"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Nations form when people have common bonds of language, religion,
tradition, and other values. Trying to make a nation from three groups
like the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds is like pouring crankcase oil,
water, and honey into a gallon jug and then wondering why it doesn't
all blend together nicely. The Brits probably thought, "Hell, nobody
lives out there but a bunch of sand people anyway- so let's just lump a
big area together, give it a name, and make it easier to administer."

The only reason it hadn't fallen apart in the last 20 years is that
Saddam insisted on a secular government and also scared the crap out of
all sides. The US has allowed the people to vote in a constitution that
is at least semi-religious, and we can't scare the crap out of
*anybody* without playing into the propaganda program of the religious
fanatics.... we're in a tough spot. We should have looked at a bigger
picture before invading this place, but now that we're there it's
obvious that *nobody* has a good solution for resolving matters and
getting out. Too bad.

Chuck,

Good job. You have hit the nerve of this problem and you are 100%
correct, IMO.

RCE

If we didn't have a president who was so inexperienced in the ways of the
world, so unread, so naive, and so easily led by those with an agenda too
cerebral for him, we might not be in this mess.

Recall, please, that prior to his ascendancy to the presidency,
Bush had only traveled to one foreign country, and that country was...
Mexico. He also bragged about NOT being a reader.

Perhaps if Bush had been a bit more sophisticated, he would have listened
to his father, who advised him NOT to take over Iraq and occupy it.

I don't think there is a ghost of a chance of Iraq surviving as a nation
as it is presently configured. There's going to be a *lot* more killing,
and you know what? We're going to take the blame for it for as long as we
are there and for generations afterward.

We've now "rebuilt" the Iraqi defense forces and poured billions into
their training and equipment. It's time for Itaqis to decide what they
want their country to be and, if they want to hold it together, let them
fight for that.

But I don't believe it is something they value. As Chuck and others have
pointed out, Iraq really is a sham nation and it was held together by a
strongman.

It's not uncommmon. Some readers here might remember there was a nation
called Yugoslavia. It was also held together by a dictator. But Tito
wasn't the monster Saddam is. Still, after the fall of the Soviet Union,
Yugoslavia dissolved and warfare broke out.

We're stuck with Bush and his crew of incompetents for three more years.
Unless he and Cheney resign for the good of the nation and the good of the
world. A caretaker government here might help us get to the next
elections.

Bush...the worst president EVER.

Oh, bull****! The last president got us in to Somalia. Another country
cobbled together for administrative purposes. And now it is pretty much
like it was before the Italians cobbled it together for administrative
purposes. A land spit and ruled by warlords and supplies an abundance of
real pirates to attach passing ships and boats. We have not learned from
out mistakes, no matter which side of the aisle is in charge of the
Whitehouse.

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Nations form when people have common bonds of language, religion,
tradition, and other values. Trying to make a nation from three groups
like the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds is like pouring crankcase oil,
water, and honey into a gallon jug and then wondering why it doesn't
all blend together nicely. The Brits probably thought, "Hell, nobody
lives out there but a bunch of sand people anyway- so let's just lump a
big area together, give it a name, and make it easier to administer."

The only reason it hadn't fallen apart in the last 20 years is that
Saddam insisted on a secular government and also scared the crap out of
all sides. The US has allowed the people to vote in a constitution that
is at least semi-religious, and we can't scare the crap out of
*anybody* without playing into the propaganda program of the religious
fanatics.... we're in a tough spot. We should have looked at a bigger
picture before invading this place, but now that we're there it's
obvious that *nobody* has a good solution for resolving matters and
getting out. Too bad.

Chuck,

Good job. You have hit the nerve of this problem and you are 100%
correct, IMO.

RCE

If we didn't have a president who was so inexperienced in the ways of the
world, so unread, so naive, and so easily led by those with an agenda too
cerebral for him, we might not be in this mess.

Recall, please, that prior to his ascendancy to the presidency,
Bush had only traveled to one foreign country, and that country was...
Mexico. He also bragged about NOT being a reader.

Perhaps if Bush had been a bit more sophisticated, he would have listened
to his father, who advised him NOT to take over Iraq and occupy it.

I don't think there is a ghost of a chance of Iraq surviving as a nation
as it is presently configured. There's going to be a *lot* more killing,
and you know what? We're going to take the blame for it for as long as we
are there and for generations afterward.

We've now "rebuilt" the Iraqi defense forces and poured billions into
their training and equipment. It's time for Itaqis to decide what they
want their country to be and, if they want to hold it together, let them
fight for that.

But I don't believe it is something they value. As Chuck and others have
pointed out, Iraq really is a sham nation and it was held together by a
strongman.

It's not uncommmon. Some readers here might remember there was a nation
called Yugoslavia. It was also held together by a dictator. But Tito
wasn't the monster Saddam is. Still, after the fall of the Soviet Union,
Yugoslavia dissolved and warfare broke out.

We're stuck with Bush and his crew of incompetents for three more years.
Unless he and Cheney resign for the good of the nation and the good of
the world. A caretaker government here might help us get to the next
elections.

Bush...the worst president EVER.

Oh, bull****! The last president got us in to Somalia.

Actually our troops were in Somalia before Clinton took office.

But pulling out was the big mistake. As an aside, have you noticed that
Clinton has a habit of pulling out...and it always seems to cause him
trouble (ie--there'd have been no stain on the dress).

IN bin Laden's 1996 declaration of war against the U.S., he specifically
cited Clinton's 1996 withdrawal of US troops as an act that emboldened al
Qaeda.



Another country
cobbled together for administrative purposes. And now it is pretty much
like it was before the Italians cobbled it together for administrative
purposes. A land spit and ruled by warlords and supplies an abundance of
real pirates to attach passing ships and boats. We have not learned from
out mistakes, no matter which side of the aisle is in charge of the
Whitehouse.