As those who have been following my travails know, the Dagger Encore
that I was going to look at was trash, and literally is now in the
landfill.

To review, I am looking for a semi-beginner solo whitewater canoe for a
200 pound person.

Possibilities:

The first is a Dagger Caption. Set up for tandem, it was originally set
up for solo. Well used but in fair/good condition. I have the bow and
stern bags too. (One of these has a slow leak)$550.00. There is enough
room between the front and rear pedestal to add a third pedestal for
solo use.

The other is an older Blue Hole. I think it is a sunburst, can
remember. 13' Not as rockered as the Caption. but certainly a good
beginner boat. Kneeling thwart, no pedestal, no outfitting, a few
D-rings. $250.00

A Mohawk Probe 14, $375, with the solo/tandem pedestals, outfitting and
float bags. Purple is not my favorite color, but that is not a huge deal.

A Dagger Genesis, 13.5 foot long, $500, Bob Foote saddle, flotation, 2
paddles, pump/bailer. minor dings. Great big water boat.

Dagger Impulse (he spelled it Implule), 13 feet long, fully outfitted
whitewater canoe: saddle, adjustable foot pegs, bow/stern airbags,
bow/stern lines. Great all-around whitewater boat. $500

There is an outrage RX for $850, probably out of my budget.

The only boats that I know for sure are still available are the first
two, the Caption and the Sunburst.

My thoughts:

$550 for an old Caption that I would need to add a pedestal to and
perhaps a float bag seems like too much money.

I know that Richard H. thinks that the Sunburst is a great boat with a
cult following. The price is right, and I could outfit it to my liking.
But complete outfitting is likely to be $200 or more and take a lot of
my time. Also, I am hardly an expert at outfitting, and would not say
that my first attempt was a great success.

The Probe 14 sounds like the best deal, if he still has the boat.

The Genesis is a possibility, sounds like it would be ready to use, but
a bit more money than the Probe, and my guess is that the Probe is newer.

One source makes the Dagger Impulse seem like a relatively stable boat,
beginners to experts.

I have not seen any of these boats yet. They are all within easy
driving distance, so that is not an issue.

How do the experts vote? Which is the best deal? Which ones should I
forget, and why?

Richard



--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

I don't care what the other Richard H. says, the Bluehole is just
*barely* a whitewater boat. If it is 13' it is probably a Sunburst I,
which is *really* obsolete. Sunburst II (rev. 2.0, a total rethinking
of the concept of whitewater canoe) has a cult following... of
old-school whitewater trippers; that is, people who do multiday trip on
Canadian Class II-III rivers. It is fine for surviving easy whitewater
-- just getting down upright and in one piece -- but it is not well
suited to learning boat-control and technical maneuvering for elegant
whitewater running.

The Genesis must be at least 10 years old, because (I believe) Dagger
only made them from around '93 to '95. Pretty good boat, but designed
for running big water and not so well suited for technical work.

Probe and Caption are pretty fair whitewater boats, but they are true
barges for solo use for anyone under 250#.

Keep looking for a 12' boat, something in the 12'2" to 12'8" range.
This includes all the less extreme modern whitewater boats: Probe and
Probe II, Viper, Rival, Impulse, Prodigy, Outrage. Anything the size
of the Genesis (13 1/2' or so) or longer is either obsolete or designed
as a tandem; in either case not really suitable to learning whitewater
skills.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

I am a 200+ pound kayaker, mostly playboats, but also dabbling in OC-1. The
caption is cool, but what I found for myself as a great
beginner\intermediate canoe is the Mohawk XL-13. Good stability, not bad
speedwise, enough rocker to turn well, and plays well for a bigger guy. That
and the fact that I got 2 of them for ridiculus prices.
"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't care what the other Richard H. says, the Bluehole is just
*barely* a whitewater boat. If it is 13' it is probably a Sunburst I,
which is *really* obsolete. Sunburst II (rev. 2.0, a total rethinking
of the concept of whitewater canoe) has a cult following... of
old-school whitewater trippers; that is, people who do multiday trip on
Canadian Class II-III rivers. It is fine for surviving easy whitewater
-- just getting down upright and in one piece -- but it is not well
suited to learning boat-control and technical maneuvering for elegant
whitewater running.

The Genesis must be at least 10 years old, because (I believe) Dagger
only made them from around '93 to '95. Pretty good boat, but designed
for running big water and not so well suited for technical work.

Probe and Caption are pretty fair whitewater boats, but they are true
barges for solo use for anyone under 250#.

Keep looking for a 12' boat, something in the 12'2" to 12'8" range.
This includes all the less extreme modern whitewater boats: Probe and
Probe II, Viper, Rival, Impulse, Prodigy, Outrage. Anything the size
of the Genesis (13 1/2' or so) or longer is either obsolete or designed
as a tandem; in either case not really suitable to learning whitewater
skills.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

I agree with all except the Rival and the Viper. Although I was pushing
230 when I was paddling the Rival, I always felt that it didn't perform
well for anyone that was much over 180 lbs and I sold it and took up
kayaking. While I personally like the Viper, I wouldn't recommend it
for a person starting out.

Funny, I like the Viper and the Zoom, don't like the Ocoee or the
Detonator.

I would also add the Esquif Nitro and for a 200 lber, the Outrage XL.

Larry


Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
I don't care what the other Richard H. says, the Bluehole is just
*barely* a whitewater boat. If it is 13' it is probably a Sunburst I,
which is *really* obsolete. Sunburst II (rev. 2.0, a total rethinking
of the concept of whitewater canoe) has a cult following... of
old-school whitewater trippers; that is, people who do multiday trip on
Canadian Class II-III rivers. It is fine for surviving easy whitewater
-- just getting down upright and in one piece -- but it is not well
suited to learning boat-control and technical maneuvering for elegant
whitewater running.

The Genesis must be at least 10 years old, because (I believe) Dagger
only made them from around '93 to '95. Pretty good boat, but designed
for running big water and not so well suited for technical work.

Probe and Caption are pretty fair whitewater boats, but they are true
barges for solo use for anyone under 250#.

Keep looking for a 12' boat, something in the 12'2" to 12'8" range.
This includes all the less extreme modern whitewater boats: Probe and
Probe II, Viper, Rival, Impulse, Prodigy, Outrage. Anything the size
of the Genesis (13 1/2' or so) or longer is either obsolete or designed
as a tandem; in either case not really suitable to learning whitewater
skills.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================