Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Yeah, I know what some of you think: "He never wanted a dry suit."

Granted, I didn't, mostly because of the high price they normally are.

Yesterday I bought a brand new one for 10 euro's (That's roughly 12 US$)
at a local smoke and water dagame shop, the only downside was that the
latex neck and ankle gaskets were damaged.

I thought that there was already an amazing price on the tag, but due to
the extensive damage to the gaskets I talked the owner down to 10 Euro's
:-).

Since it's really comfortably my size (6'8") and since the ankle gaskets
were shredded, I guess very few people would be interested in even
asking for the price.

Now that I have bought it, I have a couple of questions for experienced
dry suit owners:

-I want to add a relief zipper.

Can this be done by someone handy enough to replace the latex gaskets,
or do you recommend having it done by a company who specializes in that?

-I want to add neoprene gaskets over the latex ones, in part to prevent
scratch and UV damage as well as to keep the water out even better.
Anyone know of a company in Europe who does that kind of alteration?
I can do it myself, cutting up an old thin wetsuit and sewing on the
gaskets myself. Still, I prefer it done by someone who knows what
they're doing... :-)

-I was thinking about having latex socks added to it instead of gaskets.
I remember reading on RBP (probably years ago) that it is better for the
circulation as well as making certain that you keep your feet dry. I was
thinking about wearing booties over them. Anyone know where I can find
those latex socks in Europe (or online?) ?

Finally, I only found one company (Hiko, in Prague, CZ) who seems to do
the replacement of latex gaskets. Anyone know of such a company closer
to the Netherlands?

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Per Wilko:
Now that I have bought it, I have a couple of questions for experienced
dry suit owners:

-I want to add a relief zipper.


You can have mine. (just kidding...)

But truthfully, I got a Kokatat bag suit a couple of years ago. Everybody told
me I just *had* to have a relief zipper, so I paid the extra bucks and got one.

I find it counter productive when windsurfing because it interferes with the
harness's catching that rope that hangs down from the booms.

Haven't tried paddling with it yet - but probably will within a few days.


Is the zipper on your suit cross-shoulder or diagonal?

I could see the relief zipper's being worth something to me if my suit's zipper
was cross-shoulder, but it's diagonal and it's so easy to just unzip it that the
relief zipper really doesn't add anything for me.

I also see a marginal safety issue: one more thing to forget to zip, and having
the suit peeled down off the upper body seems to me like a much better reminder
to get it all closed up before going back on the water.

OTOH, if somebody is determined to use the thing while *on* the water.....
--
PeteCresswell

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

(PeteCresswell) wrote:

But truthfully, I got a Kokatat bag suit a couple of years ago. Everybody told
me I just *had* to have a relief zipper, so I paid the extra bucks and got one.

I find it counter productive when windsurfing because it interferes with the
harness's catching that rope that hangs down from the booms.

I think that's less of an issue when paddling. There's nothing that
should come so close to the relief zipper that it can catch. Also, I
could add a flap with velcro over it, just as there is over the normal
zipper on this drysuit.

Is the zipper on your suit cross-shoulder or diagonal?

Diagonal, and on the front.

I could see the relief zipper's being worth something to me if my suit's zipper
was cross-shoulder, but it's diagonal and it's so easy to just unzip it that the
relief zipper really doesn't add anything for me.

Even with a tight spraydeck and a PFD over it? Knowing from wearing
wetsuits with a semi-drytop how much trouble not having a relief zipper
is, I hate to have to undo all of that instead of using a seperate zipper.

I also see a marginal safety issue: one more thing to forget to zip, and having
the suit peeled down off the upper body seems to me like a much better reminder
to get it all closed up before going back on the water.

Hmmm, I never forgot to close my zipper when wearing a wetsuit, so I
doubt that I'll forget it when wearing a drysuit. But who knows what
happen to my memory as I get older... ;-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

On 18-Mar-2006, Wilko wrote:

I talked the owner down to 10 Euro's

Good price!!!

-I want to add a relief zipper.

Can this be done by someone handy enough to replace the latex gaskets,
or do you recommend having it done by a company who specializes in that

If you're brave, you could do this yourself. The biggest problem is finding the
zipper. Perhaps a dive shop could help if there are no local paddling shops
that can get it.

Almost anyone can do the basic work (even a lot of friendly neighbourhood
sewing enthusiasts). The only really hard part is testing it for waterproofness
to some standard that a company like Kokatat might do. That is - it might
stand up to pooled water but leak at the pressure of even a metre or so of
depth. If you jump into a local lake to test, you can fix the waterproofness
with well-placed beads of Aquaseal.

-I want to add neoprene gaskets over the latex ones, in part to prevent
scratch and UV damage as well as to keep the water out even better.

Scratch and UV? - yes; water out? - no.

I can do it myself, cutting up an old thin wetsuit and sewing on the
gaskets myself. Still, I prefer it done by someone who knows what
they're doing... :-)

Rather than neoprene, just use some nylon or polyester fabric. You could
make an adjustable cuff to cover and sew it on. Then waterproof the seam.

-I was thinking about having latex socks added to it instead of gaskets.

Here I'd recommend neoprene. You might even find generic neoprene socks
that will do.

Mike

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Per Wilko:
But who knows what
happen to my memory as I get older... ;-)

"Getting old is not for sissies"
(Anon..)
--
PeteCresswell

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 23:24:32 +0100, Wilko wrote:

(Snipped)


-I want to add a relief zipper.

If that doesn't work out or will cost a lot, remember Depends, adult
disposable diapers.


No, I'm not trying to be funny. It's a logical solution and workable.
Okay, it may also be funny.
--

r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.
Really.

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Wilko wrote:
Yeah, I know what some of you think: "He never wanted a dry suit."

Granted, I didn't, mostly because of the high price they normally are.

Yesterday I bought a brand new one for 10 euro's (That's roughly 12 US$)
at a local smoke and water dagame shop, the only downside was that the
latex neck and ankle gaskets were damaged.

I thought that there was already an amazing price on the tag, but due to
the extensive damage to the gaskets I talked the owner down to 10 Euro's
:-).

Since it's really comfortably my size (6'8") and since the ankle gaskets
were shredded, I guess very few people would be interested in even
asking for the price.

Now that I have bought it, I have a couple of questions for experienced
dry suit owners:

-I want to add a relief zipper.

Can this be done by someone handy enough to replace the latex gaskets,
or do you recommend having it done by a company who specializes in that?

-I want to add neoprene gaskets over the latex ones, in part to prevent
scratch and UV damage as well as to keep the water out even better.
Anyone know of a company in Europe who does that kind of alteration?
I can do it myself, cutting up an old thin wetsuit and sewing on the
gaskets myself. Still, I prefer it done by someone who knows what
they're doing... :-)

-I was thinking about having latex socks added to it instead of gaskets.
I remember reading on RBP (probably years ago) that it is better for the
circulation as well as making certain that you keep your feet dry. I was
thinking about wearing booties over them. Anyone know where I can find
those latex socks in Europe (or online?) ?

Finally, I only found one company (Hiko, in Prague, CZ) who seems to do
the replacement of latex gaskets. Anyone know of such a company closer
to the Netherlands?

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Is the wet suit a diving wet suit or for paddle sports. ie are there
valves for inflating the suit for bouyancy, Paddle suits designed for
surface usage don't have the valves, and the material tends to be
lighter weight, and more flexible. I got one out of Gortex that is
supposed to breathe. You could try a regular dive shop, they replace
the gasgets in the dive suits, and I don't know that they would be
diffierent. You would want to check it out though because the paddling
exercise is much more vigourous than diving. Dive suits are tempting to
get, and more available, but I have talked to folks that got one to
start to avoid the expense of the paddle type, only to find out they
were way uncomfortable. Also be careful with one that has been setting
around, the UV can destroy the integrity of the material resulting in
blow outs which you don't need at critical times. HYY

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Hanta-Yo-Yo wrote:

Is the wet suit a diving wet suit or for paddle sports. ie are there
valves for inflating the suit for bouyancy, Paddle suits designed for
surface usage don't have the valves, and the material tends to be
lighter weight, and more flexible.

Actually it's a drysuit, not a wetsuit, and it's definately the surface
variety model without valves. It's also pretty flexible, I tried moving
in it while sitting and doing (rodeo style) paddling movements before
buying it.

I got one out of Gortex that is
supposed to breathe. You could try a regular dive shop, they replace
the gasgets in the dive suits, and I don't know that they would be
diffierent. You would want to check it out though because the paddling
exercise is much more vigourous than diving. Dive suits are tempting to
get, and more available, but I have talked to folks that got one to
start to avoid the expense of the paddle type, only to find out they
were way uncomfortable. Also be careful with one that has been setting
around, the UV can destroy the integrity of the material resulting in
blow outs which you don't need at critical times. HYY

Yeah, thanks, but I already figured that UV part out. Alas, the seals
seem to have gotten damaged due to rough handling, either when they were
tried on by some bozo who kept their shoes on or by someone handling the
suit roughly. Since there is no sun bleaching, nor the damage to the
latex that I would associate with UV (hairline cracks and stickyness), I
think that I got a pretty decent deal. :-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Can't answer the supply questions about who and where to buy, but I can
answer the important questions. Yes, you want to add a relief zipper.
In kayak gear, you have to take off you PFD and skirt to use the
zipper, I had it added to my Kokotat Whirlpool Bibs and it's the best
money I've spent in a long time. The first thing that happens when you
get a drysuit on it that you will have to pee.

Booties are great and I'll never own a drysuit without them. They make
the suit much easier to get into and your feet stay dry and much
warmer. I have latex booties on the bibs and have not had a durablity
issue with them, but I am careful. If I had it done today, I think I
would opt for the goretex or goretex clones socks instead of the latex.


I had KoKotat install the relief zipper and booties while they were
doing some warrenty repair for me. There are a couple of companies that
advertize on BT that replace gaskets (a job you can do yourself if you
have the time) , they may do the zipper also. I assume that all of
these companies are US based.

Larry

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

-I want to add a relief zipper.

Can this be done by someone handy enough to replace the latex gaskets,
or do you recommend having it done by a company who specializes in that?

It's possible to do it yourself if you have a commercial sewing machine
and you can find the zipper. As much as I like DIY solutions, this is
one job that may be better off being done by a professional.

-I want to add neoprene gaskets over the latex ones, in part to prevent
scratch and UV damage as well as to keep the water out even better.
Anyone know of a company in Europe who does that kind of alteration?
I can do it myself, cutting up an old thin wetsuit and sewing on the
gaskets myself. Still, I prefer it done by someone who knows what
they're doing... :-)

You could glue cuffs one with Aquaseal or a similar adhesive/sealant.

-I was thinking about having latex socks added to it instead of gaskets.
I remember reading on RBP (probably years ago) that it is better for the
circulation as well as making certain that you keep your feet dry. I was
thinking about wearing booties over them.

Good idea. Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.

Anyone know where I can find those latex socks in Europe (or online?) ?

www.ossystems.com

Latex seals are easy to install yourself. Kokatat has instructions on
their site and I've got pic and instructions in a Webshots album at:

http://community.webshots.com/user/brian_nystrom-reg

It on the second page under "Drysuit Repair".

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Per Larry C:
replace gaskets (a job you can do yourself if you
have the time) ,

There's definitely some technique in replacing gaskets. Part of it is cutting
the adhesive with an accelerator called Kotol.

I once did the neck and arm seals on one of my old Bare dry suits in less than
45 minutes - using a bunch of magnets and the hood of my car with the neck seal
and squatting on a deck using a couple of ricotta cheese containers to do the
wrist seals.
--
PeteCresswell

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Per Brian Nystrom:
Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.

I finally got socks, but a reservation still nags at me.
Namely, if I flood the suit I'll be unable to drain
water at the ankle cuffs.
--
PeteCresswell

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Per Brian Nystrom:
Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.

I finally got socks, but a reservation still nags at me.
Namely, if I flood the suit I'll be unable to drain
water at the ankle cuffs.
--
PeteCresswell

I did an experiment with my flyfishing waders. Not entirely the same as a
drysuit, but the similarity is that the waders also had fixed booties. The
rumors in the flyfishing circles is that, if you fall in the river with
waders on, the water will fill your waders and you will not be able to swim,
and consequently will drown. I jumped into a swimming pool and tested the
theories; you can read the report here http://tinyurl.com/rkd3p

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body so
much. HOWEVER (and this is a big however), you cannot overappreciate how
hard it is to climb out of the water with waders that are even half-full of
water! I was completely unable to climb up the ladder out of the shallow end
of the pool, and also completely unable to lay on my belly on the edge of
the pool and roll onto land, which is the motion someone would use to get
back in a raft. I could not even sit on the edge of the pool and lift one
leg out of the water.

Although I used to use a drysuit all the time, I never realized the danger
of getting a massive leak and having it fill with water. I am a strong
proponent of booties rather than ankle gaskets, as the whole reason for a
drysuit IMHO is to create as warm, dry an environment as possible, and that
includes my feet. However, knowing what I know now, I think I'd wear a waist
belt with my drysuit to prohibit enough water from getting in to fill the
legs even partway. Draining at the ankles, as Pete suggests, would be
another option, but I think I'd rather stay warm with the booties and wear a
preventative belt instead.

--riverman

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

"riverman" wrote in message ...

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body so
much.

Yowp. I misstated, not having reread my experiment report before I posted
here. With waders, it is EASIER to swim when they are dry, as the water
pressure keeps the fabric pressed tightly to your body and you have no
interference. Once they have some water in them, they 'billow' and its like
trying to run with oversized jeans on. Not impossible, but harder.

--riverman

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

riverman wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message ...

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body so
much.

Yowp. I misstated, not having reread my experiment report before I posted
here. With waders, it is EASIER to swim when they are dry, as the water
pressure keeps the fabric pressed tightly to your body and you have no
interference. Once they have some water in them, they 'billow' and its like
trying to run with oversized jeans on. Not impossible, but harder.

--riverman

I would expect that being in a pool, and being in fast running WW would
also make a huge difference. The moving water would be pulling you down
at a much higher rate than the weight of gravity keeping you from
getting out of the pool. HYY

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

"Hanta-Yo-Yo" wrote in message
oups.com...

riverman wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message
...

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with
any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body
so
much.

Yowp. I misstated, not having reread my experiment report before I posted
here. With waders, it is EASIER to swim when they are dry, as the water
pressure keeps the fabric pressed tightly to your body and you have no
interference. Once they have some water in them, they 'billow' and its
like
trying to run with oversized jeans on. Not impossible, but harder.

--riverman

I would expect that being in a pool, and being in fast running WW would
also make a huge difference. The moving water would be pulling you down
at a much higher rate than the weight of gravity keeping you from
getting out of the pool. HYY


I'm not sure of the meaning of your post, HAA. Are you stating that a full
drysuit will 'pull you under'?

When you are immersed in the water, you have neutral buoyancy...drysuit or
not, full or not, and moving water or not. If your suit is full of water,
you have much higher mass, therefore you cannot change direction, catch an
eddy, or hold on to a handhold so easily, but there shouldn't be any new
forces trying to submerge you.

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were under.
The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is that you
cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on the end of a
throwline.

--riverman

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

riverman wrote:
"Hanta-Yo-Yo" wrote in message
oups.com...

I would expect that being in a pool, and being in fast running WW would
also make a huge difference. The moving water would be pulling you down
at a much higher rate than the weight of gravity keeping you from
getting out of the pool. HYY


I'm not sure of the meaning of your post, HAA. Are you stating that a full
drysuit will 'pull you under'?

When you are immersed in the water, you have neutral buoyancy...drysuit or
not, full or not, and moving water or not. If your suit is full of water,
you have much higher mass, therefore you cannot change direction, catch an
eddy, or hold on to a handhold so easily, but there shouldn't be any new
forces trying to submerge you.

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were under.
The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is that you
cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on the end of a
throwline.

Wasn't it Larry Cable who had a bad swim a couple of years ago when his
drysuit filled with water?

I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Larry C wrote:

Booties are great and I'll never own a drysuit without them. They make
the suit much easier to get into and your feet stay dry and much
warmer. I have latex booties on the bibs and have not had a durablity
issue with them, but I am careful. If I had it done today, I think I
would opt for the goretex or goretex clones socks instead of the latex.

Now there's a tip I hadn't thought about! That sure takes away some of
the limitations of latex! Thanks Larry!

I had KoKotat install the relief zipper and booties while they were
doing some warrenty repair for me. There are a couple of companies that
advertize on BT that replace gaskets (a job you can do yourself if you
have the time) , they may do the zipper also. I assume that all of
these companies are US based.

Yeah, I'm looking for EU based alternatives, mainly because it's cheaper
and less hassle.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
riverman wrote:

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were
under. The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is
that you cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on
the end of a throwline.

Wasn't it Larry Cable who had a bad swim a couple of years ago when his
drysuit filled with water?

Possibly, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that the problem wasn't in being
'pulled under' as much as it was with being unable to change direction. And
being unable to pull himself out of the water.


I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.


Yep, that should do it. Good thing, too. As a rafter, I never appreciated
the importance of having some sort of waistband; but now that I know the
impact of having a leak in a drysuit, I'd strongly encourage any rafters who
wear drysuits to also include a wading belt to seal off the lower half.
Imagine trying to get pulled into a boat when you weigh over 500 pounds.
Hmmm, that makes me think of another good use for a relief zipper....its one
way to let out all the water down to your crotch!

--riverman

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

riverman wrote:
"Wilko" wrote in message
...
riverman wrote:

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were
under. The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is
that you cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on
the end of a throwline.

Wasn't it Larry Cable who had a bad swim a couple of years ago when his
drysuit filled with water?

Possibly, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that the problem wasn't in being
'pulled under' as much as it was with being unable to change direction. And
being unable to pull himself out of the water.


I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.


Yep, that should do it. Good thing, too. As a rafter, I never appreciated
the importance of having some sort of waistband; but now that I know the
impact of having a leak in a drysuit, I'd strongly encourage any rafters who
wear drysuits to also include a wading belt to seal off the lower half.
Imagine trying to get pulled into a boat when you weigh over 500 pounds.
Hmmm, that makes me think of another good use for a relief zipper....its one
way to let out all the water down to your crotch!

--riverman

I did read some acct where a kayaker had a real dangerous incident
occur with a dry suit, where it had torn, and he could not recover from
a wet exit.

Your correct riverman, when you say you are equal mass with the
surrounding water, but that could put you on the bottom of the river,
bouncing along downstream and no way to resist the force of the water,
or swim to the surface. You have become a part of the river, and where
the river goes, so go you. Not a problem for the rest of the water,
just for you if you still feel the need to breathe.

The problem with the open top waders, is that the waders act like a
drift anchor, and forms a resistant force equal to the amount of water
displaced, and the velocity of the water, and I believe this force
would increase logrithmically. In other words it would get very large,
very fast. No one holding on to a throw line would be able to pull you
out. You would eventually reach some sort of terminal velocity, that
would however be going alot faster than you would feel comfortable
with, and probably taking you where you did not intend to go. At least
not quite yet.

I corresponded with various Dry suit designers, and ended up with a two
piece Palm for the exact reasons you are discussing. The wide waist
seal compartmentalizes the suit like a bulkhead. Also the suit can be
cut to a closer fit to minimalize the amount of volume inside the suit,
ie less water volume. You can vent water out of the suit if necessary,
and with ankle seals and booties. Cold wet feet can be a problem, not
being able to breathe a bigger problem!

With the two piece design, there are also no zippers to leak and need
replacing. And most important, You can go # 1 and # 2 without being
Houdini!

Now as far as the suit that Wilko has, it still sounds like an
excellent find. I would just have a strategy, like keeping a knife
handy if you had to cut some vent holes...HYY

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

"Hanta-Yo-Yo" wrote in message
oups.com...

I did read some acct where a kayaker had a real dangerous incident
occur with a dry suit, where it had torn, and he could not recover from
a wet exit.

Your correct riverman, when you say you are equal mass with the
surrounding water, but that could put you on the bottom of the river,
bouncing along downstream and no way to resist the force of the water,

Why is that? The river water isn't all on the bottom. I didn't say you'd
have equal mass with the water (although that's basically correct), I said
you'd have neutral buoyancy...which is technically incorrect as you still
have your PFD on which provides positive buoyancy. The effect of a full
drysuit would be that you have more inertia: it would be hard to change
directions (so yes, when you are under the surface, it would be hard to get
to the top), but you would also find that once you were on the top, it would
take a slight bit longer to get dragged down under. Its like swimming in
molasses. Unfortunately, you still have the same amount of breath when you
DO go under, so the longer time spent below the surface would be very
serious. But there wouldn't be any special forces holding you to the
*bottom* of the river.

The problem with the open top waders, is that the waders act like a
drift anchor,

Only if there is a velocity differential between you and the current. If you
are free-floating, they don't act as a drift anchor at all. But once you try
to stop yourself, THEN they act like a drift anchor. Additionally, like a
drift anchor, they will tend to keep you in the faster current.

and forms a resistant force equal to the amount of water
displaced, and the velocity of the water, and I believe this force
would increase logrithmically. In other words it would get very large,
very fast.

Umm, actually a log curve flattens out pretty quickly. You may be thinking
that it increases exponentially, which does get very large, very fast.
Remember, you're talking to a HS math teacher here...and I'd have to give
you pretty low marks on your armwaving. g

No one holding on to a throw line would be able to pull you
out. You would eventually reach some sort of terminal velocity, that
would however be going alot faster than you would feel comfortable
with, and probably taking you where you did not intend to go. At least
not quite yet.

You'd end up going at the velocity of the river, which is the same velocity
you'd be going if you were nude. The difference is that you (or other
people) would find it extremely difficult to change your velocity, because
you'd basically have a mass three or four times your normal mass. When that
mass is multiplied by the velocity of the river, it'd be like trying to stop
the Queen Mary.

--riverman

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

river typed With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with
water, with any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have

large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body
so
much. HOWEVER (and this is a big however), you cannot overappreciate
how
hard it is to climb out of the water with waders that are even
half-full of
water! I was completely unable to climb up the ladder out of the
shallow end
of the pool, and also completely unable to lay on my belly on the edge
of
the pool and roll onto land, which is the motion someone would use to
get
back in a raft. I could not even sit on the edge of the pool and lift
one
leg out of the water.

I can tell you from real experience that a flooded drysuit does not
effect your bouyancy, but it makes it very difficult to swim in
current. The problem is that you still have to overcome the moment the
additional weight of the water, think about swimming the length of a
pool with about 20 or 30 lbs of extra weight.

A drysuit is still well worth taking the chance of a flooded suit,
which generally only happens if you do something really stupid like
leave the relief zipper open. The addded safety under cold water and
weather paddling conditions are tremendous.

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Per riverman:
When you are immersed in the water, you have neutral buoyancy...drysuit or
not, full or not, and moving water or not. If your suit is full of water,
you have much higher mass, therefore you cannot change direction, catch an
eddy, or hold on to a handhold so easily, but there shouldn't be any new
forces trying to submerge you.

I don't have any experience in moving water, but my take on a flooded dry suit
is that the two biggest problems a

- Cold. Most people don't wear neoprene under the suit, so once it's full
of water, you're practically naked. Not totally unless the suit is
flushing a lot, but close enough....

- Getting out of the water. I'd guess you can flop your torso over a boat,
but being able to lift a water-filled leg would seem impossible.


Couple years ago I read a survival story by a couple of HobieCat sailors.
They didn't even tear a seal or anything. They capsized the boat in heavy
air and, in repeated attempts to right it, managed to take in enough water
through the seals (like, I guess, when you make a fist and those little
channels open up around the wrist tendons...) that the PolarTec under the
suits became sufficiently saturated that they no longer had the strength
the clamber back up on the lower hull of the capsized catamaran. They said
that they would've been dead if a power boat hadn't finally come along.
--
PeteCresswell

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Per Hanta-Yo-Yo:
I corresponded with various Dry suit designers, and ended up with a two
piece Palm for the exact reasons you are discussing. The wide waist
seal compartmentalizes the suit like a bulkhead. Also the suit can be
cut to a closer fit to minimalize the amount of volume inside the suit,
ie less water volume. You can vent water out of the suit if necessary,
and with ankle seals and booties. Cold wet feet can be a problem, not
being able to breathe a bigger problem!

With the two piece design, there are also no zippers to leak and need
replacing. And most important, You can go # 1 and # 2 without being
Houdini!

Before buying my Kokatat bag suit, I had a couple of Bare "Polar" dry suits.
These were basically a neoprene farmer john bonded to a nylon bag top. They
gave all the upper-body mobility I could ever want while providing floatation,
bruise-resistance, and streamlining (for swimming) on the bottom.

Only reasons I moved to the Kokatat we
-----------------------------------------
- The second Bare finally wore out,
- They'd changed the cut of the john in such a way that I didn't care for it,
- The whole suit was so heavy/warm that I needed a "spring suit" to supplement
it during the times when it was too warm for the Polar but too cold for just
shorts and a t-shirt.
-----------------------------------------

The Kokatat is nice, but I'm getting closer and closer to indulging a recurrent
fantasy of getting a glued-and-taped lightweight john plus one of those dry tops
that have an elastic waistband.

Seems to me like the john/dry top is the best of both worlds except for
entry/exit. You get the unlimited upper-body mobility, you get the
protection/floatation/streamlining of neoprene, and, even though you get the
drainability of ankle cuffs, drainability becomes a non-issue because the john
is a tight fit.

Also you get an acceptable degree of adjustability. You can wear just the john,
just the top, or both together with varying supplemental layers under the top.
You could even have two johns: something like 2mm and a 5mm for warm/cold water.

I always wear neo booties under my surf shoes anyhow to reduce bruising on my
feet, and maybe having calf zippers on the john would mitigate the remaining
entry/exit issue.
--
PeteCresswell

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Per Larry C:
something really stupid like
leave the relief zipper open.

Have you ever heard of somebody doing this?

I read an account by one seemingly-competent guy of his paddling out on really
cold water only to realize that he'd gotten a half-mile-or-so offshore without
having zipped the shoulder zipper on his dry suit.
--
PeteCresswell

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...

I don't have any experience in moving water, but my take on a flooded dry
suit
is that the two biggest problems a

- Cold. Most people don't wear neoprene under the suit, so once it's full
of water, you're practically naked. Not totally unless the suit is
flushing a lot, but close enough....

- Getting out of the water. I'd guess you can flop your torso over a
boat,
but being able to lift a water-filled leg would seem impossible.



I think you have it 100% right.

--riverman

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Pete Cresswell enquired

Per Larry C:


something really stupid like
leave the relief zipper open.


Have you ever heard of somebody doing this?

How do you think I know that it's hard to swim in a flooded drysuit
:^). If you did a search on the subject, you may still find the
archived
account of this unfortune incident. I haven't forgotten to check the
relief zipper since that incident though.

To comment on the other concern, if you are properly layered, you will
still stay fairly warm once you get the water out of the suit. On the
day that my suit flooded, I actually became mildly hypothermic, but
that was because of long term exposure to falling temperatures with a
strong wind in a wet environment. A women companion that was with me
that day was wearing a full goretex drysuit with proper layers
underneath, but she was also getting hypothermic before we got to where
we could get off the river.

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

On 19-Mar-2006, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

I finally got socks, but a reservation still nags at me.
Namely, if I flood the suit I'll be unable to drain
water at the ankle cuffs.

If your life is in danger, pull your knife and cut the booties open.

If you flood your drysuit by leaving the relief zipper open, it's probably
Murphy tapping you on the shoulder. Consider the cost of fixing the
suit his fee. If you have neglected maintenance and your seals fail,
ditto. If you tear the suit, I'd consider that a rare event - I've worn
lots of GoreTex clothing over the years and haven't ripped anything yet.
Those fabrics are pretty tough and my GoreTex drysuit (Stolquist) is at
least that tough. Since the odds are a tad long, cut and fix later - this
shouldn't be a recurring cost.

Mike

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

riverman wrote:
"Hanta-Yo-Yo" wrote in message
oups.com...

I did read some acct where a kayaker had a real dangerous incident
occur with a dry suit, where it had torn, and he could not recover from
a wet exit.

Your correct riverman, when you say you are equal mass with the
surrounding water, but that could put you on the bottom of the river,
bouncing along downstream and no way to resist the force of the water,

Why is that? The river water isn't all on the bottom. I didn't say you'd
have equal mass with the water (although that's basically correct), I said
you'd have neutral buoyancy...which is technically incorrect as you still
have your PFD on which provides positive buoyancy. The effect of a full
drysuit would be that you have more inertia: it would be hard to change
directions (so yes, when you are under the surface, it would be hard to get
to the top), but you would also find that once you were on the top, it would
take a slight bit longer to get dragged down under. Its like swimming in
molasses. Unfortunately, you still have the same amount of breath when you
DO go under, so the longer time spent below the surface would be very
serious. But there wouldn't be any special forces holding you to the
*bottom* of the river.

I did not mean to imply that you would necessarily be drug down, but
that you could find yourself bouncing along the bottom, and not able
to do much about it! Though you would still have your PFD on, that 15
Lbs of flotation would be a small percentage of your total weight, and
would not bring you to the surface very fast.

The problem with the open top waders, is that the waders act like a
drift anchor,

Only if there is a velocity differential between you and the current. If you
are free-floating, they don't act as a drift anchor at all. But once you try
to stop yourself, THEN they act like a drift anchor. Additionally, like a
drift anchor, they will tend to keep you in the faster current.

Again an undesirable situation if you are interested in getting out of
the water, which is usually the point.


and forms a resistant force equal to the amount of water
displaced, and the velocity of the water, and I believe this force
would increase logrithmically. In other words it would get very large,
very fast.

Umm, actually a log curve flattens out pretty quickly. You may be thinking
that it increases exponentially, which does get very large, very fast.
Remember, you're talking to a HS math teacher here...and I'd have to give
you pretty low marks on your armwaving. g


So you don't agree with using logs to descibe multitudes of energy
involved in hurricanes and earthquakes. Exponential works, Logs work!

No one holding on to a throw line would be able to pull you
out. You would eventually reach some sort of terminal velocity, that
would however be going alot faster than you would feel comfortable
with, and probably taking you where you did not intend to go. At least
not quite yet.

You'd end up going at the velocity of the river, which is the same velocity
you'd be going if you were nude. The difference is that you (or other
people) would find it extremely difficult to change your velocity, because
you'd basically have a mass three or four times your normal mass. When that
mass is multiplied by the velocity of the river, it'd be like trying to stop
the Queen Mary.

I do not recall saying that you would be going faster than the river,
but as you say as fast as the rest of the river. In a dry suit, that is
compromised and taking on water, you could easily take on ten gallons
of water that would weigh 80 lbs additionally. If you have ever tried
wading across deep rushing water, you know it is difficult. Try putting
on an additional 80 lbs and see how well you do.

Waders on the other hand could easily take on 20 gallons, or 160 lbs,
now you are in real trouble trying to wade that stream. Get knocked
down, and try getting up. Add to this the volume of water could be
larger than the 10 and 20 gallons, and the velocity could be faster
than where you would try to fjord, and the problems just get worse, and
the prognosis for successful self recovery less.

Also at the same time, as pointed out later in the thread, you are
getting colder all the time. The shock to vital organs and the lowering
of core temps can result in catastrophic outcome. I heard recently, "
50% of folks can't swim 50 ft to a near shore when the water temp is 50
degrees or below! Now add the extra weight and see how well you do! HYY

--riverman

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Brian Nystrom wrote:

You could glue cuffs one with Aquaseal or a similar adhesive/sealant.

Good advice. Aquaseal is also recommended to glue on neck and wrist
gaskets, plus booties if you choose booties instead of ankle gaskets.
As Pete said, use circular plastic containers of appropriate size
to stretch the latex gaskets before glueing.

Nobody has mentioned it, so I'll add this: after every trip, spray
all latex gaskets with 303 Protectant, especially on the inside where
salt-perspiration degrades the latex. Doing this will prolong latex
by a factor of 3-5x.

Good idea. Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.

And Goretex (or equivalent) socks are vastly superior to latex socks
for longevity, unless you never stand up and don't walk anywhere
with your drysuit on. My latex socks never lasted more than a year,
always failing at the crease, but I walk a lot while boating.

My relief zipper leaks, as I've said here before. One time I had to
stand in armpit-high water to help perform a rescue. Afterwards it
was necessary to remove my entire drysuit, an turn it inside out
to empty about half a liter of water per foot.

If you "burp" your drysuit after putting it on, the amount of water
that comes in isn't really that much. Leaving the relief zipper open
is mainly a problem because the drysuit unburps itself.

That said, a rafter on the Illinois river (Oregon) in flood stage
once died in a long swim, probably owing to torn neck gasket, which
had been repaired with duct tape at put-in.

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Brian Nystrom:

Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.


I finally got socks, but a reservation still nags at me.
Namely, if I flood the suit I'll be unable to drain
water at the ankle cuffs.

Have you ever flooded your suit? Do you even know of anyone who has ever
flooded a suit? This is a common concern among paddlers, but I think
it's largely a red herring. It's more of a concern for WW paddlers than
for people like me who are sea kayakers, but it still seems to me that
the likelihood of it happening is not much higher than being struck by
lightning.

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

riverman wrote:

I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.

Yep, that should do it. Good thing, too. As a rafter, I never appreciated
the importance of having some sort of waistband; but now that I know the
impact of having a leak in a drysuit, I'd strongly encourage any rafters who
wear drysuits to also include a wading belt to seal off the lower half.

A dry suit with a double tunnel would accomplish the same thing. It's
like wearing a cummerbund.

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

On 20-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Nobody has mentioned it, so I'll add this: after every trip, spray
all latex gaskets with 303 Protectant, especially on the inside where
salt-perspiration degrades the latex. Doing this will prolong latex
by a factor of 3-5x.

My experience is the opposite - I have a paddling jacket (drytop) and a drysuit that are
stored side-by-side in a closet. The ($$$) drysuit gets the 303 treatment; the jacket
is largely ignored. The drysuit is worn in cold weather; the jacket is worn in warmer
weather and is stuffed into the kayak even in hot weather (i.e. it gets abused). The
drysuit gaskets are starting to crack; the jacket's are in perfect condition (the jacket's
a couple of years older)..

If you have cuffs and a collar over the latex, you don't need much UV protection
compared to the suits with exposed latex. I'd say use the 303 sparingly on
the latter and not at all on the former. I'm not convinced that 303 doesn't cause
premature deterioration of latex.

I also have a pair of latex rubbers (no, not those things you silly Brits - these cover
your dress shoes in the rain) that are almost 25 years old. They are only slightly
heavier than the latex gaskets on my drysuit. Never been treated with anything
and have been walked on a lot. Still in good shape. YMMV

FWIW, I've never heard of perspiration damaging latex.

Mike

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Michael Daly wrote:

303 Protectant ... on inside ... will prolong latex by a factor of 3-5x.

My experience is the opposite ...

Could be the latex in your jacket was of higher quality, or newer.
Perhaps this 303 business is an urban-stream legend. But probably not,
given all the equipment vendors recommending its use, for example:
http://www.kayakacademy.com/gasket.html

If you have cuffs and a collar over the latex, you don't need much
UV protection compared to the suits with exposed latex. I'd say use
the 303 sparingly on the latter and not at all on the former. I'm not
convinced that 303 doesn't cause premature deterioration of latex.

The benefit of 303 on latex seems mostly for lubrication, rather than
UV protection. Some latex lubricant might work just as well or better.

FWIW, I've never heard of perspiration damaging latex.

"In general, Latex will decay from salt/sweat."
http://www.purplepassion.com/purple-passion-hints.html

OTOH, "Saline will not ... deteriorate the latex."
http://www.cervcap.com/faqs.html

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Per Bill Tuthill:
Could be the latex in your jacket was of higher quality, or newer.
Perhaps this 303 business is an urban-stream legend. But probably not,
given all the equipment vendors recommending its use, for example:

Dunno if my seals are/were latex or neoprene, but before I started slathering
them in 303 after every use, I was getting 18 months absolute max out of a set
of neck/wrist seals. Now I'm getting more than 3 years...

Also, I've discovered two ways to toast a set of seals virtually overnight:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Leave the suit in a vehicle that gets very hot inside.

2) Store the suit in one's garage near to an old 1920's-era beer refrigerator
that's emitting ozone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
PeteCresswell

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

On 20-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Could be the latex in your jacket was of higher quality, or newer.

The Kokatat jacket was older and one of the low end models. The Stolquist
was a lot pricier and high end.

Perhaps this 303 business is an urban-stream legend. But probably not,

I know - I've seen lots of recommendations from almost every manufacturer.

The benefit of 303 on latex seems mostly for lubrication, rather than
UV protection.

I've seen the recommendations mostly based on UV protection.

"In general, Latex will decay from salt/sweat."
http://www.purplepassion.com/purple-passion-hints.html

Interesting - I guess I don't have the same hobbies as you :-)

Mike

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Bill Tuthill wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:

You could glue cuffs one with Aquaseal or a similar adhesive/sealant.

Good advice. Aquaseal is also recommended to glue on neck and wrist
gaskets, plus booties if you choose booties instead of ankle gaskets.

There are also cements made specifically for gluing latex seals. If you
order seals from OS Systems, you should order some of their glue, too.
One big advantage of their glue is that glued items can repositioned to
some degree - if necessary - by heating them.

As Pete said, use circular plastic containers of appropriate size
to stretch the latex gaskets before glueing.

What possible advantage could there be to doing that? Seals come in
stock sizes that are designed to be glued to garments made in the same
sizes. If you did manage to stretch a seal somewhat, you would simply be
compromizing the fit of the seal to the garment. You DO need to use snug
fitting forms in the garment when replacing wrist and ankle seals or
installing latex socks. The purose is to create a smooth surface and
prevent bunching of the material, not to stretch the seal.

In my experience, stretching latex seals to fit the paddler is also a
waste of time and can damage them. Unless your neck/wrist/ankle
dimensions are very close to the seal dimensions, you're going to have
to trim them to fit. It's easy, it's quick and the suit is comfortable
immediately.

Nobody has mentioned it, so I'll add this: after every trip, spray
all latex gaskets with 303 Protectant, especially on the inside where
salt-perspiration degrades the latex. Doing this will prolong latex
by a factor of 3-5x.

Good idea especially on the outside, where the latex is subjected to UV
in use. On the inside, I prefer to use talc. It makes it so easy to slip
your head/hands/feet through seals you'll be amazed.

Good idea. Latex socks are vastly superior to ankle seals.

And Goretex (or equivalent) socks are vastly superior to latex socks
for longevity, unless you never stand up and don't walk anywhere
with your drysuit on. My latex socks never lasted more than a year,
always failing at the crease, but I walk a lot while boating.

The only problem is that Gore-Tex socks are not available as an
aftermarket item, unless you've found some source that I'm not aware of.
Kokatat will only install them on their own suits. If you own another
brand, it's latex or nothing, unless you can make your own socks. I
would love to have Gore-Tex socks on my Stohlquist suit. My latex socks
have held up for several seasons, but I like the idea of having socks
that are thinner, breathable and that slip into boots easier. BTW,
putting talc on latex socks and in the boots really helps, too.

My relief zipper leaks, as I've said here before. One time I had to
stand in armpit-high water to help perform a rescue. Afterwards it
was necessary to remove my entire drysuit, an turn it inside out
to empty about half a liter of water per foot.

Why don't you find the leak and seal it? I had some leakage with mine,
but it turned out to be leaking not through the zipper, but through some
seam tape around it that had become unbonded. Perhaps yours has the same
problem. If the zipper is actually leaking, waxing it with parafin, bees
wax or paddle wax may help.

That said, a rafter on the Illinois river (Oregon) in flood stage
once died in a long swim, probably owing to torn neck gasket, which
had been repaired with duct tape at put-in.

At the risk of sounding callous, anyone who does something that stupid
deserves to become a victim of natural selection. You don't knowingly
paddle in a compromised dry suit!

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Per Brian Nystrom:
As Pete said, use circular plastic containers of appropriate size
to stretch the latex gaskets before glueing.

What possible advantage could there be to doing that? Seals come in
stock sizes that are designed to be glued to garments made in the same
sizes. If you did manage to stretch a seal somewhat, you would simply be
compromizing the fit of the seal to the garment. You DO need to use snug
fitting forms in the garment when replacing wrist and ankle seals or
installing latex socks. The purose is to create a smooth surface and
prevent bunching of the material, not to stretch the seal.

Possible semantics issue. I don't use the Ricotta cheese containers for
stretching in the sense of making the gasket larger, just to provide a stable
foundation for bringing gasket and sleeve together. What's handy is the light
taper in the container - just put it inside the sleeve and slide it out until
the sleeve is taut and then place the gasket over top of the taught sleeve's
surface.
--
PeteCresswell

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Michael Daly wrote:

The Kokatat jacket was older and one of the low end models.
The Stolquist was a lot pricier and high end.

Stohlquist is not renowned for high quality at any price.
It's possible they specified a lower grade of latex, or recycled
one of those purplePassion suits (see below).

I've seen the recommendations mostly based on UV protection.

I believe the UV protectiveness of 303 is extremely over-rated.
Many years ago an ad appeared showing two PFDs, one sprayed with 303,
one not. The non-sprayed one was really faded. So I have sprayed
my PFD with 303 over the years, and it still faded badly.

OTOH, before going on low-water rock-infested creekin' runs, I spray
303 on the bottom of my inflatable kayak to make it slide better.

"In general, Latex will decay from salt/sweat."
http://www.purplepassion.com/purple-passion-hints.html

Interesting - I guess I don't have the same hobbies as you :-)

That was just from Google. Try searching "paddling fun" sometime.
Isn't it really bizarre what some people enjoy? I can't see why
anyone would dress up in a latex suit.

Hopefully you also learned something about cervical caps.

Drysuit repair and alteration experience.
 

Brian Nystrom wrote:

Good idea [to spray 303] especially on the outside, where the latex is
subjected to UV in use. On the inside, I prefer to use talc. It makes it
so easy to slip your head/hands/feet through seals you'll be amazed.

"The oil from talc powder will damage the latex."
http://www.purplepassion.com/purple-passion-hints.html