Michael Daly wrote:
On 9-Mar-2006, Brian Nystrom wrote:


How so? If the paddle is allowed to seek it's own orientation, there is
no directional input from the paddle required. The paddle simpy twists
in one's hands, if necessary.


Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. If you use a control hand, I
assume you are using some grip with that hand and are not letting
the paddle find its own position. I understood you to say that if you
do not use a control hand, then you need to let the paddle loose enough
to allow it to find its own position.

That's correct. I don't use a control hand. It's not necessary with an
unfeathered paddle.

Brian Nystrom wrote:

How so? If the paddle is allowed to seek it's own orientation, there is
no directional input from the paddle required. The paddle simpy twists
in one's hands, if necessary.

Michael Daly wrote:
Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. If you use a control hand, I
assume you are using some grip with that hand and are not letting
the paddle find its own position. I understood you to say that if you
do not use a control hand, then you need to let the paddle loose enough
to allow it to find its own position.

That's correct. I don't use a control hand. It's not necessary with an
unfeathered paddle.

What magic paddle do you own that doesn't flutter? I want one.

Concerning feathering, Brian is our tireless rebutter:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/war...ssrebutter.htm

Feather angle is very personal, and probably most everybody here
already has an opinion about it, so I'll shut up now, having
played the role of Troglodyte.

"Michael Daly" wrote in
:


On 9-Mar-2006, "Rick" wrote:

Feathered paddles require a lot of wrist rotation, another reason not
to use them, especially on multi-day or extended trips. A little
tendinitis goes a long way.

Only if the feather is not selected to suit the paddling style. Large
feather angles will require large wrist rotation.

I'm going to disagree with both of you here. Specifically, that a *lot* of
wrist rotation is *required* to use a feathered paddle. While I *will*
agree that performing an offside high brace can be difficult with rotating
the control hand wrist, for a normal forward stroke I don't believe it is
required. When I first learned how to paddle I was told that when taking a
stroke on the off-side that bending the wrist backwards would produce the
proper blade angle. However, I've subsequently learned that I can get
exactly the same blade angle by bending my control arm elbow.

In the context of this thread, the question is whether sea kayaking, and
specifically the use of a feathered paddle can cause wrist injuries. I am
suggesting that, yes, repeated bending of the wrist to it's maximum range of
motion likely will cause injury, but if one drops their elbow a bit and
bends their wrist a small amount, paddling with a feathered paddle won't
inherently cause wrist injuries. That is; it's not the paddle that causes
injuries, it's how one uses it.

I also suggested that the torque a strong wind sea kayakers commonly
encounter on open water can put quite a bit on ones wrists, but as Brian
pointed out, learning how to paddle with a loose grip can alleviate a lot of
that. As Bill suggested, many paddles do flutter (even my unfeathered
Greenland paddle) but a loose grip can help there as well.

Unfeathered paddles, contrary to popular misconception, require wrist
rotation. However, it is small and opposite that required for a large
feather angles.

I use both feathered and unfeathered paddles (former a Lendal
Archipelago w/ bent shaft set to approx 30 degree feather; latter a
Greenland-style paddle). If I get into a serious wind, I switch to my
spare storm paddle with a sliding stroke. Regardless of paddle, I
don't notice the problems that most people complain about. Matching
the paddle to the technique seems to solve them.

Mike

Bill Tuthill wrote:
What magic paddle do you own that doesn't flutter? I want one.

Nothing magic about it, it's all in developing a feel for the paddle. In
my experience, fluttering is most commonly caused by overpowering the
paddle. If you develop a feel for a paddle and when to apply pressure
for maximum effect, it won't flutter. When you're really digging in and
paddling hard, you may have to grip it lightly to keep it under control,
but that's true of most paddles.

I remember the first time that I tried a GP; it sawed up and down in the
water uncontrollably. That never happens now. It's all in the technique.

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
"Michael Daly" wrote in
:


On 9-Mar-2006, "Rick" wrote:

Feathered paddles require a lot of wrist rotation, another reason not
to use them, especially on multi-day or extended trips. A little
tendinitis goes a long way.

Only if the feather is not selected to suit the paddling style. Large
feather angles will require large wrist rotation.

I'm going to disagree with both of you here. Specifically, that a *lot*
of
wrist rotation is *required* to use a feathered paddle.

I should clarify. When I say a lot of wrist rotation, I am referring to the
number of times (frequency) the wrists must be rotated, not the degree of
rotation. I began paddling feathered. Learned to paddle, as Brian said,
without a control hand. This does work (you do the push/pull with open
fingers and the paddle will remain at 90 degrees, as long as you don't push
too hard), even with a feathered paddle. I eventually gave feathered up as
being incompatible with having complete confidence in my strokes (and rolls)
if I didn't settle on a single method.

While I *will*
agree that performing an offside high brace can be difficult with rotating
the control hand wrist, for a normal forward stroke I don't believe it is
required. When I first learned how to paddle I was told that when taking
a
stroke on the off-side that bending the wrist backwards would produce the
proper blade angle. However, I've subsequently learned that I can get
exactly the same blade angle by bending my control arm elbow.


You can. The problem is that static stresses on joints when they are not
well aligned can lead to repetitive stress injuries. With an unfeathered
paddle, I find very few instances where I have to make such adjustments.

In the context of this thread, the question is whether sea kayaking, and
specifically the use of a feathered paddle can cause wrist injuries. I am
suggesting that, yes, repeated bending of the wrist to it's maximum range
of
motion likely will cause injury, but if one drops their elbow a bit and
bends their wrist a small amount, paddling with a feathered paddle won't
inherently cause wrist injuries. That is; it's not the paddle that causes
injuries, it's how one uses it.


I agree, to a point. Having done some studying of ergonomics, however, we
found that even slight wrist bends can lead to RSI's. The greater the wrist
angle, the more quickly RSI's occur, but they don't completely go away.
There is may be a wrist angle that produces zero RSI injuries, but the risk
of injury is greater due to feathering. On a long trip, I'd prefer not to
take that risk. On single-day paddles, it is unlikely paddlers will
encounter a significant injury of this type.

....stuff deleted

Unfeathered paddles, contrary to popular misconception, require wrist
rotation. However, it is small and opposite that required for a large
feather angles.


As John and Brian point out, this can be avoided. I never seem to have to
adjust my wrists when paddling unfeathered. The paddle seems to easily find
its proper orientation if I use a loose grip and let it find its face on the
water. Once the paddle begins to grab, especially in windy conditions, I may
clamp down the fingers a bit, but only in certain winds do I actually have
to grab and hold the paddle. On calm days, the shaft just floats in my
hands.

I use both feathered and unfeathered paddles (former a Lendal
Archipelago w/ bent shaft set to approx 30 degree feather; latter a
Greenland-style paddle). If I get into a serious wind, I switch to my
spare storm paddle with a sliding stroke. Regardless of paddle, I
don't notice the problems that most people complain about. Matching
the paddle to the technique seems to solve them.


Mike, I found that switching back and forth confused my muscle memory too
much for me to feel secure. Others may not have this problem, but I
certainly do.

Rick

Hi Bill,

As you probably know Jim Snyder has spent his entire career trying to
get rid of paddle flutter. He even went through some iterations where
he drilled holes in the paddles! The best he was able to accomplish
was coming up with a uniquely shaped small blade (Esoterick) that
swishes through the water much more smoothly than anything else I've
experienced.

www.jimisnyder.com for the best paddle you'll ever dip in the water!
But even Jim will tell you, he's reduced flutter to a minimum but not
eliminated it.

Mothra

Mothra wrote:

As you probably know Jim Snyder has spent his entire career trying to
get rid of paddle flutter. He even went through some iterations where
he drilled holes in the paddles! The best he was able to accomplish
was coming up with a uniquely shaped small blade (Esoterick) that
swishes through the water much more smoothly than anything else I've
experienced. See www.jimisnyder.com for the best paddle you'll ever
dip in the water! But even Jim will tell you, he's reduced flutter
to a minimum but not eliminated it.

I did not know that the Esoterick was primarily designed for low flutter!
It's a really odd looking paddle.

BTW, paddling yesterday with a 60 degree feather, I noticed that my wrists
rotated not at all, neither control hand, nor left hand.

Borrowing a 45 degree paddle from a friend, I noticed that my right wrist
was bending down during each stroke. This motion is less comfortable
for me (more likely to cause tendonitis?) than bending up.

YMMV, or perhaps we should device a new acronymn,
YWRMY (your wrist rotation may vary).

On 13-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:

BTW, paddling yesterday with a 60 degree feather, I noticed that my wrists
rotated not at all, neither control hand, nor left hand.

I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get the same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)

Borrowing a 45 degree paddle from a friend, I noticed that my right wrist
was bending down during each stroke. This motion is less comfortable
for me (more likely to cause tendonitis?) than bending up.

You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 13-Mar-2006, Bill Tuthill wrote:


BTW, paddling yesterday with a 60 degree feather, I noticed that my wrists
rotated not at all, neither control hand, nor left hand.


I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get the same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)


Borrowing a 45 degree paddle from a friend, I noticed that my right wrist
was bending down during each stroke. This motion is less comfortable
for me (more likely to cause tendonitis?) than bending up.


You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.

It does not do that if you don't use a control hand. YOU DO NOT NEED A
CONTROL HAND WITH AN UNFEATHERED PADDLE. Using a control hand with an
unfeathered paddle is counterproductive. The only people who have the
problem you describe are those who either learned on a feathered paddle
or still use one, and cannot get past the tendency to use a control
hand. Once you give it up, the problem goes away.

Michael Daly wrote:

I assume you use a fairly high stroke (steep shaft angle). I get same with
50-60 degrees with a high stroke. For a low stroke, I drop it down to about
25-30 degrees (advantage in having a fully adjustable paddle - but the reason
I don't know the exact feather angles is that I don't measure them)

Do you have a Werner touring paddle, or something else?

You have observed what I have tried to explain here recently but what
seems lost on most paddlers. Similarly, if you use a low stroke with an
unfeathered paddle, then your control hand does the same - your wrist
bends down to set the blade position on the non-control side.

Right. That makes sense. I believe Brian Nystrom has to post a movie
on the web (or at least still-picture series) before I can comprehend
what he's talking about here.