E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresorts to this.............
 

"trainfan1" wrote in message
...
K. Smith wrote:
trainfan1 wrote:

K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far)
you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made
the claimed 250HP (+),



On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...


The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their
motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will
always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine
was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's

was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.



BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...


I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant
if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but
when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to
still sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are
simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple
variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world
leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super
priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown
at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it
takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or
bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training
BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are
aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the
dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the
bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover
the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted
30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to
them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price
maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines
for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop
selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam &
nobody will say anything??



A name change doesn't clear the slate,



It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...


It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements"
are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough
that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??

Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots
in the chamber.


How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???

Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston
centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder
temperatures reducing detonation.

Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is?



How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??

Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieselingsyndrome, reducing detonation.

I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be
reliable?


How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???

It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the
whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors
should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion,
and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain
stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion.
This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is this
really a significant factor?
And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do
sort of begs the question of what they actually do.

How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??

This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT
all day long up on a jack plate...

Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates.
And they love WOT.


The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?


Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del

E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortsto this.............
 

Del Cecchi wrote:

"trainfan1" wrote in message
...

K. Smith wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:


K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far)
you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made
the claimed 250HP (+),



On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...


The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their
motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will
always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine
was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's


was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.



BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...


I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant
if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but
when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to
still sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are
simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple
variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world
leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super
priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown
at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it
takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or
bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training
BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are
aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the
dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the
bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover
the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted
30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to
them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price
maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines
for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop
selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam &
nobody will say anything??


A name change doesn't clear the slate,



It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably
don't...


It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements"
are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough
that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??

Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots
in the chamber.


How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???

Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston
centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder
temperatures reducing detonation.


Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is?

No.

Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more
readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for even
more transfer.




How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??

Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation.


I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be
reliable?

Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it.



How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???

It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the
whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors
should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion,
and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain
stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion.
This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is this
really a significant factor?

In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system.

And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do
sort of begs the question of what they actually do.

Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as
there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2
stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must be
able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach vapor,
but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What E-Tec
is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with overlapping
strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little fuel as
possible. The chamber design is very critical.


How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??

This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT
all day long up on a jack plate...


Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates.
And they love WOT.

I just made that up.


The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?



Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del


I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines
do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings, which
did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use.

E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresorts to this.............
 

"trainfan1" wrote in message
et...
Del Cecchi wrote:

"trainfan1" wrote in message
...

K. Smith wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:


K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far)
you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made
the claimed 250HP (+),



On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...


The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their
motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will
always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine
was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's


was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.



BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...


I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant
if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but
when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying
to still sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money
going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are
simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No
multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super
chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that
with these super priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being
thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do
whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the
dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate,
subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even
dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the
Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day
long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers
tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the
dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were
never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for
resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective
ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said
they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam &
nobody will say anything??


A name change doesn't clear the slate,



It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you
probably don't...


It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements"
are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough
that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??

Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot
spots in the chamber.


How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???

Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston
centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder
temperatures reducing detonation.


Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is?

No.

Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more
readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for even
more transfer.

So this is some alloy significantly different from the aluminum alloys
used for conventional pistons?




How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??

Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation.


I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be
reliable?

Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it.
Are you saying that this special oil is necessary to achieve reliability
in etec?




How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???

It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of
the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the
injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good
combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain
stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion.
This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is
this really a significant factor?

In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system.

OK, here is a calculation. Air has a specific heat of 723 J/kg-degree,
and gasoline has a latent heat of vaporization of 300kJ/kg. So at 15 to
1 you get 20kJ or about 30 degrees celsius, less at leaner mixtures.
That about right? Is that really significant in preventing detonation?
Doesn't seem like much help in cooling the motor to lower the temp by 30
degrees.

And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do
sort of begs the question of what they actually do.

Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as
there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2
stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must
be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach
vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What
E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with
overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little
fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical.

The above is sort of a truism, eh? Droplet size shouldn't matter in heat
absorbtion because it all evaporates as it burns, right? The trick is to
get it to evaporate so it can be burned at the right time.

How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??

This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT
all day long up on a jack plate...


Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack
plates. And they love WOT.

I just made that up.

Oh. I have heard that some of the etec motors were having lower unit
problems, not that that would have anything that I can see to do with
the fuel induction system .


The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?



Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del


I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines
do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings,
which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use.


Yes, but there was a significant failure rate among at least the 150/175
Fichts. Is more rugged construction, (presumably) higher pressure
injection, and new combustion chamber/piston shapes sufficient to resolve
them?

I have been curious for some time about why the 150/175 was said to have
many more problems than the big blocks. Do you have a theory? Or even
facts?

del

E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortstothis.............
 

trainfan1 wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote:

"trainfan1" wrote in message
...

K. Smith wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:


K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far)
you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc
made the claimed 250HP (+),




On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...



The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their
motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will
always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine
was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's


was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.




BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...



I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant
if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did,
but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are
trying to still sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra
money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines
which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system???
No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super
chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that
with these super priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being
thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do
whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the
dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate,
subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not
even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to
flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it
all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the
dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found
the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they
were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them
for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known
defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear
they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates
etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam &
nobody will say anything??


A name change doesn't clear the slate,




It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you
probably don't...



It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements"
are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough
that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??


Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot
spots in the chamber.


How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???


Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot
piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens
cylinder temperatures reducing detonation.



Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is?


No.

Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more
readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for even
more transfer.


There is an added problem here Rob, there has always been a well
understood problem with crankcase transferred 2 strokes of heat getting
carried away from the piston. No matter what alloy is used the heat has
to go somewhere & the only place that's even remotely cool is the bore,
& the only path for the heat is through the rings. (that's where you
find the baked oil confirming way way too hot a piston)

The age old problem with trying to make big 2 strokes work is that as
the bore increases so the piston surface area exposed to the burn
increases by the square, but the effective length of the rings only
increases linearly. So the rings have to carry more heat into the bore
with less unit contact area. Usually it becomes a hiding to nothing sort
of thing, you reduce the specific output so the heat load through the
rings stays managable (detune) or you use more rings. It's pretty much
accepted that the upper limit for safe 2 strokes even when not being run
lean, is 500cc per cyl.

High specific output 2 strokes can't even get there ie. racing motor
bikes tiny bores but lots of them, successful high specific output 2
stroke OBs?? the early Mercs again no big bores but lots of small pistons.

Now E-Tec goes above the "accepted safe" barrier & nobody in the
industry even asks, it really is just super markup marketing gone
mad........ again.

I still suggest their engines are experimental on every count. Like
Ficht; experimental but still being marketed & it seems at hugely
inflated dealer padding prices??




How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??


Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation.



I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be
reliable?


Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it.

This really is a subject that needs clarification Rob, with the
"ordinary" tcw3 does the ECU flow more or less?? does the ECU use
different mixture/spark profiles???

I guess what I'm just too delicate & shy to ask is;

Do they use more oil??? Do they effectively detune the E-Tecs if you
elect to run them on standard warranty oil??? & if so shouldn't that be
disclosed in the advertising???

If there's no downside to using the standard "recommended" oil why do
the forums seem to make an issue when an E-Tec blows? The first
rejoinder from the ever hovering E-Tec dealer protection squads is to
claim the owner almost deserves it, because they didn't pay extra for
the dealer only "special" oil??? Why would anyone use the special oil??
what's your pitch for that?? because it could be very enlightening (ah
enlightenment those were the days, not that I'm unhappy with wm:-))



How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???


It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of
the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the
injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good
combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain
stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion.
This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is
this really a significant factor?


In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system.

And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do
sort of begs the question of what they actually do.


Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as
there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2
stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must be
able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach vapor,
but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What E-Tec
is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with overlapping
strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little fuel as
possible. The chamber design is very critical.



How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??


This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??


Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT
all day long up on a jack plate...



Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack
plates. And they love WOT.


I just made that up.



The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???


You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?



Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del


I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines
do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings, which
did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use.

I accept they work or at least a goodly majority, but even though Ficht
had a 1 in 5 failure rate that still leaves 4 thousand out of 5 thousand
still going as you say. They must have flogged lots because they ****ed
1.3 Billion US against the wall doing it:-) To the boaters it doesn't
mean much because any boat with a ficht attached is worthless on the
used market, we've even had new complete boats sold here at below
secondhand prices just because they had fichts attached.

Anyway a good discussion & thanks as always.

K

E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortstothis.............
 

K. Smith wrote:
trainfan1 wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote:

"trainfan1" wrote in message
...

K. Smith wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:


K. Smith wrote:


That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your
"claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so
far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a
Merc made the claimed 250HP (+),




On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor...



The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping
their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers
will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb
engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP.


a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's


was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque.




BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm...



I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been
relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the
class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the
dealers are trying to still sell no matter what???

Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the
competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra
money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines
which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector
system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per
cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none
of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors.

The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being
thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do
whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way
the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate,
subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not
even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to
flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it
all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when
the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour
found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks &
that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd
refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were
flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even
made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got
bigger rebates etc).

Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam &
nobody will say anything??


A name change doesn't clear the slate,




It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you
probably don't...



It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed
"improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold
together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their
super markup??.

How does a treated bore stop detonation??


Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot
spots in the chamber.


How do high melting point pistons stop detonation???


Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot
piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens
cylinder temperatures reducing detonation.



Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is?


No.

Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more
readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for
even more transfer.


There is an added problem here Rob, there has always been a well
understood problem with crankcase transferred 2 strokes of heat getting
carried away from the piston. No matter what alloy is used the heat has
to go somewhere & the only place that's even remotely cool is the bore,
& the only path for the heat is through the rings. (that's where you
find the baked oil confirming way way too hot a piston)

The age old problem with trying to make big 2 strokes work is that as
the bore increases so the piston surface area exposed to the burn
increases by the square, but the effective length of the rings only
increases linearly. So the rings have to carry more heat into the bore
with less unit contact area. Usually it becomes a hiding to nothing sort
of thing, you reduce the specific output so the heat load through the
rings stays managable (detune) or you use more rings. It's pretty much
accepted that the upper limit for safe 2 strokes even when not being run
lean, is 500cc per cyl.

High specific output 2 strokes can't even get there ie. racing motor
bikes tiny bores but lots of them, successful high specific output 2
stroke OBs?? the early Mercs again no big bores but lots of small pistons.

Now E-Tec goes above the "accepted safe" barrier & nobody in the
industry even asks, it really is just super markup marketing gone
mad........ again.

I still suggest their engines are experimental on every count. Like
Ficht; experimental but still being marketed & it seems at hugely
inflated dealer padding prices??




How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation??


Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting
combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation.



I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be
reliable?


Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it.

This really is a subject that needs clarification Rob, with the
"ordinary" tcw3 does the ECU flow more or less?? does the ECU use
different mixture/spark profiles???

I guess what I'm just too delicate & shy to ask is;

Do they use more oil??? Do they effectively detune the E-Tecs if you
elect to run them on standard warranty oil??? & if so shouldn't that be
disclosed in the advertising???

If there's no downside to using the standard "recommended" oil why do
the forums seem to make an issue when an E-Tec blows? The first
rejoinder from the ever hovering E-Tec dealer protection squads is to
claim the owner almost deserves it, because they didn't pay extra for
the dealer only "special" oil??? Why would anyone use the special oil??
what's your pitch for that?? because it could be very enlightening (ah
enlightenment those were the days, not that I'm unhappy with wm:-))



How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough
atomisation to stop detonation???


It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation,
cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect
flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector
system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of
the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the
injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good
combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the
compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to
attain stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete
combustion. This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks
- the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling
process too.

I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is
this really a significant factor?


In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system.

And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do
sort of begs the question of what they actually do.


Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as
there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A
2 stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector
must be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to
approach vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of
combustion. What E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses
associated with overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while
using as little fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical.



How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??


This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.

How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??


Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT
all day long up on a jack plate...



Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack
plates. And they love WOT.


I just made that up.



The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a
lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other
brands???


You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?



Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del


I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the
engines do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC
offerings, which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands
still in use.

I accept they work or at least a goodly majority, but even though Ficht
had a 1 in 5 failure rate that still leaves 4 thousand out of 5 thousand
still going as you say. They must have flogged lots because they ****ed
1.3 Billion US against the wall doing it:-) To the boaters it doesn't
mean much because any boat with a ficht attached is worthless on the
used market, we've even had new complete boats sold here at below
secondhand prices just because they had fichts attached.

Anyway a good discussion & thanks as always.

K



Karen,
Do you have any proof that the markup and rebate on Fichts and Etec are
any different than other marine engines?

--
Reggie

"That's my story and I am sticking to it."

E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortsto this.............
 

trainfan1 wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote:



So this is some alloy significantly different from the aluminum alloys
used for conventional pistons?


Not significantly, but to be labeled "high melting point" they'd better
be made to withstand more.




Are you saying that this special oil is necessary to achieve
reliability in etec?


I do not believe this is a requirement, only if you want to commit to
the lower volume setting / longer refill intervals.






OK, here is a calculation. Air has a specific heat of 723
J/kg-degree, and gasoline has a latent heat of vaporization of
300kJ/kg. So at 15 to 1 you get 20kJ or about 30 degrees celsius,
less at leaner mixtures. That about right? Is that really significant
in preventing detonation? Doesn't seem like much help in cooling the
motor to lower the temp by 30 degrees.


The heat of vaporization is not the only critical issue. A two stroke
engine by design has to pass some unburned fuel, as it also must put up
with some exhaust gases in with the new (a trick used in 4 strokes to
lower the combustion temp & oxides of nitrogen for emissions compliance).

Cant pass unburned fuel or EPA and California will have your hide.

2 strokes have always been run richer than "stoichiometricly" required
to provide cooling via unburned fuel.

Again, it's an amazing balancing act that the 2 stroke manufacturers are
attempting in keeping power up, economy up, longevity up, & weight &
failures down. Fast acting processors & high pressure injection systems
are the only way to do it. BRP is in this for the long run.

I thought that unburned hydrocarbons was no longer allowed to any
significant degree. So if you run etec richer than stoiciometric then
you fail epa. Isn't that correct?

Optimax is not high pressure injection. So high pressure injection is
not Only Way. In fact we don't know for sure it is even one way.


And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should*
do sort of begs the question of what they actually do.


Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as
there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A
2 stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector
must be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to
approach vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of
combustion. What E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses
associated with overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while
using as little fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical.

The above is sort of a truism, eh? Droplet size shouldn't matter in
heat absorbtion because it all evaporates as it burns, right?


Not in a 2 stroke.

So in an etec does it evaporate and burn? I'm not talking about my
dirty merc.

The trick is to get it to evaporate so it can be burned at the right
time.


Only the part you want burned for power...
Again, doesn't it all have to burn? Or does some burn in the exhaust
system?
Just thought of that possibility.


How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??


This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.


How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??


Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run
WOT all day long up on a jack plate...



Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack
plates. And they love WOT.


I just made that up.



Oh. I have heard that some of the etec motors were having lower unit
problems, not that that would have anything that I can see to do with
the fuel induction system .


I agree on that. I just did not see the correlation, unless the E-Tecs,
once broken in, are putting out more than they are rated for or BRP got
poor leg parts from their supplier.

Or they screwed up the design somehow. Bass and Walleye boats discussed
it some in the shootout article.



The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on
poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable
lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a
lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other
brands???


You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?



Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del



I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the
engines do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC
offerings, which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands
still in use.



Yes, but there was a significant failure rate among at least the
150/175 Fichts. Is more rugged construction, (presumably) higher
pressure injection, and new combustion chamber/piston shapes
sufficient to resolve them?


We'll have to see. BRP gives you a "free ride" for 3 years.

OMC did too, until they didn't.


I have been curious for some time about why the 150/175 was said to
have many more problems than the big blocks. Do you have a theory?
Or even facts?


No facts, but the differences between similar architecture V's are
several when you are dealing w/ different bores/strokes (I'm not sure
which spacing is shared between them) and then the injector volume must
be changed too, it's not like the carby days where you could change the
HP w/ a throttle bore change & an exhaust tuner.

Rob


--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortsto this.............
 

Del Cecchi wrote:



So this is some alloy significantly different from the aluminum alloys
used for conventional pistons?

Not significantly, but to be labeled "high melting point" they'd better
be made to withstand more.




Are you saying that this special oil is necessary to achieve reliability
in etec?

I do not believe this is a requirement, only if you want to commit to
the lower volume setting / longer refill intervals.





OK, here is a calculation. Air has a specific heat of 723 J/kg-degree,
and gasoline has a latent heat of vaporization of 300kJ/kg. So at 15 to
1 you get 20kJ or about 30 degrees celsius, less at leaner mixtures.
That about right? Is that really significant in preventing detonation?
Doesn't seem like much help in cooling the motor to lower the temp by 30
degrees.

The heat of vaporization is not the only critical issue. A two stroke
engine by design has to pass some unburned fuel, as it also must put up
with some exhaust gases in with the new (a trick used in 4 strokes to
lower the combustion temp & oxides of nitrogen for emissions compliance).

2 strokes have always been run richer than "stoichiometricly" required
to provide cooling via unburned fuel.

Again, it's an amazing balancing act that the 2 stroke manufacturers are
attempting in keeping power up, economy up, longevity up, & weight &
failures down. Fast acting processors & high pressure injection systems
are the only way to do it. BRP is in this for the long run.

And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do
sort of begs the question of what they actually do.

Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as
there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2
stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must
be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach
vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What
E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with
overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little
fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical.

The above is sort of a truism, eh? Droplet size shouldn't matter in heat
absorbtion because it all evaporates as it burns, right?

Not in a 2 stroke.

The trick is to
get it to evaporate so it can be burned at the right time.

Only the part you want burned for power...

How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop
detonation??

This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean
charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too.

it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation.


How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation??

Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT
all day long up on a jack plate...


Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack
plates. And they love WOT.

I just made that up.


Oh. I have heard that some of the etec motors were having lower unit
problems, not that that would have anything that I can see to do with
the fuel induction system .

I agree on that. I just did not see the correlation, unless the E-Tecs,
once broken in, are putting out more than they are rated for or BRP got
poor leg parts from their supplier.



The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3
emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the
inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly
atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication.

Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative
deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands???

You REALLY don't know me...

but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't
understand?



Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better.

del



I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines
do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings,
which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use.



Yes, but there was a significant failure rate among at least the 150/175
Fichts. Is more rugged construction, (presumably) higher pressure
injection, and new combustion chamber/piston shapes sufficient to resolve
them?

We'll have to see. BRP gives you a "free ride" for 3 years.

I have been curious for some time about why the 150/175 was said to have
many more problems than the big blocks. Do you have a theory? Or even
facts?

No facts, but the differences between similar architecture V's are
several when you are dealing w/ different bores/strokes (I'm not sure
which spacing is shared between them) and then the injector volume must
be changed too, it's not like the carby days where you could change the
HP w/ a throttle bore change & an exhaust tuner.

Rob