That time of year again!
 

JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
news:85OdneshcK6UtGjenZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@comca st.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:


The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp

It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large
exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates.
Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union
controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in
yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift
delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they
would put their hand out looking for a tip while they are on the
clock. Pretty sad.

Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a decent
wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?


Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the
International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other
unionized convention centers are the same

So?

You go to a prime convention center, you want work done, you deal with
the contractors with whom the convention center has contracted. That's
how it is in the real world.


No, that is how some unions chose to make it in the real world.

Wonder why jobs are going overseas?

Convention center jobs are going overseas?

Union jobs certainly are.

Sure. US Corporations are taking us to the bottom, heading back to the
middle ages.



Nope, it is now all about brain not brawn. The unions have led businesses
into bankruptcy or caused them to delegate their manufacturing to overseas
in order to make a profit.

That is indisputable.


If that's the case...wht don't all the manufacturing companies just move
to a so called 'right to work' anti-union state..instead of China etc.

That time of year again!
 

JimH wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:


The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Check your bill. That simple forklift delivery was almost certainly
billed to you by the show organizers, not directly by the union. The
difference in the wage paid to a union fork lift operator (maybe $10
for a 15-minute delivery) and an illegal alien doing the same job
(maybe $1.50 for a 15-minute delivery) isn't going to run the bill up
to "hundreds of dollars". If the bill is hundreds of dollars, it's the
show organizers or the display rental company that is profiting. Our
local boat show rentals include basic 15-amp power to the booth and
there is no restriction about plugging in you own
display------------however, if you need more power than 15 amps or
require specialized routing of wires etc there would be additional
charges and it isn't unreasonable to pay a $50 minimum for a skilled
electrician.

Or is it actually your opinion that the difference between a $15/hr
unionized concession stand worker (sellling $600 worth of junk food
with a gross margin of over $500 per hour) and a $5.75/hr "guest
worker" making almost the same sales- but not quite because the mental
translation from Spanish to English takes a moment to do- would mean
that everybody should be able to get into the show free? Are you really
saying that the only reason there's an admission charge at all is to
cover the difference in cost between workers smart enough to engage in
collective bargaining with management and workers dumb enough or
desperate enough to be exploited?

You may be on to something. Let's kick out the unions everywhere. No
more admission fees to state fairs, amusement parks, movie theaters,
concerts, plays, boat shows, home shows, car shows, etc. I had no idea
that the only reason admission to all forms of entertainment isn't
completely complimentary was due to the difference between a living
wage and a slave wage. Let them eat stale nachos, I wanna get in free.
:-)

My experience with setting up for boat shows has been that it is the
display companies, not the union laborers, who rape and pillage.
Example: A few shows back I arrived at the booth to find a very, very
short table had been delivered. We had ordered a table with 40" legs so
that one can either stand or sit behind it at various points during the
day. I was looking at something that was too short to sit behind with a
standard chair- let alone a stool- and would have placed our display
far too low for comfortable viewing by show patrons. I went to the show
office and complained, where I was informed that the table delivered to
the booth was exactly what the publisher had requested. It wasn't of
course, but any time there's a monopoly in place- as at a trade show-
you can argue until you are three shades of blue in the face and get
nowhere. I had to agree to pay over $100 to have the table removed and
the proper table delivered, and had to sign a purchase agreement for
that fee at the conclusion of the discussion.

What burned my butt, big time, was when one of the company
representatives showed up at the booth and asked, "Is this the place
that needs the 40-inch table?" When I said yes, the company
representative turned the little table on its side, *extended the
telescoping legs to make it 40-inches high* (!) and said, "Have a nice
show!" No union employee in sight, just an asshole who could have told
me, when I complained, that the legs were adjustable.

When the next show came around, I went out to IKEA and bought a table,
two chairs,
a carpet, etc for just about what Rape and Pillage Display wanted for a
short term rental. We just used that gear for the 4th time in January-
so I guess I have to thank that free enterprise crook who screwed me
out of the hundred bucks for the leg adjustment. That
ripoff incident inspired me to save some money- and the $100 the
company virtually stole from me has cost that outfit close to $1000 in
lost revenue so far.

But you're right about at least one thing if not more. I'm sure the
show display rental companies would be able to keep a bit more of their
unconscionable fees if they could hire a greater number of illegal,
unqualfied, or desperate workers. It's easy for any company or
organization charging obscene prices to blame it on "the unions"- but
in reality boat show display pricing is more the result of absurd
profiteering in a monopolized market.



Welcome back to the darkside Chuck. We knew you would come back. ;-)



Glad we have an 'insider' here to cut through the bulls*it.

That time of year again!
 

On 16 Feb 2006 19:07:59 -0800, wrote:


JimH wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Check your bill. That simple forklift delivery was almost certainly
billed to you by the show organizers, not directly by the union. The
difference in the wage paid to a union fork lift operator (maybe $10
for a 15-minute delivery) and an illegal alien doing the same job
(maybe $1.50 for a 15-minute delivery) isn't going to run the bill up
to "hundreds of dollars". If the bill is hundreds of dollars, it's the
show organizers or the display rental company that is profiting. Our
local boat show rentals include basic 15-amp power to the booth and
there is no restriction about plugging in you own
display------------however, if you need more power than 15 amps or
require specialized routing of wires etc there would be additional
charges and it isn't unreasonable to pay a $50 minimum for a skilled
electrician.

Or is it actually your opinion that the difference between a $15/hr
unionized concession stand worker (sellling $600 worth of junk food
with a gross margin of over $500 per hour) and a $5.75/hr "guest
worker" making almost the same sales- but not quite because the mental
translation from Spanish to English takes a moment to do- would mean
that everybody should be able to get into the show free? Are you really
saying that the only reason there's an admission charge at all is to
cover the difference in cost between workers smart enough to engage in
collective bargaining with management and workers dumb enough or
desperate enough to be exploited?

You may be on to something. Let's kick out the unions everywhere. No
more admission fees to state fairs, amusement parks, movie theaters,
concerts, plays, boat shows, home shows, car shows, etc. I had no idea
that the only reason admission to all forms of entertainment isn't
completely complimentary was due to the difference between a living
wage and a slave wage. Let them eat stale nachos, I wanna get in free.
:-)

My experience with setting up for boat shows has been that it is the
display companies, not the union laborers, who rape and pillage.
Example: A few shows back I arrived at the booth to find a very, very
short table had been delivered. We had ordered a table with 40" legs so
that one can either stand or sit behind it at various points during the
day. I was looking at something that was too short to sit behind with a
standard chair- let alone a stool- and would have placed our display
far too low for comfortable viewing by show patrons. I went to the show
office and complained, where I was informed that the table delivered to
the booth was exactly what the publisher had requested. It wasn't of
course, but any time there's a monopoly in place- as at a trade show-
you can argue until you are three shades of blue in the face and get
nowhere. I had to agree to pay over $100 to have the table removed and
the proper table delivered, and had to sign a purchase agreement for
that fee at the conclusion of the discussion.

What burned my butt, big time, was when one of the company
representatives showed up at the booth and asked, "Is this the place
that needs the 40-inch table?" When I said yes, the company
representative turned the little table on its side, *extended the
telescoping legs to make it 40-inches high* (!) and said, "Have a nice
show!" No union employee in sight, just an asshole who could have told
me, when I complained, that the legs were adjustable.

When the next show came around, I went out to IKEA and bought a table,
two chairs,
a carpet, etc for just about what Rape and Pillage Display wanted for a
short term rental. We just used that gear for the 4th time in January-
so I guess I have to thank that free enterprise crook who screwed me
out of the hundred bucks for the leg adjustment. That
ripoff incident inspired me to save some money- and the $100 the
company virtually stole from me has cost that outfit close to $1000 in
lost revenue so far.

But you're right about at least one thing if not more. I'm sure the
show display rental companies would be able to keep a bit more of their
unconscionable fees if they could hire a greater number of illegal,
unqualfied, or desperate workers. It's easy for any company or
organization charging obscene prices to blame it on "the unions"- but
in reality boat show display pricing is more the result of absurd
profiteering in a monopolized market.


Welcome back to the darkside Chuck. We knew you would come back. ;-)


Dark side?

I thought we were discussing whether extortionary pricing for boat show
display and setup services was a result of union laborers earning $5-10
an hour more than the guys sent out from rent-the-homeless agencies vs.
display companies charging 5, 10, or 15 times their actual costs (union
or not) for goods and services supplied? :-)

Been there, done that, paid the fees. I have an informed opinion. Yeah,
the display company costs would be less if they could hire all
non-union help, but it would be foolish to expect to see those savings
passed along to the exhibitors. If we're going to have to pay through
the nose, and other orifices, to display at a boat show it's somewhat
gratifying to think that just mayhbe the guy pushing the broom, taking
tickets, or walking around on security patrol won't have to sleep under
a bridge and go dumpster diving for dinner.

Jim's up to his tricks again. He can't seem to learn.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

That time of year again!
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself
and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Check your bill. That simple forklift delivery was almost certainly
billed to you by the show organizers, not directly by the union. The
difference in the wage paid to a union fork lift operator (maybe $10
for a 15-minute delivery) and an illegal alien doing the same job
(maybe $1.50 for a 15-minute delivery) isn't going to run the bill up
to "hundreds of dollars". If the bill is hundreds of dollars, it's the
show organizers or the display rental company that is profiting. Our
local boat show rentals include basic 15-amp power to the booth and
there is no restriction about plugging in you own
display------------however, if you need more power than 15 amps or
require specialized routing of wires etc there would be additional
charges and it isn't unreasonable to pay a $50 minimum for a skilled
electrician.

Or is it actually your opinion that the difference between a $15/hr
unionized concession stand worker (sellling $600 worth of junk food
with a gross margin of over $500 per hour) and a $5.75/hr "guest
worker" making almost the same sales- but not quite because the mental
translation from Spanish to English takes a moment to do- would mean
that everybody should be able to get into the show free? Are you really
saying that the only reason there's an admission charge at all is to
cover the difference in cost between workers smart enough to engage in
collective bargaining with management and workers dumb enough or
desperate enough to be exploited?

You may be on to something. Let's kick out the unions everywhere. No
more admission fees to state fairs, amusement parks, movie theaters,
concerts, plays, boat shows, home shows, car shows, etc. I had no idea
that the only reason admission to all forms of entertainment isn't
completely complimentary was due to the difference between a living
wage and a slave wage. Let them eat stale nachos, I wanna get in free.
:-)

My experience with setting up for boat shows has been that it is the
display companies, not the union laborers, who rape and pillage.
Example: A few shows back I arrived at the booth to find a very, very
short table had been delivered. We had ordered a table with 40" legs so
that one can either stand or sit behind it at various points during the
day. I was looking at something that was too short to sit behind with a
standard chair- let alone a stool- and would have placed our display
far too low for comfortable viewing by show patrons. I went to the show
office and complained, where I was informed that the table delivered to
the booth was exactly what the publisher had requested. It wasn't of
course, but any time there's a monopoly in place- as at a trade show-
you can argue until you are three shades of blue in the face and get
nowhere. I had to agree to pay over $100 to have the table removed and
the proper table delivered, and had to sign a purchase agreement for
that fee at the conclusion of the discussion.

What burned my butt, big time, was when one of the company
representatives showed up at the booth and asked, "Is this the place
that needs the 40-inch table?" When I said yes, the company
representative turned the little table on its side, *extended the
telescoping legs to make it 40-inches high* (!) and said, "Have a nice
show!" No union employee in sight, just an asshole who could have told
me, when I complained, that the legs were adjustable.

When the next show came around, I went out to IKEA and bought a table,
two chairs,
a carpet, etc for just about what Rape and Pillage Display wanted for a
short term rental. We just used that gear for the 4th time in January-
so I guess I have to thank that free enterprise crook who screwed me
out of the hundred bucks for the leg adjustment. That
ripoff incident inspired me to save some money- and the $100 the
company virtually stole from me has cost that outfit close to $1000 in
lost revenue so far.

But you're right about at least one thing if not more. I'm sure the
show display rental companies would be able to keep a bit more of their
unconscionable fees if they could hire a greater number of illegal,
unqualfied, or desperate workers. It's easy for any company or
organization charging obscene prices to blame it on "the unions"- but
in reality boat show display pricing is more the result of absurd
profiteering in a monopolized market.


Welcome back to the darkside Chuck. We knew you would come back. ;-)


Dark side?

I thought we were discussing whether extortionary pricing for boat show
display and setup services was a result of union laborers earning $5-10
an hour more than the guys sent out from rent-the-homeless agencies vs.
display companies charging 5, 10, or 15 times their actual costs (union
or not) for goods and services supplied? :-)

Been there, done that, paid the fees. I have an informed opinion. Yeah,
the display company costs would be less if they could hire all
non-union help, but it would be foolish to expect to see those savings
passed along to the exhibitors. If we're going to have to pay through
the nose, and other orifices, to display at a boat show it's somewhat
gratifying to think that just mayhbe the guy pushing the broom, taking
tickets, or walking around on security patrol won't have to sleep under
a bridge and go dumpster diving for dinner.


Maybe in Seattle, you can plug in your TV to the NEMA 15 amp circuit. But
in Chicago and New York and Washing DC, you have to have the "Union
Electrician" plug in that plug. The same plug you plug in all the time at
home, when you want to hook up your TV, or run an electric drill. I can see
the "Union Electrician" to run the circuit to your booth, but not to plug in
a standard electrical cord. We had that problem at a couple of customers
years ago. They had to have the "Union Electrician" come up to plug in our
o'scope. And you wonder why people move their companies from those places?

That time of year again!
 

Calif Bill wrote:


Maybe in Seattle, you can plug in your TV to the NEMA 15 amp circuit. But
in Chicago and New York and Washing DC, you have to have the "Union
Electrician" plug in that plug. The same plug you plug in all the time at
home, when you want to hook up your TV, or run an electric drill. I can see
the "Union Electrician" to run the circuit to your booth, but not to plug in
a standard electrical cord. We had that problem at a couple of customers
years ago. They had to have the "Union Electrician" come up to plug in our
o'scope. And you wonder why people move their companies from those places?

You might want to check and see whether it's really "union rules" or
the local fire code that requires a licensed electrician to make the
electrical connections in a booth at a trade show. The last thing
anybody would want to see would be fire breaking out in a building
filled with people at any sort of show. Some of the beat-up junk stuff
that I'm sure at least a few folks want to plug in wouldn't pass a
cursory inspection. It may not be the "plugging in" that's the issue.
It may be that while connevting the plug the electrician is going to
make sure that the insulation isn't peeling away, the conctacts aren't
all burned up from previous arcing, etc.

And even so, when the show sponsor sends you a bill for $100 for
electrical connection be very aware that the union electrician is only
earning a tiny fraction of that. Let's say the union electrician earns
$50 an hour, plus benefits, so his time actually costs the show sponsor
maybe $70 an hour. If that electrician can work his way down an aisle
and connect 10 exhibitors in an hour, the cost to the employer is $7
per connection.
My entire point is that marking that $7 cost up to $100 and then
blaming the high fee on "the union" is just silly. Let's say that the
show coordinators could hire a quick and dirty backyard electrician
with a questionable "green card" for $35 an hour, all in all done. Half
the cost of union labor. Now the cost of making each connection is only
$3.50, rather than $7........In reality the service wouldn't be priced
at $96.50 with the same $93 markup that applied to the $100 billing,
the electrical service would still be priced at $100 and the markup
would be $96.50 instead of $93.

In some cases, such as the "plug in my booth" example, the markup from
the contracting company is such an enormous percentage of the bill that
doubling, halving, or even removing the true labor cost entirely
wouldn't affect profitability by all that much.

That time of year again!
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:

"Collective bargaining" says it all. The individual either can't think
for himself or can't earn his own wage on his own merit. He has to be
grouped with a variety of worker - good and bad - to get the same pay,
the same raises, the same treatment, etc.

Still sad.

"Collective bargaining" is the only means by which the worker can even
begin to establish a level playing field. Now, there are folks who
don't think anybody except the guy with capital invested in a private
company has any right to any sort of fair or equitable
business/employment climate and that such a capital investment grants a
license to exploit any and all dumb or desperate enough to work for
the firm- and those who feel that way are entitled to do so.

Otherwise, the power of the employer to withhold pay is merely offset
by the power of the collective bargainers to withhold services. Seems
pretty fair to me. One side uses every trick in the book to pay as
little as it can get by with, and the other uses every trick in the
book to get paid as much as it possibly can. Yup, that's fair. Not
exclusively advantageous to management and capital- but fair.

Without collective bargaining, it is the employer, not the worker, who
ignores merit and does not differentiate between good and bad workers.
Without collective bargaining, everybody's job is constantly at risk if
some guy happens along who will whore out for a buck an hour less.



Tried hard to stay out of this, but Chuck, you did me in ...

Where do people like yourself get these concepts and models of business in
your head? The majority of people are employed by small businesses. Every
small business I've ever dealt with or been associated with absolutely do
NOT have the employment philosophies that you describe. Employees who make
themselves valuable through their skills and dedication to their
responsibilities are cherished and rewarded to the max the company can
afford. Conversely, the slackers, assuming they can meet the minimum job
requirements, are not compensated at the same level. Seems fair to me.

The only place in industry where I consistently saw the employees becoming a
"billet" number with no consideration given to individual talent or drive
was in big corporations with a unionized work force.

RCE

That time of year again!
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


What do you do that's worth $50?

Assumed the risk and liability of creating a business that paid employees 70
bucks an hour. :-)

RCE (true statement for many years)

That time of year again!
 

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...


This reminds me of the time I went down to Ft. Lauderdale to record some
datacom lines at an major credit card company's data center. When I
arrived I asked where the power outlet was to plug in my data line
recorder. I was told that we can lift the floor tile but, we can not plug
in the equipment without a union electrician. So, the network engineer
called the electricians shop and asked for an electricain. An hour and
forty-five minutes later the electrician showed up and plugged my
equipment into the standard electric socket. Before, the electrician left
he said to give him a call when I was ready to have the equipment
unplugged. I responded "ok". Once the door shut the network engineer said
that the electrical plug to my equipment would probably get accidentally
kicked out of the electrical socket and that we would need to call the
electricians shop to get a union electrician to unplug the equipment from
the electrical outlet.

The plug was accidentally kicked out and I went back to the airport to
catch the next flight back to DC.



Years ago, my company designed and built a large, custom system for
McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis. The system took almost a year to engineer,
design, build, test and ship. After being installed at the McAir facility I
visited to witness the commissioning of the system. I noticed during it's
initial operation that a minor "set point" adjustment was not correct and
pulled a small, 3-inch "tweaker" screwdriver out of my pocket and approached
the system to make the minor adjustment. The McAir engineer was horrified
and grabbed my arm to stop me. He explained he had to call a union
electrical technician, who, following my instructions, would turn the tiny
little potentiometer to make the adjustment. I said, "you gotta be
kidding". He was not. He explained that if I were seen making the
adjustment a "grievance" would likely be filed by any other union employee
who witnessed my action, be he or her an electrician, painter, carpenter or
whatever. So, we stood there for almost an hour waiting for the call to be
made, the work order to be written and the technician to show up. When he
finally did and I politely explained what had to be done, he asked me if I
would mind doing it because he didn't know anything about the equipment.

RCE

That time of year again!
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..

It is also possible that your convention center's electricians are not
represented by the IBEW.

Having attended and exhibited at many trade shows over the years, the fee
for electrical service is a hourly rate with a one hour minimum, regardless
of how long it actually takes to do the job. The 50 buck fee being
discussed here would apply for wiring in a new service, or plugging in the
cord to an existing one. The requirement on the exhibitor to utilize the
exhibit hall contractor, union or not, is mandated by the exhibit hall
insurance regulations.

I don't mind having to pay for that service.

RCE

That time of year again!
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On 16 Feb 2006 19:07:59 -0800, wrote:


JimH wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic
control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself
and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Check your bill. That simple forklift delivery was almost certainly
billed to you by the show organizers, not directly by the union. The
difference in the wage paid to a union fork lift operator (maybe $10
for a 15-minute delivery) and an illegal alien doing the same job
(maybe $1.50 for a 15-minute delivery) isn't going to run the bill up
to "hundreds of dollars". If the bill is hundreds of dollars, it's the
show organizers or the display rental company that is profiting. Our
local boat show rentals include basic 15-amp power to the booth and
there is no restriction about plugging in you own
display------------however, if you need more power than 15 amps or
require specialized routing of wires etc there would be additional
charges and it isn't unreasonable to pay a $50 minimum for a skilled
electrician.

Or is it actually your opinion that the difference between a $15/hr
unionized concession stand worker (sellling $600 worth of junk food
with a gross margin of over $500 per hour) and a $5.75/hr "guest
worker" making almost the same sales- but not quite because the mental
translation from Spanish to English takes a moment to do- would mean
that everybody should be able to get into the show free? Are you
really
saying that the only reason there's an admission charge at all is to
cover the difference in cost between workers smart enough to engage in
collective bargaining with management and workers dumb enough or
desperate enough to be exploited?

You may be on to something. Let's kick out the unions everywhere. No
more admission fees to state fairs, amusement parks, movie theaters,
concerts, plays, boat shows, home shows, car shows, etc. I had no idea
that the only reason admission to all forms of entertainment isn't
completely complimentary was due to the difference between a living
wage and a slave wage. Let them eat stale nachos, I wanna get in free.
:-)

My experience with setting up for boat shows has been that it is the
display companies, not the union laborers, who rape and pillage.
Example: A few shows back I arrived at the booth to find a very, very
short table had been delivered. We had ordered a table with 40" legs
so
that one can either stand or sit behind it at various points during
the
day. I was looking at something that was too short to sit behind with
a
standard chair- let alone a stool- and would have placed our display
far too low for comfortable viewing by show patrons. I went to the
show
office and complained, where I was informed that the table delivered
to
the booth was exactly what the publisher had requested. It wasn't of
course, but any time there's a monopoly in place- as at a trade show-
you can argue until you are three shades of blue in the face and get
nowhere. I had to agree to pay over $100 to have the table removed and
the proper table delivered, and had to sign a purchase agreement for
that fee at the conclusion of the discussion.

What burned my butt, big time, was when one of the company
representatives showed up at the booth and asked, "Is this the place
that needs the 40-inch table?" When I said yes, the company
representative turned the little table on its side, *extended the
telescoping legs to make it 40-inches high* (!) and said, "Have a nice
show!" No union employee in sight, just an asshole who could have told
me, when I complained, that the legs were adjustable.

When the next show came around, I went out to IKEA and bought a table,
two chairs,
a carpet, etc for just about what Rape and Pillage Display wanted for
a
short term rental. We just used that gear for the 4th time in January-
so I guess I have to thank that free enterprise crook who screwed me
out of the hundred bucks for the leg adjustment. That
ripoff incident inspired me to save some money- and the $100 the
company virtually stole from me has cost that outfit close to $1000 in
lost revenue so far.

But you're right about at least one thing if not more. I'm sure the
show display rental companies would be able to keep a bit more of
their
unconscionable fees if they could hire a greater number of illegal,
unqualfied, or desperate workers. It's easy for any company or
organization charging obscene prices to blame it on "the unions"- but
in reality boat show display pricing is more the result of absurd
profiteering in a monopolized market.


Welcome back to the darkside Chuck. We knew you would come back. ;-)


Dark side?

I thought we were discussing whether extortionary pricing for boat show
display and setup services was a result of union laborers earning $5-10
an hour more than the guys sent out from rent-the-homeless agencies vs.
display companies charging 5, 10, or 15 times their actual costs (union
or not) for goods and services supplied? :-)

Been there, done that, paid the fees. I have an informed opinion. Yeah,
the display company costs would be less if they could hire all
non-union help, but it would be foolish to expect to see those savings
passed along to the exhibitors. If we're going to have to pay through
the nose, and other orifices, to display at a boat show it's somewhat
gratifying to think that just mayhbe the guy pushing the broom, taking
tickets, or walking around on security patrol won't have to sleep under
a bridge and go dumpster diving for dinner.

Jim's up to his tricks again. He can't seem to learn.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

Learn what Sheriff?

That time of year again!
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself
and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Check your bill. That simple forklift delivery was almost certainly
billed to you by the show organizers, not directly by the union. The
difference in the wage paid to a union fork lift operator (maybe $10
for a 15-minute delivery) and an illegal alien doing the same job
(maybe $1.50 for a 15-minute delivery) isn't going to run the bill up
to "hundreds of dollars". If the bill is hundreds of dollars, it's the
show organizers or the display rental company that is profiting. Our
local boat show rentals include basic 15-amp power to the booth and
there is no restriction about plugging in you own
display------------however, if you need more power than 15 amps or
require specialized routing of wires etc there would be additional
charges and it isn't unreasonable to pay a $50 minimum for a skilled
electrician.

Or is it actually your opinion that the difference between a $15/hr
unionized concession stand worker (sellling $600 worth of junk food
with a gross margin of over $500 per hour) and a $5.75/hr "guest
worker" making almost the same sales- but not quite because the mental
translation from Spanish to English takes a moment to do- would mean
that everybody should be able to get into the show free? Are you really
saying that the only reason there's an admission charge at all is to
cover the difference in cost between workers smart enough to engage in
collective bargaining with management and workers dumb enough or
desperate enough to be exploited?

You may be on to something. Let's kick out the unions everywhere. No
more admission fees to state fairs, amusement parks, movie theaters,
concerts, plays, boat shows, home shows, car shows, etc. I had no idea
that the only reason admission to all forms of entertainment isn't
completely complimentary was due to the difference between a living
wage and a slave wage. Let them eat stale nachos, I wanna get in free.
:-)

My experience with setting up for boat shows has been that it is the
display companies, not the union laborers, who rape and pillage.
Example: A few shows back I arrived at the booth to find a very, very
short table had been delivered. We had ordered a table with 40" legs so
that one can either stand or sit behind it at various points during the
day. I was looking at something that was too short to sit behind with a
standard chair- let alone a stool- and would have placed our display
far too low for comfortable viewing by show patrons. I went to the show
office and complained, where I was informed that the table delivered to
the booth was exactly what the publisher had requested. It wasn't of
course, but any time there's a monopoly in place- as at a trade show-
you can argue until you are three shades of blue in the face and get
nowhere. I had to agree to pay over $100 to have the table removed and
the proper table delivered, and had to sign a purchase agreement for
that fee at the conclusion of the discussion.

What burned my butt, big time, was when one of the company
representatives showed up at the booth and asked, "Is this the place
that needs the 40-inch table?" When I said yes, the company
representative turned the little table on its side, *extended the
telescoping legs to make it 40-inches high* (!) and said, "Have a nice
show!" No union employee in sight, just an asshole who could have told
me, when I complained, that the legs were adjustable.

When the next show came around, I went out to IKEA and bought a table,
two chairs,
a carpet, etc for just about what Rape and Pillage Display wanted for a
short term rental. We just used that gear for the 4th time in January-
so I guess I have to thank that free enterprise crook who screwed me
out of the hundred bucks for the leg adjustment. That
ripoff incident inspired me to save some money- and the $100 the
company virtually stole from me has cost that outfit close to $1000 in
lost revenue so far.

But you're right about at least one thing if not more. I'm sure the
show display rental companies would be able to keep a bit more of their
unconscionable fees if they could hire a greater number of illegal,
unqualfied, or desperate workers. It's easy for any company or
organization charging obscene prices to blame it on "the unions"- but
in reality boat show display pricing is more the result of absurd
profiteering in a monopolized market.


Welcome back to the darkside Chuck. We knew you would come back. ;-)


Dark side?

I thought we were discussing whether extortionary pricing for boat show
display and setup services was a result of union laborers earning $5-10
an hour more than the guys sent out from rent-the-homeless agencies vs.
display companies charging 5, 10, or 15 times their actual costs (union
or not) for goods and services supplied? :-)

And here I thought you went on a tangent about unions and the market.
Silly me. ;-)

That time of year again!
 

JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..
JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through
Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00.
Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp
It should be free.
It should be free but many of these shows are run by large
exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant
rates. Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all
union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a
union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it
in yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple
forklift delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even
worse, they would put their hand out looking for a tip while
they are on the clock. Pretty sad.
Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a
decent wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?

Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the
International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other
unionized convention centers are the same

BTW: I have all respect for union electricians, plumbers,
laborers, masons, ironworkers and equipment operators, especially
those working construction. But you have to admit that unions
many times (as in the case Dan posted) the same unions take
advantage of circumstances.
How so? The union elecricians work for a contractor. The
contractor has the arrangement with the convention center. The
contractor has negotiated rates with the convention center.
BS. The union, not the contractor, wrote the rules.
Sorry, but virtually all union rates in the construction trades are
the result of negotiations between representatives of the unions and
representatives of the union contractors for whom they work. The
contractor then negotiates his rates with his customers. It's called
collective bargaining.
"Collective bargaining" says it all. The individual either can't
think for himself or can't earn his own wage on his own merit. He
has to be grouped with a variety of worker - good and bad - to get
the same pay, the same raises, the same treatment, etc.

Still sad.
And what was it that you do that's worth $50?
Are you saying that a $50 to plug in an extension cord by a union
electrician at a convention center is fair?
What I am saying is that the worker is not getting paid $50 for that;
the contractor-employer is.

And thus the rub. ;-)

So how do you justify the charge?

I'm not an electrical contractor. I presume he charges a rate that covers
his direct and indirect labor expenses, overhead, and a small profit.


Ah, but the rate is mandated per the contract with the union hall......not
by the contractor. You keep on missing the point Harry. Focus!

So do all contractors have the same direct and indirect labor expenses,
overhead and *small* profit margins? Does it cost each one of them (or any
of them) $50 for their union electrician to plug in an extension cord?
Could this activity safely be done by the exhibitor?


Why does it seem like I am having deja vu for the 1000th time? Is it
possible that this same union vs. non-union discussion has been beat
into the ground more than a 1000 times in rec.boats? Does anyone really
believe the pro union people are going to say, "you know, you are right,
unions are responsible for all that ails America" or the non-union
supporters are going to say "you know, you are right, unions are
responsible for creating a level playing field between workers and
management"?

What does anyone expect to gain from repeating the same discussion one
more time?

--
Reggie
************************************************** *************
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

************************************************** *************

That time of year again!
 

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:11:40 -0500, " JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT
comREMOVETHIS wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On 16 Feb 2006 19:07:59 -0800, wrote:


JimH wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic
control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself
and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Check your bill. That simple forklift delivery was almost certainly
billed to you by the show organizers, not directly by the union. The
difference in the wage paid to a union fork lift operator (maybe $10
for a 15-minute delivery) and an illegal alien doing the same job
(maybe $1.50 for a 15-minute delivery) isn't going to run the bill up
to "hundreds of dollars". If the bill is hundreds of dollars, it's the
show organizers or the display rental company that is profiting. Our
local boat show rentals include basic 15-amp power to the booth and
there is no restriction about plugging in you own
display------------however, if you need more power than 15 amps or
require specialized routing of wires etc there would be additional
charges and it isn't unreasonable to pay a $50 minimum for a skilled
electrician.

Or is it actually your opinion that the difference between a $15/hr
unionized concession stand worker (sellling $600 worth of junk food
with a gross margin of over $500 per hour) and a $5.75/hr "guest
worker" making almost the same sales- but not quite because the mental
translation from Spanish to English takes a moment to do- would mean
that everybody should be able to get into the show free? Are you
really
saying that the only reason there's an admission charge at all is to
cover the difference in cost between workers smart enough to engage in
collective bargaining with management and workers dumb enough or
desperate enough to be exploited?

You may be on to something. Let's kick out the unions everywhere. No
more admission fees to state fairs, amusement parks, movie theaters,
concerts, plays, boat shows, home shows, car shows, etc. I had no idea
that the only reason admission to all forms of entertainment isn't
completely complimentary was due to the difference between a living
wage and a slave wage. Let them eat stale nachos, I wanna get in free.
:-)

My experience with setting up for boat shows has been that it is the
display companies, not the union laborers, who rape and pillage.
Example: A few shows back I arrived at the booth to find a very, very
short table had been delivered. We had ordered a table with 40" legs
so
that one can either stand or sit behind it at various points during
the
day. I was looking at something that was too short to sit behind with
a
standard chair- let alone a stool- and would have placed our display
far too low for comfortable viewing by show patrons. I went to the
show
office and complained, where I was informed that the table delivered
to
the booth was exactly what the publisher had requested. It wasn't of
course, but any time there's a monopoly in place- as at a trade show-
you can argue until you are three shades of blue in the face and get
nowhere. I had to agree to pay over $100 to have the table removed and
the proper table delivered, and had to sign a purchase agreement for
that fee at the conclusion of the discussion.

What burned my butt, big time, was when one of the company
representatives showed up at the booth and asked, "Is this the place
that needs the 40-inch table?" When I said yes, the company
representative turned the little table on its side, *extended the
telescoping legs to make it 40-inches high* (!) and said, "Have a nice
show!" No union employee in sight, just an asshole who could have told
me, when I complained, that the legs were adjustable.

When the next show came around, I went out to IKEA and bought a table,
two chairs,
a carpet, etc for just about what Rape and Pillage Display wanted for
a
short term rental. We just used that gear for the 4th time in January-
so I guess I have to thank that free enterprise crook who screwed me
out of the hundred bucks for the leg adjustment. That
ripoff incident inspired me to save some money- and the $100 the
company virtually stole from me has cost that outfit close to $1000 in
lost revenue so far.

But you're right about at least one thing if not more. I'm sure the
show display rental companies would be able to keep a bit more of
their
unconscionable fees if they could hire a greater number of illegal,
unqualfied, or desperate workers. It's easy for any company or
organization charging obscene prices to blame it on "the unions"- but
in reality boat show display pricing is more the result of absurd
profiteering in a monopolized market.


Welcome back to the darkside Chuck. We knew you would come back. ;-)


Dark side?

I thought we were discussing whether extortionary pricing for boat show
display and setup services was a result of union laborers earning $5-10
an hour more than the guys sent out from rent-the-homeless agencies vs.
display companies charging 5, 10, or 15 times their actual costs (union
or not) for goods and services supplied? :-)

Been there, done that, paid the fees. I have an informed opinion. Yeah,
the display company costs would be less if they could hire all
non-union help, but it would be foolish to expect to see those savings
passed along to the exhibitors. If we're going to have to pay through
the nose, and other orifices, to display at a boat show it's somewhat
gratifying to think that just mayhbe the guy pushing the broom, taking
tickets, or walking around on security patrol won't have to sleep under
a bridge and go dumpster diving for dinner.

Jim's up to his tricks again. He can't seem to learn.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

Learn what Sheriff?


How to keep your knives sharp?

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/details.asp?SKU=698

Here's a way for less than $150.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

That time of year again!
 

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:54:01 -0500, Reggie Smithers
wrote:



Why does it seem like I am having deja vu for the 1000th time? Is it
possible that this same union vs. non-union discussion has been beat
into the ground more than a 1000 times in rec.boats? Does anyone really
believe the pro union people are going to say, "you know, you are right,
unions are responsible for all that ails America" or the non-union
supporters are going to say "you know, you are right, unions are
responsible for creating a level playing field between workers and
management"?

What does anyone expect to gain from repeating the same discussion one
more time?

Good morning, Reggie!
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

That time of year again!
 

Harry Krause wrote:
Reggie Smithers wrote:
JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..
JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in
message ...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs
through Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has
jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or does that seem a
bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp

It should be free.
It should be free but many of these shows are run by
large exhibition companies employing union labor at
exorbitant rates. Traffic control, ticket sales,
security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally
pay a union electrician $50 to plug in your extension
cord. Plug it in yourself and you would be charged the
same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your booth
materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put
their hand out looking for a tip while they are on the
clock. Pretty sad.
Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers
a decent wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?

Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at
the International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am
sure other unionized convention centers are the same

BTW: I have all respect for union electricians, plumbers,
laborers, masons, ironworkers and equipment operators,
especially those working construction. But you have to
admit that unions many times (as in the case Dan posted)
the same unions take advantage of circumstances.
How so? The union elecricians work for a contractor. The
contractor has the arrangement with the convention center.
The contractor has negotiated rates with the convention center.
BS. The union, not the contractor, wrote the rules.
Sorry, but virtually all union rates in the construction
trades are the result of negotiations between representatives
of the unions and representatives of the union contractors for
whom they work. The contractor then negotiates his rates with
his customers. It's called collective bargaining.
"Collective bargaining" says it all. The individual either
can't think for himself or can't earn his own wage on his own
merit. He has to be grouped with a variety of worker - good
and bad - to get the same pay, the same raises, the same
treatment, etc.

Still sad.
And what was it that you do that's worth $50?
Are you saying that a $50 to plug in an extension cord by a union
electrician at a convention center is fair?
What I am saying is that the worker is not getting paid $50 for
that; the contractor-employer is.
And thus the rub. ;-)

So how do you justify the charge?
I'm not an electrical contractor. I presume he charges a rate that
covers his direct and indirect labor expenses, overhead, and a small
profit.

Ah, but the rate is mandated per the contract with the union
hall......not by the contractor. You keep on missing the point
Harry. Focus!

So do all contractors have the same direct and indirect labor
expenses, overhead and *small* profit margins? Does it cost each one
of them (or any of them) $50 for their union electrician to plug in
an extension cord? Could this activity safely be done by the exhibitor?

Why does it seem like I am having deja vu for the 1000th time? Is it
possible that this same union vs. non-union discussion has been beat
into the ground more than a 1000 times in rec.boats? Does anyone
really believe the pro union people are going to say, "you know, you
are right, unions are responsible for all that ails America" or the
non-union supporters are going to say "you know, you are right, unions
are responsible for creating a level playing field between workers and
management"?

What does anyone expect to gain from repeating the same discussion one
more time?



Well, the alternative was to discuss why you insist on keeping your
identity, your home town, your occupation, the kind of boat you have,
and where you boat a deep dark secret.

But, then, that's been discussed at least 1000 times, eh?

:}

It is not a deep dark secret, many people know the answers to all of
your questions, but feel free to discuss whatever, this is a non
moderated NG.

Harry, doesn't it seem silly to do the same battle over and over again.

--
Reggie
************************************************** *************
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

************************************************** *************

That time of year again!
 

Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Show me ONE PIECE of evidence that says you have to hire a union
electrician to plug in an extension cord. All of this urban myth stuff
has gotten everyone in a tizzy, so show some damned proof that that is
the rule.....or quit.

That time of year again!
 

RCE wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:

"Collective bargaining" says it all. The individual either can't think
for himself or can't earn his own wage on his own merit. He has to be
grouped with a variety of worker - good and bad - to get the same pay,
the same raises, the same treatment, etc.

Still sad.

"Collective bargaining" is the only means by which the worker can even
begin to establish a level playing field. Now, there are folks who
don't think anybody except the guy with capital invested in a private
company has any right to any sort of fair or equitable
business/employment climate and that such a capital investment grants a
license to exploit any and all dumb or desperate enough to work for
the firm- and those who feel that way are entitled to do so.

Otherwise, the power of the employer to withhold pay is merely offset
by the power of the collective bargainers to withhold services. Seems
pretty fair to me. One side uses every trick in the book to pay as
little as it can get by with, and the other uses every trick in the
book to get paid as much as it possibly can. Yup, that's fair. Not
exclusively advantageous to management and capital- but fair.

Without collective bargaining, it is the employer, not the worker, who
ignores merit and does not differentiate between good and bad workers.
Without collective bargaining, everybody's job is constantly at risk if
some guy happens along who will whore out for a buck an hour less.



Tried hard to stay out of this, but Chuck, you did me in ...

Where do people like yourself get these concepts and models of business in
your head? The majority of people are employed by small businesses. Every
small business I've ever dealt with or been associated with absolutely do
NOT have the employment philosophies that you describe. Employees who make
themselves valuable through their skills and dedication to their
responsibilities are cherished and rewarded to the max the company can
afford. Conversely, the slackers, assuming they can meet the minimum job
requirements, are not compensated at the same level. Seems fair to me.

The only place in industry where I consistently saw the employees becoming a
"billet" number with no consideration given to individual talent or drive
was in big corporations with a unionized work force.

RCE

Many small businesses are not unionized, but you will typically hear
the owners and management GD'ing unions with the same venom one would
expect from a company that was in the midst of an intense labor
negotiation. The challenge for them is that the unions set the bar.
It's the fear of losing their best employees to a union shop that
forces many employers to pay good wages to top talent. Small business
owners can keep the unions out by paying a living wage, treating
employees fairly, offering competitive benefits, etc. As long as the
SB's offer a decent wage and working environment, the union organizers
will make very little headway among the employees. When a business,
large or small, treats employees poorly then under our labor laws those
employees have the right to organize and bargain collectively for
better wages or conditions. Seems fair to me. :-)

Also fair is the concept that the owners and managers of a business
need to provide an excellent product or service in the marketplace. A
business should succeed because it is briliantly and energetically
managed, not because it can find an unlimited supply of exploitable
labor. When you have the CEO taking $10 million a year and half of the
production workers eligible for food stamps or other public assistance,
there's a problem. In this example, that CEO might complain that a
union shop would "cost him" $1mm a year in increased
wages......(leaving himself only $9mm all in, all done). First guy
fired in such a case should be the CEO, as its his/her job to position
the company and its product as more desirable than the competition.
Superior value is an easier sale, almost always, than questionable
value and a cheap price.

The trade show model is unique. There is no competition. XYZ Display
has the exclusive right to rent backdrops or fixtures and furniture,
and provide other services to exhibitors.
Prices are not set by natural activity in the marketplace, but rather
by an arbitrary guesstimate based upon "How badly can we rip the
exhibitors, who have no other source to turn to, and still fill up the
hall?" In the example we have been using in this thread, charging a
Boat Show exhibitor $100 for 5-minutes labor to plug in an electrical
cord and then blaming the outrageous fee on "union wages" is just crazy
(and hoping to reduce expenses by using cheaper labor when nearly all
of the $100 charge is pure markup to start with is just greedy)-------
but look how many people buy into it! I'm sure the trade show companies
will continue to use the "union wages" dodge as long as it remains
effective.

That time of year again!
 

Reggie Smithers wrote:

Why does it seem like I am having deja vu for the 1000th time? Is it
possible that this same union vs. non-union discussion has been beat
into the ground more than a 1000 times in rec.boats? Does anyone really
believe the pro union people are going to say, "you know, you are right,
unions are responsible for all that ails America" or the non-union
supporters are going to say "you know, you are right, unions are
responsible for creating a level playing field between workers and
management"?

What does anyone expect to gain from repeating the same discussion one
more time?


What's really funny is that certain posters will exclaim with glee that
the unions are losing ground by the day and membership is at an all time
low.....yet they still blame unions for all the ills in the
American/Canadian manufacturing sector.
Seems a lot of power is wielded by a select few.

That time of year again!
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp
It should be free.
It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic
control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself
and you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of
your booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their
hand out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a decent
wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?


Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the
International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other
unionized convention centers are the same
So?

You go to a prime convention center, you want work done, you deal with
the contractors with whom the convention center has contracted. That's
how it is in the real world.


He's not talking about "wanting work done". He's talking about getting
charged $50 for plugging in your own extension cord.




Yes, well, the convention center management sets the rules.

The rules are dictated to them by the union.

That time of year again!
 

wrote in message
oups.com...


Many small businesses are not unionized, but you will typically hear
the owners and management GD'ing unions with the same venom one would
expect from a company that was in the midst of an intense labor
negotiation. The challenge for them is that the unions set the bar.
It's the fear of losing their best employees to a union shop that
forces many employers to pay good wages to top talent. Small business
owners can keep the unions out by paying a living wage, treating
employees fairly, offering competitive benefits, etc. As long as the
SB's offer a decent wage and working environment, the union organizers
will make very little headway among the employees. When a business,
large or small, treats employees poorly then under our labor laws those
employees have the right to organize and bargain collectively for
better wages or conditions. Seems fair to me. :-)


I agree with everything above except for the first sentence. If you don't
mind a correction , most ... not "many" small businesses are non-union and
the subject of unions rarely comes up, so there's no need to GD them. In
30 years of business, we lost one, repeat, one person to a union job and
that was because of the "Big Dig" project in Boston. They needed welders
badly and were recruiting them right out of our shop, meaning they slipped
in the back door and started handing out leaflets. I couldn't blame the
guy - his package was incredible - far more than anything any company, big
or small, could match at the time. Fortunately, of all the welders and fab
people we had he was the only one that decided to go and within a year
regretted it.

RCE

That time of year again!
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp
It should be free.
It should be free but many of these shows are run by large
exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates.
Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union
controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in
yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift
delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they
would put their hand out looking for a tip while they are on the
clock. Pretty sad.
Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a decent
wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?

Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the
International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other
unionized convention centers are the same
So?

You go to a prime convention center, you want work done, you deal with
the contractors with whom the convention center has contracted. That's
how it is in the real world.

He's not talking about "wanting work done". He's talking about getting
charged $50 for plugging in your own extension cord.



Yes, well, the convention center management sets the rules.

The rules are dictated to them by the union.



Yeah, right...a kid dentist living in Naples, Florida, knows how the
"system" works.

There was a time, not long ago, when 35 years old was considered "old". So
thanks for the compliment.

And I know a lot more about the "system" then you'd imagine. I have
friends, relatives, and patients on both sides of the labor/management
aisle, and have discussed with each of them their perspectives on this.


I just find myself agreeing with the management's argument a lot more often.

That time of year again!
 

wrote:
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp

It should be free.
It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Show me ONE PIECE of evidence that says you have to hire a union
electrician to plug in an extension cord. All of this urban myth stuff
has gotten everyone in a tizzy, so show some damned proof that that is
the rule.....or quit.

I have had the same situation in NYC and McCormick Center. It is the
rule at the large Shows in both cities. It is not an urban legend.

No one wants to buck the union and have them screw up your show.

--
Reggie
************************************************** *************
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

************************************************** *************

That time of year again!
 

Don White wrote:
Reggie Smithers wrote:

Why does it seem like I am having deja vu for the 1000th time? Is it
possible that this same union vs. non-union discussion has been beat
into the ground more than a 1000 times in rec.boats? Does anyone
really believe the pro union people are going to say, "you know, you
are right, unions are responsible for all that ails America" or the
non-union supporters are going to say "you know, you are right, unions
are responsible for creating a level playing field between workers and
management"?

What does anyone expect to gain from repeating the same discussion one
more time?


What's really funny is that certain posters will exclaim with glee that
the unions are losing ground by the day and membership is at an all time
low.....yet they still blame unions for all the ills in the
American/Canadian manufacturing sector.
Seems a lot of power is wielded by a select few.
Yes, all problems in the world can be directly blamed on the union and
their members.

--
Reggie
************************************************** *************
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

************************************************** *************

That time of year again!
 

Harry Krause wrote:
Reggie Smithers wrote:
wrote:
Dan Krueger wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp
It should be free.
It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself
and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.
Show me ONE PIECE of evidence that says you have to hire a union
electrician to plug in an extension cord. All of this urban myth stuff
has gotten everyone in a tizzy, so show some damned proof that that is
the rule.....or quit.

I have had the same situation in NYC and McCormick Center. It is the
rule at the large Shows in both cities. It is not an urban legend.

No one wants to buck the union and have them screw up your show.



Once again, if you are an exhibitor, you are dealing with the facility's
management, not the union.
Harry,
You are correct, and we have no way of knowing what the arrangement with
the union and the exhibitor nor the local fire codes. It does make
sense that the fire dept would set up requirements for the exhibitor.

--
Reggie
************************************************** *************
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

************************************************** *************

That time of year again!
 

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..

It is also possible that your convention center's electricians are not
represented by the IBEW.

Having attended and exhibited at many trade shows over the years, the fee
for electrical service is a hourly rate with a one hour minimum,
regardless of how long it actually takes to do the job. The 50 buck fee
being discussed here would apply for wiring in a new service, or plugging
in the cord to an existing one. The requirement on the exhibitor to
utilize the exhibit hall contractor, union or not, is mandated by the
exhibit hall insurance regulations.

I don't mind having to pay for that service.

RCE

Thanks for explaining how it works. It certainly makes more sense now.

That time of year again!
 

NOYB wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
news:85OdneshcK6UtGjenZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@comcast .com...

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:


The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp

It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic
control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself
and you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of
your booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their
hand out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a decent
wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?


Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the
International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other
unionized convention centers are the same

So?

You go to a prime convention center, you want work done, you deal with
the contractors with whom the convention center has contracted. That's
how it is in the real world.


He's not talking about "wanting work done". He's talking about getting
charged $50 for plugging in your own extension cord.




Yes, well, the convention center management sets the rules.


The rules are dictated to them by the union.



Dictated?? I belonged to the largest union in Canada for the first 20
or so years on my working like...serving as local treasurer even
president for a period. We didn't do much 'dictating'....... we mostly
spent our time trying to defend members rights accorded to them in a
contract signed by management.
That's right... management couldn't even follow the conditions they
agreed to. It was constant.

That time of year again!
 

Harry Krause wrote:
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through
Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00.
Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large
exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates.
Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union
controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a
union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it
in yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple
forklift delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even
worse, they would put their hand out looking for a tip while
they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a
decent wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?

Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the
International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other
unionized convention centers are the same

So?

You go to a prime convention center, you want work done, you deal
with the contractors with whom the convention center has
contracted. That's how it is in the real world.

He's not talking about "wanting work done". He's talking about
getting charged $50 for plugging in your own extension cord.



Yes, well, the convention center management sets the rules.


The rules are dictated to them by the union.



Yeah, right...a kid dentist living in Naples, Florida, knows how the
"system" works.

I thought his specialty was how to separate the blue rinse Snowbirds
from their money!

That time of year again!
 

That time of year again!
 

wrote:

JimH wrote:

wrote in message
groups.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:


The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Check your bill. That simple forklift delivery was almost certainly
billed to you by the show organizers, not directly by the union. The
difference in the wage paid to a union fork lift operator (maybe $10
for a 15-minute delivery) and an illegal alien doing the same job
(maybe $1.50 for a 15-minute delivery) isn't going to run the bill up
to "hundreds of dollars". If the bill is hundreds of dollars, it's the
show organizers or the display rental company that is profiting. Our
local boat show rentals include basic 15-amp power to the booth and
there is no restriction about plugging in you own
display------------however, if you need more power than 15 amps or
require specialized routing of wires etc there would be additional
charges and it isn't unreasonable to pay a $50 minimum for a skilled
electrician.

Or is it actually your opinion that the difference between a $15/hr
unionized concession stand worker (sellling $600 worth of junk food
with a gross margin of over $500 per hour) and a $5.75/hr "guest
worker" making almost the same sales- but not quite because the mental
translation from Spanish to English takes a moment to do- would mean
that everybody should be able to get into the show free? Are you really
saying that the only reason there's an admission charge at all is to
cover the difference in cost between workers smart enough to engage in
collective bargaining with management and workers dumb enough or
desperate enough to be exploited?

You may be on to something. Let's kick out the unions everywhere. No
more admission fees to state fairs, amusement parks, movie theaters,
concerts, plays, boat shows, home shows, car shows, etc. I had no idea
that the only reason admission to all forms of entertainment isn't
completely complimentary was due to the difference between a living
wage and a slave wage. Let them eat stale nachos, I wanna get in free.
:-)

My experience with setting up for boat shows has been that it is the
display companies, not the union laborers, who rape and pillage.
Example: A few shows back I arrived at the booth to find a very, very
short table had been delivered. We had ordered a table with 40" legs so
that one can either stand or sit behind it at various points during the
day. I was looking at something that was too short to sit behind with a
standard chair- let alone a stool- and would have placed our display
far too low for comfortable viewing by show patrons. I went to the show
office and complained, where I was informed that the table delivered to
the booth was exactly what the publisher had requested. It wasn't of
course, but any time there's a monopoly in place- as at a trade show-
you can argue until you are three shades of blue in the face and get
nowhere. I had to agree to pay over $100 to have the table removed and
the proper table delivered, and had to sign a purchase agreement for
that fee at the conclusion of the discussion.

What burned my butt, big time, was when one of the company
representatives showed up at the booth and asked, "Is this the place
that needs the 40-inch table?" When I said yes, the company
representative turned the little table on its side, *extended the
telescoping legs to make it 40-inches high* (!) and said, "Have a nice
show!" No union employee in sight, just an asshole who could have told
me, when I complained, that the legs were adjustable.

When the next show came around, I went out to IKEA and bought a table,
two chairs,
a carpet, etc for just about what Rape and Pillage Display wanted for a
short term rental. We just used that gear for the 4th time in January-
so I guess I have to thank that free enterprise crook who screwed me
out of the hundred bucks for the leg adjustment. That
ripoff incident inspired me to save some money- and the $100 the
company virtually stole from me has cost that outfit close to $1000 in
lost revenue so far.

But you're right about at least one thing if not more. I'm sure the
show display rental companies would be able to keep a bit more of their
unconscionable fees if they could hire a greater number of illegal,
unqualfied, or desperate workers. It's easy for any company or
organization charging obscene prices to blame it on "the unions"- but
in reality boat show display pricing is more the result of absurd
profiteering in a monopolized market.


Welcome back to the darkside Chuck. We knew you would come back. ;-)



Dark side?

I thought we were discussing whether extortionary pricing for boat show
display and setup services was a result of union laborers earning $5-10
an hour more than the guys sent out from rent-the-homeless agencies vs.
display companies charging 5, 10, or 15 times their actual costs (union
or not) for goods and services supplied? :-)

Been there, done that, paid the fees. I have an informed opinion. Yeah,
the display company costs would be less if they could hire all
non-union help, but it would be foolish to expect to see those savings
passed along to the exhibitors. If we're going to have to pay through
the nose, and other orifices, to display at a boat show it's somewhat
gratifying to think that just mayhbe the guy pushing the broom, taking
tickets, or walking around on security patrol won't have to sleep under
a bridge and go dumpster diving for dinner.


No, this started with a $50 charge to plug in an extension cord. No
display setup services required, just an extension cord.

Dan

That time of year again!
 

wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:


The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.


Show me ONE PIECE of evidence that says you have to hire a union
electrician to plug in an extension cord. All of this urban myth stuff
has gotten everyone in a tizzy, so show some damned proof that that is
the rule.....or quit.


Got in late today, Kevin? Sorry, no receipts from McCormick place from
seven years ago - it might be more than $50 for a plug in now. Read the
other posts, I'm not the only one. No one else has disputed the fact.
Maybe they have been to trade shows.

That time of year again!
 

Dan Krueger wrote:


""Collective bargaining" is the only means by which the worker can even
begin to establish a level playing field." In what world? What is a
level playing field anyway? If they are good, they get paid well. If
they are lazy or they don't like to report for work on time, they are
gone.

"The power of the employer to withhold pay"? What the hell is that
about. They work 9 hours, they get paid for 9 hours. It's the law, not
a power. There are other jobs out there. If someone is a hard worker
and not getting paid accordingly, there and many employers willing to
compensate them based on their individual merit.

So now every employee needs an agent? This isn't the NFL. When I run
an ad for a driver, for example, there are always at least three dozen
applicants. I choose the best and pay them what they are worth. In
fact, I tend to pay more so they are happy and don't feel like they have
to look for a better job the next day. It pays off in a number of ways:
Less training time & expense, more seasoned employees, solid customer
relationships, etc.

Dan

The way in which any person makes money from employees is by paying the
employee fewer dollars per hour in wages than the employee produces in
value. No secret, and nothing wrong with that in the least. Collective
bargaining allows the workers the opportunity to participate in the
decisions about how much of their productivity will be retained by
management. Nothing wrong with that in the least. If you don't have the
union signing up your truck drivers, it is probably becuase you pay a
fair and competitive wage and treat your employees properly. It's the
disgruntled workers that are susceptible to the siren song of the union
organizer, not the group that's happy and satisfied with current
conditions.

But striking a parallel to the Boat Show Exhibition Services situation:
Let's say you were the only trucking company in town. In fact, your
city council (equivalent to the show sponsor) has informed all the
businesses in town that they are legally required to do business with
your firm and no others if they use any trucking services at all. You
have been paying your truck drivers $35 an hour- but some schmuck from
Local 666 sneaks around the break room and gets everybody to vote in
the union. Now you're paying drivers $45 an hour instead of $35. If you
raise the price for hauling a load of scrap metal
across town from $500 to $1100 (and we'll assume the average driving
time is two hours for this run), it's pretty tough to blame the
increase on "union labor"...........but it's commonly done.

That time of year again!
 

Harry Krause wrote:

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through
Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00.
Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large
exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates.
Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all union
controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a
union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it
in yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple
forklift delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even
worse, they would put their hand out looking for a tip while
they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a
decent wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?

Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the
International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other
unionized convention centers are the same

So?

You go to a prime convention center, you want work done, you deal
with the contractors with whom the convention center has
contracted. That's how it is in the real world.

He's not talking about "wanting work done". He's talking about
getting charged $50 for plugging in your own extension cord.



Yes, well, the convention center management sets the rules.


The rules are dictated to them by the union.



Yeah, right...a kid dentist living in Naples, Florida, knows how the
"system" works.

So where do the unions send their campaign contributions and who owns
the convention centers?

Dictated might not be the correct word, but the result it the same.

That time of year again!
 

wrote in message
ps.com...

Dan Krueger wrote:


""Collective bargaining" is the only means by which the worker can even
begin to establish a level playing field." In what world? What is a
level playing field anyway? If they are good, they get paid well. If
they are lazy or they don't like to report for work on time, they are
gone.

"The power of the employer to withhold pay"? What the hell is that
about. They work 9 hours, they get paid for 9 hours. It's the law, not
a power. There are other jobs out there. If someone is a hard worker
and not getting paid accordingly, there and many employers willing to
compensate them based on their individual merit.

So now every employee needs an agent? This isn't the NFL. When I run
an ad for a driver, for example, there are always at least three dozen
applicants. I choose the best and pay them what they are worth. In
fact, I tend to pay more so they are happy and don't feel like they have
to look for a better job the next day. It pays off in a number of ways:
Less training time & expense, more seasoned employees, solid customer
relationships, etc.

Dan

The way in which any person makes money from employees is by paying the
employee fewer dollars per hour in wages than the employee produces in
value. No secret, and nothing wrong with that in the least. Collective
bargaining allows the workers the opportunity to participate in the
decisions about how much of their productivity will be retained by
management. Nothing wrong with that in the least. If you don't have the
union signing up your truck drivers, it is probably becuase you pay a
fair and competitive wage and treat your employees properly. It's the
disgruntled workers that are susceptible to the siren song of the union
organizer, not the group that's happy and satisfied with current
conditions.


Serenity now.......serenity now.

If I could offer some advice to you Chuck I would suggest you avoid non
boating related topics such as this and keep to boating related topics. I
recall you asking for such a commitment from others here just a month or so
ago.............but hey, I may be mistaken.

I don't think so though. :-)

That time of year again!
 

Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:


The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in yourself
and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.


Show me ONE PIECE of evidence that says you have to hire a union
electrician to plug in an extension cord. All of this urban myth stuff
has gotten everyone in a tizzy, so show some damned proof that that is
the rule.....or quit.


Got in late today, Kevin? Sorry, no receipts from McCormick place
from seven years ago - it might be more than $50 for a plug in now.
Read the other posts, I'm not the only one. No one else has disputed
the fact. Maybe they have been to trade shows.



I doubt you directly hired a union electrician to work on your exhibit
at McCormick.

Not at all. That convention, once billed as the largest in the US, has
move to Las Vegas due to the high costs. These are their words, not mine.

That time of year again!
 

Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through
Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00.
Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large
exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant
rates. Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are all
union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a
union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it
in yourself and you would be charged the same $50. Simple
forklift delivery of your booth materials cost hundreds. Even
worse, they would put their hand out looking for a tip while
they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a
decent wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?

Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the
International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other
unionized convention centers are the same

So?

You go to a prime convention center, you want work done, you deal
with the contractors with whom the convention center has
contracted. That's how it is in the real world.

He's not talking about "wanting work done". He's talking about
getting charged $50 for plugging in your own extension cord.



Yes, well, the convention center management sets the rules.


The rules are dictated to them by the union.


Yeah, right...a kid dentist living in Naples, Florida, knows how the
"system" works.


So where do the unions send their campaign contributions and who owns
the convention centers?

Dictated might not be the correct word, but the result it the same.



Got any documentation aside from your demonstrated hatred of workers'
rights?

Worker's rights? If they work, they get paid. If they don't, they get
fired. If they can get a better job, they do. What other rights do they
have or need in a democracy?

That time of year again!
 

That time of year again!
 

Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

JimH wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:

The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through
Sunday. Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $
10.00. Is it just me..or does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large
exhibition companies employing union labor at exorbitant
rates. Traffic control, ticket sales, security, etc. are
all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay
a union electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord.
Plug it in yourself and you would be charged the same $50.
Simple forklift delivery of your booth materials cost
hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand out looking
for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.

Poor Dan. He had to pay a contractor who paid his workers a
decent wage with benefits.

What do *you* do that's worth $50?

Dan speaks the truth Harry. That is the way it goes at the
International Exposition Center in Cleveland. I am sure other
unionized convention centers are the same

So?

You go to a prime convention center, you want work done, you
deal with the contractors with whom the convention center has
contracted. That's how it is in the real world.

He's not talking about "wanting work done". He's talking about
getting charged $50 for plugging in your own extension cord.



Yes, well, the convention center management sets the rules.


The rules are dictated to them by the union.


Yeah, right...a kid dentist living in Naples, Florida, knows how
the "system" works.


So where do the unions send their campaign contributions and who
owns the convention centers?

Dictated might not be the correct word, but the result it the same.



Got any documentation aside from your demonstrated hatred of workers'
rights?


Worker's rights? If they work, they get paid. If they don't, they
get fired. If they can get a better job, they do. What other rights
do they have or need in a democracy?




Hahahahohohohehehe

Back to the middle ages we go.


Funny? How?

That time of year again!
 

Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:


The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic
control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in
yourself and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.


Show me ONE PIECE of evidence that says you have to hire a union
electrician to plug in an extension cord. All of this urban myth stuff
has gotten everyone in a tizzy, so show some damned proof that that is
the rule.....or quit.

Got in late today, Kevin? Sorry, no receipts from McCormick place
from seven years ago - it might be more than $50 for a plug in now.
Read the other posts, I'm not the only one. No one else has
disputed the fact. Maybe they have been to trade shows.



I doubt you directly hired a union electrician to work on your
exhibit at McCormick.


Not at all. That convention, once billed as the largest in the US,
has move to Las Vegas due to the high costs. These are their words,
not mine.



Las Vegas is one of the strongest union towns in the United States.

Guess the politicians aren't walking around with their hands out in Vegas.

That time of year again!
 

Harry Krause wrote:
Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

wrote:

Dan Krueger wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:

Don White wrote:


The local boat show starts at noon today and runs through Sunday.
Newspaper says admission fee has jumped to $ 10.00. Is it just
me..or
does that seem a bit excessive?
http://www.masterpromotions.ca/halif...-boat-show.asp


It should be free.

It should be free but many of these shows are run by large exhibition
companies employing union labor at exorbitant rates. Traffic
control,
ticket sales, security, etc. are all union controlled.

I have attended shows where you would have to literally pay a union
electrician $50 to plug in your extension cord. Plug it in
yourself and
you would be charged the same $50. Simple forklift delivery of your
booth materials cost hundreds. Even worse, they would put their hand
out looking for a tip while they are on the clock. Pretty sad.


Show me ONE PIECE of evidence that says you have to hire a union
electrician to plug in an extension cord. All of this urban myth stuff
has gotten everyone in a tizzy, so show some damned proof that that is
the rule.....or quit.

Got in late today, Kevin? Sorry, no receipts from McCormick place
from seven years ago - it might be more than $50 for a plug in now.
Read the other posts, I'm not the only one. No one else has
disputed the fact. Maybe they have been to trade shows.



I doubt you directly hired a union electrician to work on your
exhibit at McCormick.


Not at all. That convention, once billed as the largest in the US,
has move to Las Vegas due to the high costs. These are their words,
not mine.



Las Vegas is one of the strongest union towns in the United States.


Oh my! That Dan loves to shovel the c*ap. Thanks for catching him on
that one.

That time of year again!
 

Dan Krueger wrote:


Collective bargaining fails when all workers, good and bad, are treated
equal.

What prevents you from paying your top people more than the union
minimum?
If the employees are all treated "equally" regardless of merit, that's
a decision made by the employer, not the union.