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E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruiker resortsto this.............
Twin 250 E-TEC - 30' SeaCraft 19" Rebel - 3 blade props RPM MPH GPH MPG 500 2.2 0.36 6.0 1000 5.7 1.46 3.9 1500 7.9 2.97 2.6 2000 9.0 5.98 1.5 2500 14.7 12.22 1.2 3000 21.4 14.20 1.5 3500 29.0 17.19 1.7 4000 35.3 20.70 1.7 4500 41.0 24.45 1.7 5000 46.2 31.59 1.5 5400 48.7 37.84 1.3 30' SeaCraft??? Is there such a thing??? Oh well an ad is an ad I guess:-). Here is the proof positive the dealer who posted this deceptive BS will say &/or do most anything to make a sale (although a sail would be much more reliable than an E-Tec even in the doldrums) At 5400 (305rpm below their dealer claims) just what HP would a 250 E-Tec be actually making??? a simple bit of math would indicate as low as 213-220HP!!! nothing even like 250HP (per engine 18.93 gph /0.0888gph per HP = 213HP) Any of you actual boat owners (that leaves liar Krause & hangers on out) know that for ANY 2 stroke OB(s) to be putting out agg. 500HP on 37gph is just fairy tale stuff. The E-Tec dealers have set up an fake page to spruik untruths hoping they won't get sued & even there, which is chock a block full of BS!!! they claim just ONE 250HP E-Tec uses over 22 gph, so for 2 X 250HP E-Tecs it's an absolute minimum of 44-45 gph. This is a paste of the claims for just ONE 250HP E-Tec; NB:they're not even game enough to advertise under their own names with this crap & runaway comes along claiming 37gph FOR 2 x 250HP E-Tecs. No seriously what a BS'ter!!!just how stupid does he think you really are???:-) Are you so non boater or scared you remain pathetically silent?? this is exactly how they got away with the Ficht deception. RPM MPH GPH MPG RANGE 500 2.6 0.18 14.6 786 1000 4.9 0.77 6.3 342 1500 6.9 1.61 4.3 232 2000 8.3 3.92 2.1 114 2500 10.2 6.18 1.6 89 3000 19.5 7.06 2.8 149 3500 27.4 7.76 3.5 191 4000 33.4 10.21 3.3 177 4500 38.7 13.12 3.0 159 5000 43.5 17.17 2.5 137 5500 48.6 20.09 2.4 131 5705 50.2 22.21 2.3 122 (Even the latest high tech. Cat diesels need 26 gph to make 510HP & they're nothing like a glorified whipper snipper engine) This dealer particularly relies upon there being enough silly idiots &/or non boater gullible in the NG to even ask; but ask & see what answers they give, always a hoot:-). This one has NG priors for running away when the Fichts fell in a table drain, leaving all & any he had deceived to wonder just what sort of person he is, I already knew:-). Either the dealers & this one in particular, are getting Ficht/E-Tec desperate already (as they should be) or the engines don't make anywhere near the HP they claim??? All other "independent" tests show the E-Tecs are fuel hungry at power (don't worry about their deceptive claims, the so called savings are at idle/low under 2000rpm power, when they're dangerously lean 35-40 to 1!! so lean a single firing of the plug can't be sure of lighting it). I better warn you the very same was tried in the marketing of Ficht gee even by the very same people!!!:-) K |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruiker resorts to this.............
"K. Smith" wrote in message ... Here is the proof positive the dealer who posted this deceptive BS will say &/or do most anything to make a sale At 5400 (305rpm below their dealer claims) just what HP would a 250 E-Tec be actually making??? a simple bit of math would indicate as low as 213-220HP!!! nothing even like 250HP (per engine 18.93 gph /0.0888gph per HP = 213HP) OK, Ms. Smith, Once again you are showing off your ignorance of E-TEC motors and (with your own quote) "Here is the proof positive". The Evinrude E-TEC is rated at 250hp at 5150 rpm so at 5400 rpm it is within its operating range and well below the redline of 5800 rpm. Since you are the one demanding "proof" on everything, yet NEVER give any for your "claims", just click on Evinrude's website and read the specifications page. I'll even hold your hand and give you the link: http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Engine...ations/250.V6/ The above link is for the US website, for Australia, you can click on the BRP International website in English and once again, you will see that you were wrong about the E-TEC specs: http://www.brp.com/en/Products/Evinr...ductID=ETEC250 I don't mind discussions and debates, but I prefer to converse with someone who is at least familiar with a subject and who doesn't run off at the mouth making erroneous and unsubstantiated claims. Bill Grannis service manager .. |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresorts to this.............
Billgran wrote:
"K. Smith" wrote in message ... Here is the proof positive the dealer who posted this deceptive BS will say &/or do most anything to make a sale At 5400 (305rpm below their dealer claims) just what HP would a 250 E-Tec be actually making??? a simple bit of math would indicate as low as 213-220HP!!! nothing even like 250HP (per engine 18.93 gph /0.0888gph per HP = 213HP) OK, Ms. Smith, Once again you are showing off your ignorance of E-TEC motors and (with your own quote) "Here is the proof positive". The Evinrude E-TEC is rated at 250hp at 5150 rpm so at 5400 rpm it is within its operating range and well below the redline of 5800 rpm. Since you are the one demanding "proof" on everything, yet NEVER give any for your "claims", just click on Evinrude's website and read the specifications page. I'll even hold your hand and give you the link: http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Engine...ations/250.V6/ The above link is for the US website, for Australia, you can click on the BRP International website in English and once again, you will see that you were wrong about the E-TEC specs: http://www.brp.com/en/Products/Evinr...ductID=ETEC250 I don't mind discussions and debates, but I prefer to converse with someone who is at least familiar with a subject and who doesn't run off at the mouth making erroneous and unsubstantiated claims. Bill Grannis service manager . So runaway you don't withdraw or modify your claim with BS fuel use chart attached, that 2 X 250HP E-Tecs at max power only use 37.84 gph or 18.92 gph for each engine??? This is your natural justice opportunity to withdraw or modify it as just being more of your false marketing BS. If you're going to stick with it I suggest you find some independent corroboration pronto because over this US summer you'll be needing it in at least this NG:-) Sorry Runaway it's you that doesn't "know" again you just quote the Co marketing line & as usual give more of your marketing deceptions as substantiation of your marketing deceptions. Links to just more of your spruiking Co. claims don't mean a thing, your marketing claims about fuel consumption are exactly what I'm challenging & in doing so I raise the issue that if your fuel consumption claims are correct then you must be well down on HP???. At least one "independent" test has found your Co wanting when asked to pony up with the claimed HP distant 3rd behind competition???. That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. A name change doesn't clear the slate, doesn't wipe out previous failures, doesn't mean your previous failed independent fuel consumption & HP tests just go away, it's you who is marketing; you need to firstly address the "issues" if even possible:-) Your fuel consumption claims when "independently" tested show they use significantly "more" fuel than the figures you use in your advertising, & it seems 10-15% more than the other 2 or 4 stroke competition. Again as I showed in pasted sections you've again used a deceptive set of figures, which suited your marketing purposes where you claimed 2 X 250HP E-Tecs at max power only use 18.92 gph each to make 250HP??? when even your BS dealers annon site admits they use 22.21 gph to make "maybe" 250HP (NB: I in no manner accept even that figure!! I say "we" need to see an independent test not marketing BS from your mob) Do you have one independent test that shows your 250HP placarded engine can make 250HP??? & then do it on 18.92 gph of fuel??? Anything at all???? Before you go ballistic I accept it's not illegal to overstate OB HP figures (I'm not so sure it's "legal to give false fuel consumption claims) but in such high powered engines it's certainly a relevant matter. So at this stage I better put you on notice I guess that so far I say your fuel consumption claim for the E-Tec 250 is 3.29 gph below the as yet not independently confirmed annon. dealer site claim??? or say the current Co claim is over 17% higher???? Thanks for your help:-) K |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresorts to this.............
K. Smith wrote:
That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... Rob |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortsto this.............
trainfan1 wrote:
K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? K Rob |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresorts to this.............
So, K.... what's a poor boater to do? Per yr message all dealers that sell
Evinrudes are crooked and liars and don't deserve our business. How about the others? Don't they all commit the same sins of overstating the value and reliability of the stuff they sell? In my experience dealers try to find out what you want and sometimes even what you need. Then they try to find out what you are capable of buying. If possible, they then try to match you to a package that you want, need, and can buy. Do they hype the products they sell? Of course they do. They'd like to eat and support a family. Is that bad? Perhaps most dealers are not as well informed as you and lack your technical expertise and therefore sell unsatisfactory goods to customers. Or maybe they're just rats who seek to screw everyone they sell to. After all, that's a swell way to stay in business over the long haul, no? So, K.... what outboards do you feel are satisfatory performers with great reliability. Maybe that new supercharged four stroke is the one. Respectful regards, Butch "K. Smith" wrote in message ... trainfan1 wrote: K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? K Rob |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresorts to this.............
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 00:20:47 GMT, "Butch Davis" wrote: Perhaps most dealers are not as well informed as you and lack your technical expertise You are assuming Mrs. Dingo Bait actually has any technical expertise. Trust me - she doesn't. We do know that dealers will sell what they have, emphasizing the good points and ignoring the bad points. Chevy dealers were flogging the Vega, right up until they weren't. "what corrosion? They just were sloppy and didn't change the antifreeze", then the Olds dealers were flogging the Olds Diesel... Until they weren't. Caddy dealers were flogging the 4-6-8 until the recall made them all just 8. Honda touted the 450 twin with the torsion bar valve springs. That really took over the industry. Dealers sell stuff. It is what they do. It isn't their job to do your homework or protect you from yourself. And if there is a spiff or allowance for selling a particular thing, the salespeople will try harder to sell the item that puts more money in their pocket. Seen the Schwab commercials? Some Brokers churn accounts and recommend inappropriate investments if it is in their best interest. Boat salesdroids sell what makes them money. And if you ask them about problems, butter wouldn't melt in their mouths. Particularily those large volume places. Small town dealers less so, at least with locals. Screw a few locals and life gets hard. How naive are you? You don't seem like one that just fell off the turnip truck. Karen just lets normal dealer behavior make her angry. To me it is just a fact of life. I just had a dealer telling me how strong the 90 hp were and "outpulled carb'd 115s" " Hi Dinger, I am an Evinrude dealer, so I am not sure if you will buy what I have to say or not, but here goes. The power I have seen from the E-TECs in comparison to any of the other OMC or BRP product lines is inpressive. The Direct Injection models did come close, but still don't put out like the E-TEC. I put out 2 of the 90 E-TECs last summer and they easily outperformed the carbed 115 Johnson/Evinrude motors. They pulled much harder, were much quieter and used about half of the fuel. They are a phenominal motors and most of the hype about them is true. I think that you will be pleasently surprised." http://www.fishingminnesota.com/foru...b=5&o=&fpart=1 (for the folks that want citations) As to the merit of etec, Bombadier family seems to have bet the company on it. We shall see what happens over the next few years. Mercury seems to have concluded that 4strokes are the wave of the future. Likewise Suzuki. It is hard to tell what Yamaha is doing. So Bombadier is pretty much standing alone, although Merc hasn't officially killed off future Optimax development. If my carbed motor dies, I think the replacement will be a 4stoke. del |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortsto this.............
K. Smith wrote:
trainfan1 wrote: K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots in the chamber. How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder temperatures reducing detonation. How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting combustion/dieselingsyndrome, reducing detonation. How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation, cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion. This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all day long up on a jack plate... The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? You REALLY don't know me... but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't understand? Rob K Rob |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortstothis.............
trainfan1 wrote:
K. Smith wrote: trainfan1 wrote: K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots in the chamber. I disagree Rob in petrol engines the burn is all done & finished before the piston leaves TDC so the "chamber" has effectively no "bore" in play. As for the coating there is no indication it's better at heat transfer from the rings (hopefully the only heat bridge available). It would seem that the Ficht melted pistons & scored bores are behind this more faulty ficht thinking. They are treating the symptoms after detonation damage & not the cause, which is the detonation itself. How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder temperatures reducing detonation. Well that's not what NASA say about their alloy & not what Bomb say all the time they highlight the new alloy's ability to withstand very high temps. Again the symptom is melted pistons so they think making them less likely to melt will help, not so. A proper petrol mixture will auto ignite at about 260C which is well below the danger temp for most ordinary aluminium alloys, that's why every single big engine maker, except yours, uses it. If the chamber has any part of it above around 260C then the fuel mix will auto ignite which then quickly degenerates into full on uncontrolled detonation. So again my position is they're just trying to make it strong enough to hang together through that detonation period. I suspect some more will but enough won't that it's a dead technology. How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting combustion/dieselingsyndrome, reducing detonation. Again you seem to be admitted excessive heat being present?? & that's the issue. Once the piston is overly hot detonation is a consequence. The baked oil they were finding behind the rings isn't the cause of the failures it's just another symptom of an over hot piston which when suddenly fed full mixture lapses into full detonation. How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation, cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. When in lean mode there is no flame travel & this is bomb's claim. They admit the mixture is so lean it won't ignite unless directed at the continuously firing plug. (almost so; the pin stops a direct hit). The mixtures are so lean in any other situation they just wouldn't ignite (35 or 40 to 1???? when they came out they spruiked 40-1 till people started telling them that's not possible to safely ignite & as we all now know; it wasn't) The injector system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion. This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. The lean charge as you call it is so lean there is no cooling at all, lean mixtures have always blown engines by slowing the flame front way down, this results in heat buildup in the chamber. No detonation when lean there isn't enough fuel to do it, but once the engine tries to revert back to full mixture mode (say after 2000rpm) then the hot chamber (piston mainly because it's totally uncooled in any manner) allows some autoignition which quickly builds more heat then that particular cyl lapses into full detonation & the game is over. How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. Lean mixtures can make exhaust temps cooler because there is less fuel to burn but the burn is so slow that the chamber walls get hot. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all day long up on a jack plate... Or again it's treating the symptoms the OMC gearcases were always not as good as the rest but the detonation thumping from Ficht smashed them even more, so again the "fix" is not to deal with the detonation but make the gearcase bigger?:-) If they were not seriously trying to deceive boaters again it would be genuinely funny:-) The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? You REALLY don't know me... but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't understand? I'm happy to have my record on the understanding of ficht stacked against any other "published" material you can find, this NG should also be proud because despite it being a long & sometimes messy process we predicted ficht failure before there was enough of them failing that the dealers could no longer cover it up. Those dealers abused us for even discussing the Ficht & of course the usual non boaters like Kruase etc did their usual dealer groupy acts. Now you'll find others explaining the risks of running lean at power & I'm glad of it. K Rob K Rob |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortsto this.............
Butch Davis wrote:
So, K.... what's a poor boater to do? Per yr message all dealers that sell Evinrudes are crooked and liars and don't deserve our business. How about the others? Don't they all commit the same sins of overstating the value and reliability of the stuff they sell? In my experience dealers try to find out what you want and sometimes even what you need. Then they try to find out what you are capable of buying. If possible, they then try to match you to a package that you want, need, and can buy. Do they hype the products they sell? Of course they do. They'd like to eat and support a family. Is that bad? Perhaps most dealers are not as well informed as you and lack your technical expertise and therefore sell unsatisfactory goods to customers. Or maybe they're just rats who seek to screw everyone they sell to. After all, that's a swell way to stay in business over the long haul, no? So, K.... what outboards do you feel are satisfatory performers with great reliability. Maybe that new supercharged four stroke is the one. Respectful regards, Butch Hi Butch, There's not much you can do to avoid them they're a retail price maintenance scam of the first order. You cannot buy the engines other than through an "authorised" dealer & the dealers are closely controlled by the manufacturer/supplier. Most of the dealers' profit comes from post sale rebates, plans, meetings display payments, rewards, etc etc all discretionary & all post retail. This way if any one dealer did really start to sell quantities of engines either below the dealer invoice (reliant upon still getting rebates etc later) or say out of area or ................. then the other dealers would soon complain & that dealer would find his rebates getting clipped. The aggregate of returns on big ticket motors is in the realm of 17.5 to 22% unless of course we now know that had been upped to 30% to sell Ficht. This is for engines they don't even have to pay for!!! the Manufacturer "organises" the finance as part of the kickbacks (that way the manufacturer gets instant cash flow by merely delivering the engines out the door. You as a punter get no chance to avoid a corrupt market where a two stroke over grown whipper snipper engine with a right angle drive attached costs more than a medium sized car!!! The dealers are the front line of this & need to be named as such. Again you correctly point out you can't avoid them but equally you shouldn't just bend over. You will remember when Ficht finally dragged OMC under all the previously full of it dealers in this NG just ran away!!!! They really did!!! Runaway william even tried denying it & I had to post hist history, truly a dealer to the core say or do anything to make a sale to the gullible. The only reason runaway is back is he's trying to sell more of the same & he still doesn't even admit the first run was a total failure. I know you object to my position & I even respect that but you need to offer actual technical comment if you have some & we can debate it. This time I will not be intimidated by the same BS spreading dealers & this time anyone who wants to find E-Tec failures will be able to on the simplest of searches at our public no spam NG. K "K. Smith" wrote in message ... trainfan1 wrote: K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? K Rob |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresorts to this.............
"trainfan1" wrote in message ... K. Smith wrote: trainfan1 wrote: K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots in the chamber. How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder temperatures reducing detonation. Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is? How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting combustion/dieselingsyndrome, reducing detonation. I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be reliable? How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation, cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion. This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is this really a significant factor? And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do sort of begs the question of what they actually do. How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all day long up on a jack plate... Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates. And they love WOT. The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? You REALLY don't know me... but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't understand? Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better. del |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortsto this.............
Del Cecchi wrote:
"trainfan1" wrote in message ... K. Smith wrote: trainfan1 wrote: K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots in the chamber. How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder temperatures reducing detonation. Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is? No. Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for even more transfer. How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation. I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be reliable? Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it. How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation, cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion. This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is this really a significant factor? In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system. And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do sort of begs the question of what they actually do. Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2 stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical. How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all day long up on a jack plate... Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates. And they love WOT. I just made that up. The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? You REALLY don't know me... but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't understand? Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better. del I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings, which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use. |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresorts to this.............
"trainfan1" wrote in message et... Del Cecchi wrote: "trainfan1" wrote in message ... K. Smith wrote: trainfan1 wrote: K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots in the chamber. How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder temperatures reducing detonation. Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is? No. Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for even more transfer. So this is some alloy significantly different from the aluminum alloys used for conventional pistons? How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation. I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be reliable? Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it. Are you saying that this special oil is necessary to achieve reliability in etec? How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation, cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion. This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is this really a significant factor? In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system. OK, here is a calculation. Air has a specific heat of 723 J/kg-degree, and gasoline has a latent heat of vaporization of 300kJ/kg. So at 15 to 1 you get 20kJ or about 30 degrees celsius, less at leaner mixtures. That about right? Is that really significant in preventing detonation? Doesn't seem like much help in cooling the motor to lower the temp by 30 degrees. And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do sort of begs the question of what they actually do. Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2 stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical. The above is sort of a truism, eh? Droplet size shouldn't matter in heat absorbtion because it all evaporates as it burns, right? The trick is to get it to evaporate so it can be burned at the right time. How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all day long up on a jack plate... Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates. And they love WOT. I just made that up. Oh. I have heard that some of the etec motors were having lower unit problems, not that that would have anything that I can see to do with the fuel induction system . The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? You REALLY don't know me... but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't understand? Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better. del I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings, which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use. Yes, but there was a significant failure rate among at least the 150/175 Fichts. Is more rugged construction, (presumably) higher pressure injection, and new combustion chamber/piston shapes sufficient to resolve them? I have been curious for some time about why the 150/175 was said to have many more problems than the big blocks. Do you have a theory? Or even facts? del |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortstothis.............
trainfan1 wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote: "trainfan1" wrote in message ... K. Smith wrote: trainfan1 wrote: K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots in the chamber. How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder temperatures reducing detonation. Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is? No. Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for even more transfer. There is an added problem here Rob, there has always been a well understood problem with crankcase transferred 2 strokes of heat getting carried away from the piston. No matter what alloy is used the heat has to go somewhere & the only place that's even remotely cool is the bore, & the only path for the heat is through the rings. (that's where you find the baked oil confirming way way too hot a piston) The age old problem with trying to make big 2 strokes work is that as the bore increases so the piston surface area exposed to the burn increases by the square, but the effective length of the rings only increases linearly. So the rings have to carry more heat into the bore with less unit contact area. Usually it becomes a hiding to nothing sort of thing, you reduce the specific output so the heat load through the rings stays managable (detune) or you use more rings. It's pretty much accepted that the upper limit for safe 2 strokes even when not being run lean, is 500cc per cyl. High specific output 2 strokes can't even get there ie. racing motor bikes tiny bores but lots of them, successful high specific output 2 stroke OBs?? the early Mercs again no big bores but lots of small pistons. Now E-Tec goes above the "accepted safe" barrier & nobody in the industry even asks, it really is just super markup marketing gone mad........ again. I still suggest their engines are experimental on every count. Like Ficht; experimental but still being marketed & it seems at hugely inflated dealer padding prices?? How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation. I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be reliable? Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it. This really is a subject that needs clarification Rob, with the "ordinary" tcw3 does the ECU flow more or less?? does the ECU use different mixture/spark profiles??? I guess what I'm just too delicate & shy to ask is; Do they use more oil??? Do they effectively detune the E-Tecs if you elect to run them on standard warranty oil??? & if so shouldn't that be disclosed in the advertising??? If there's no downside to using the standard "recommended" oil why do the forums seem to make an issue when an E-Tec blows? The first rejoinder from the ever hovering E-Tec dealer protection squads is to claim the owner almost deserves it, because they didn't pay extra for the dealer only "special" oil??? Why would anyone use the special oil?? what's your pitch for that?? because it could be very enlightening (ah enlightenment those were the days, not that I'm unhappy with wm:-)) How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation, cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion. This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is this really a significant factor? In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system. And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do sort of begs the question of what they actually do. Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2 stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical. How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all day long up on a jack plate... Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates. And they love WOT. I just made that up. The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? You REALLY don't know me... but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't understand? Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better. del I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings, which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use. I accept they work or at least a goodly majority, but even though Ficht had a 1 in 5 failure rate that still leaves 4 thousand out of 5 thousand still going as you say. They must have flogged lots because they ****ed 1.3 Billion US against the wall doing it:-) To the boaters it doesn't mean much because any boat with a ficht attached is worthless on the used market, we've even had new complete boats sold here at below secondhand prices just because they had fichts attached. Anyway a good discussion & thanks as always. K |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortstothis.............
K. Smith wrote:
trainfan1 wrote: Del Cecchi wrote: "trainfan1" wrote in message ... K. Smith wrote: trainfan1 wrote: K. Smith wrote: That's the exact issue runaway your marketing is based on your "claims" & every single time they're independently tested (so far) you are found out as fudging. When independently tested a Merc made the claimed 250HP (+), On premium fuel, required, on a factory hopped-up motor... The article makes it clear the Bomb people were there prepping their motor also, so I'd say it's independent testing, the losers will always have the dealers making excuses. In this case the Bomb engine was 13HP below the Merc that's a fair bit of HP. a Yamaha was slightly under it's claimed 250HP & your engine Co's was way down on HP & to some users more importantly; torque. BUT the peak torque comes in at a lower & more usable rpm... I think that's a fair comment & probably it would have been relevant if the engine made the claimed HP as the others in the class did, but when it's only a 239HP engine it sounds like the dealers are trying to still sell no matter what??? Remember these engines are thousands of dollars dearer than the competition, not hundreds but thousands!!!! Where is that extra money going?? certainly we can't see it going into the engines which are simple old style 2 strokes with a ficht injector system??? No multiple variable timing cam shafts,multi valves per cyl,super chargers,world leading & proven GM technology base?? none of that with these super priced whipper snipper motors. The clear suspicion needs to be that the "extra" money is being thrown at the dishonest dealers so they'll flog them & say/do whatever it takes to make their windfall profits. There's no way the dealers or bomb will ever admit any of this indeed the rebate, subsidy, training BS money return schemes are so well hidden not even dealer staff are aware. The same marketing ploy was used to flog the Fichts & the dealers of course even in this NG denied it all day long, till the bankruptcy court uncovered the truth when the dealers tried to recover the kickbacks. Which was Her Honour found the dealers had extracted 30% post retail sale kickbacks & that they were never entitled to them, indeed we were hoping she'd refer them for resale price maintenance:-) The dealers were flogging known defective ficht engines for extra money (one even made it clear they'd said they'd stop selling ficht unless they got bigger rebates etc). Now these dealer idiots think they can run the exact same scam & nobody will say anything?? A name change doesn't clear the slate, It's more than a name change - & you know it... actually you probably don't... It's nothing more than a name change, all the claimed "improvements" are about trying to get enough engines to hold together long enough that the dealers will sell sell sell for their super markup??. How does a treated bore stop detonation?? Better & more even heat transfer to water jackets eliminating hot spots in the chamber. How do high melting point pistons stop detonation??? Endothermic friendly metallurgy promotes heat transfer from hot piston centers & to cylinder walls & water jackets. Lowers & evens cylinder temperatures reducing detonation. Could you explain what "Endothermic friendly metallurgy" is? No. Well, the alloy used in the pistons can absorb and transfer heat more readily. If they had to, they could even go to ported pistons for even more transfer. There is an added problem here Rob, there has always been a well understood problem with crankcase transferred 2 strokes of heat getting carried away from the piston. No matter what alloy is used the heat has to go somewhere & the only place that's even remotely cool is the bore, & the only path for the heat is through the rings. (that's where you find the baked oil confirming way way too hot a piston) The age old problem with trying to make big 2 strokes work is that as the bore increases so the piston surface area exposed to the burn increases by the square, but the effective length of the rings only increases linearly. So the rings have to carry more heat into the bore with less unit contact area. Usually it becomes a hiding to nothing sort of thing, you reduce the specific output so the heat load through the rings stays managable (detune) or you use more rings. It's pretty much accepted that the upper limit for safe 2 strokes even when not being run lean, is 500cc per cyl. High specific output 2 strokes can't even get there ie. racing motor bikes tiny bores but lots of them, successful high specific output 2 stroke OBs?? the early Mercs again no big bores but lots of small pistons. Now E-Tec goes above the "accepted safe" barrier & nobody in the industry even asks, it really is just super markup marketing gone mad........ again. I still suggest their engines are experimental on every count. Like Ficht; experimental but still being marketed & it seems at hugely inflated dealer padding prices?? How does high temp oil & then even less of it stop detonation?? Low ash high temp oil has a higher flash point, resisting combustion/dieseling syndrome, reducing detonation. I thought they used TCW-3. Do they require some unusual oil to be reliable? Only if you commit to it and have the engine rigged for it. This really is a subject that needs clarification Rob, with the "ordinary" tcw3 does the ECU flow more or less?? does the ECU use different mixture/spark profiles??? I guess what I'm just too delicate & shy to ask is; Do they use more oil??? Do they effectively detune the E-Tecs if you elect to run them on standard warranty oil??? & if so shouldn't that be disclosed in the advertising??? If there's no downside to using the standard "recommended" oil why do the forums seem to make an issue when an E-Tec blows? The first rejoinder from the ever hovering E-Tec dealer protection squads is to claim the owner almost deserves it, because they didn't pay extra for the dealer only "special" oil??? Why would anyone use the special oil?? what's your pitch for that?? because it could be very enlightening (ah enlightenment those were the days, not that I'm unhappy with wm:-)) How does an impact injector/garden hose nozzle combo provide enough atomisation to stop detonation??? It doesn't. The combination of chamber shape, heat dissipation, cylinder, piston, & head materials, as well as coatings, all affect flame travel, & tendencies toward detonation or not. The injector system, however you may "want" to characterize it, is at the end of the whole process. Controlled by a properly programmed ECM, the injectors should provide an optimum charge, atomized enough for good combustion, and in sufficient quantity for additional cooling of the compression/injection stroke, with proper droplet size, all to attain stoichiometric proportions in the approach to complete combustion. This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. I didn't know gasoline absorbed that much heat when evaporating. Is this really a significant factor? In 2 strokes it sure is. The fuel is part of the cooling system. And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do sort of begs the question of what they actually do. Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2 stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical. How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all day long up on a jack plate... Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates. And they love WOT. I just made that up. The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? You REALLY don't know me... but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't understand? Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better. del I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings, which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use. I accept they work or at least a goodly majority, but even though Ficht had a 1 in 5 failure rate that still leaves 4 thousand out of 5 thousand still going as you say. They must have flogged lots because they ****ed 1.3 Billion US against the wall doing it:-) To the boaters it doesn't mean much because any boat with a ficht attached is worthless on the used market, we've even had new complete boats sold here at below secondhand prices just because they had fichts attached. Anyway a good discussion & thanks as always. K Karen, Do you have any proof that the markup and rebate on Fichts and Etec are any different than other marine engines? -- Reggie "That's my story and I am sticking to it." |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortsto this.............
trainfan1 wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote: So this is some alloy significantly different from the aluminum alloys used for conventional pistons? Not significantly, but to be labeled "high melting point" they'd better be made to withstand more. Are you saying that this special oil is necessary to achieve reliability in etec? I do not believe this is a requirement, only if you want to commit to the lower volume setting / longer refill intervals. OK, here is a calculation. Air has a specific heat of 723 J/kg-degree, and gasoline has a latent heat of vaporization of 300kJ/kg. So at 15 to 1 you get 20kJ or about 30 degrees celsius, less at leaner mixtures. That about right? Is that really significant in preventing detonation? Doesn't seem like much help in cooling the motor to lower the temp by 30 degrees. The heat of vaporization is not the only critical issue. A two stroke engine by design has to pass some unburned fuel, as it also must put up with some exhaust gases in with the new (a trick used in 4 strokes to lower the combustion temp & oxides of nitrogen for emissions compliance). Cant pass unburned fuel or EPA and California will have your hide. 2 strokes have always been run richer than "stoichiometricly" required to provide cooling via unburned fuel. Again, it's an amazing balancing act that the 2 stroke manufacturers are attempting in keeping power up, economy up, longevity up, & weight & failures down. Fast acting processors & high pressure injection systems are the only way to do it. BRP is in this for the long run. I thought that unburned hydrocarbons was no longer allowed to any significant degree. So if you run etec richer than stoiciometric then you fail epa. Isn't that correct? Optimax is not high pressure injection. So high pressure injection is not Only Way. In fact we don't know for sure it is even one way. And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do sort of begs the question of what they actually do. Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2 stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical. The above is sort of a truism, eh? Droplet size shouldn't matter in heat absorbtion because it all evaporates as it burns, right? Not in a 2 stroke. So in an etec does it evaporate and burn? I'm not talking about my dirty merc. The trick is to get it to evaporate so it can be burned at the right time. Only the part you want burned for power... Again, doesn't it all have to burn? Or does some burn in the exhaust system? Just thought of that possibility. How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all day long up on a jack plate... Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates. And they love WOT. I just made that up. Oh. I have heard that some of the etec motors were having lower unit problems, not that that would have anything that I can see to do with the fuel induction system . I agree on that. I just did not see the correlation, unless the E-Tecs, once broken in, are putting out more than they are rated for or BRP got poor leg parts from their supplier. Or they screwed up the design somehow. Bass and Walleye boats discussed it some in the shootout article. The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? You REALLY don't know me... but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't understand? Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better. del I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings, which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use. Yes, but there was a significant failure rate among at least the 150/175 Fichts. Is more rugged construction, (presumably) higher pressure injection, and new combustion chamber/piston shapes sufficient to resolve them? We'll have to see. BRP gives you a "free ride" for 3 years. OMC did too, until they didn't. I have been curious for some time about why the 150/175 was said to have many more problems than the big blocks. Do you have a theory? Or even facts? No facts, but the differences between similar architecture V's are several when you are dealing w/ different bores/strokes (I'm not sure which spacing is shared between them) and then the injector volume must be changed too, it's not like the carby days where you could change the HP w/ a throttle bore change & an exhaust tuner. Rob -- Del Cecchi "This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions, strategies or opinions.” |
E-Tec problems??? there must be big time if the dealer spruikerresortsto this.............
Del Cecchi wrote:
So this is some alloy significantly different from the aluminum alloys used for conventional pistons? Not significantly, but to be labeled "high melting point" they'd better be made to withstand more. Are you saying that this special oil is necessary to achieve reliability in etec? I do not believe this is a requirement, only if you want to commit to the lower volume setting / longer refill intervals. OK, here is a calculation. Air has a specific heat of 723 J/kg-degree, and gasoline has a latent heat of vaporization of 300kJ/kg. So at 15 to 1 you get 20kJ or about 30 degrees celsius, less at leaner mixtures. That about right? Is that really significant in preventing detonation? Doesn't seem like much help in cooling the motor to lower the temp by 30 degrees. The heat of vaporization is not the only critical issue. A two stroke engine by design has to pass some unburned fuel, as it also must put up with some exhaust gases in with the new (a trick used in 4 strokes to lower the combustion temp & oxides of nitrogen for emissions compliance). 2 strokes have always been run richer than "stoichiometricly" required to provide cooling via unburned fuel. Again, it's an amazing balancing act that the 2 stroke manufacturers are attempting in keeping power up, economy up, longevity up, & weight & failures down. Fast acting processors & high pressure injection systems are the only way to do it. BRP is in this for the long run. And saying what the "properly controlled by ECM injectors *should* do sort of begs the question of what they actually do. Well, a 14.7:1 A/F Ratio is ideal, but not attainable in practice, as there is not enough time in direct injection to vaporize the fuel. A 2 stroke will leave behind some exhaust gasses too. The injector must be able to atomize the fuel into droplets small enough to approach vapor, but large enough to absorb some of the heat of combustion. What E-Tec is trying to do is minimize the losses associated with overlapping strokes in 2 stroke design theory, while using as little fuel as possible. The chamber design is very critical. The above is sort of a truism, eh? Droplet size shouldn't matter in heat absorbtion because it all evaporates as it burns, right? Not in a 2 stroke. The trick is to get it to evaporate so it can be burned at the right time. Only the part you want burned for power... How does running an engine at power on hugely lean mixtures stop detonation?? This is the balancing trick - and hence the other tweaks - the lean charge must also be enough to complete the cooling process too. it caused the base heat buildup that starts detonation. How does a beefed up huge extra drag gearcase stop detonation?? Keeps the Sidewinder/Switzer kids from picking this model to run WOT all day long up on a jack plate... Better not put one on your bass boat. Those guys love their jack plates. And they love WOT. I just made that up. Oh. I have heard that some of the etec motors were having lower unit problems, not that that would have anything that I can see to do with the fuel induction system . I agree on that. I just did not see the correlation, unless the E-Tecs, once broken in, are putting out more than they are rated for or BRP got poor leg parts from their supplier. The answer is none do: all those things are a lame (is not an MP3 emulator:-)) attempt to make the engines able to withstand the inevitable detonation consequences when run lean at power on poorly atomised low pressure injection with very questionable lubrication. Thanks for the E-Tec spruik Rob but hey I'm sure you got a lucrative deal to fit them?? much more dollars than the other brands??? You REALLY don't know me... but what is it to your advantage to de-spruik something you don't understand? Always looking for technical details. The geekier the better. del I can see the dilemma and confusion K. Smith is facing, but the engines do work. The BRP units are an improvement over the OMC offerings, which did have isolated issues - as there are thousands still in use. Yes, but there was a significant failure rate among at least the 150/175 Fichts. Is more rugged construction, (presumably) higher pressure injection, and new combustion chamber/piston shapes sufficient to resolve them? We'll have to see. BRP gives you a "free ride" for 3 years. I have been curious for some time about why the 150/175 was said to have many more problems than the big blocks. Do you have a theory? Or even facts? No facts, but the differences between similar architecture V's are several when you are dealing w/ different bores/strokes (I'm not sure which spacing is shared between them) and then the injector volume must be changed too, it's not like the carby days where you could change the HP w/ a throttle bore change & an exhaust tuner. Rob |
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