"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Fred Dehl" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

Are you the same Fred Dehl who suggested that ANWR, a tiny
incremental
step, would be better than nothing?

You're the only one who's suggested ANWR is a "tiny incremental step".
It's far more than that.

Use numbers. What percentage is, or is not incremental, in your
opinion?

Until they started drilling in the Arabian Pennisula the didn't think
there was any oil.


And yes, one new vehicle could make a difference. Ford & GM didn't
take the idea of mini-vans

Mini-vans are loathed by your ilk.

Not relevant to this discussion. This is about marketing a product, not
my opinion of certain vehicles.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/

Ford Escape $19,995 (Base price)

Ford Escape Hybrid $27,515 (Base price)

That is a $7,520 dollar difference which translates into 3,008 gallons
of gas at the average price in the DC area today of $2.50 per gallon.
At 25 MPG that would mean that I could drive my non-Hybrid Escape 75,000
miles before I reach the acquisition cost of the Escape Hybrid.

You tell me which one you would buy?

seriously until Chrysler started selling
them like hotcakes. One highly efficient SUV that's successful will
lead the competition into the same market.

The cost of operating these SUVs is little different from operating a
gas
one.

I'll need a link for your source of that information. Good luck. The
vehicles don't exist yet.

The battery life of an Hybrid is estimated to be 100,000 miles. With a
projected cost of $5,000 to replace the batteries you have removed this
vehicle form the used vehicle market making them even less desirable to
acquire in the first place. When the salesman asks you if you are
trading something in and you say a Hybrid and he says we don't take
those in trade what are you going to do?

Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of vehicle, regardless of
how it was powered.

What do they say in tennis? Game, set and match.


Just playing YOUR game, Bert. Remember? I tell you used car lots are loaded
with 1-2 year old SUVs, not because they came from ended leases, but because
many people woke up and figured out they were the wrong car. You respond by
explaining the purchase terms of your vehicle. It's called a "feint".

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Fred Dehl" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

Are you the same Fred Dehl who suggested that ANWR, a tiny
incremental
step, would be better than nothing?

You're the only one who's suggested ANWR is a "tiny incremental
step".
It's far more than that.

Use numbers. What percentage is, or is not incremental, in your
opinion?

Until they started drilling in the Arabian Pennisula the didn't think
there was any oil.


And yes, one new vehicle could make a difference. Ford & GM didn't
take the idea of mini-vans

Mini-vans are loathed by your ilk.

Not relevant to this discussion. This is about marketing a product,
not my opinion of certain vehicles.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/

Ford Escape $19,995 (Base price)

Ford Escape Hybrid $27,515 (Base price)

That is a $7,520 dollar difference which translates into 3,008 gallons
of gas at the average price in the DC area today of $2.50 per gallon.
At 25 MPG that would mean that I could drive my non-Hybrid Escape
75,000 miles before I reach the acquisition cost of the Escape Hybrid.

You tell me which one you would buy?

seriously until Chrysler started selling
them like hotcakes. One highly efficient SUV that's successful will
lead the competition into the same market.

The cost of operating these SUVs is little different from operating a
gas
one.

I'll need a link for your source of that information. Good luck. The
vehicles don't exist yet.

The battery life of an Hybrid is estimated to be 100,000 miles. With a
projected cost of $5,000 to replace the batteries you have removed this
vehicle form the used vehicle market making them even less desirable to
acquire in the first place. When the salesman asks you if you are
trading something in and you say a Hybrid and he says we don't take
those in trade what are you going to do?

Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of vehicle, regardless
of how it was powered.

What do they say in tennis? Game, set and match.


Just playing YOUR game, Bert. Remember? I tell you used car lots are
loaded with 1-2 year old SUVs, not because they came from ended leases,
but because many people woke up and figured out they were the wrong car.
You respond by explaining the purchase terms of your vehicle. It's called
a "feint".

You are making an assumption about why these people traded in 1-2 year old
SUV's. When you have interviewed a statistically appropriate number and
generated some statistics let me know.

I was explaining to you that the decision to purchase a Hybrid is not based
upon economics but, it is based upon emotion. Also, the fact that you said
"Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of vehicle, regardless of
how it was powered" was a poor attempt to deflect the factthat you were
beaten on your own terms.

Let's do it again.

Honda Civic Sedan DX $14,760 (Base model)

Honda Civic Sedan Hybrid $22,150 (Base model)

Well what do you know? There is a $7,390 difference in price which is about
the same difference between the Ford Escape and the Ford Escape Hybrid. The
difference in price between the Civic and Civic Hybrid in gallons of
gasoline, under the same terms above, is 2,956. Let's assume that the Civic
gets 32 miles per gallon. I will be able to drive my non-Hybrid Civic 94,500
miles before reaching the acquisition cost of the Civic Hybrid. And, the
batteries will still have to be replaced at about 100,000 miles incurring a
cost of $5,000 (batteries are batteries) and you have made the Civic Hybrid
a bad choice as a used care and a new car.

Do we need to go through the figures for the Toyota Prius?

Hybrid vehicles are not cost effective. Hybrid vehicles pose dangers to
emergency personnel.

Bert Robbins wrote:
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
m...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
news:Hq6dnWfp66gXgrrZnZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@comcast. com...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Fred Dehl" wrote in message
.. .

"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:


Are you the same Fred Dehl who suggested that ANWR, a tiny
incremental
step, would be better than nothing?

You're the only one who's suggested ANWR is a "tiny incremental
step".
It's far more than that.

Use numbers. What percentage is, or is not incremental, in your
opinion?

Until they started drilling in the Arabian Pennisula the didn't think
there was any oil.


And yes, one new vehicle could make a difference. Ford & GM didn't
take the idea of mini-vans

Mini-vans are loathed by your ilk.

Not relevant to this discussion. This is about marketing a product,
not my opinion of certain vehicles.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/

Ford Escape $19,995 (Base price)

Ford Escape Hybrid $27,515 (Base price)

That is a $7,520 dollar difference which translates into 3,008 gallons
of gas at the average price in the DC area today of $2.50 per gallon.
At 25 MPG that would mean that I could drive my non-Hybrid Escape
75,000 miles before I reach the acquisition cost of the Escape Hybrid.

You tell me which one you would buy?


seriously until Chrysler started selling
them like hotcakes. One highly efficient SUV that's successful will
lead the competition into the same market.

The cost of operating these SUVs is little different from operating a
gas
one.

I'll need a link for your source of that information. Good luck. The
vehicles don't exist yet.

The battery life of an Hybrid is estimated to be 100,000 miles. With a
projected cost of $5,000 to replace the batteries you have removed this
vehicle form the used vehicle market making them even less desirable to
acquire in the first place. When the salesman asks you if you are
trading something in and you say a Hybrid and he says we don't take
those in trade what are you going to do?

Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of vehicle, regardless
of how it was powered.

What do they say in tennis? Game, set and match.


Just playing YOUR game, Bert. Remember? I tell you used car lots are
loaded with 1-2 year old SUVs, not because they came from ended leases,
but because many people woke up and figured out they were the wrong car.
You respond by explaining the purchase terms of your vehicle. It's called
a "feint".


You are making an assumption about why these people traded in 1-2 year old
SUV's. When you have interviewed a statistically appropriate number and
generated some statistics let me know.

I was explaining to you that the decision to purchase a Hybrid is not based
upon economics but, it is based upon emotion. Also, the fact that you said
"Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of vehicle, regardless of
how it was powered" was a poor attempt to deflect the factthat you were
beaten on your own terms.

Let's do it again.

Honda Civic Sedan DX $14,760 (Base model)

Honda Civic Sedan Hybrid $22,150 (Base model)

Well what do you know? There is a $7,390 difference in price which is about
the same difference between the Ford Escape and the Ford Escape Hybrid. The
difference in price between the Civic and Civic Hybrid in gallons of
gasoline, under the same terms above, is 2,956. Let's assume that the Civic
gets 32 miles per gallon. I will be able to drive my non-Hybrid Civic 94,500
miles before reaching the acquisition cost of the Civic Hybrid. And, the
batteries will still have to be replaced at about 100,000 miles incurring a
cost of $5,000 (batteries are batteries) and you have made the Civic Hybrid
a bad choice as a used care and a new car.

Do we need to go through the figures for the Toyota Prius?

Hybrid vehicles are not cost effective. Hybrid vehicles pose dangers to
emergency personnel.




You have to look at those hybrid vehicles as a first step.
You'd better hope the technology improves or your kids will be riding
bicycles.

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

Just playing YOUR game, Bert. Remember? I tell you used car lots are
loaded with 1-2 year old SUVs, not because they came from ended leases,
but because many people woke up and figured out they were the wrong car.
You respond by explaining the purchase terms of your vehicle. It's called
a "feint".

You are making an assumption about why these people traded in 1-2 year old
SUV's. When you have interviewed a statistically appropriate number and
generated some statistics let me know.

I was explaining to you that the decision to purchase a Hybrid is not
based upon economics but, it is based upon emotion. Also, the fact that
you said "Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of vehicle,
regardless of how it was powered" was a poor attempt to deflect the
factthat you were beaten on your own terms.

I didn't say I wouldn't buy a hybrid. I said I wouldn't buy a hybrid SUV.



Let's do it again.

Honda Civic Sedan DX $14,760 (Base model)

Honda Civic Sedan Hybrid $22,150 (Base model)

Well what do you know? There is a $7,390 difference in price which is
about the same difference between the Ford Escape and the Ford Escape
Hybrid. The difference in price between the Civic and Civic Hybrid in
gallons of gasoline, under the same terms above, is 2,956. Let's assume
that the Civic gets 32 miles per gallon. I will be able to drive my
non-Hybrid Civic 94,500 miles before reaching the acquisition cost of the
Civic Hybrid. And, the batteries will still have to be replaced at about
100,000 miles incurring a cost of $5,000 (batteries are batteries) and you
have made the Civic Hybrid a bad choice as a used care and a new car.

Perhaps people buy the hybrid version because they want to use less
gasoline, not because they care so much about total cost of ownership. Is
that possible?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

Just playing YOUR game, Bert. Remember? I tell you used car lots are
loaded with 1-2 year old SUVs, not because they came from ended leases,
but because many people woke up and figured out they were the wrong car.
You respond by explaining the purchase terms of your vehicle. It's
called a "feint".

You are making an assumption about why these people traded in 1-2 year
old SUV's. When you have interviewed a statistically appropriate number
and generated some statistics let me know.

I was explaining to you that the decision to purchase a Hybrid is not
based upon economics but, it is based upon emotion. Also, the fact that
you said "Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of vehicle,
regardless of how it was powered" was a poor attempt to deflect the
factthat you were beaten on your own terms.

I didn't say I wouldn't buy a hybrid. I said I wouldn't buy a hybrid SUV.

You were harping about people "turning in" their SUV's for other vehicles.
So, I used the Escape as an example and your responded that it didn't matter
because you wouldn't buy that kind of vehicle. Do you know how childish that
sounds?


Let's do it again.

Honda Civic Sedan DX $14,760 (Base model)

Honda Civic Sedan Hybrid $22,150 (Base model)

Well what do you know? There is a $7,390 difference in price which is
about the same difference between the Ford Escape and the Ford Escape
Hybrid. The difference in price between the Civic and Civic Hybrid in
gallons of gasoline, under the same terms above, is 2,956. Let's assume
that the Civic gets 32 miles per gallon. I will be able to drive my
non-Hybrid Civic 94,500 miles before reaching the acquisition cost of the
Civic Hybrid. And, the batteries will still have to be replaced at about
100,000 miles incurring a cost of $5,000 (batteries are batteries) and
you have made the Civic Hybrid a bad choice as a used care and a new car.

Perhaps people buy the hybrid version because they want to use less
gasoline, not because they care so much about total cost of ownership. Is
that possible?

Look, Doug is ignoring economics when it conveniently fits his current
position. I'll have to remember that economics are not important to you.

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

Just playing YOUR game, Bert. Remember? I tell you used car lots are
loaded with 1-2 year old SUVs, not because they came from ended leases,
but because many people woke up and figured out they were the wrong
car. You respond by explaining the purchase terms of your vehicle. It's
called a "feint".

You are making an assumption about why these people traded in 1-2 year
old SUV's. When you have interviewed a statistically appropriate number
and generated some statistics let me know.

I was explaining to you that the decision to purchase a Hybrid is not
based upon economics but, it is based upon emotion. Also, the fact that
you said "Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of vehicle,
regardless of how it was powered" was a poor attempt to deflect the
factthat you were beaten on your own terms.

I didn't say I wouldn't buy a hybrid. I said I wouldn't buy a hybrid SUV.

You were harping about people "turning in" their SUV's for other vehicles.
So, I used the Escape as an example and your responded that it didn't
matter because you wouldn't buy that kind of vehicle. Do you know how
childish that sounds?

Not much different from you explaining the financing terms of your vehicle,
which was 100% irrelevant to the discussion.




Perhaps people buy the hybrid version because they want to use less
gasoline, not because they care so much about total cost of ownership. Is
that possible?

Look, Doug is ignoring economics when it conveniently fits his current
position. I'll have to remember that economics are not important to you.

Well, people are buying hybrids right now. If battery replacement issues are
such a problem, how do YOU explain the FACT that they are selling well? Are
the customers being hypnotized when they enter the dealerships?

Perfect next vehicle for Bert...so he can be cured of his sinful
wasteful ways.
http://tinyurl.com/qmexm

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

Just playing YOUR game, Bert. Remember? I tell you used car lots are
loaded with 1-2 year old SUVs, not because they came from ended
leases, but because many people woke up and figured out they were the
wrong car. You respond by explaining the purchase terms of your
vehicle. It's called a "feint".

You are making an assumption about why these people traded in 1-2 year
old SUV's. When you have interviewed a statistically appropriate number
and generated some statistics let me know.

I was explaining to you that the decision to purchase a Hybrid is not
based upon economics but, it is based upon emotion. Also, the fact that
you said "Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of vehicle,
regardless of how it was powered" was a poor attempt to deflect the
factthat you were beaten on your own terms.

I didn't say I wouldn't buy a hybrid. I said I wouldn't buy a hybrid
SUV.

You were harping about people "turning in" their SUV's for other
vehicles. So, I used the Escape as an example and your responded that it
didn't matter because you wouldn't buy that kind of vehicle. Do you know
how childish that sounds?

Not much different from you explaining the financing terms of your
vehicle, which was 100% irrelevant to the discussion.

Perhaps people buy the hybrid version because they want to use less
gasoline, not because they care so much about total cost of ownership.
Is that possible?

Look, Doug is ignoring economics when it conveniently fits his current
position. I'll have to remember that economics are not important to you.

Well, people are buying hybrids right now. If battery replacement issues
are such a problem, how do YOU explain the FACT that they are selling
well? Are the customers being hypnotized when they enter the dealerships?

It makes them feel good, no other reason and no logic involved. I'm suprised
that you are ranting and raving about how stupid these people are for
wasting money.

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

Just playing YOUR game, Bert. Remember? I tell you used car lots are
loaded with 1-2 year old SUVs, not because they came from ended
leases, but because many people woke up and figured out they were the
wrong car. You respond by explaining the purchase terms of your
vehicle. It's called a "feint".

You are making an assumption about why these people traded in 1-2 year
old SUV's. When you have interviewed a statistically appropriate
number and generated some statistics let me know.

I was explaining to you that the decision to purchase a Hybrid is not
based upon economics but, it is based upon emotion. Also, the fact
that you said "Beats me. I don't care. I'd never buy that type of
vehicle, regardless of how it was powered" was a poor attempt to
deflect the factthat you were beaten on your own terms.

I didn't say I wouldn't buy a hybrid. I said I wouldn't buy a hybrid
SUV.

You were harping about people "turning in" their SUV's for other
vehicles. So, I used the Escape as an example and your responded that it
didn't matter because you wouldn't buy that kind of vehicle. Do you know
how childish that sounds?

Not much different from you explaining the financing terms of your
vehicle, which was 100% irrelevant to the discussion.

Perhaps people buy the hybrid version because they want to use less
gasoline, not because they care so much about total cost of ownership.
Is that possible?

Look, Doug is ignoring economics when it conveniently fits his current
position. I'll have to remember that economics are not important to you.

Well, people are buying hybrids right now. If battery replacement issues
are such a problem, how do YOU explain the FACT that they are selling
well? Are the customers being hypnotized when they enter the dealerships?

It makes them feel good, no other reason and no logic involved. I'm
suprised that you are ranting and raving about how stupid these people are
for wasting money.


I think you're assuming buyers are always stupid. What is SUV buyers were
asked this question: "If you can have every single feature and benefit you
asked for, but get 23mpg instead of 14mpg, would that interest you?" How do
you suppose some buyers would react to that?

Remember: People buy the sizzle, not the steak (as sales trainers love to
point out).

Doug Kanter wrote:


Well, people are buying hybrids right now. If battery replacement issues are
such a problem, how do YOU explain the FACT that they are selling well? Are
the customers being hypnotized when they enter the dealerships?

Here's some perspective for you;

My wife is ready to replace her Subaru. We started shopping a couple of
months ago and looked initially at the Mercedes M Class. When I
discovered that nearly all current owners are reporting a lot of
mechanical problems, we expanded the search. Really liked the Toyota
Highlander, but made the mistake of driving the hybrid. The performance
of the hybrid kicks the stuffing out of the standard V6. There is no
comparison.

People compare the mpg of the hybrid with the standard V6 and wonder,
"why would anybody pay all that much extra just to get (in real life) a
couple of more miles per gallon?" Probably nobody would. However, if
you compare the mpg to a V8 model and realize that the hybrid offers V8
performance, (not V6 performance), with fuel economy more typical of a
large displacement 4-cylinder it makes some sense.

Toyota licenses the hybrid technology to Ford, who uses it in the
Escape and the Mercury Mariner. We drove both, and I wouldn't buy
either one. Toyota only sells the 4-cylinder version to Ford, and the
4-cylinder version is very underpowered. With the 4-banger, you really
do get about the same mpg as with the gas engine and if anything the
4-banger Escapes and Mariners are *less* peppy than the gas
counterparts.

Then for about 20% more than a Highlander you can buy a Lexus, which
will probably be our final choice. The Lexus makes the Toyota look
crude by comparison. We'd own one already except there's no rush to own
a vehicle that's in short supply and where the sticker price is
absolutely non negotiable. I almost don't know how to buy a car where
you can't "deal". The Lexus guy wanted to close me and I asked him,
"Can you give me a reason to buy now?" He was pretty sharp, replying
with, "Yeah, you get to own a Lexus." :-)

(One consideration in favor of delayed timing is the "monorail tax"
drops off of our car tabs by late summer this year. Will make about a
$700 difference in the first year license cost of a vehicle in that
price range. Have to weigh that against continuing depreciation of the
present 5 year old Subaru.........)

So there's some insight into why people would consider buying hybrids.
On a fuel economy basis, don't compare to the V6 gas- compare to the V8
gas that delivers equivalent performance.