Hi Bill,

As you probably know Jim Snyder has spent his entire career trying to
get rid of paddle flutter. He even went through some iterations where
he drilled holes in the paddles! The best he was able to accomplish
was coming up with a uniquely shaped small blade (Esoterick) that
swishes through the water much more smoothly than anything else I've
experienced.

www.jimisnyder.com for the best paddle you'll ever dip in the water!
But even Jim will tell you, he's reduced flutter to a minimum but not
eliminated it.

Mothra

Mothra wrote:

As you probably know Jim Snyder has spent his entire career trying to
get rid of paddle flutter. He even went through some iterations where
he drilled holes in the paddles! The best he was able to accomplish
was coming up with a uniquely shaped small blade (Esoterick) that
swishes through the water much more smoothly than anything else I've
experienced. See www.jimisnyder.com for the best paddle you'll ever
dip in the water! But even Jim will tell you, he's reduced flutter
to a minimum but not eliminated it.

I did not know that the Esoterick was primarily designed for low flutter!
It's a really odd looking paddle.

BTW, paddling yesterday with a 60 degree feather, I noticed that my wrists
rotated not at all, neither control hand, nor left hand.

Borrowing a 45 degree paddle from a friend, I noticed that my right wrist
was bending down during each stroke. This motion is less comfortable
for me (more likely to cause tendonitis?) than bending up.

YMMV, or perhaps we should device a new acronymn,
YWRMY (your wrist rotation may vary).

On 13-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

BTW, paddling yesterday with a 60 degree feather, I noticed that my wrists
rotated not at all, neither control hand, nor left hand.

I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get the same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)

Borrowing a 45 degree paddle from a friend, I noticed that my right wrist
was bending down during each stroke. This motion is less comfortable
for me (more likely to cause tendonitis?) than bending up.

You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 13-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:


BTW, paddling yesterday with a 60 degree feather, I noticed that my wrists
rotated not at all, neither control hand, nor left hand.


I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get the same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)


Borrowing a 45 degree paddle from a friend, I noticed that my right wrist
was bending down during each stroke. This motion is less comfortable
for me (more likely to cause tendonitis?) than bending up.


You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.

It does not do that if you don't use a control hand. YOU DO NOT NEED A
CONTROL HAND WITH AN UNFEATHERED PADDLE. Using a control hand with an
unfeathered paddle is counterproductive. The only people who have the
problem you describe are those who either learned on a feathered paddle
or still use one, and cannot get past the tendency to use a control
hand. Once you give it up, the problem goes away.

Michael Daly wrote:

I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)

Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?

You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.

Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.

Bill Tuthill wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:

I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)

Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?

You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.


Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.

How difficult is it to comprehend "don't grip the paddle"? I'm at a loss
as to why people who are used to feathered paddles have such a hard time
grasping the concept, but you're not the only one. I guess old habits
die hard.

On 15-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?

Lendal with both length and feather adjustment. The length adjustment
comes with feather adjustment but I never use it. I haven't found that I
use any length but the shortest.

Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.

I know what Brian's talking about. He is correct when he says that you
don't need a control hand with an unfeathered paddle*. However, most
paddlers continue to use the control hand concept regardless of paddle
type. Hence, they are stating a myth that no wrist action is involved
for unfeathered.

When I teach paddling strokes, I specifically teach paddlers to restrict the
use of a control hand. Use it for a forward stroke as required but never
for bracing, sculling etc. In the latter cases, any control is by the hand
closest to the blade in the water. If you get used to that concept, you don't have
as much of a problem switching between feathered and unfeathered paddles.
I also show them how to set up an adjustable paddle for a forward stroke that
doesn't need any wrist action at all.

*There are paddles that don't work well with no control hand even if unfeathered.
Those with odd blades and certain bent shafts can get away from you unless
you use a bit of control - they don't tend to line up nicely with the flow over the
blade by themselves. Those would be in the minority.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 15-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:


Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?


Lendal with both length and feather adjustment. The length adjustment
comes with feather adjustment but I never use it. I haven't found that I
use any length but the shortest.


Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.


I know what Brian's talking about. He is correct when he says that you
don't need a control hand with an unfeathered paddle*. However, most
paddlers continue to use the control hand concept regardless of paddle
type. Hence, they are stating a myth that no wrist action is involved
for unfeathered.

No, YOU are starting a myth that one cannot paddle unfeathered without
flexing one's wrists. I agree that people who start out paddling
feathered have a hard time letting go of the control hand concept, but
I've done it and I know a few other people who have, so to claim that it
can't be done or isn't done is nonsense. The problem you describe is a
residual one from feathered paddling, not an innate charactertistic of
unfeathered paddling.

When I teach paddling strokes, I specifically teach paddlers to restrict the
use of a control hand. Use it for a forward stroke as required but never
for bracing, sculling etc. In the latter cases, any control is by the hand
closest to the blade in the water.

As it should be. It's one of the paradoxes of using a feathered paddle.
Maintaining a control hand makes bracing, sculling and rolling far more
difficult than necessary. I'm convinced that the "onside/offside"
concept is largely due to the use of feathered paddle and the
difficulties their asymmetry presents. While it obviously can be
overcome, many people struggle for years to do so.

If you get used to that concept, you don't have
as much of a problem switching between feathered and unfeathered paddles.
I also show them how to set up an adjustable paddle for a forward stroke that
doesn't need any wrist action at all.

That's easy, take the feather out. ;-)

*There are paddles that don't work well with no control hand even if unfeathered.
Those with odd blades and certain bent shafts can get away from you unless
you use a bit of control - they don't tend to line up nicely with the flow over the
blade by themselves. Those would be in the minority.

I don't doubt that at all, though I haven't experienced it personally.
It would seem to indicate a poor paddle design. However, if a paddle
needs control, one can simply control the paddle with both hands
alternately, rather than one. That's what a person who paddles without a
control hand instinctively does in conditions that demand firm control
of the paddle. Again, it eliminates the asymmetry of using a single
control hand.

On 16-Mar-2006, Brian Nystrom wrote:

No, YOU are starting a myth that one cannot paddle unfeathered without
flexing one's wrists.

I believe I have qualified my statements that this occurs with control hand use,
not otherwise. However, I find there are very few paddlers in this neck of the
woods that _don't_ use a control hand. The concept of control hand seems
to be ubiquitous and when I teach no-control-hand techniques, I get strange
stares from students that indicate that I am being heretical. YMMV.

Mike

You speaking of the new Lendal paddles? I have a 4 year old Riot WW
paddle.....LENDAL made the shafts for them, and it's may absolute favorite,
broke 2 werners and a sidewinder. This one is a bent shaft, very very tough!
I did recently see at a shop the new Lendal where you separately purchase
the sharf and blades, everything adjustable....I am reluctant to paddle WW
with a multi-piece paddle, so am awaiting feedback, but that concept would
seem very suited to a touring paddle.


"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 15-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?

Lendal with both length and feather adjustment. The length adjustment
comes with feather adjustment but I never use it. I haven't found that I
use any length but the shortest.

Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.

I know what Brian's talking about. He is correct when he says that you
don't need a control hand with an unfeathered paddle*. However, most
paddlers continue to use the control hand concept regardless of paddle
type. Hence, they are stating a myth that no wrist action is involved
for unfeathered.

When I teach paddling strokes, I specifically teach paddlers to restrict
the
use of a control hand. Use it for a forward stroke as required but never
for bracing, sculling etc. In the latter cases, any control is by the
hand
closest to the blade in the water. If you get used to that concept, you
don't have
as much of a problem switching between feathered and unfeathered paddles.
I also show them how to set up an adjustable paddle for a forward stroke
that
doesn't need any wrist action at all.

*There are paddles that don't work well with no control hand even if
unfeathered.
Those with odd blades and certain bent shafts can get away from you unless
you use a bit of control - they don't tend to line up nicely with the flow
over the
blade by themselves. Those would be in the minority.

Mike