purpose for it, other than
"I just wanted a Dodge with a hemi so I could hang chrome accessories on
it". No trailer registered to the same owner, meaning he tows nothing? He
gets taxed. Not in a profession which actually requires a truck, like
carpenters & landscapers? He gets taxed. If a doctor decides to become a
plumber, there are ways of giving him back his surcharge in future years. No
more buying a huge truck just because every 4 years, you need to bring home
a bale of peat moss.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

I'm paying very close attention, and I see the process at work. However,
this will not completely change those who don't understand the difference
between having the right to buy anything they want, and the concept of
whether their decisions are good ones for the country as a whole.

Your faith and hope is misplaced, grasshopper. If you expect the collective
Joe Lunchbucket to change their buying habits based upon a rising social
consciousness, be prepared to die old still waiting. Please secure at least
one of your feet to the ground. LBJ once said that if you want to get a
hound dog's attention, you grab him by his ears. If you want to get a
modern American's attention, go for their wallet.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
news:bYSdnaAI0cIVQtHZnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@comcast. com...


Come on Doug, do you want to effect a change or not? You have to
lead by setting an example.





Go play stupid with someone else. Maybe your stapler is interested.


Personal attacks and insults only show you have nothing left to argue
with.

Now I could call you a bleeding heart hypocrite who wants everyone else
but himself to change...........but I won't. ;-)


What makes you think I haven't?


So did you sell your boat to lead by example?

BTW: What do you drive? What does your wife drive?


I drive a 6-cylinder Totota pickup, about 30 miles per week. My ex drives a
Subaru 4-cylinder.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RG" wrote in message
...



I'm paying very close attention, and I see the process at work. However,
this will not completely change those who don't understand the difference
between having the right to buy anything they want, and the concept of
whether their decisions are good ones for the country as a whole.

Your faith and hope is misplaced, grasshopper. If you expect the
collective Joe Lunchbucket to change their buying habits based upon a
rising social consciousness, be prepared to die old still waiting. Please
secure at least one of your feet to the ground. LBJ once said that if you
want to get a hound dog's attention, you grab him by his ears. If you
want to get a modern American's attention, go for their wallet.


Unfortunately, you're right.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Cool. Now I'll get Stalin-esque. Slap an enormous, annual tax on trucks,
unless an owner can show that he actually has a purpose for it, other than
"I just wanted a Dodge with a hemi so I could hang chrome accessories on
it". No trailer registered to the same owner, meaning he tows nothing? He
gets taxed. Not in a profession which actually requires a truck, like
carpenters & landscapers? He gets taxed. If a doctor decides to become a
plumber, there are ways of giving him back his surcharge in future years.
No more buying a huge truck just because every 4 years, you need to bring
home a bale of peat moss.


Y'all ain't gittin my truck, even if'in i hafta learn how to load the
bullits in my shotgun and carry it ona rack in the rear window!

RCE

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
news:bYSdnaAI0cIVQtHZnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@comcast .com...


Come on Doug, do you want to effect a change or not? You have to
lead by setting an example.





Go play stupid with someone else. Maybe your stapler is interested.


Personal attacks and insults only show you have nothing left to argue
with.

Now I could call you a bleeding heart hypocrite who wants everyone else
but himself to change...........but I won't. ;-)


What makes you think I haven't?


So did you sell your boat to lead by example?

BTW: What do you drive? What does your wife drive?


I drive a 6-cylinder Totota pickup, about 30 miles per week. My ex drives
a Subaru 4-cylinder.


Looks like that Toyota is a real gas guzzler Doug.

http://trucks.about.com/od/truckbuyi...truck_fuel.htm

So did you sell your boat?

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RCE" wrote in message
...



Y'all ain't gittin my truck, even if'in i hafta learn how to load the
bullits in my shotgun and carry it ona rack in the rear window!

RCE



That is, of course, unless you make me an offer I can't refuse.

RCE

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

Cool. Now I'll get Stalin-esque. Slap an enormous, annual tax on trucks,
unless an owner can show that he actually has a purpose for it, other than
"I just wanted a Dodge with a hemi so I could hang chrome accessories on
it". No trailer registered to the same owner, meaning he tows nothing? He
gets taxed. Not in a profession which actually requires a truck, like
carpenters & landscapers? He gets taxed. If a doctor decides to become a
plumber, there are ways of giving him back his surcharge in future years.
No more buying a huge truck just because every 4 years, you need to bring
home a bale of peat moss.

Get it still, you don't. Trying to accomplish this change through
governmental taxation will only result in animosity and non-compliance. Not
to mention the fact that you'd never get Congress to agree on an approach.
Accomplishing it through a high cost of ownership due to high fuel bills and
wicked depreciation will happen with Congress doing what it does
best...nothing. The market always works...eventually. Trust the force,
Luke.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Cool. Now I'll get Stalin-esque. Slap an enormous, annual tax on trucks,
unless an owner can show that he actually has a purpose for it, other
than "I just wanted a Dodge with a hemi so I could hang chrome
accessories on it". No trailer registered to the same owner, meaning he
tows nothing? He gets taxed. Not in a profession which actually requires
a truck, like carpenters & landscapers? He gets taxed. If a doctor
decides to become a plumber, there are ways of giving him back his
surcharge in future years. No more buying a huge truck just because every
4 years, you need to bring home a bale of peat moss.


Y'all ain't gittin my truck, even if'in i hafta learn how to load the
bullits in my shotgun and carry it ona rack in the rear window!

RCE


And there we have it! Joe 2-pack has spoken. (They usually can't count to 6)

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
news:bYSdnaAI0cIVQtHZnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@comcas t.com...


Come on Doug, do you want to effect a change or not? You have to
lead by setting an example.





Go play stupid with someone else. Maybe your stapler is interested.


Personal attacks and insults only show you have nothing left to argue
with.

Now I could call you a bleeding heart hypocrite who wants everyone
else but himself to change...........but I won't. ;-)


What makes you think I haven't?


So did you sell your boat to lead by example?

BTW: What do you drive? What does your wife drive?


I drive a 6-cylinder Totota pickup, about 30 miles per week. My ex drives
a Subaru 4-cylinder.


Looks like that Toyota is a real gas guzzler Doug.

http://trucks.about.com/od/truckbuyi...truck_fuel.htm

Show me another good choice for towing a small boat. Has to be rear wheel
drive.


So did you sell your boat?


No, stupid. My boat uses 20 gallons of fuel in an average year, assuming
it's used every weekend between mid-May and late October, with some weekdays
thrown in.

Oh....and when I say "stupid", it's not a personal attack. It's a fact.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Cool. Now I'll get Stalin-esque. Slap an enormous, annual tax on trucks,
unless an owner can show that he actually has a purpose for it, other
than "I just wanted a Dodge with a hemi so I could hang chrome
accessories on it". No trailer registered to the same owner, meaning he
tows nothing? He gets taxed. Not in a profession which actually requires
a truck, like carpenters & landscapers? He gets taxed. If a doctor
decides to become a plumber, there are ways of giving him back his
surcharge in future years. No more buying a huge truck just because
every 4 years, you need to bring home a bale of peat moss.


Y'all ain't gittin my truck, even if'in i hafta learn how to load the
bullits in my shotgun and carry it ona rack in the rear window!

RCE


And there we have it! Joe 2-pack has spoken. (They usually can't count to
6)


Doug, I hate to burst your bubble, but there are far more Joe 2-packs in
this world than you obviously realize.

RCE

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Cool. Now I'll get Stalin-esque. Slap an enormous, annual tax on
trucks, unless an owner can show that he actually has a purpose for it,
other than "I just wanted a Dodge with a hemi so I could hang chrome
accessories on it". No trailer registered to the same owner, meaning he
tows nothing? He gets taxed. Not in a profession which actually
requires a truck, like carpenters & landscapers? He gets taxed. If a
doctor decides to become a plumber, there are ways of giving him back
his surcharge in future years. No more buying a huge truck just because
every 4 years, you need to bring home a bale of peat moss.


Y'all ain't gittin my truck, even if'in i hafta learn how to load the
bullits in my shotgun and carry it ona rack in the rear window!

RCE


And there we have it! Joe 2-pack has spoken. (They usually can't count to
6)


Doug, I hate to burst your bubble, but there are far more Joe 2-packs in
this world than you obviously realize.

RCE


At least 54% that we've already quantified here in this country.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
news:bYSdnaAI0cIVQtHZnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@comca st.com...


Come on Doug, do you want to effect a change or not? You have to
lead by setting an example.





Go play stupid with someone else. Maybe your stapler is interested.


Personal attacks and insults only show you have nothing left to argue
with.

Now I could call you a bleeding heart hypocrite who wants everyone
else but himself to change...........but I won't. ;-)


What makes you think I haven't?


So did you sell your boat to lead by example?

BTW: What do you drive? What does your wife drive?


I drive a 6-cylinder Totota pickup, about 30 miles per week. My ex
drives a Subaru 4-cylinder.


Looks like that Toyota is a real gas guzzler Doug.

http://trucks.about.com/od/truckbuyi...truck_fuel.htm

Show me another good choice for towing a small boat. Has to be rear wheel
drive.

Sell your boat and you won't need that gas guzzler.

You are just another "do as I say and not as I do" preacher.




So did you sell your boat?


No, stupid.

Like a fox as can be seen by this discussion with you. Have a good one
Doug.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Cool. Now I'll get Stalin-esque. Slap an enormous, annual tax on
trucks, unless an owner can show that he actually has a purpose for it,
other than "I just wanted a Dodge with a hemi so I could hang chrome
accessories on it". No trailer registered to the same owner, meaning he
tows nothing? He gets taxed. Not in a profession which actually
requires a truck, like carpenters & landscapers? He gets taxed. If a
doctor decides to become a plumber, there are ways of giving him back
his surcharge in future years. No more buying a huge truck just because
every 4 years, you need to bring home a bale of peat moss.


Y'all ain't gittin my truck, even if'in i hafta learn how to load the
bullits in my shotgun and carry it ona rack in the rear window!

RCE


And there we have it! Joe 2-pack has spoken. (They usually can't count to
6)


Doug, I hate to burst your bubble, but there are far more Joe 2-packs in
this world than you obviously realize.

RCE


And it looks like Doug is one of them based on what *he* drives. ;-)

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...



No, stupid. My boat uses 20 gallons of fuel in an average year, assuming
it's used every weekend between mid-May and late October, with some
weekdays thrown in.


Not to take this to a level of absurdity, but .... are you sure that's all
the oil based product that it uses?

Do you have it hauled?
Do you keep it in a slip? (my guess is mooring .... that's better)
Do you bottom paint?
Do you clean it?
Do you lubricate it?

All told, is the total use of oil really necessary for something that is
purely for pleasure?

Tsk, tsk.

RCE

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

RCE wrote:

Yes, common sense. If hybrids and being politically correct floats your
boat, do so without preaching.
If an Escalade floats your boat, do so, responsibly. The same applies for
everything in between.

RCE



Yes exactly. Funny you should use the phrase "float your boat". My
boat wouldn't get very far from driveway without the help of our Ford
Explorer. The KIA Rio that I run to work and back everyday sure don't
cut it in the trailering department. I realize that some people cannot
afford two vehicles. If we had to give up one, despite gas prices,
despite the "environment", it would probably be the Rio. The SUV is
just too useful.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RG" wrote in message
. ..

Cool. Now I'll get Stalin-esque. Slap an enormous, annual tax on trucks,
unless an owner can show that he actually has a purpose for it, other
than "I just wanted a Dodge with a hemi so I could hang chrome
accessories on it". No trailer registered to the same owner, meaning he
tows nothing? He gets taxed. Not in a profession which actually requires
a truck, like carpenters & landscapers? He gets taxed. If a doctor
decides to become a plumber, there are ways of giving him back his
surcharge in future years. No more buying a huge truck just because every
4 years, you need to bring home a bale of peat moss.

Get it still, you don't. Trying to accomplish this change through
governmental taxation will only result in animosity and non-compliance.
Not to mention the fact that you'd never get Congress to agree on an
approach. Accomplishing it through a high cost of ownership due to high
fuel bills and wicked depreciation will happen with Congress doing what it
does best...nothing. The market always works...eventually. Trust the
force, Luke.



What do you do about the terminally stupid who can't understand cause and
effect?

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"RG" wrote in message
. ..

Cool. Now I'll get Stalin-esque. Slap an enormous, annual tax on trucks,
unless an owner can show that he actually has a purpose for it, other
than "I just wanted a Dodge with a hemi so I could hang chrome
accessories on it". No trailer registered to the same owner, meaning he
tows nothing? He gets taxed. Not in a profession which actually requires
a truck, like carpenters & landscapers? He gets taxed. If a doctor
decides to become a plumber, there are ways of giving him back his
surcharge in future years. No more buying a huge truck just because
every 4 years, you need to bring home a bale of peat moss.

Get it still, you don't. Trying to accomplish this change through
governmental taxation will only result in animosity and non-compliance.
Not to mention the fact that you'd never get Congress to agree on an
approach. Accomplishing it through a high cost of ownership due to high
fuel bills and wicked depreciation will happen with Congress doing what
it does best...nothing. The market always works...eventually. Trust the
force, Luke.



What do you do about the terminally stupid who can't understand cause and
effect?


Learn to live with them (us).

RCE

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...



No, stupid. My boat uses 20 gallons of fuel in an average year, assuming
it's used every weekend between mid-May and late October, with some
weekdays thrown in.


Not to take this to a level of absurdity, but .... are you sure that's all
the oil based product that it uses?

Do you have it hauled?

Towed by me. Subtracts about 1 mpg for the towing vehicle, based on an
average of many trips.

Do you keep it in a slip? (my guess is mooring .... that's better)

No slip. It's a 14' yacht.

Do you bottom paint?
Nope.

Do you clean it?
Just water, and the occasional splash of dish liquid for the fish smell.


Do you lubricate it?
Obviously.


All told, is the total use of oil really necessary for something that is
purely for pleasure?

Tsk, tsk.

RCE

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

Get it still, you don't. Trying to accomplish this change through
governmental taxation will only result in animosity and non-compliance.
Not to mention the fact that you'd never get Congress to agree on an
approach. Accomplishing it through a high cost of ownership due to high
fuel bills and wicked depreciation will happen with Congress doing what
it does best...nothing. The market always works...eventually. Trust the
force, Luke.



What do you do about the terminally stupid who can't understand cause and
effect?

Well eventually, the terminally part of your description will become
operative. In the meantime, let them pay through the nose. But when it
costs $200 to fill up the tank of their truck, do you really think even the
dimmest bulb won't get a clue? That level of witlessness is not typically
found in the company of unlimited financial resources.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Black Dog" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

Yes, common sense. If hybrids and being politically correct floats your
boat, do so without preaching.
If an Escalade floats your boat, do so, responsibly. The same applies
for everything in between.

RCE

Yes exactly. Funny you should use the phrase "float your boat". My boat
wouldn't get very far from driveway without the help of our Ford Explorer.
The KIA Rio that I run to work and back everyday sure don't cut it in the
trailering department. I realize that some people cannot afford two
vehicles. If we had to give up one, despite gas prices, despite the
"environment", it would probably be the Rio. The SUV is just too useful.

Fine, but you're not typical of the vast majority of truck owners. You
actually have a need for a towing vehicle.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Black Dog" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

Yes, common sense. If hybrids and being politically correct floats your
boat, do so without preaching.
If an Escalade floats your boat, do so, responsibly. The same applies
for everything in between.

RCE

Yes exactly. Funny you should use the phrase "float your boat". My boat
wouldn't get very far from driveway without the help of our Ford
Explorer. The KIA Rio that I run to work and back everyday sure don't cut
it in the trailering department. I realize that some people cannot
afford two vehicles. If we had to give up one, despite gas prices,
despite the "environment", it would probably be the Rio. The SUV is just
too useful.

Fine, but you're not typical of the vast majority of truck owners. You
actually have a need for a towing vehicle.


It does not necessarily be needed for towing only....perhaps to get onto and
out of construction sites, perhaps to transport a good deal of material or a
high number of passengers. There are all sorts of reasons one may need an
SUV or pickup truck, just like you need one....eh?

Regardless, can you show some proof to your statement that most folks who
own large vehicles do not need them?

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RG" wrote in message
m...
Get it still, you don't. Trying to accomplish this change through
governmental taxation will only result in animosity and non-compliance.
Not to mention the fact that you'd never get Congress to agree on an
approach. Accomplishing it through a high cost of ownership due to high
fuel bills and wicked depreciation will happen with Congress doing what
it does best...nothing. The market always works...eventually. Trust
the force, Luke.



What do you do about the terminally stupid who can't understand cause and
effect?

Well eventually, the terminally part of your description will become
operative. In the meantime, let them pay through the nose. But when it
costs $200 to fill up the tank of their truck, do you really think even
the dimmest bulb won't get a clue? That level of witlessness is not
typically found in the company of unlimited financial resources.



Meanwhile, they're part of a problem that this country MUST deal with.
That's why I see nothing wrong with gently leading them by the nose.
Hell....there are still billboards addressing smoking, DWI and domestic
violence. They may not be the greatest thing since bait vending machines, as
far as getting a message across, but I think they achieve more than nothing.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Black Dog" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

Yes, common sense. If hybrids and being politically correct floats
your boat, do so without preaching.
If an Escalade floats your boat, do so, responsibly. The same applies
for everything in between.

RCE

Yes exactly. Funny you should use the phrase "float your boat". My
boat wouldn't get very far from driveway without the help of our Ford
Explorer. The KIA Rio that I run to work and back everyday sure don't
cut it in the trailering department. I realize that some people cannot
afford two vehicles. If we had to give up one, despite gas prices,
despite the "environment", it would probably be the Rio. The SUV is
just too useful.

Fine, but you're not typical of the vast majority of truck owners. You
actually have a need for a towing vehicle.


It does not necessarily be needed for towing only....perhaps to get onto
and out of construction sites, perhaps to transport a good deal of
material or a high number of passengers. There are all sorts of reasons
one may need an SUV or pickup truck, just like you need one....eh?

Regardless, can you show some proof to your statement that most folks who
own large vehicles do not need them?


Yes, I can show proof.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Black Dog" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

Yes, common sense. If hybrids and being politically correct floats
your boat, do so without preaching.
If an Escalade floats your boat, do so, responsibly. The same applies
for everything in between.

RCE

Yes exactly. Funny you should use the phrase "float your boat". My
boat wouldn't get very far from driveway without the help of our Ford
Explorer. The KIA Rio that I run to work and back everyday sure don't
cut it in the trailering department. I realize that some people cannot
afford two vehicles. If we had to give up one, despite gas prices,
despite the "environment", it would probably be the Rio. The SUV is
just too useful.

Fine, but you're not typical of the vast majority of truck owners. You
actually have a need for a towing vehicle.


It does not necessarily be needed for towing only....perhaps to get onto
and out of construction sites, perhaps to transport a good deal of
material or a high number of passengers. There are all sorts of reasons
one may need an SUV or pickup truck, just like you need one....eh?

Regardless, can you show some proof to your statement that most folks who
own large vehicles do not need them?


Yes, I can show proof.


Then please do so.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Black Dog" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

Yes, common sense. If hybrids and being politically correct floats
your boat, do so without preaching.
If an Escalade floats your boat, do so, responsibly. The same
applies for everything in between.

RCE

Yes exactly. Funny you should use the phrase "float your boat". My
boat wouldn't get very far from driveway without the help of our Ford
Explorer. The KIA Rio that I run to work and back everyday sure don't
cut it in the trailering department. I realize that some people
cannot afford two vehicles. If we had to give up one, despite gas
prices, despite the "environment", it would probably be the Rio. The
SUV is just too useful.

Fine, but you're not typical of the vast majority of truck owners. You
actually have a need for a towing vehicle.


It does not necessarily be needed for towing only....perhaps to get onto
and out of construction sites, perhaps to transport a good deal of
material or a high number of passengers. There are all sorts of reasons
one may need an SUV or pickup truck, just like you need one....eh?

Regardless, can you show some proof to your statement that most folks
who own large vehicles do not need them?


Yes, I can show proof.


Then please do so.


You're not capable of understanding it. I don't waste my time that way.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

Meanwhile, they're part of a problem that this country MUST deal with.
That's why I see nothing wrong with gently leading them by the nose.
Hell....there are still billboards addressing smoking, DWI and domestic
violence. They may not be the greatest thing since bait vending machines,
as far as getting a message across, but I think they achieve more than
nothing.

You appear to be looking for 100% compliance. Essentially every man, woman
and child marching in lockstep toward your vision. Can you recall any other
social movement that achieved that level of acceptance? Perhaps you need to
ratchet down your expectations a notch. A trend is probably the best that
can be hoped for. Humanity is a diverse lot. It's our burden and our
blessing.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Black Dog" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

Yes, common sense. If hybrids and being politically correct floats
your boat, do so without preaching.
If an Escalade floats your boat, do so, responsibly. The same
applies for everything in between.

RCE

Yes exactly. Funny you should use the phrase "float your boat". My
boat wouldn't get very far from driveway without the help of our Ford
Explorer. The KIA Rio that I run to work and back everyday sure don't
cut it in the trailering department. I realize that some people
cannot afford two vehicles. If we had to give up one, despite gas
prices, despite the "environment", it would probably be the Rio. The
SUV is just too useful.

Fine, but you're not typical of the vast majority of truck owners. You
actually have a need for a towing vehicle.


It does not necessarily be needed for towing only....perhaps to get
onto and out of construction sites, perhaps to transport a good deal of
material or a high number of passengers. There are all sorts of
reasons one may need an SUV or pickup truck, just like you need
one....eh?

Regardless, can you show some proof to your statement that most folks
who own large vehicles do not need them?


Yes, I can show proof.


Then please do so.


You're not capable of understanding it. I don't waste my time that way.


More insults Doug. Why can't you just discuss this like an adult?

You said you could provide proof of your statement.....so please do.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

Don White wrote:

From an outsiders point of view... a lot of Americaans seem to have a
fetish for size & power.
The Honda Civic has been the best selling car in Canada for 8 years
while the Toyota Camry has been the USA's top seller for 6 years
In the SUV catagory it's the Ford Escape...vs the Ford Explorer stateside.

We looked at the Escape and the Jeep Liberty. Both were a bit too weak
in the towing department and the difference in gas milage was barely
perceptable. That's why we got an Explorer.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

RCE wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

RCE wrote:
Again, stolen from another NG, the following is a portion of an article
published in the "Economist".

It seems to refute some of the Peak Oil doom and gloom arguments.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was an article in the latest Economist about this. Here's
a little of it:

As oil production slows,
prices will rise up and down the futures curve, stimulating new
technology and conservation. We might be running low on $20 oil,
but for $60 we have adequate oil supplies for decades to come."


----------------

$60/bbl for "decades to come"? How far from the wastebasket does one
need to stand to score 3 points with a paper wad?


According to his theory, $100/bbl will add a couple of more decades of
availability.

RCE

I don't know when that theory was expounded, but that $60/bbl oil
lasted maybe a few weeks or months. Certainly not "decades". We're
closing in on $80.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Black Dog" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

Yes, common sense. If hybrids and being politically correct floats
your boat, do so without preaching.
If an Escalade floats your boat, do so, responsibly. The same
applies for everything in between.

RCE

Yes exactly. Funny you should use the phrase "float your boat". My
boat wouldn't get very far from driveway without the help of our
Ford Explorer. The KIA Rio that I run to work and back everyday sure
don't cut it in the trailering department. I realize that some
people cannot afford two vehicles. If we had to give up one,
despite gas prices, despite the "environment", it would probably be
the Rio. The SUV is just too useful.

Fine, but you're not typical of the vast majority of truck owners.
You actually have a need for a towing vehicle.


It does not necessarily be needed for towing only....perhaps to get
onto and out of construction sites, perhaps to transport a good deal
of material or a high number of passengers. There are all sorts of
reasons one may need an SUV or pickup truck, just like you need
one....eh?

Regardless, can you show some proof to your statement that most folks
who own large vehicles do not need them?


Yes, I can show proof.


Then please do so.


You're not capable of understanding it. I don't waste my time that way.


More insults Doug. Why can't you just discuss this like an adult?

You said you could provide proof of your statement.....so please do.


Look around you, Jimmy. There is absolutely, positively no way in hell that
the enormous increase in truck ownership over the past 30 years is due to
actual need.

-Most don't even have a hitch on them. They tow nothing.

-There've been surveys indicating that the average SUV owner carries 1-2
passengers most of the time, and never more than 4.

-We have not seen a 10-fold increase in the number of construction workers
and trades people. Furthermore, I have housing developments in progress near
me. I see more of the workers arriving in cars, not trucks. You don't need a
truck to haul 2 hammers, a tool belt, and a cordless drill. They're smart
enough to figure this out, and apparently, they see no need to drive a
pickup because someone else does. So much for "construction sites", as you
mentioned. Too bad soccer moms can't figure this out.

You keep coming back to people who actually need them. Do you know what the
typical female truck buyer gives as a reason?

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RG" wrote in message
. ..

Meanwhile, they're part of a problem that this country MUST deal with.
That's why I see nothing wrong with gently leading them by the nose.
Hell....there are still billboards addressing smoking, DWI and domestic
violence. They may not be the greatest thing since bait vending machines,
as far as getting a message across, but I think they achieve more than
nothing.

You appear to be looking for 100% compliance. Essentially every man,
woman and child marching in lockstep toward your vision. Can you recall
any other social movement that achieved that level of acceptance? Perhaps
you need to ratchet down your expectations a notch. A trend is probably
the best that can be hoped for. Humanity is a diverse lot. It's our
burden and our blessing.



Recycling's got extremely high compliance, if you believe the numerous
surveys that's been done over the years. That trend took 20-30 years to
reach current levels.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Black Dog" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

Yes, common sense. If hybrids and being politically correct
floats your boat, do so without preaching.
If an Escalade floats your boat, do so, responsibly. The same
applies for everything in between.

RCE

Yes exactly. Funny you should use the phrase "float your boat".
My boat wouldn't get very far from driveway without the help of our
Ford Explorer. The KIA Rio that I run to work and back everyday
sure don't cut it in the trailering department. I realize that
some people cannot afford two vehicles. If we had to give up one,
despite gas prices, despite the "environment", it would probably be
the Rio. The SUV is just too useful.

Fine, but you're not typical of the vast majority of truck owners.
You actually have a need for a towing vehicle.


It does not necessarily be needed for towing only....perhaps to get
onto and out of construction sites, perhaps to transport a good deal
of material or a high number of passengers. There are all sorts of
reasons one may need an SUV or pickup truck, just like you need
one....eh?

Regardless, can you show some proof to your statement that most folks
who own large vehicles do not need them?


Yes, I can show proof.


Then please do so.


You're not capable of understanding it. I don't waste my time that way.


More insults Doug. Why can't you just discuss this like an adult?

You said you could provide proof of your statement.....so please do.


Look around you, Jimmy. There is absolutely, positively no way in hell
that the enormous increase in truck ownership over the past 30 years is
due to actual need.

-Most don't even have a hitch on them. They tow nothing.

Proof?



-There've been surveys indicating that the average SUV owner carries 1-2
passengers most of the time, and never more than 4.

So? What is your point? How many do you carry in your pickup truck most
of the time? (I think you said you were divorced, so I would guess the
answer to be..........one.)



-We have not seen a 10-fold increase in the number of construction workers
and trades people. Furthermore, I have housing developments in progress
near me. I see more of the workers arriving in cars, not trucks. You don't
need a truck to haul 2 hammers, a tool belt, and a cordless drill. They're
smart enough to figure this out, and apparently, they see no need to drive
a pickup because someone else does. So much for "construction sites", as
you mentioned. Too bad soccer moms can't figure this out.


Ahh, so it is the *soccer mom's* that you have a problem with.

I thought most drive mini vans so as to lug around a bunch of kids, most of
which probably get better gas mileage than your pickup truck. Is that not a
good enough reason for you? Don't they have a right to buy whatever they
want to?



You keep coming back to people who actually need them. Do you know what
the typical female truck buyer gives as a reason?


No, nor do I know what the typical male truck buyer gives as a reason. Are
you saying that only men who buy trucks have a reason for doing so?

The bottom line is that it remains all about choice....and choice is good.

For you it also remains 'do as I say but not as I do' your rules apply to
everyone but you.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

Recycling's got extremely high compliance, if you believe the numerous
surveys that's been done over the years. That trend took 20-30 years to
reach current levels.

Precisely. 20-30 years just to get people to put one kind of garbage in one
receptacle and another type of garbage in a different one. I'm thinking
Americans never really had a love affair with their garbage or how they
disposed of it. But they damn sure have one with their cars. Can you
imagine how much more difficult it will be to effect change on car buying
habits than it was with how they handle their trash?

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

Look around you, Jimmy. There is absolutely, positively no way in hell
that the enormous increase in truck ownership over the past 30 years is
due to actual need.

-Most don't even have a hitch on them. They tow nothing.

Proof?

My mistake: Not just "no hitch". Not even a towing bar with an opening into
which to put the hitch. They tow nothing. Open your eyes. You'll see it too.


-There've been surveys indicating that the average SUV owner carries 1-2
passengers most of the time, and never more than 4.

So? What is your point? How many do you carry in your pickup truck
most of the time? (I think you said you were divorced, so I would guess
the answer to be..........one.)

I never said I bought it to carry 12 kids to baseball practice. I bought it
because I wanted REAR wheel drive, and the ability to carry 4 tall
passengers. In 2002, the choices were limited as follows:

1) Crown Victoria. Better gas mileage, but I didn't want the exploding gas
tank feature, which was standard until two years later. All other sedans
capable of towing were front wheel drive.

2) Double cabs from all other manufacturers only came with a V-8. I didn't
want or need a V-8.

What would you have bought?



-We have not seen a 10-fold increase in the number of construction
workers and trades people. Furthermore, I have housing developments in
progress near me. I see more of the workers arriving in cars, not trucks.
You don't need a truck to haul 2 hammers, a tool belt, and a cordless
drill. They're smart enough to figure this out, and apparently, they see
no need to drive a pickup because someone else does. So much for
"construction sites", as you mentioned. Too bad soccer moms can't figure
this out.

Ahh, so it is the *soccer mom's* that you have a problem with.

Well, if you had any sense of....anything....oh never mind.



I thought most drive mini vans so as to lug around a bunch of kids, most
of which probably get better gas mileage than your pickup truck. Is that
not a good enough reason for you? Don't they have a right to buy whatever
they want to?

A mini van would've been a good idea, except that the only ones worth
considering, in terms of quality, were front wheel drive.



You keep coming back to people who actually need them. Do you know what
the typical female truck buyer gives as a reason?

No, nor do I know what the typical male truck buyer gives as a reason.
Are you saying that only men who buy trucks have a reason for doing so?

Drunk again? Do you notice that some ads are directed very obviously at one
gender or another? Some are so obvious that they're like a boxing glove
popping out of the TV and knocking you out of your chair.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"RG" wrote in message
...



Recycling's got extremely high compliance, if you believe the numerous
surveys that's been done over the years. That trend took 20-30 years to
reach current levels.

Precisely. 20-30 years just to get people to put one kind of garbage in
one receptacle and another type of garbage in a different one. I'm
thinking Americans never really had a love affair with their garbage or
how they disposed of it. But they damn sure have one with their cars.
Can you imagine how much more difficult it will be to effect change on car
buying habits than it was with how they handle their trash?


Some people had a love affair with working in the textile biz. That's
history. When's the last time you were able to find a dress shirt made in
this country? I don't mean a custom made shirt - I mean a pile of shirts, in
packages, in a store. Change is a bitch. Oh well.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

Some people had a love affair with working in the textile biz. That's
history. When's the last time you were able to find a dress shirt made in
this country? I don't mean a custom made shirt - I mean a pile of shirts,
in packages, in a store. Change is a bitch. Oh well.


You keep coming up with these absolutely perfect examples, Doug. Change is
a bitch, no doubt. The high cost of domestic labor is what caused the
domestic textile industry to crumble and be sent overseas. It's why you
can't by a domestically made mass-produced dress shirt. Market forces. The
high cost of fuel is what will change the buying choices of American car
buyers. Market forces again.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

Look around you, Jimmy. There is absolutely, positively no way in hell
that the enormous increase in truck ownership over the past 30 years is
due to actual need.

-Most don't even have a hitch on them. They tow nothing.

Proof?

My mistake: Not just "no hitch". Not even a towing bar with an opening
into which to put the hitch. They tow nothing. Open your eyes. You'll see
it too.


-There've been surveys indicating that the average SUV owner carries 1-2
passengers most of the time, and never more than 4.

So? What is your point? How many do you carry in your pickup truck
most of the time? (I think you said you were divorced, so I would guess
the answer to be..........one.)

I never said I bought it to carry 12 kids to baseball practice. I bought
it because I wanted REAR wheel drive, and the ability to carry 4 tall
passengers. In 2002, the choices were limited as follows:

1) Crown Victoria. Better gas mileage, but I didn't want the exploding gas
tank feature, which was standard until two years later. All other sedans
capable of towing were front wheel drive.

2) Double cabs from all other manufacturers only came with a V-8. I didn't
want or need a V-8.

What would you have bought?



-We have not seen a 10-fold increase in the number of construction
workers and trades people. Furthermore, I have housing developments in
progress near me. I see more of the workers arriving in cars, not
trucks. You don't need a truck to haul 2 hammers, a tool belt, and a
cordless drill. They're smart enough to figure this out, and apparently,
they see no need to drive a pickup because someone else does. So much
for "construction sites", as you mentioned. Too bad soccer moms can't
figure this out.

Ahh, so it is the *soccer mom's* that you have a problem with.

Well, if you had any sense of....anything....oh never mind.



I thought most drive mini vans so as to lug around a bunch of kids, most
of which probably get better gas mileage than your pickup truck. Is that
not a good enough reason for you? Don't they have a right to buy
whatever they want to?

A mini van would've been a good idea, except that the only ones worth
considering, in terms of quality, were front wheel drive.



You keep coming back to people who actually need them. Do you know what
the typical female truck buyer gives as a reason?

No, nor do I know what the typical male truck buyer gives as a reason.
Are you saying that only men who buy trucks have a reason for doing so?

Drunk again? Do you notice that some ads are directed very obviously at
one gender or another? Some are so obvious that they're like a boxing
glove popping out of the TV and knocking you out of your chair.


Let me know when you grow up Doug.......maybe then we can we can continue
this discussion.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
m...

Look around you, Jimmy. There is absolutely, positively no way in hell
that the enormous increase in truck ownership over the past 30 years is
due to actual need.

-Most don't even have a hitch on them. They tow nothing.

Proof?

My mistake: Not just "no hitch". Not even a towing bar with an opening
into which to put the hitch. They tow nothing. Open your eyes. You'll see
it too.


-There've been surveys indicating that the average SUV owner carries
1-2 passengers most of the time, and never more than 4.

So? What is your point? How many do you carry in your pickup truck
most of the time? (I think you said you were divorced, so I would guess
the answer to be..........one.)

I never said I bought it to carry 12 kids to baseball practice. I bought
it because I wanted REAR wheel drive, and the ability to carry 4 tall
passengers. In 2002, the choices were limited as follows:

1) Crown Victoria. Better gas mileage, but I didn't want the exploding
gas tank feature, which was standard until two years later. All other
sedans capable of towing were front wheel drive.

2) Double cabs from all other manufacturers only came with a V-8. I
didn't want or need a V-8.

What would you have bought?



-We have not seen a 10-fold increase in the number of construction
workers and trades people. Furthermore, I have housing developments in
progress near me. I see more of the workers arriving in cars, not
trucks. You don't need a truck to haul 2 hammers, a tool belt, and a
cordless drill. They're smart enough to figure this out, and
apparently, they see no need to drive a pickup because someone else
does. So much for "construction sites", as you mentioned. Too bad
soccer moms can't figure this out.

Ahh, so it is the *soccer mom's* that you have a problem with.

Well, if you had any sense of....anything....oh never mind.



I thought most drive mini vans so as to lug around a bunch of kids, most
of which probably get better gas mileage than your pickup truck. Is
that not a good enough reason for you? Don't they have a right to buy
whatever they want to?

A mini van would've been a good idea, except that the only ones worth
considering, in terms of quality, were front wheel drive.



You keep coming back to people who actually need them. Do you know what
the typical female truck buyer gives as a reason?

No, nor do I know what the typical male truck buyer gives as a reason.
Are you saying that only men who buy trucks have a reason for doing so?

Drunk again? Do you notice that some ads are directed very obviously at
one gender or another? Some are so obvious that they're like a boxing
glove popping out of the TV and knocking you out of your chair.


Let me know when you grow up Doug.......maybe then we can we can continue
this discussion.


OK. You've never noticed that women buy cars for different reasons than men.
Got it. Just wanted to be sure we agreed on that.

Peak Oil - counterargument
 

JimH wrote:

The bottom line is that it remains all about choice....and choice is good.

For you it also remains 'do as I say but not as I do' your rules apply to
everyone but you.

But isn't that how the left-wingers always want it?
Choice is fine, as long as it's their choice.

But some how they manage to convince those near or below povertly level
that the leftist have their best interest at heart. Sure they do.
That's why lefties develop programs to keep those 'constiuents' at or
below the poverty level and dependent upon them. Today's
Democrat/Socialist/Liberal party is noting more than a group of
'elitist political-plantation masters' who've pulled quite a con-job on
their 'slaves'.

Till